Hex_Llama
Hex_Llama
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- Hex_Llama
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I'm also excited for this. I think the rationale behind all the changes made sense and I'm looking forward to seeing it all in action. 8 months also sounds like a pretty normal timeframe to make these kinds of changes, IMO. It's not like one person can just go, "Hey, what if we did this?" and put it in the game.
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I'm more or less okay with DS staying the way it is, but I'm interested in the discussion. What if successfully using DS gave you a deep wound, like using Borrowed Time or whatever, so that you had to get out of chase and scuttle off somewhere to mend yourself?
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Yeah, this would feel awkward to me, too. It's because letting them meme with you sends a signal that you're going to be super chill and killing them immediately sends the opposite signal -- so you feel like you lured them into a false sense of security.
If you feel weird, one solution is to not let them do it at all, unless you're in a situation where you're definitely not going to kill them -- like, if they're already in the exit gates and you're letting them go. Another solution is to decide ahead of time that you have a policy, like one person gets to do it once, and then no more memes. Then, you don't have to decide on a case-by-case basis -- you can just follow your policy each time.
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I'm definitely in the "slugs are less deadly than hooks" camp. When I slug people as killer, often part of what I'm thinking is that it gives them an extra chance to get picked up instead of being dead. When I get slugged as survivor, I often think the same thing -- and often it works out that way. Someone comes and picks me up, and then I'm not dead.
That said, I don't run DS as survivor or deliberately leave people on the ground to avoid DS as killer. I can understand how it would be frustrating if you ran an anti-tunneling perk, and then you still got tunneled, but, instead of being able to use your perk, the killer just stared at you while you were on the ground so they could wait for your DS to run out.
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@Kolonite said:
Most of us have been in your exact same position. There's a positive about going against people that far outclass you. You're going to get better at the game much faster than you would if you were going against survivors on your skill level. If you aren't enjoying yourself taking a break is great though. If you recently got the game and don't have many perks I'd recomend watching a video that Not Otzdarva released recently. It's called "What Killer & Survivor should you get first? | Dead by Daylight"
I honestly think people improve faster when they're matched with opponents close to their own skill level. It's true that you want to have a challenge, but it needs to be a challenge that you could possibly succeed at. If the challenge is so hard that you have no chance, the difficulty level is too high to learn very much.
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One of my first survivor games, I was a Dwight with one perk, and my perk was Bond. I followed my teammates around all match blowing skill checks and making them heal me. When it came time to open the door, I understood that people sometimes stand behind the person who opens the door, but I didn't really understand why. So, I stood behind a Meg and then the Clown came and threw a bottle at us, and I moved so the bottle wouldn't hit me, and she got interrupted opening the door. After a scramble where we both almost died, the Meg managed to save us, and I (coincidentally) got a map achievement called "Classy Act."
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It's a little bit campy in that you resist being led away from the hook, but it doesn't feel especially hostile to me.
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I think it would be interesting to watch a tournament where people play a vanilla version of the game with no perks/items/add-ons.
For regular play, though, I don't understand the idea that the purest, most authentic, best way to play would be to opt out of one of the main features by not using perks. If the perks allow you to win, then... that is their purpose, is it not? If you want to call them a crutch, then you can call literally any other part of the game a crutch. Using pallets is a crutch. Kicking generators is a crutch. 360s are a crutch. The killer's special ability is a crutch.
If specific perks don't feel balanced, that's a fair thing to discuss, but it doesn't make sense to me to arbitrarily decide that anybody "should" be able to win without using part of the game.
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Nurse literally gives me a migraine, so I can't play her. I can't even watch videos of other people playing Nurse. I won't play Deathslinger, because I don't like shooting games. I wish I could play Huntress, but it's so hard to learn.
On the survivor side, I hate Jake for no rational reason and, if I have to play him for a daily or something, I make him wear his worst outfit to balance it out.
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Prior to EGC, I got taken hostage by a survivor who refused to leave the map when the game was over. I couldn't catch him, so I was just stuck there.
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I've never thought about it before, but I like this idea. What I like about it is that it doesn't prevent people from taking their traps off early, or necessarily make them harder to take off -- it just adds a cost for doing it, in that you might have to do it repeatedly.
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For the first year I had the game, I could only play killer, because survivor made me anxious. Recently, I switched to mostly playing survivor. It turns out that, now that I understand what's going on, how the maps are laid out, what the normal game flow is, etc, survivor is a much more relaxed and peaceful way to play.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1637297#Comment_1637297
Here we go again:
SWF was always planned for the game. Yes, it was not a part when the game first launched, but only because they only had time to include one mode - either SWF or KYF. They went for KYF. SWF was not introduced because DBD got reviewbombed or Survivors complained. It was planned from the beginning.
And, lets face it - a game where people play online together in a team without an option to play with friends? In 2016? Come on.
Also, disagree that Killers have to sweat their balls off. Mine are fine.
I don't know what the original plans for SWF were, but the way it was implemented in the game didn't include voice chat, and I think it's the voice chat -- which is happening outside the game -- that makes SWF a problem for balance. I honestly don't think there would be any problem with four survivors who happen to know each other and have a plan ahead of time but can't actually communicate during the match.
The problem is that BHVR has allowed people to use 3rd party comms for so long, and it's become such an established part of the experience, that I don't see any realistic way to roll that back -- so now it's just part of the game, whether it was intended to be or not. That's why I think a more realistic solution is to limit SWF to two people in public matches, and let people shift their meme games over to KYF/Custom Game/whatever it's called nnow.
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The longest break I took was 3-4 months, after going against a toxic SWF group. They tried to CJ tech but they messed up the timing and kept taking hits. I didn't know what CJ tech was, so I just thought they were really bad, and I decided to let them pick themselves up so we could actually play instead of slugging them all in the first two minutes. They responded by luring me into an ambush where they ran in a circle and locker-stunned me, crouched in my blind spot when I tried to use a window, shined their flashlights in my face, t-bagged, etc for absolutely no game-related purpose. They literally just did it to be mean, immediately after I was nice to them. It sucked.
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Pig and Pyramid Head are both fun for me.
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@Deadeye said:
Just one question. If you don't find out in lobby (like it is currently possible by checking friendlist) how are you able to claim that it was an SWF that ruined your killer game?
Just saying, if it was a flashlight save, it was not necessarily an SWF. If it was bodyblocking, it was not necessarily SWF. If someone cleansed a totem and you did not notice anyone seeing it except one survivor, it is not necessarily SWF.
Just saying
I think you're right that people overestimate how many SWF groups they're going against, and that we can't always know for sure. But there are times you can tell, and it's especially easy to tell when they're being toxic, because they swarm you as a group for the whole entire match, in a way that solo players would never do.
Honestly, I think the more toxic and aggressive the SWF is, the easier it is to know for sure that they're SWF, and that might be part of the reason SWF has such a bad reputation. If we could see who was SWF and who wasn't, it might reveal that there are lots of SWF we never knew about who play a normal game.
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- SWF lets you play with one friend and enter public matches as a pair, not a group of three or four people.
- Game health chapter, as we're calling it.
- A matchmaking system that creates balanced matches most of the time.
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I've never intentionally disconnected from a match. I sometimes let myself die on hook (ie, stop struggling prematurely) when we're near the end of the game and it's obvious that, even if my one remaining teammate saves me, all that will happen is that we both die immediately, after.
I've definitely been in a couple of matches I should have d/ced from because they were so toxic -- like, in a serious way, it would have been better for my mental health to disconnect -- so I think people should be able to leave a match if they need to, but I also think the system should discourage people from randomly surfing through matches until they find one they like, or bailing because they already failed their rift challenge or whatever. To me, part of playing a multiplayer game is that you have to think about what's respectful to the other people who agreed to play with you.
TL;DR I think the progressive time-out system is fine, if they stabilize the game and it doesn't crash or disconnect on its own very often. I also support having bigger rewards for the players who actually stay after a d/c, or letting them d/c without penalty for a certain period of time.
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I'm not really opposed to this idea, but I agree that it's a huge change to the core mechanics of the game -- both in terms of taking people on and off hooks, and in terms of the loose, slippery play style that we all like and hate about DBD.
I admit, one of the things I enjoy about Pyramid Head is that, supposing everyone's tormented, getting a down = getting a hook and no one can mess it up for you. And there's a part of me that's like, "Yeah, that's how it should always be." When I go against Pyramid Head, as survivor, I also always hope to get sent to the cage, because then I know I'm far away from the killer and I'm definitely getting a safe rescue. Also the cage struggle mechanic is better.
From a gameplay POV, I wouldn't mind at all if things somehow changed so that that was the default way of doing things, and I think many of the perks that currently work with hooks could just work with cages instead.
That said, I can think of a few objections that I'd have if I were on the dev team -- the biggest one being that I think they actually want things to go a little wild and crazy when killers are carrying survivors to a hook and/or survivors are trying to get a save. I don't think the game they envision is an orderly process where everyone gets hooked immediately after they go down, and the cycle repeats three times for each person. I think they want opportunities for people to do something risky and daring.
The other big objection is that so much of the game content is built around the idea that being downed is not an automatic hook -- like all of the perks that affect slugging, all of the perks that affect carrying, sabo boxes, flashlight saves -- it's a ton of stuff that they've already put a lot of work into.
I agree that the loose play between the time someone goes down and the time they get saved from the hook often doesn't feel super fair to me, and I think you're right to say it's the source of most of the complaints about the game. I just also feel like what we're identifying is an intentional feature of the game -- a pocket of time where anything can happen no matter how annoying, and even though I think the game might be less aggravating if some of that was removed, I'm not sure it would still be the game the developers wanted to make?
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If I had one wish for this game, it would be to turn Survive with Friends into Survive with A Friend -- so you can have a partner but not a whole squad. That's very easy for me to say, because I only play killer and solo queue, so I'd be losing nothing, and it would greatly improve my experience on both sides.
I don't think we'll ever have the ability to dodge SWF, or that SWF will ever totally go away, because it's become a staple of how BHVR markets the game -- friends getting their friends to play, streamers playing with other streamers, etc.
When I first started playing, it was definitely frustrating to realize that the way the game's actually played is a lot different than how it sounds like it's going to be. Now, I just kind of assume that, if one person sees my totem, everyone immediately knows where it is. And, if one person has Object, everyone knows where I am for the whole rest of the game. That's not how it's supposed to be, and it still feels unfair, but there we are.
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I will also go against consensus and say that I don't think Corrupt is that good of a perk. To be fair, I'm not playing at a level where every second matters, but, in my purple rank life, it's never done very much to my game.
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I used to play ultra late night / early morning killer games, and the survivors I matched with would get toxic around midnight, like Cinderella coming home from the ball. I think it's true that the casual players log off at a certain point and you're left with a lot of people who are in a weird mood.
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Deathslinger is the only one I really dislike. I normally don't play gun games, because I don't like pretending to either shoot people or get shot -- and one of the things I liked about DBD is that it's more of a hack and slash kind of violence. I appreciate that a harpoon gun is a little more fanciful than a normal gun, but it still sounds the same when it goes off.
More superficially, I also don't like Leatherface because he makes that awful braying donkey sound when he uses his chainsaw, and it just makes me angry for reasons I can't explain.
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My advice would be not to follow people back to Twitch. I watch and like some DBD streamers (ones who are generally more polite) but, when people give commentary on a game as they're playing it, the commentary is rarely, "Wow, everyone else is doing great!" And the worse they are are the game themselves, the less generous they seem to want to be.
In general, I wish more streamers would hide people's usernames when they broadcast their games. If someone didn't consent to being in your video -- especially one that you're monetizing -- protecting their identity seems like the least you can do.
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I almost always run self-care. If there's someone around who wants to heal me, I let them heal me, but there isn't always someone there and I don't want to lug a medkit into every game.
I think the issue is less that there's something wrong with the perk and more that priorities can shift at different times in a match, and it can be frustrating to feel like your teammates aren't prioritizing what you want them to. I mean, I've chased people half way around the map before saying, "Let me heal you, Dwight. Why do you want to die, Dwight? Let me heal you," before watching them get downed again. And I've also watched someone sit on a gen while I went to stage two, and only start running when it was too late to save me. Watching them self-care at a moment I wanted them to do something else can also be frustrating, but we all get to make our own choices.
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@SnakeSound222 said:
This just reinforces my belief that the Archive team has a very little understanding of the game. They keep creating challenges that can easily be denied by the other side DCing, require you to use broken mechanics (ex. two gen grabs in one game with Discordance), or are unfun for whatever reason (requires you to play bad, needs the stars to align for you to complete it, etc). This Devout challenge can easily be denied by DCing, forcing yourself to go the next hook stage, or being hyper aggressive on gens.
I don't even try for the grab ones, because almost all my grabs get cancelled. They don't even turn into a hit anymore, just a confusing half-animation that leaves me disoriented while the survivor runs away.
However, I do kind of wonder if the challenges are an experiment, sometimes. (And I think it would be fine if they were). Like, maybe they need data about how a particular action or perk is working, so the challenge encourages everybody to do that action or use that perk during a certain window of time.
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I'm confused. Is DS only bugged against some killers? And is the question, "Is it bad to deliberately play a killer DS is bugged against?"
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The bullying is it's own thing, but I think right now it's hard to learn the specialized killers if you don't already play them, because you get matched with people who have thousands of hours in the game while you're still trying to learn what your buttons do. This is why I still hope the MMR system gets working and the devs do the thing they talked about where you can get matched with lower ranks for a killer you're not good at.
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If you get to keep your hex, Huntress Lullaby + Dying Light can be a good combo. Every time you get a hook, it gets a little harder to do a gen.
I also like Discordance + Tinkerer in that it lets me chase people off the most dangerous gens -- ie, gens that more than one person is working on, or that are almost finished.
I used to run Surveillance a lot, but I found that it encouraged me to be Gen Protector Killer and I got less kills.
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I think the Ebony Mori kind of makes sense as designed, but the experience playing against it is different. If it truly were a rare event, then it wouldn't be a big deal. As survivor, though, you can get stuck in a loop where you play back-to-back-to-back games where everyone dies on second hook, and it gets frustrating.
@GhostyyBoi said:
I've said this a lot, but moris should be usable on death hook.
I had that thought, too, but the problem I see with that solution is that it wouldn't offer much advantage to the killer. They would get to watch a gross animation, if that's the main thing they want, and they wouldn't have to carry on the final hook, but I think, from a strategic standpoint, the main reason to use a mori is that you only need two downs instead of three. So, if we took that way, it would be kind of pointless.
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When I started playing survivor, I was surprised by how slow and boring the gen repairs felt, because the gens seemed to pop so fast when I was killer. I agree that just slowing them down more isn't really the answer.
As someone who's bad at both sides, I think the match often gets decided around the time the third gen pops, and whoever has the upper hand at that point tends to keep it unless they make a mistake.
If you're looking for a solution where there's more of a chance for reversal in the last half of the game, I don't think universal buffs or nerfs would do that -- I think you'd want more of a dynamic response where whoever's losing at the midpoint gets a buff. In that case, though, the game becomes less strategic and more free-wheeling. I'd be okay with that, since I think the game's more fun when it's a little random, but I know a lot of people would hate it.
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I think it's true that there are some people who just want to say mean stuff in the chat and they'll say mean stuff in the chat no matter what you do. If you win, they say mean stuff about how you won. If you lose, they say mean stuff about how you lost. There's literally no game you could play that would satisfy those people because they're angry about stuff that has nothing to do with the game, and they're just using the game as an excuse to yell at a stranger.
It's also true that reasonable people can disagree about what is or isn't fair play in a video game -- though they shouldn't express that disagreement in an abusive way.
I think you're setting yourself up to feel bad if your goal is that everybody else has to be happy with the way you played. I think you have to be happy with the way you played, and base your assessment on something other than strangers' opinions.
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I don't think its okay to be rude to people who are playing a computer game with you, but the original question in this thread was more about modifying the way you play so that other people have fun.
I don't think you should make yourself lose so that everyone else has a good time, but I do think that the main point of playing a game with other people is for all of you to have fun. And I'll confess that I didn't always believe that when I was young, but now I'm old, and I think things like "Everyone deserves a chance to get some points," and "It's more fun if we all get to play," and "This guy has had a rough game; I don't need to body block him from his only hook."
At the same time, some of the most unpleasant games I've ever had have been ones where, in the early game, I went out of my way to be considerate of the people I was playing against and, in the late game, they went out of their way to troll me. It feels really bad when that happens, but I don't think the answer is for me to troll, too.
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It depends on the situation. If it's safe to heal in the basement -- like, if we have a sense of where the killer is and it's not basement, and/or the person doing the healing has perks or items that make the healing go fast, I think it's better to heal first so you can take the extra hit if something goes wrong.
I've lingered in the basement lots of times without anything bad happening, but it's a gamble either way.
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I think it works and makes sense as an anti-tunneling perk, but, because there are some situations where tunneling is fair, it has the potential to feel like it's cheating you out of a hook you earned.
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It's bad for your keyboard/controller to hammer the same button over and over, and it also doesn't seem to be reliable. Currently I'm using a method where I literally set down my controller and struggle with the mouse wheel so I don't have to break my stuff, but I'd love to just do skill checks instead.
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I think the developers actually make a good effort to promote parts of the community that aren't toxic. The outstanding issue for me, and the one that people keep mentioning in this thread is in-game behaviour, including end of game chat.
If you played a board game with a bunch of people in person and you tried your hardest to make sure that no one had fun, and then you verbally abused them all when it was over, there would be negative consequences for you. You probably wouldn't get invited to play more games, and it would hurt your relationship with the people involved. They would remember, and you'd end up with a reputation as that guy who got really crazy and mean during Monopoly.
In DBD, currently, if you ruin the game for everyone else and call them names in the chat, nothing happens to you. Those people get hurt, but they probably won't remember your username, and you can change your username, and they can't block you, and you might never match with them again anyway, and you don't know them, and they have no influence over your life outside the game, and reputation isn't really a thing. So it's a situation where, if you don't have an internal compass that tells you to be empathetic and polite, the external pressures that would normally encourage good sportsmanship aren't in place.
I would like to see DBD come up with some kind of system that rewards people for being good sports -- like, something that that useless thumbs up button can do -- but it's hard to think of something that couldn't be abused. I don't think it should be considered an unsolvable problem, though -- and I don't think we should just accept that this is a space where anyone can say anything to anyone and there are no social repercussions.
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Aw, man. What you're describing is exactly what happened to me when I started playing last year. Like, every detail, including being followed around the map by that one Nea, and trolled by people who should be a lot more sportsmanlike. I also came into this thinking it was a friendly game where I was facilitating an experience. I also was frustrated that I didn't even get to play, and had no opportunity to learn.
I know that hearing everybody say, "That's normal -- onboarding for this game is really rough, and the people are mean," doesn't help. But the onboarding is really rough, and the people are mean. It's not something you're doing wrong.
If I'm being 100% honest, I played killer on and off for a year, and then I switched to mostly survivor because I left so many killer games feeling sweaty and hounded. Like, I got a lot better at the game during that year, and you will, too, but the feeling of constantly getting fed to red ranks SWF never truly went away.
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Okay, cool, but I'm one of your bad teammates and I don't know how to save when the killer is camping. How do you do it?
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I'll camp the general hook area during EGC, especially if it's been a rough match and I don't have any kills. Also, one time I face-camped a Jake who trolled me all game, just to make sure he died. Everyone else escaped through the exit ten feet away, and it was worth it.
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I mean, I would use it, so I can get my points, but I'd feel like it was less useful.
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I picked the underground complex because I feel like I can sort of keep track of where I am, and I don't suddenly run into a wall I'm not expecting, and it's brightly lit so I can see where I'm going. Also there's a cage full of rats.
I find the indoor maps tough in either role, since I'm used to navigating based on landmarks, and you can't see landmarks indoors.
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Same. I'm on Steam/PC and can't hear a heartbeat on anyone -- just an orchestra swell when we go into chase, by which point they're almost right on top of me. In one game, I thought I heard a very faint sound that MIGHT have been a heartbeat or might have been my headphones brushing my ear -- it was so quiet I literally couldn't be sure. In that case, the killer was maybe 10m away, but didn't have LOS. I thought they were a Nea at first, because I couldn't hear a terror radius.
I spectated a few times after I was killed, and, without the distraction of trying to play, I was able to hear a very, very quiet heartbeat sometimes, but it's almost impossible to detect.
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I had this exact problem when I started playing.
One practical suggestion is to try playing at different times of day and see if maybe there's a time block in your region where you get better matches with people closer to your rank/skill level. It took me a few months to realize I was playing on hard mode because I only logged in at off-peak hours.
IMO, build doesn't matter as much as being good at chase, so another tip is to try to identify when you should drop a chase -- like, if a particular survivor seems really good at juking, or seems to be trying to get you to chase them, or seems to know where every single pallet is and runs directly between them, etc. It's fine to abandon that survivor and go after someone else.
My last tip is to strategically slug people if you don't want to tunnel them. A slug is almost as good as a hook in terms of how much pressure it puts on the survivors, and what a time suck it is to deal with, so, if you slug the person who just got unhooked and chase the one who unhooked them, you can still draw people away from the gens without the negatives of tunneling. (But, for the record, I think that if you're a yellow matching with reds, you can tunnel one of them if you want to).