Halloulle
Halloulle
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question is in how far it had a meaningful impact on the match
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641673#Comment_3641673
But A. How would we now already know that that is the case? All we have is different people from different skill brackets with more or less of an idea what to do against Billy, I don't see a reason yet to think there is an issue to begin with. What do you mean by a similar result here? There are big differences between a 4k and a 4k,if you are only looking at the result you are missing the important part of how we got there.
And B. Even if that was the case why exactly would it be an issue? We have skill based matchmaking... If you have never touched Billy before your MMR is somewhat in the middle if you have played other killers to a higher mmr (as far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong here) so just because you as a beginner are able to 4k against mid survivors does not mean this is the same result as for example Hens who does the same thing... Just because you got the same result does not mean anything.
Other than that I don't really get your point about perks and addons here, because what you are describing is basically what they are for... Game delay perks are for you to have more time to get a down... Addons usually improve your power to either give you hits where you would not get them with basekit or enable different strategies to be viable.
As for the next example of Billy will catch up and you cannot get away... Yes that is generally a thing with high mobility killers... However the point is you don't need to leave the loop... You can still loop it... If the Billy is trying to curve you there you can still outplay him by going wide or going close, it just that you have a higher density of chase interaction, if you like it or not is something else, but I don't think that's a bad thing... The same thing applies to other killers, Nemesis, Alien, Deaths linger and so on... All killers with an anti loop power with a rather short cooldown, often times you won't be able to leave the loop unless they had to break the pallet or one is really close by, however you can still use the current loop until they are forced to break the pallet...
I mean monitoring something is not necessarily a bad thing... However if this is an issue that is worth being monitored that closely then so are many other things... And I don't think the system is supposed to address such a wide range of things ^^
Homie is going all out on something as if it was a huge issue or a debate - when it is neither.
Feedback is where you give an opinion, an impression, anything really is possible. That's all I did here. Is it worth monitoring? I don't know. I kinda expect devs to monitor the overall vibe. - If a lot of people have the same impression of Billy then maybe the sheer amount of people of the non-henses who just don't have a remotely decent match experience is the reason why the devs take notice / why they take a look at how Billy fares when going against various skill brackets. - Sure, 3k vs the non-henses and 0k against the henses still averages out above the desired killrate... but that's not how it works (I hope, anyhow ^^).
Either way - I think all points have been made and going on about it doesn't actually serve a purpose that fits the feedback thread. If in doubt: agree to disagree. - Have a good one 🤗
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641482#Comment_3641482
But Billy still gets slowed down when revving the saw, what you are describing seems more like newer players trying to learn how to use the saw and overusing it? I don't see any problem with that?
Before the rework Billy was the hardest killer in the game and probably in the bottom third of killers when it comes to strength, and now he is a really good killer, like top third, and people want to learn him I guess? It is kind of fair... The amount of training you had to put into Billy for that little strength was quite out of balance...
The issue with that is; if learning the killer yields nearly as good of a result as playing well, something is probably off. If it's a certain build (where a killer should reasonably lose a match simply because it takes them too long to down a surv that way - but certain perk combos still allow it or where a killer should miss with the M2 but thanks to some add-ons it's kinda inconsequential) or if it's once again down to maps (it's all good and well that billy needs one more lap to catch up - but that doesn't mean a surv has any chance to get away; they stay on the loop billy catches up eventually, they leave the loop they will get downed and even baiting doesn't help because even with the penalty from missing the situation doesn't actually change).
And just so that we're on the same page: I'm not saying that Billy is overtuned or in a bad spot - just that the changes to him have lead - for one reason or the other - to a certain game experience that I wouldn't exactly describe as fun. This is a feedback threaad and this is also feedback. - It's a way of asking the devs to look into the causes of that situation.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641230#Comment_3641230
I don't really see how that is something new to Billy in the sense of it being something that is only possible because of the changes?
Like I said; I don't know Billy well enough to put my finger on it. - But it is a new experience. The Billies I'm used to seeing had a certain kind of dedication about them and were usually rewarded for their Billy specific knowledge. - They couldn't follow you around a tile like a lost puppy with a readied chainsaw. But that's what I'm seeing a lot ever since new Billy went live.
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I see Twins maybe once every two months (with ~60-100 hrs/month) and it's a sh* show one way or the other; on the one hand people have no clue what to do because they never see them (I don't know much myself either, just some basics surrounding what to do with victor; when to keep, when to crush and where to go) - but on the other hand Twins players too seem to really enjoy the victor slug/camping style. Which neither helps you learning how to deal with them - nor makes you interested in facing (or playing) them. People just nope out of it.
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I don't know Billy well enough to put my finger on it exactly - but all the matches I had during the past couple days were pretty much rinse and repeat: Bam window if there is a window to bam. Then walk down surv with ready-to-go-chainsaw until they're sniffing up your butt and down them (or eat a pallet if there's still a pallet left).
Like I said, I don't know if it's up to the addons they got or something else - but it hasn't exactly felt... inspired or exciting.
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I don't dodge - though I would understand dodging if you got someone with a public profile, you look at the profile and you don't want to be associated with that person in any way. - That could also be because the profile contains links to social media and there you find things that make you want to not have any contant, however brief, with that person. Those are also the people I usually promptly block just to prevent future match ups.
The other reason: you just made it to match lobby and the phone rings, the doorbell rings - that kinda stuff. But that's not really dodging, I guess.
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While cleaning up the UI is probably a good thing - especially considering there will be more elements in the future - I would like that to happen without an obligatory additional click.
Assuming that the standard way of playing the game is to either play default killer or default survivor you have to first click away the news site, just to then have to klick "Play" and then again to choose killer or survivor. That's an awful lot of clicks.
Personally, I'd prefer a tab-style kinda thing: If there are different modes/events/whatever they show on the top as tabs. Based on which you klick the menu screen changes. - That could either just be the left; all the things available in that game mode get shown. "public matches killer", "public matches survivor", "kill your friends" (imagine the "lights out" modifier was also available in kyf during the event time) - "tome [number]" OR "event tome" etc pp.
And the stuff that's always available; the archives, tutorial, store and rituals could have clearly visible buttons on the bottom, kinda like the old menu screen --- maybe not quite as large.
But yeah, possible alternatives aside: unnecessary clicks are infuriating and I actually hate it.
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Afaik for new killers the starting point MMR / the adjustment is heavily influenced by your overall killer MMR. - For old killers it's just MMR decay.
As for bots; I'd go with all the bots, remove two and then just focus on getting the mechanics right before heading into pubs.
Alternatively, there's always "come shack 1v1" --- If you were EU I could point you to a server/to some people to practise with but alas.
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He may need an add-on pass to adjust the time between chainsaws - that's the one thing where the only counter I see atm is "kek just don't be in 90% of the tiles available on the map, ez". - Other than that I suppose it's mostly adjusting; quite a few tiles that used to be safe against Billy aren't anymore, if Billy has some idea about what they're doing. Which leads to a lot of frustrating experiences.
I'd give it a couple weeks and then I suppose we see how much of an impact the Billy changes really have.
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Probably either a white glyph or green glyphs
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I suppose dbd is just introducing the concept of "half time" that is known from sports. fourth person goes to hook? Time for the obsession to find a locker. - And time for everyone else to go explore edgemap while crouched. Maybe some cheeky people decide to take a lil nap in basement?
Though, personally, I probs gonna take that combo as a cue to go find a killer, practise some chase and go next sooner rather than later - preferrably without even touching a gen. - But ifr someone else finds the killer first I suppose I will until they get downed.
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Personally, I find the nods pre-chase a bit irritating - espcially the one-nods. The excessive nods paired with some goofy outfit make me chuckle tho; it's a 50:50 if that surv is gonna be toxic af or just gonna goof around. - Now, the mid-chase-one-nods; at a window/when taking a break from mindgaming that pallet/window again or something like that I view more as a "yo - wassup? Feel like we know each other at this point" I usually do sth goofy back.
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I use pop as well. - Though I do think it can get abiguous when the call is "he's gonna pop the gen" ; he a male surv who's completing the gen or he the killer who is applying pgtw? On comms you usually know the context - but in written form I can see how being more specific is being on the safe side.
same for stbfl. I say save on comms but use stbfl outside the match, especially in writing.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633584#Comment_3633584
I wasn't doing kicks, was doing surges. Maybe you aren't aware of how the new system works - you lose charges every regression event, that means eruption, surge, and so on. It's NOT just kicks as you presume. Also, survivors have perks that can counter a pickup. That isn't the killer "messing up". Going down at a pallet guarantees an escape with power struggle if there's another survivor near (like my example: If I picked up, then the one outside runs in and pallet stuns me. If I go for the person outside, then the pallet survivor has enough recovery for a power struggle). That means at least one survivor is guaranteed to get up from the ground. Once I pick up just one of the survivors, that gives the other one not with powerstruggle plenty of time to do unbreakable which is 100% out of my hands, especially considering now notoriously bad the hook positions are in the map (often in rooms where you have to go a long ways and take a u turn to get to them). Going down in DBD absolutely does not guarantee you're getting hooked. Survivors get a LOT of second chances whether from perks, blinds, or stuns to counter being downed. That's not a killer mess up - that's just how the game is designed.
If they aren't running anti-pick up perks, then yeah, it's game over for the survivors. This match ended in about a minute. It was a bully squad, but they for whatever reason didn't run unbreakable and such.
https://youtu.be/S6SvH38N7R4?si=q8u0qSUQs5M8Ki5e
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633341#Comment_3633341
Here's a NON-small map where I had 8 regression events on a single gen, again, doing constant chases and leaving the center of the map several times.
Here is a match where I simply chased and down survivors on The Game. One gen had 8 regression events (12 regression events if you count locker grabs as a surge hit if they simply decided to not go into a locker) and that's including NOT kicking the gen when I could have. As you can see, I did constant chases, including chases upstairs, downstairs, and even to the opposite corner of the map to also try to protect a far gen.
https://youtu.be/CPOpdHtxl6o?si=rtCy5w7V6VksA70X
You'll notice that both of these matches, the survivors kept putting all of their pressure in the center of the map meaning there was nowhere else for me to even be at. I had an unlucky shack spawn on the first match, so naturally the survivors stayed right in the center with the shack since it was a strong loop for them.
Despite me not just parking my butt at the 3 gen at the beginning of the match and never moving - never doing chases - never doing downs - you know...what this "fix" is supposed to only affect, I would be placed in a situation where I have to simply watch the generator go up and up and up until complete without me having the ability to regress it. It would be even worse if I actually used more than just ONE regression perk (the weakest one, to boot!) or if I used kick information perks such as trail of torment. If I was running simply eruption, the 8 charge limit would have been reached within the first few minutes of the match.
I'm not presuming, I'm fully aware of the changes and neither on the PTB nor during any of my live matches have I found a match to ever hinge on the 8+n-th regression event (rarely ever have I even come close to that kinda number of regression events but that's besides the point).
Let me rephrase though: If a killer gets three slugs within ten seconds and still fails to end the match within two minutes with a 3 or 4 k, they are doing something wrong. If they need gen regression, deletion, blocking or delay in any way shape or form after an event like that to win the match they are lacking an essential set of skills.
I do find it kinda wild though that you go "in case a survivor has power struggle and is under a pallet they can get back up to" "one survivor is guaranteed to get back up". You have three slugs - pick the one who isn't under a pallet if you're that afraid of them.
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As for the Ghostie match: I know playstyles vary but there were several occasions where you were basically idle for a minute or more; no action that advances the match. -- Then again; Jeff and Ace also didn't seem particularly interested in actually playing the match. - Consequently, I wouldn't consider this representative.
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That being said. Yes, the longer a match is, the more likely you will hit that event count. Idk about you but my average match lasts seven to eleven minutes. - But coming back to the previous statement that there's no match where the question is "if" not "when" and the deciding factor is the 8+n-th regression event; that's a good thing and introducing a mechanic that makes sure the "when" isn't dragged out beyond what's reasonable is, imo, a good thing. And limiting resources (considering "gen regression" a resource just like pallets or item charges) is the way to go.
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It's a very underrated perk.
Sloppy? No worries. Chances are whoever's healing you will still get the heal through.
Skittish teammate technically missing the opportunity to unhook? That's okay. - Cheeky killer running stbfl? No worries, it'll go through.
And it makes you feel useful when a teamie is opening the gate.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633330#Comment_3633330
I don't defend 3 gens from the beginning of the match. Since you're accusing me of being this type of players, at least watch my match. I dint camp at a gen, I'm actively chasing people all over the map. The problem is when I go against survivors where the ONLY gens they are putting pressure on are the central gens. Why would I go walk miles away to the corner and the map and keep tabs on a gen at 0%? Watch my match. I'm actively doing chases constantly even away from the 3 gens. Once I'm done with the chase and hook, of course I'm going back to the central gen that's now at 60% to kick it. You're acting like that's a "problem killer" that needs fixing. That's ridiculous.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633341#Comment_3633341
This isn't the match video I was mentioning earlier, but here is me near the beginning of a match where I would be losing nearly half of my allowed charges on a gen within 10 seconds. I ignored the girl at the beginning because she has endurance and is bodyblocking my attempt at him.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/s/XuCrlLtCTV
Obviously not a 3 gen situation. A natural chase. I get one hook, as one survivor unbreakables up, and the other survivor has power struggle at the pallet.
That's mere seconds of losing nearly half the charges on a gen. If it wasnt the beginning of the match and other gens had progress, it would have hit the other gen near as well as one all the way upstairs. That would be 3 gens (one being all the way upstairs so not easy to get to) that had lost nearly half of the allowed charges all in 10 seconds causing for a very problematic endgame all for one hook. Again, terrible plays by the survivors, so under the new system, I would be punished by that gen being unregressable towards the end of the match? It's a small map and the gen is in the middle, it's almost guaranteed to get hit by surge. The most common response is "who cares? Looks like they NEED the help" but again, that is putting a situation where survivor misplays are getting rewarded by putting more restrictions on the killer. If they made their bed of misplays, they need to sleep in it, not get rewarded with an unregressable gen.
... if you need to kick any gen after a situation like that you're really doing sth wrong though. If a killer messes a three people down up it's really on the killer ...
@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632919#Comment_3632919
sorry but how is the 5% a boost to nowhere to hide?
it's a boost to kicking in general, but has no effect on that perk.
You would kick a gen to get NTH anyway - now you get a 5% progress deletion on top without investing into another perk. In that sense NTH - and any other gen kick perk - is buffed. I wouldn't word it that way but I suppose that's what was meant.
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Leader is a great perk. - Especially when that SoloQ teamie is somewhat skittish and was technically a beat too late to get the unhook --- or when you can't be bothered to wait longer than you absolutely must against sloppy.
Bond is amazing as well. - See if a teamie is bringing the killer to your gen or just chilling with them in the tile next to you / the floor above/below you. Also be able to actually bodyblock - and just generally be aware where your teamies hang out. Also; be able to reroute away from a teamie on a gen when in chase.
Balanced landing is also neat. Generally.
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I suppose you gave your own answer; if you wanna win tunneling is always gonna be the most efficient and reliable way. No matter how much you incentivise hook splitting.
Or do you actually wanna ask what could make the playerbase not care as much about winning? - safe for BP, since you ruled those out as an incentive already.
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Haven't met a single SM who intended to play remotely normally.
And if even Dead Dawg / The Game doesn't go their way? Ofc survs must've been cheating.
So yeah, if I get the chance to not have to deal with that, I take it.
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In situations like that I would prefer a bleedout button (and for all I care killers can get a the-entity-shoos-survs-out-the-gate-button) to not enable people to execute their petty and childish revenge / to deliberately waste other people's time for the sake of wasting their time.
If all survs are downed there's no reason to crawl around for five minutes. It takes about five seconds to see if someone has UB or something to try and turn the tables. (And if a killer isn't planning on hitting anyone once the exit gates are opened there's no reason or them to have to wait out a timer.)
Insisting on bleeding survs out is behaviour that serves no constructive, productive, or otherwise remotely positive purpose. Therefore it should be removed. The basekit UB was a failed attempt. - The next best thing is for players to not be forced to play along with it and wait it out but to allow them to politely nope out.
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comp is a very different creature from pub games. The comp crowd basically just took the infrastructure dbd offers as a base to build their own game.
It's kinda like MauMau and Durak. Both can be played with a standard deck of cards - and while both are often played with 36 cards they aren't palyed with the same cards (7-Ace in both - but in MauMau you get jokers and in Durak you get sixes), the general goal is to get rid of your cards - but that aside they're completely different games.
That being said though, I generally like the idea of no duplicates - since a number of perks that are perfectly fine in pubs become somewhat frustrating if stacked (Adren, for example). As others have pointed out though: it's borderline impractical. Four solos arrive in a lobby just to see three have Adren. - Which two gonna drop Adren? What are they gonna take instead? One goes "ok, SB then" - just to see another one already has it. How long do you want to discuss perk choices? If your loadout is locked in when you Q up so matchmaking matches people with unique perks only: that ain't gonna happen at all, simply because overall only a fraction of the perks are used at all.
--- And a short addendum from someone with a comp perspective that chimed in from the side: unique perks are not about balancing, they are about randomness-mitigation and information. The killer is supposed to be able to tell if they can realistically chase a survivor / if the deadzone is actually a deadzone for that surv, if it's the right play to slug that player or not (because they're the UB player) etc. pp. When it comes to balance it's the park bans that are supposed to balance. - Though that isn't possible for pubs either; with killer specific perk bans you'd have to reveal killers and with general perk bans ... well, that basically means just deleting the perk.
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I enjoy most M2 only killers - so long as their M2 is actually somewhat.... involved. So Billy, Demo, Nemo, Wesker, Huntress, Ghosti and Piggy come to mind as the fun ones.
There's also Trickster, Chucky and Pyramidhead that technically belong in that category as well - but I despise Chucky (people saying his size doesn't give him a huge advantage must be taking something - because how is not being able to see a killer and not being able to gauge distance somewhat accurately not a huge advantage for the killer?! - But I digress) - and as for Trickster; as long as it isn't bouncy blades he's alright too (does new trickster still have the bouncy blades?). And idk, but the only Pyramidheads I've seen in the past year or so have all been hard tunneling, which kinda disqualifies them.
As for some of the more... unique things; jumpscare Myers, Undetectable Huntress or Shocking only Doctor.... depends much on the vibes. Like, some do it for the memes and the match as a whole is just a big meme - and then there are some who take it to some kind of extreme that's just not particularly funny anymore. If a jumpscare Myers isn't about jumpscaring anymore but all about using the Mirror to tunnel someone out asap... that kinda spoils it. Same for undetectable Huntress. - And if Doctor has the goal to make completing gens as annoying as possible... well. It is pretty annoying already.
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"any type of weapon/injury and magically heal infinitely while running infinitely." please clarify what exactly you mean by that.
and man, all those people talking about how easy survivor matches are - can we like please switch matches or sth? Cause if those are the kinda matches you have then I'd really like to have some of those. Every... fifth would be alright with me. Just as a gentle reminder that someone out there actually has that kinda match.
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I remember one match on Haddonfield as Nemo where I might have kicked one gen eight times. - It was a group of very stubborn survivors who managed to three gen themselves - or, well, I don't think it was really avoidable on their part; I had two gens in Main and the one next to it, so a really tight three gen - and the first person took chase to main and I was too stubborn to drop it. So no one got around to doing those three gens and I doubt at that point during the match they were aware of the second gen in main. At some point they started to try and do the main gens between chase-laps but I could just do a drive-by-kick. I also did have jolt and eruption, so when I eventually did down a surv I got massive value.
After that it was just a stalemate that didn't seem to end --- but it's still Nemo. Eventually they won, but I did get six or seven hook stakes out of that extremely dragged out match.
And tbh. I'm glad that even that kinda stuff isn't going to be possible anymore.
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I have become a Quentin main because my high prestiges (Leon & Felix) resulted in way too many killers dodging the lobby. While dodging because of high prestiges isn't (or shouldn't be, given that enough time has passed that pretty much anyone who isn't pretty new at the game will have one character at a high, or semi-high prestige) really a thing anymore - or isn't as bad as before, at least - Quentin seems to have stuck. I still usually play him.
Why Quentin out of all the below-20-P at that time (more or less a year ago)? Since he has no cosmetics and not a reputation of being played by cracked players he seemed among the least threatening.
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@Sava18 said:
You address the systems people keep saying and do what you said.
Every other team based game doesn't allow this behavior like this game does, you can't justify it in games the 95% of the time end by 15 min(15 min being generous). The dc penalty is there if you gotta leave a couple times a day.
This game doesn't make you so miserable 2 min in the you need to leave, other games can make your life "hell" too.
All allowing people to leave freely does is create a self perpetuating cycle of bitterness. I think you guys would be surprised if people couldn't leave, how many of them would continue doing what they can in a game.
In principle I agree. - But there is at least one really big difference when it comes to dbd which makes me think you can't compare dbd to other games in this instance. In pretty much any other game you can say "you get what you signed up for" since in pretty much all other games both sides / everyone can choose from the same pool of stuff and/or can see what is being chosen. That's not the case in dbd. Or, well, it's only the case in tourneys or 1v1s or generally kyfs with transparent lobbies.
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keep in mind that this is PTB though. - If the Trickster is anything to go by my best guess is that their attitude toward PTB has changed. PTB is not the "fine tune" or "find bugs" stage but the "just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" stage. In case of Billy: just give him all the add-ons and see what people like/hate the most, what is used most often and what is the most successful on PTB (probably rather in terms of a metric other than hooks/kills since people don't usually take PTB seriously in that regard).
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623280#Comment_3623280
I think you are using the perk incorrectly to be honest. You're obviously going to be found if you are with someone when it goes off, because they will see the person that's not revealed and then they will see you. If you run as soon as you counter something like BBQ and chili the killer won't know that you were there.
If the killer isn't using aura reading that is still information you wouldn't get if you didn't have it. Aura reading is very abundant and popular also so if the killer isn't aura reading then maybe it's because they decided like me that distortion comes out on top anyways and it's not worth using.
Distortion is meta it is top 10 most used perk.
Ah. I think I have a better understanding where your dead-set-ness on Distortion(players) being an issue comes from.
What you describe as the "incorrect" way to play with Distortion is not at all incorrect. Your proposed playstyle with Distortion is the egoistical, non-altruistic, rat-like playstyle; same category as playing for hatch the second survs don't have a massive headstart and refusing to hook trade or bodyblock for a death hook surv while you're fresh etc. pp.
More often than not letting yourself be found via a non-Distortion user is the right play, especially when you are healthy; e.g. if that non-Distortion user isn't healed up yet and would be down way too fast. - You know what is coming and you know where it's coming from. Distortion allows you to be in the perfect position to e.g. bodyblock for the injured survivor - or better yet: run toward the killer to take chase. Chances are they go for the uninjured surv they have eyes on instead of the injured one who is who knows where.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623440#Comment_3623440
They kinda did though if you read Halloulle's post. :x They worded it to imply it's meant to get rid of camping, of all kinds.
tbh, the way they avoid the word "face" in the text is one of the things that amazes me the most. - Iirc they use the term "face camping" in the title, to be fair. - But then go to great lengths to avoid the term in the actual explanation of the mechanic.
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@Batusalen said:
"The best way I can think of to remedy that situation [...]"
Well, I can think of a lot of even better ways to solve it:
- Better in game documentation about every killer.
- Killer bots so survivors can practice against them.
- Per killer tutorial to learn how to both play as and against them.
- Any other idea that is realistically feasible (in other words, not impossible to do) and doesn't imply close to infinitum queue times.
Also, I recommend you look what Skill Based Match Making is and the technical details behind it so you understand why what you are suggesting doesn't make any sense and can simply not be done. Knowing how every killer work and how to play against them is part of getting good at the game.
"Knowing how every killer work and how to play against them is part of getting good at the game." Which requires you to have somewhat fair matches against each and every killer, no?
Neither documentation nor tutorials will help there; sure, you can pump the knowledge into your head if you want to treat dbd like a seminar for your college major - but that won't help you with the excution part.
The bots would be an idea - but only if they're actually having an authentic playstyle. Looking at surv bots, that's... questionable.
"Any other idea that is realistically feasible" - patronising much?
--- Granted, maybe the title should have come with a "theoretically" at the front. But titles being somewhat exaggerated/made somewhat more forceful/polarising/assertive isn't exactly a new concept either.
The feasible option of all that? Better than bots. Better than tutorials. Better than documentation. - And better than all matches being based on Killer MMR? A built-in 1v1 mode. I'm certainly no "come shack 1v1"- or "trapper-wraith"-monke but more than once I wished for a base game feature (both as surv and as killer) to have focused practise without having to scour Discord servers for people to practise with.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624729#Comment_3624729
I have no clue why it’s so believable that killers are willing to extend games to extreme lengths to defend a 3 gen, but it’s unbelievable that survivors would extend games to extreme lengths to break a 3 gen.
Also, if people honestly don’t think there wouldn’t be survivors that would purposely repair generators in short bursts and excessively hide, until the generators are damage immune… then we all should be fine if BHVR adds something in the game to prevent or punish survivors that are specifically trying to do that.
...Because from a surv pov it's always more reliable and faster to not have a three gen.
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@Peanits said:
Really quick note on this:
This might in fact be why to the devs the Dredge and other killers look perfectly fine: They have an overall decent killrate. Not because they're in a good spot but because very few people know what to do. It's easy to win against survs who don't know about the killer specific things they need to do.
We don't make decisions solely based on kill rates. Kill rates only show us where a problem might be, they don't tell us whether or not there is a problem or what that problem is. We spend a lot of time gathering feedback and watching gameplay before committing to changing something.
That aside, matchmaking is incredibly complex, so it's difficult to account for absolutely everything. To shed some light on why this isn't the case at the moment, most skills you use as you play are transferable and work against multiple Killers. Managing your time and deciding when you should be working on a generator, when you should be healing, and when you should be saving are all things that will come in handy no matter who you're facing. Memorizing the layouts of different maps so you know where to run is always going to be the same. Looping a Trapper isn't very different to looping a Legion, or a Pig, or an Oni, and so on. Some force you to play a bit more differently, but there's still a core set of skills that you bring with you.
The tricky part with splitting your Survivor rating into a rating for each Killer is that there are a lot of Killers in the game - 34 and counting. In practice, this would mean that your rating against any given Killer would only update 1/34th of the time, making it very slow to adjust. If you were struggling against the Dredge, for example, you would have to play many matches against them before your rating would lower to a more comfortable range. It takes a bunch of matches to estimate where you should be, then many more to fine tune it. In order to have an accurate rating against each of those Killers, you would need to play hundreds if not thousands of matches.
With all due respect - but playing against an Oni and a Trapper are two completely different things. Some aspects are transferable, very true. You still have to do gens, yes. And you can still block the path with a pallet. It's a bad idea to three gen and a bad idea to get hooked right next to a progressed gen or go down right next to a hooked person. Running into teamies repairing a gen is also a generally bad idea.
But no amount of playing against a skilled Trapper (or Legion or Pig) will help you against a flicking Oni. If you don't know where and under what circumstances Oni can flick and can land frankly absurd hits you'll always sit there with a surprised pikachu face. You'll only know that once you encountered a bunch of Onis who could do that and slowly learned to deal with it. - But as you say: there are many, many killers. It will take survivors a lot of time until they encountered enough killers to learn how to deal with all their kits. Until then their overall MMR just means they'll get stomped match after match after match. And only facing killers who are way out of your league doesn't really help you improve either. (In theory the bumping up and down between killers you already know your way around and killers you don't know your way around should help - but if you face Blight and Wesker disproportionally often, then...well.)
I'm not saying it's easy to do a Killer based MMR - or feasible, honestly. Not neccessarily even because of the complexity (which I for obvious reasons have no clue about) but because of Qtimes. If a very skilled Oni would have to wait until they get matched with survs who have encountered enough Onis to get to their MMR.... they'll probably gonna wait for a very long time.
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I have no clue why survs would intentionally three gen themselves to wait out the eight burst events on a gen. - But assuming the killer actually downed and hooked survivors before they got to the last gen most of the big regression perks should already have been proc-ed on the other gens; painres and pop, first and foremost. And if you got downs before they made it down to eight gens then you'll surely get enough downs before you reached your regression cap on one of the three remaining gens.
Though I do see where there's abuse-potential for stuff like Surge. - But that also seems to have an easy fix: regression events only start counting once a gen has progressed past 15 charges for the first time. So a gen that effectively isn't even progressed keeps its events. And as for Eruption; it should be easy enough to make it one regression event, since the gens are already marked as having Eruption applied to them, if the game can remember that then it can also remember to not take a second regression event.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624272#Comment_3624272
Because the condemned range is reduced to 16m? So spamming teleports won't do anything except randomly apply a stack or two of condemned to a couple survivors instead of putting the entire team halfway towards condemnation. You also need to hook them to lock in the progress which eh im on the fence about. Since it basically will only impact the first hook, by the second hook you don't need the mori anymore since they will be dead next down anyways. Really it incentives you to tunnel someone out in between dumping TVs into them, otherwise your mori is gonna be mainly cosmetic.
But it's any survivor close to a TV, right? Idk, but but people who aren't in a habit of stealthing edgemap will pretty much always be close to a TV (in no small part because they're usually right next to the gens and in pretty much every tile - like, where else do you want to be as surv?)
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I'm by no means an Onryo expert ... but can someone please explain to me how exactly the changes disincentivise / lead to Sadako not spamming teleport? Like, from what I gather it's still the most efficient way to get everyone condemned and is still more efficient than hooking (except if the hook is right next to the downed surv)?
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623436#Comment_3623436
All this quote shows that's "too close" and "most egregious" means something different to you than to the devs.
Can't say I'm surprised that a survivor feels the killer is too close unless he forgets about the hook and goes to do something else.
You kinda forget kind of a lot of other words. "frustration" due to the killer remaining "nearby" is something they state they want to address. Being in one of the "most coordinated teams" should not be obligatory. And since "there's not much the camped survivor can do" they want a mechanic that "may" give them another shot - since no one else can come help. ... Except that "may" comes with so many asterixes that the whole sentence could just be removed and it would make the whole thing more accurate.
Basement? Out of luck. The killer just needs to not stand still on the stairs and be able to count to ten. Hook in a room? Same story. Hook in a corner? Same story. Hook in the open? Same story. The only situation where it might actually happen is if the killer for some unfathomable reason hooks you right next to an undropped pallet or window on a safe loop. That's literally the only situation where you *may* actually get a chance.
Idk, if all they want to do is disincentivise killer slapping survs on hook or pretending to give them a bj then they should just call it an "anti hook-bm-mechanic" - that would at least be accurate.
Like I said, and like the dev update itself states: camping is a contended topic. But as is the mechanic fails to do what they stated as the intended purpose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The whole twist to put so much emphasis on the "face" is what irks me the most about the whole mechanic. Lemme quote you the dev update where they said what the PURPOSE of the mechanic was supposed to be:
"You probably don’t want to find yourself on the hook in the first place, but it can quickly become frustrating if the Killer decides to wait nearby, preventing all but the most coordinated of teams from rescuing you. Camping has long been a contentious topic: While there are times where camping is the smart thing for the Killer to do (if there are Survivors nearby, for example), there’s not much the Survivor being camped can do. To help in the most extreme cases, we are introducing a new feature which may give you a second chance. [...] This new mechanic is intended to address the most egregious camping scenarios, discouraging Killers from standing too close to a hooked Survivor for an extended period and creating opportunities for the other Survivors to make the save."
And the mechanic isn't doing what it's supposed to do. Simple as that. Doesn't matter if the "face" is in there or not. It's failing to achieve what it's supposed to achieve.
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Definition in my book: a) A perk that prevents you from getting injured/downed when the killer lands a hit. b) A perk that allows you to instantly reverse the injury/down.
With a narrow interpretation of that definition that is just BT, OTR, DS and DH.
With an expanded interpretation also FTP, Buckle Up, Soulguard and WGLF. With Soulguard, BuckleUP and WGLF it's not up to the survivor if they can make use of the second chance to begin with (first they have to get picked up by a survivor rather than the killer. This is also why UB is not on the list) and with FTP it's more trading the down rather than avoiding/reversing the down. The exception is BuckleUp+FTP which could be considered a second chance combination.
Lastly, Adren is usually just an utility perk but on the occasion it is timed to proc right after an injure/down it could also be considered second chance.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622881#Comment_3622881
I guess we are just going to have to disagree. I believe survivor should not have the choice of doing those things you mentioned.
Also from what i am understanding you are saying distortion is only to a problem for those who use aura reliant and i disagree. I can notice distortion even when i am using one aura item and based on my experience i've decided i am better of not running aura reading at all because of the scratch mark part of distortion and the frequency that i am seeing it.
b) I would love a perk that mostly adds QoL to SoloQ; if your aura gets read you are informed about it, and so are your teamies
This isn't "quality of life" it's a major advantage and isn't so relevant to solo q. SWF would use it.
You seem to believe distortion should be better and expanded upon.
So yeah i guess we are just going to have to disagree since we seem to have opposite opinion on this.
"This isn't QoL it's a major advantage.... SWF would use it" - you are aware that most swf do have one surv with Distortion precisely for that purpose, right?
I also don't think Distortion should be better - I say it serves many different purposes at the moment and to diversify would likely reduce the amount of Distortion (aura block) you will see, simply because blocking the aura is not the only reason people run it.
But the bottom line is yes, I think we have two fundamentally different points of view. Mainly when it comes to this: "I believe survivor should not have the choice of doing those things you mentioned." --- All the things I mentioned boiled down to the survivor being able to avoid being sitting ducks, just waiting to be sniped one way or the other. I very firmly believe survivors need to have the tools available to be able to adjust their playstyle to a killer loadout. Aura reading being one of the things a killer can bring.
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You are not suggesting nerfing Distortion, you are suggesting absolutely obliterating it to the point where it could just as well be removed.
There are some issues with distortion (minor issues, imo, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed) that have become apparent with its increase in usage and in some specific situations. First and foremost it's the whole hide-and-seek-game and the stealth-following the killer to recharge tokens while at the same time never be seen by teamies or the killer.
However, the most glaring issue with Distortion isn't actually an issue with Distortion but with survivor choices. Any survivor who wants to do any of the following has exactly one choice: Distortion.
a) avoid getting their aura read at potentially any time without any way to tell why or "play around it" as there are so many aura-reading perks and add-ons that it's effectively impossible to tell and thus equally impossible to "adjust your playstyle".
b) wants to get insight into a killer-loadout, which is very valuable information, e.g. to know if there might be NOED in play or how to deal with certain situations.
c) want to start a chase on their terms and not be hit with a surprise attack via aura read.
d) don't want to get two tapped by a Huntress or other ranged or semi-ranged killer who has add-ons that effectively give them wallhacks.
e) want to use stealth strategically to e.g. unhook, complete a gen, distract the killer, get a fl/fb/sabo save (Awawa) or simply not be a sitting duck when the killer searches for them.
As for how that looks to the killer - same issue, now the other side of the coin - lemme quickly quote myself in some other thread about Distortion:
The biggest issue it [Distortion] has atm is oversaturation from the pov of those who get countered by it. What do I mean? An aura-reading-reliant-build is by no means the norm - but if you do run one you will always notice a player running distortion and that number has gone up over the past year or so. And you will pretty much only see distortion (safe for the odd OTR where it actually hides the aura at a crucial moment) counter your build. So if you run into this whenever you play more than a handful of matches you will get tired of it really quickly.
I would love to see "how to deal with aura reading perks on the killer side" getting expanded to address the points made above regarding why survs pick Distortion in a more specialised way. for a) and b) I would love a perk that mostly adds QoL to SoloQ; if your aura gets read you are informed about it, and so are your teamies (maybe make it in a way where it reveals your aura not just to the killer but to all players, and you yourself get a notification; perk lighing up for as long as your aura is being read). No auras hidden, just informed that it happens. For c) I suppose a cousin of current Distortion could be useful; you have a limited amount of tokens and during the first half second or something your aura is hidden; if you choose to reveal your aura you keep your token, otherwise it stays hidden but you lose a token. (Or for all I care the other way around; that when your aura gets read you can chose to insta-hide it.) d) and e) could get combined again: Your aura only gets hidden if you are within x meters of the killer - and this time around tokens get recharged by game progressing actions; unhooking, healing, doing gens, doing hex-totems. --- Then Distortion as the "allrounder" could also be made harder to maintain; that only recharge during chase or sth along those lines.
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Server sind ja auch in Frankfurt, da hat man in DE und BENELUX idR den besten Ping.
Was bei solchen Hits aber wichtiger als dein Ping ist, ist zum einen der Ping des Killers und zum anderen die Hitbox/Hit-Mechanik des Killers.
Es gibt einige Killer, bei denen die Hitbox/Hit-Mechanik doch sehr von dem abweicht, was du auf deinem Bildschirm siehst z.B. Huntress M2, Nemesis M2, Wesker M2, Victor - und auch Alien M2. Was du siehst: Alien benutzt M2, der Schwanz schießt in einer geraden Linie in die Richtung, in die gezielt wurde. Was du nicht siehst: die Hitbox, die um die Spitze des Schwanzes herum geht. Sie hat eine Dauer und kann während dieser Dauer auf der X und Z Achse (also nach links und rechts und oben und unten) bewegt werden.
Wenn dazu dann ein gewisser Ping kommt (und/oder packet loss), dann sieht es auf deinem Bildschirm aus, als ginge die M2 voll daneben und/oder sogar um eine Ecke herum. Das passiert, weil die Killer-Server-Interaktion beim Hit ausschlaggebend ist; d.h. wenn du deine Hitbox auf deiner Seite schon um die Ecke herum bewegt hast, der Killer auf seiner Seite deine Hitbox aber noch vor der Ecke hat (und wenn es nur der letzte Pixel ist), dann gibt der Server dem Killer den Hit.
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Distortion pre 6.1 (been running it ever since I learned of its existence and have grown ever more attached to it) but I suppose with the rise in usage it could be considered too close to meta to count here.
At the moment.... I don't really get hate for anything tbh. Then again, I also run very chill, pretty off-meta builds so I would be extremely surprised if I got hate.
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wdym, killers got basekit Brutal, basekit StBfL, and a basekit buff for gen regression on kick right around survs got basekit bt.
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@Pulsar said:
Unclear as of this time.
No Blight runs bad add-ons. It's hard to determine base strength without having any data.
There is the odd (what I assume is a) "I'm too good at Blight and it's getting boring, so to spice things up I do Shadowborn only"-Blight. Among them a handful who are actually cracked and who destroyed us anyway (by "us" I mean potato me, another potato and two "come shack 1v1, bring Blight" - and who routinely run all kinds of Blights for several gens) with 15-40 seconds between downs.
My take based on that: if the player is cracked, knows the ins and outs of Blight and, almost more importantly, has not just the chase micro-game but also the makro game down, Blight is still extremely good. - At least as far as the potential is concerned. Question is: How will the not-cracked-player fare?
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@czinsation said:
I'm not saying it needs to get like hard nerfed just that after 75-80% (heck even 90% would be good enough imo) he should be forced to commit to the decloak is all. Like you said, the mind game aspect is super important to that mechanic but there needs to be a threshold rather than just if you have decent ping and let go before the bar is full you fully cancel.
That's basically it; at a certain point it's really not down to skill or mindgames but to ping. And while I really want to agree that that shouldn't be a thing, ping as a factor is not eliminate-able from an online pvp game. There might be a very thin line where the ping situation is mitigated without compromising the cloak-mindgame - but I wouldn't count on it.
Personally, I do think Wraith does need minor nerfs/changes/adjustments but most of it comes down to an add-on-pass and just how much he benefits from some of the perk changes and not his current basekit. But since some of those perks are getting changed again I'll hold off on that one for now.
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Haven't been playing dbd a lot recently (tbh, me really wanting that Jeff head from the event is the only reason I've played a fair bit the past two weeks) but I've been surprised by the BP bonus as well. - I used to play whichever role had more incentive when by myself, and if friends were around I played with them in swf. Sometime during the early evening hours it always switched from 100% on surv to 100% on killer and it stayed there until long past midnight. But during the event I have seen killer bonus once toward the late-ish evening and all other times it was on surv, non stop. Which also resulted in me doing nearly none of the killer challenges for the first two event tome chapters; since qtimes are so long and "surely incentives will be on killer eventually". But nope.
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If anything Distortion needs alternatives.
The biggest issue it has atm is oversaturation from the pov of those who get countered by it. What do I mean? An aura-reading-reliant-build is by no means the norm - but if you do run one you will always notice a player running distortion and that number has gone up over the past year or so. And you will pretty much only see distortion (safe for the odd OTR where it actually hides the aura at a crucial moment) counter your build. So if you run into this whenever you play more than a handful of matches you will get tired of it really quick.
On the other hand: survs who don't want to be screwed by one of the many kinds of aura reading available have exactly one perk available to them. It used to be that you could tell which aura reading perk/add-on the killer had based on what happened; there were only so many. But now there are a ton of aura reading things that you will not be able to identify at all and consequently it's impossible to adjust your playstyle to it and "play around it".
One perk I would really look forward to is a perk that tells you (idk, smallgame style) whenever your aura is being read but doesn't actually hide your aura unless you're injured and within x meters of the killer. the first part would only give you information to help you adjust your playstyle. The second part is to make it more than just a gimmick for solo (in swf value is there already: call out perks and add-ons): it helps you out when you need it the most (e.g. healing against nurse's or being in a tile where a killer kicks a gen with nth) - while also being very anti "hide edgemap with distortion and never be seen" since you still show up with all the aura reading perks/add-ons that help a killer find survs that aren't right next to them anyway; e.g. floods, bbq, darkness revealed, murmur, gearhead - just to name a few.
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I recognised a number of names / steam profiles as well -- and there was an awkward encounter or two where the killer was a good acquaintance and they were technically very set on the 4k (get the sacrifice 4 survs in one match for example) and then it got awkward one way or the other.
Though, I figured it was more down to the holidays and the player pool being somewhat smaller. - Because while I have been seeing the same people, it was also a wild experience; both looking at hours (anything from 200 to 8k hours) and at skill; from the dreaded seal-team-and/or-comp-duo-that-decides-to-shenanigan-in-pubs to what-is-that-skillcheck-people-keep-talking-about on surv side and all-the-hugtechs-blight to wait-how-does-M2-work-Wraith
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As far as chapters go; I agree, for now enough of RE chapters. At some point, when there are more chapters overall I'm all for another RE chapter - but for now it's enough.
As for cosmetics: I don't understand the complaints about cosmetics either. - Maybe, to some degree, the character-changing-cosmetics like Carlos and Chris for Leon; cause that's kinda a sneaky way to get more characters of a franchise into the game without having to design perks or release a whole new chapter. But people who object to giving the characters that do exist more cosmetics? Nah, dun understand that.