Gandor
Gandor
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I don't play any more, but reading this thread just screams solution that nobody mentioned and quite frankly I wonder why that is.
No killer has problem with the limitation if he does not bring regression perk OR if he does not excessively 3gens. So why do perk regressions count toward the limit? Make it so that only kicks count towards regression events
(and you can even lower the number of required events to 6 and it still should not be problem - I am not saying you should - as I said I am not playing the game any more so I have no idea in practical terms, but it seems to me 6 should be enough in this case. At least I never kicked single gen more then 4 times when playing killer for as long as I can remember, but it's true I never played chess merchant or other kicking killers).
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All I can say is, if the game is frustrating to you, just give it a break. I know I myself am on one - I even missed every bit of the haunted by daylight event (and I will see if my break is permanent).
My personal reason is map design team. One of most fun interactions in the game for me was to sabotage hooks - which quite frankly lost it's charm after background player buff AND MOSTLY with new maps having 10 hooks within carry distance of downed survivor.
But it's devs decision and when I made thread about it - overwhelming majority of people likes having 10 hooks to choose from. For me there are too many negatives (lag hits/pokos, bugs and all that + survivors getting nerfed over time more and more (you can see it very well right now with complaints to Hawkins map - it was perfectly OK in time when it was still in game, but now I am just 100% sure it will get changed within few months with serious pallet reduction) + huge amount of killers that are just sooooo unfun to face (skull merchant even new version, sadako even new version, nurse, blight, trickster and I am pretty sure even more so new version and maaaaany more)) and the only thing that balanced it out and made me play the game is diminished too much + the trend is to diminish it even further with every map redesign.
So I play different games now. But to be honest - who knows? After a few months maybe I will long for DBD again. After all tilt levels tend to go down with time and you will remember fun times again. And who knows? Maybe when I return pinhead will be fixed (haha I doubt that will be the case with the speed of devs - few months to fix camera? Not enough time) and I will once again enjoy at least killers.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565963#Comment_3565963
SC Botany is still slower than a medkit with no perks.
Green keys should just not exist or at least rework keys to all have an aura reading function without addons, in addition to opening hatch. No item should be completely worthless.
The debuff is there so the perk can be stronger, otherwise it’d likely have to be at a point where there’d be no reason to use it over Streetwise with the item you want instead.
Or maybe let's try it this way... Why is nobody using overwhelming presence even on killers like doctor or wesker if they go to small map?
Might that have to do something with frankling totally outclassing the perk in all practical terms?
If I am right in this regards - why create new overwhelming presence with some malus (like need to be in TR or need to use extra slow chest that is already slow + is an item gamble) and expect it to be anything else then yet another bloat in long list of useless perks (on both sides)?
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565963#Comment_3565963
SC Botany is still slower than a medkit with no perks.
Green keys should just not exist or at least rework keys to all have an aura reading function without addons, in addition to opening hatch. No item should be completely worthless.
The debuff is there so the perk can be stronger, otherwise it’d likely have to be at a point where there’d be no reason to use it over Streetwise with the item you want instead.
If you compare just 200% medkit with sc+botany, then sure. But you are leaving out the need to go and find/open the chest and then pickup and maybe even move to less exposed spot then that chest on top of the hill in the middle of the map.
This does not even include chests being limited. Or as we spoke you getting an item you didn't wish for (be it even flashlight that can be used in comparison to just useless green keys).
So once again - why would you ever wish to take this new perk + streetwise over something much more reliable with SC+botany? What niche would your combo occupy and make it better in that case? Because I see none.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565785#Comment_3565785
The toolboxes are mainly why I want chest opening to be faster (and because medkits are nerfed now it would be more acceptable - I didn't think it would be fair with the old medkits). Without addons, any toolbox you get from a chest saves you less time on a generator than you spent opening the chest (even if we exclude the time spent traveling to a chest - the 10 seconds to open a chest + the couple of seconds afterward to pick up that item is greater than what a Commodious saves you on a gen, and any other toolbox without addons would save less time) so unless you pull off a sabotage play you likely won't gain anything of value from that toolbox.
If we reduce the base time to open a chest, then I'd love the idea in the OP as a perk if it was something like this:
"Reduces your chest-unlocking speed by (some amount that makes it take slightly longer to open a chest than it normally takes now). When you pull an item from a chest, you gain 65/70/75% increased efficiency when using that item, until it is depleted."
While this isn't technically adding more charges, it means if you are willing to spend a bit longer to get an item, then for the cost of offsetting the buff to make chests faster you can make it a really good item by making its existing charges worth a lot more and it wouldn't be able to get out of hand with BTL since it would deactivate once the item is out of charges. 75% increased efficiency means for every 1.75 charges that would normally be used, you will only use 1 charge, effectively making the item last 75% longer than normal. Combining this with Streetwise would allow 2 full self-heals with 1 medkit (since then you'd have 100% which cuts the number of charges you use in half), which for 2 perk slots I think is perfectly fine.
2 perks for 2 not even quick and limited heals (if you even get midkit instead of green key)? What would be the case compared to self care+botany?
Nope, no debuffs. If it should be beneficial in a niche scenario, it has to work on it's own and provide you with at least something more then plot twist does right now (and higher efficiency for every item from chest without any malus would just about make it gamble perk that can screw you over with map/key/brown toolbox, vs being worth it with medkit or strong toolbox).
You need to compare it to existing perks that are being used. Otherwise it's another territorial imperative or current pharmacy.
@Crowman said:
We have perks to guarantee med-kits, flashlights, and toolboxes from chest. We don't really need survivors reliably pulling the item they want with 2x charges.
Right. Because using all those perks has no cost and is definitely better then MfT+UB+hope+WoO....
Each slot is expensive thing. Using another perk slot just to guarantee an item and having 2 slots for 200% charges? Totally not worth it. Especially because you can use different perks for same benefit and without wasting time finding/running to/opening cgest/picking up item.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I'd rather they just make it faster to open a chest so it's not as much of a time sink to get an item from it. Allowing items to have double the starting charges without any perks or addons I think would be pretty broken for medkits and toolboxes.
There are 3-4 chests in trial by default. You still need to walk to it and open it for a long time - that alone will make any but commodious toolbox not worth it.
As for medkits - you are right. But there's an easy fix - make it 180% instead of 200%.
A side-bonus - you just buffed pharmacy to make some sense again (3 heals from 2 chests, because you know you will get medkit).
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3563242#Comment_3563242
That's an expensive operation though... a point to point distance calculation is a very cheap calculation with modern hardware... constant path finding every frame? That would be heavy on the CPU....
Edit: I still feel 1 Nemesis in the y axis should be the cut off of the AFC myself 😁
Not really. A* is much more expensive then distance calculation (which is like 1 equation and that's it), but you don't have to fully expand it and you don't need to recalculate it each frame. If the desired distance is say 20m, then calculate A* to distance of 24m and recalculate once every second. It's not 100% correct, but it's good enough and it's still quick (and you can optimize further - if distance equation gives you more then 20m, you don't need to bother with A* at all).
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u hit anyone with medkit and even if that person picks it up right away and does not get M1'd again, that medkit is useless (without addons). Franklins is already in a good spot. It's pure benefit for no malus - unlike survivor's counter perks like calm spirit
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@xltechno said:
no. Having selfcare tools available is a huge advantage in itself. If you get it every time, it will affect the balance of the game.
Ah right. Because the perk is so OP. That's like saying No - Freddy is already plenty strong and does not ever need any buff - 115% base speed is plenty strong as is
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3563223#Comment_3563223
I agree with that.... The astremical aspect of DBB, the rng aspects; there some thing I am fine with, but other RNGs like hook placements can be quite bad in rare occasions... One day, you have the Game map where all the hooks are on the other side of the map or upstairs, and you are stuck with one hook that may be destroyed after a sacrifice, and there is no chance for you to go to carry to the other hooks without Agitation or Iron Grasp build. In other case, you have some maps that have hook spawning way too close and it makes for a easier camping. (Pretty that is gutted now, that anti-face camping mechanic is implemented).
If you notice, you have very high chance for 2 hooks in small room (the one with single pallet above LT) where hooks definitely break supposed minimal distance hook should have. This is in maybe 50% of all the games (and even this does not mean there won't be another 3-5 hooks nearby). But as I said - I saw an RNG placement, where literally no bodyblock or anything was needed to make sure killer does not get you to a single hook no matter what. Like sometimes RNG does insane things
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There's just 1 map that provides quite a large value for boil over that is hard to counter and that one is MacMillan's ironworks of misery (main). But you can't pick that one just like that, because you can only pick realm (and there are 5 mac millan maps).
But even in this case, there are things you can do.
1, if you can fall quickly - then do so. Boil over gives wiggle from current wiggle progress (so 30% from 0 is still 0).
2, know your hook spawns - if you do, you will not miss that one hook that was 3m away from you
3, try to catch the rhythm of wiggle progress - you can practically reduce the effect of boil over by like 80% by looking in the opposite direction of where it's going to force you
4, if you happen to be on Ironworks - there's still a thing you can do - try to count how many times survivor makes a noise while you are carrying (this measures time) - after 7th noise when you drop survivor, he will instantly wiggle free. If you do this on the edge of the ledge (or directly at the moment you are starting to fall) - survivor will wiggle free, but he will fall which will stagger him. That's very easy free down again - but now much closer to hooks. You can use this trick on any map, but you don't need it anywhere but on Ironworks
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562166#Comment_3562166
Wouldn't something like a pathfinding system work ideally for this? Using the path to know the shortest distance to the Survivor from the Killer could work even on hills maybe. (not sure how it is done now, but I assume something akin to a sphere check, don't quote me on that tho)
Oh I would love this. Make it path-finder based and most killers (ehm, nurse) gets immediately fixed. Maybe slightly higher range could be used then (18 or maybe 20m, but no more) - but that's not really required.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
A simple fix would be to make it impossible for him to mori you for maybe 20s after you get unhooked.
Make it simpler. Can't mori during enduring. Realistically against mori meyers that's 90% after unhook and maybe 10% for very cheeky/risky saves from ground with buckle-up.
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The game is usually full to a brim with hooks that absolutely make it a non-issue. But once in a blue moon, there's whole quarter of the map that has no hooks at all (I have had 1 especially bad map RNG where killer couldn't hook survivors even if nobody was helping).
It's super rare and most of the time killer has no issue, but RNG is sometimes merciless...
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I also had to drop him because of this bug. He's too insufferable to play right now
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562062#Comment_3562062
How he works?
Hes an m1 killer. Theres not much more to him.
actually there is. You can mindgame (even in chase) with your teleport for pretty good result.
Sure. Freddy is still underwhelming and is one of the weakest killers in game. But it does not mean he has no power at all
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@Mandy said:
To clarify a few things here, this is not an "Anti Camp Feature" this is purely for the cases of face camping. The bar will not stop if the killer is right next to you but continue to fill until you can hop of the hook at an opportune moment. The best time for survivors to hop off is just before the 1st ends and then before the 2nd stage ends - to waste as much of the killers time as possible.
And I don't believe making unhooks silent will assist in the problem at all, they will likely make killers never leave the hook area at all - as they lose that vital information.
Camping and tunneling are still viable strategies - one that can be punished by the other survivors in the match also - doing the generators whilst the killers are camping for example, or taking hits when a survivor is being tunneled to allow the survivor to get to another loop.
The feature that we just implemented is of course being monitored and we will be carefully looking at the effects of it, but it's most definitely not an anti camp feature and it's not meant to affect "regular" camping.
While I fully agree. Can we please look at niche scenarios that are still in game? Thankfully Bubba was addressed (at least to some degree). What about tombstone Meyers (at least don't let him mori during endurance so he can't mori the second you get unhooked)? He doesn't care that you can unhook and will actually facecamp very happily. What about guarding the only entrance to the hook (basement, most hills, some main buildings like Thomson house)? How is it effectively any different to facecamping?
I like the addition of this feature to the game. I also think the distance is justified. Some killers have it still too easy to effectively camp (pinky clown, iri huntress, etc) - but it's still better then without this feature. But there still could be a few tweaks to the system
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561818#Comment_3561818
Gandor has expressed a desire for kill rates being balanced around 50%, and BHVR's stated intention is to hover around 60%. I think it is a fair assertion that kill rates are likely currently above 50%, but below 60%.
For one, when BHVR revealed perk stats, they didn't reveal kill stats. That leads me to believe the kill stats are NOT currently hovering around 60%, or any desired range.
Two, Survivor is getting QoL mechanics that will negatively impact kill rates. That leads me to believe the kill stats are above 50%, because otherwise BHVR would be scrambling to pump the numbers.
Three, while i also devalue sweatlords self-reporting (Nightlight), it can be fair to say their numbers are often enough, somewhat in the ballpark, with exceptions existing. (see the recent thread comparing BHVR perk stats and Nightlight's stats, with Self-Care being the most notable exception that I can recall) As a result, Nightlight's aggregate ballpark of above 50 and less than 60 could support points 1 and 2.
exactly. Thanks. You saved me a few letters
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561489#Comment_3561489
there is add-on called purple boat key. it increases his teleport speed by 25% when your outside of nightfall. the idea behind slow teleporting is that when you are in a locker, the nightfall meter charges quicker. I believe this mechanic is called resign of darkness. dredge's map presence is low because nightfall is mediocre. his ambient noises in nightfall paired with glowing model makes his stealth rubbish. he takes long time to get out of lockers at default and then he has locking mechanic that makes him worse in early game. those type of mechanics make dredge not very strong.
I absolutely don't agree his ability is rubish during nightfall. I consider him quite strong during it (very low CD, very high TP speed and information when survivor is nearby usually get me whole down during nightfall and I am not even like super good with him - similar experience when playing against him).
His only problems are outside nightfall AND locker placement. As locker placement are map specific and harder to fix, buffing a bit some his daytime abilities (or alternatively making nightfall a little easier to obtain) is absolutely enough.
Again - I think overall the killer is a little weak. But calling him weak during nightfall means too little experience with the killer and there's no way around that one.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561482#Comment_3561482
is it? i think you could have nightfall entire game and strong teams would still escape.
IMO he's actually strong during nightfall. All the abilties and speeds combined are very strong. But admittedly power being so limited makes him a bit weak. So sure - buff his normal speed teleports. That should help with map presence
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I agree. Just don't make it nearly as quick as night time dredge. That thing is worth being time-limited. I don't know how quickly it would feel in game, but I think somewhere between 16m/s and 20m/s might do it (in comparison according to wiki it's 38m/s during nightfall)
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560665#Comment_3560665
sabotaging isnt meant to get saves on its own, its meant to augment team plays. If you want to secure saves by yourself thats what flashlights are for.
Yes. Sadly this is true. Sabo is no longer usable on it's own. You need whole team to sabo otherwise it's wasted effort while flash save is both easier, more reliable and less costly.
And these are all the results of recent patches where hook density only goes up. This absolutely wasn't the case at patch 6.0. And even though most people didn't care and those that did were admitting sabo is too hard (with ocasional complaint about boil over which I don't really get), we are still getting new maps that are even harder for sabo then previous one.
Why? I have no idea. But looking at this discussion it's shared sentiment that sabotages should be slowly deleted from this game.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561202#Comment_3561202
Admitted that i havent tried on the new maps.
I disagree with the Oak offerings, our swf always use them when we play sabo, and we defo see an effect. Also as a former killer i felt the effect.
I take your word for it. Whenever I tried it, RNG played much bigger role so I didn't keep statistically large enough sample to make informed decision (and basically almost stopped using the offering long time ago).
Still it's quite common to see better hook RNG without any offering then with stacked offering (which can be random fluke, but this absolutely does happen)
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As EU player I would be very happy about this too (in my selfish case - central African server would be better). It would eliminate some of the most annoying killers that come from middle east that are totally painful to play against - they would actually get better ping and EU players would also have a bit more relaxing time.
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AFC was never meant to prevent any camping. It's there just to remove the most uninteractive part where there's nothing u can do but watch person on hook die. That's no longer the case. You can now unhook or at least trade. Even against killers that are camping from distance.
The only issue mentioned is what @LapisInfernalis mentioned (but it's to be expected that there would be some problems with early implementation). Everything else is fair game.
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The fact that calm spirit in it's current awful state with unreasonable debuff saw 500% increase in usage just because UW was released is the definitive answer of if/how badly UW is broken.
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@Nos37 said:
Too many hooks?
"House of Pain" and lower level of Badham Preschool would like to disagree.
House of pain is guaranteed 2 hooks within carry distance (one in front of it and one behind it). There could be even more depending on RNG.
As for badham main - this I agree is one of complicated spots if you don't have basement there. But if you open breakable walls, you should always have at least 1 hook within carry distance (probably more depending on RNG).
But the topic is a bit different - if devs touched badham now, I am pretty sure main would have 2 hooks on bottom floor, 2 hooks on top floor and house of pain would have 1 hook on each floor too. All the newly touched maps have way too many hooks
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560081#Comment_3560081
Use Oak Offerings with your Sabo build
Oak offering is placebo. It does not make any real difference - even if you 4man stack it. RNG is king - you can have map that spawns a lot of hook close together with 4x the offering and you can have map with barely any usable hook with just putrid oak offering.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560087#Comment_3560087
Really? works for me. (not 100% of the times tho)
Tried it on new maps?
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That's probably too much even for exhaustion perk - provided it will not take you considerable time to actually climb up.
It would be too hard to balance so that it's fair also for killers
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@BubbaDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560819#Comment_3560819
I think I see what you're saying, but it's pretty far into areas I'm not qualified in. I do see what you mean about the other, I was talking about sabo-only strat, and you were saying saboing as a smart play. You're right, saboing to help win should be viable, I don't enjoy it, but I respect it.
What was the change to hooks that messes with sabo? I didn't play last night, and I doubt I'd know it if I saw it.
With every map remake hook density goes way up. It started with Midwitch (this one was "justified" as hooks were really terrible there - now it's one of the harder maps for sabotages, but still possible), then they changed Rancid Abbatoir where it's absolutely not viable ever to sabotage (no matter if you are on map edge or anywhere) and now new mac millan variants are like Rancid. And they did nothing with Saloon - which was always very hook dense (and the only possibility of sabo was literally only if you had lucky RNG + the down happened inside gate, or if killer panicked and didn't realize 1 hook down means nothing).
@xltechno said:
As others have said, sabotage does not guarantee a successful escape.
And for example, when a survivor is downed in the middle of the map, are you still trying to sabotage them? The killer can go anywhere from there. Survivors who try to interfere cannot block all paths. The killer's movement is restricted at the edge of the map. Let's understand the situation.
And your claim that there are hooks at 5m intervals has already been refuted. If you've played a killer for any length of time, you'll know that there are many situations in which the hooks used to hoist up survivors are not convenient.
Did you spend 1000 hours on sabotage? All you need to do is play the killer for 1000 hours and develop the ability to read the killer's reality and psychology.
And I will repeat myself - I don't want to have guarantee. I never did. But I don't want to have guarantee sabotage will fail. That's the issue I am talking about. Right now on new maps it's guaranteed sabotage will fail. 5m was of course hyperbole, but what is NOT hyperbole is, that killer can literally go for a hook that will go down right to his face, survivor can take hit and killer still has enough time to go for next hook GUARANTEEING that sabotage will fail. All I want is guarantees to be off for both sides.
Also I do play a lot of killer. So your comment in that regards is meaningless. Also playing as killer (on M&K) I still don't get why some people bring boil over (as it got value against me literally just 1x and even that one was mainly because of successful sabo and last wiggle hitting me on hook instead right next to it so that I could animation lock into it) - but that one is still popular.
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560391#Comment_3560391
I lost 2 games last night to sabotage, it devastated my momentum and I could not recover in the short amount of time I had to make a difference. There is no objective reason that a crippling maneuver like sabotage should be made easier. If the gen times were not comically short, THEN something like easier sabotage might be realistic, but at the moment there is simply no time to facilitate what you're wanting in a way that is even remotely fair.
Then those 2 games were on one of the old maps. I am 100% certain you either panicked, or you were not in mac millan (new variants)/saloon/rancid abbatoir. My guess is it's the map thing not panic thing
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@BubbaDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560731#Comment_3560731
No, I didn't look at any new maps. I'll be extra-truthful, I am not strategically-minded enough to have any idea what the differences will be. I've only played survivor once, ever. I know what strategies work against me, other than that, I'll take your word for it on what is or isn't viable. Also I'm not smart enough to keep track of which patch is which.
But I don't think saboing to win is supposed to be viable. I don't think holding 3 gens for an hour is supposed to be viable, either. I think both sides are supposed to fight back and forth while doing objectives, the winner is the one that gets there first. Other things can work sometimes, but playing for objectives should be the most effective.
Sabo here and there, that's good. Sabo to save someone from death-hook, great play. Sabo every time? I don't know when that is or isn't viable, I don't think it should be. An atypical playstyle shouldn't be consistently viable for either side during any patch.
I often play atypically, but I don't think it should be as effective. It's a long shot, if it works it might be awesome, but it shouldn't usually work.
Coming into a game with the idea that you're not going to be hooked at all because of your build, I don't know if it's ever viable in any patch, but I don't think it should be.
Like I said, I don't know what works for survivors except for my own experience. Saboing to win has never been viable in my games, as soon as I see that's the plan, it's 4k unless the last one gets the hatch. If I can't go for my 12 hook, I'm happy to play for pretend-revenge. Making killers give up on hooking shouldn't be viable, that's what I'm saying.
But I also don't mean to say it's bad or should be penalized like it would be if killers were doing it, variety is what keeps me playing. I like the drama, the struggle and I love it when something different happens. Hook-denial teams can be a ton of fun, but I don't let them win. The only viable strategy against me is outplaying me. Plans won't save you, builds won't save you, you either get away or you don't.
That's how I think it should be.
I agree it shouldn't work every time. If we disregard several parts of game (most recently boil over fiasko that indeed could make you unhookable), this wasn't the case. I also am not talking about having consistent way how to sabotage - that's why I was concerned with bg player buff.
But I didn't expect hook changes that were implemented. That's the only reason why I am quite frankly very unhappy. If sabotages were as strong as specifically at patch 6.0 (6.1 reduced hit cooldown which changed some crucial timings), I would be super satisfied.
There were some maps that were strong for sabotages and others that made it impossible. You could force some trades if played reasonably well, but even that wasn't guaranteed.
Right now there are no maps that are good for sabo (with exception to parts of selected few maps), but there's growing number of maps where going for sabo is stupid no matter what
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@BubbaDredge said:
I think there's too many gens. There should only be five, since only five are needed.
See the problem?
When a killer downs someone, that's supposed to be a hook. Blocking, saboing, Boiling Over, these aren't supposed to be an entire strategy for winning. Stopping a hook is supposed to be an extra thing survivors accomplish, not what they expect to do instead of running.
When a killer finds a way to stop gens completely, that's not a fun game, the basic objective of survivors isn't supposed to be stoppable. Stopping survivors is a bonus, but shouldn't be something that's consistantly do-able, shouldn't even be consistent.
If I bring gen progression to a halt, that's an accomplishment. If I bring all slowdown perks to bring gens to a halt, that's not an accomplishment, that's just being obnoxious. I don't want the game to be impossible for the other team, or miserable. I'm not trying to stop survivors from getting points, if anything, I'm piling them on.
And as others said, when a killer can't hook, there's no choice but to bleed survivors. Once a team shows me they don't think I should be able to play at all, that's when I camp, tunnel and bleed people out. If I can't get anyone hooked because they wanted that type of game, I have to make every hook as deadly as possible.
Once it's clear the plan is to not let me get hooks or points, the only thing left to play for is kills.
Don't yearn for a game that's too hard for killers, killers just adapt. I was here when sabos were permanent, I've played when the only hooks left were in the basement. Survivors didn't leave happy, they didn't leave at all. The game is healthier and more fun when basic objectives are possible.
And I really have to ask you. Did you see new maps? Do you really think sabotages can be called consistent strategy? Do you trully believe it? Or do you think sabotaging as a whole concept (not just a rare ocasion when it works) was OP at say patch 6.1? Answer truthfully please.
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@BubbaDredge said:
I think there's too many gens. There should only be five, since only five are needed.
See the problem?
When a killer downs someone, that's supposed to be a hook. Blocking, saboing, Boiling Over, these aren't supposed to be an entire strategy for winning. Stopping a hook is supposed to be an extra thing survivors accomplish, not what they expect to do instead of running.
When a killer finds a way to stop gens completely, that's not a fun game, the basic objective of survivors isn't supposed to be stoppable. Stopping survivors is a bonus, but shouldn't be something that's consistantly do-able, shouldn't even be consistent.
If I bring gen progression to a halt, that's an accomplishment. If I bring all slowdown perks to bring gens to a halt, that's not an accomplishment, that's just being obnoxious. I don't want the game to be impossible for the other team, or miserable. I'm not trying to stop survivors from getting points, if anything, I'm piling them on.
And as others said, when a killer can't hook, there's no choice but to bleed survivors. Once a team shows me they don't think I should be able to play at all, that's when I camp, tunnel and bleed people out. If I can't get anyone hooked because they wanted that type of game, I have to make every hook as deadly as possible.
Once it's clear the plan is to not let me get hooks or points, the only thing left to play for is kills.
Don't yearn for a game that's too hard for killers, killers just adapt. I was here when sabos were permanent, I've played when the only hooks left were in the basement. Survivors didn't leave happy, they didn't leave at all. The game is healthier and more fun when basic objectives are possible.
But that's not the case. We are not in a state where sabo is consistent. We are in state where sabo is no longer viable even under niche scenario. It's like giving everyone basekit unlimited unbreakable and removing bleedout timer, because slugging is not core gameplay.
There's a difference between something being hard and something being impossible. Sabotaging is now going to impossible category
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@Lithi said:
This guy failed with the sabo playstyle and now he is malding
I have a lot over 1000 hours on sabotages alone. I didn't choose meta saves like current buckle up or standard flashlight saves. If you ask anyone what's the most difficult/skillful way how to play altruistically - people will mention sabotages (if they even remember they are in game) - BUT the game was never in this bad state hook-wise.
And sure enough, hook sabotages were meta - but we are talking about versions of the game when permanent sabotages were possible - I am sure you don't even known about those, because it's just that old.
I just don't get why it was important to nerf something, that was already so niche, that most people didn't care about it (that's probably the reason why I am the only person complaining here). What's the point? To alienate a small number of players that do play that? (because that's what these new maps are doing right now)
And yes - I am mad. This was my favorite part when playing survivors so yes - the game has no more appeal to me. I am not going to hold M1 whole game on generator and I find comp playing (after trying it out) super boring.
It's like someone decided to add 30s cooldown to switching between Charlotte and Victor. Most people will not mind (and some survivors would be happy because they don't enjoy playing against Twins ever), because "nobody" plays Twins anyway. But it's still not healthy or reasonable change.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560665#Comment_3560665
Let's bring a tool box. Even after being attacked, you can surely destroy the hook by destroying it again.
If you bring a Breakout, the survivors who have been carried by the killer can get out.
If you can't solve it alone, another person should solve it. What are the four survivors for?
Do not try to solve anything free of charge. You may be beaten by the killer until you fall, and you can get the time for the survivors carried by the killer to get out.
I know and experienced an example of survivors who have escaped from the killer many times. And it also includes the wisdom comparison with the killer, so if I fail, I am convinced that I am the bad.
You have the freedom to doubt me, but you can find many precedents on YouTube.
YOU ABSOLUTELY IGNORE WHAT I WROTE.
AGAIN. You overtake killer. You sabotage hook. You take hit. Killer is still able to get to next hook. How does taking quicker toolbox change anything about that one?
Rancid abbbatoir is now so dense that even if u do this AND have breakout, it still does not matter
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560494#Comment_3560494
Stand in an advantageous position. The game collapses when survivors overtake the killer from behind.
Again. That does not matter. You overtake him. You sabotage hook killer was going for. Killer hits you once and you got away. Now there's nothing more you can do - but killer can still easily go to yet another hook.
What gives? Sabotaging is just dead. Going for sabotages is now throwing. Because hook density
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559545#Comment_3559545
Hell even 4 seconds of it following you would be OK, but 30 seconds uptime is just stupid.
Of course I nitpick and say technically it's a 60s cooldown, but considering comparable perks like:
- Hex: Face The Darkness is every 25s, has a condition outside the killer control (injure a survivor), can be cleansed and has no additional effect.
- Thwack requires a hook, triggers on breaking a pallet or wall, and gives a 4s aura read.
- Infectious Fright requires a survivor to be down actually inside the terror radius with a 6s aura read.
I feel like Ultimate Weapon being on a 60s cooldown with a 4s scream aura and 30s blindness is still strong but actually requires intelligent use instead of being totally free. I'd argue the blindness could be a little shorter, but I'd have no major complaints with the perk in this state, and actually consider running it on my killers to not feel like a dirt bag.
make it active for 4s and I am perfectly fine with very strong but fair tracking perk
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Maybe people here don't realize the changes that happened.
What just happened is the same as if killers got new perk that allows them to fully block windows from distance and instabreak pallets (buff to sabotage, breakout, bg player) - but at the same time survivor was sped up to 120% (while keeping killers at 110/115%). Like why bother with such a new perks when you know there's nothing you can do, because survivor can just hold-W for you to never catch him (in case of sabotaging - killer is able to get to next hook no matter how well you sabotage).
I really mean it - if we want to keep sabotages THIS BAD, what's the reason in keeping the mechanic in game? It's pure bait of even trying to play for sabotages. It would be more honest from developers to remove possibility to sabotage altogether
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560479#Comment_3560479
Saboing is meant to be niche, if you have an area where a hook is already gone from a sacrifice or its a map corner etc then you can do a sabo play every so often. But I beg lets not buff saboing so its actually a viable consistent thing, I just want to hook my survivors please.
The issue isn't how it used to work. Saboing was niche.
All I am saying is, that with current changes saboing is no longer niche. Saboing is basically impossible now (with exception to getting one of the old maps where it still remains it's old niche).
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560450#Comment_3560450
Understand that the hook is separated from the second floor and the first floor.
Also, understand that sabotage is not a guarantee of success in brain death, but only a remedy.
Understand the aim of the killer and predict where you want to hang. Killer wants to hang it on a tactically effective hook, not just trying to suspend survivors on a nearby hook.
"It's a your skills issue"
I do get that they are separated. Do u understand that the map size is calculated as addition of bottom size and top size? Where bottom is ~4000 square meters and top 3000 square meters? And you have 7 hooks on each floor, but theoretical reach is ~11000 square meters compared to those 4000/3000 square meters....
What I am saying here is, that sabotages should not be guaranteed. But we have opposite problem - sabotages are now guaranteed to fail no matter what. They are pure bait to even try to sabotage with current state of game (provided you don't get one of the old maps where sabotages still work - for now). This does take into account killer making a mistake and wrongly predicting where survivor is going to sabotage hook - because even successful sabotage means nothing if killer has still enough time to go for next hook.
Also it can't be skill issue if there's no way how to get it right. Your "skill issue" is the same as killer's "skill issue" to play around old (total instead of current) boil over when going to old RPD library upper floor. There's mathematical certainty to wiggle out (old boil over) / get to hook (current new maps) no matter what you do
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@xltechno said:
saloon 9 (at most 11)
midwitch 14 (If it is divided between the upper and lower layers, if one layer is 7)
new rancid abbatoir 10 (at most 11)
macmillan estate 10 (at most 12)
Counted it. So?
Please tell me why hooks exist every 5m.
Hooks do exist every few meters. Do you realize what 14 hooks on Midwitch with it's 7000 square meters means? What 9 hooks on saloon with 8700 square meter means? That hooks are never directly in the corner? That wiggle time is 16s which means killer can walk for 59m (covering about 10886 square meters of map if we disregard obstacles and map edges). New MacMillans are also tiny so if it's really 10, 11 or 12 hooks, it still means you have "unlimited" access to most of the hooks.
I will say it again - if survivor goes down under 1 hook, killer does not notice and goes for another hook and that hook gets sabotaged - if killer is still able to get to YET ANOTHER hook, then sabotages are totally and absolutely dead. Because there's no way how to sabotage better. It means killer will always get to the hook no matter what. That's basically equivalent of survivors having safe pallet every (killer pallet breaking time is 2.7s*4m/s of survivor speed) 10,8m. That just means killer has no chance whatsoever.
This is current state of sabotages for new maps right now
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@xltechno said:
The Raccoon City Police and the midwich have 14 hooks, but almost 9 or 10 on other maps (revealed in volunteers).
Is this the theory that the number of hooks is large? many? Really?
Count hook density on saloon, midwitch, new rancid abbatoir or new mac millans. As I said already - sabotages with new remakes (I wonder about shttered square, but given the trend I expect it to have also hook every 5m) of maps make sabotages pure survivor bait. Try it out in customs. I am sure you will conveniently be able to go around 3 hooks without any worries - and 3 hooks means sabotages are meaningless
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560395#Comment_3560395
If you pop the gen the second someone gets downed (before the Killer finishes their hit recovery), they can run instantly. I've seen people do it in the past, and coordinated Adren on down pops with friends as well. To be fair, maybe they changed something somewhat recently, but if they haven't, then the person's perk isn't wasted because now they are back up with a 5s Sprint Burst while the Killer is still in hit recovery. I haven't done it recently so I'm not in the know, because I've been fun coordinating back to back Blast Mines instead with friends, or just normal tomfoolery. Essentially I thought (last I used it in this specific circumstance) Adrenaline bypasses the down animation, and you can run instantly even if you were falling over.
I swapped adrenaline for breakout since 7.1.0 (to counter new hook density) so that's how fresh my information is. But talking about things from 7.0.0 - if survivor finishes gen right as you go down, you will be stuck in down animation and then a moment later killer will always be able to down you again. If killer does not expect adren, he will actually miss the timing and you will escape (but you will only get like 2.5s of your 5s sprint). But if he notices in HUD or expects it, you will be unable to get away and he can down you. 100% sure of this.
However, there is possibility to slightly postpone fixing the generator (fix gen in about 1,5-2s after survivor got downed). If you fix it like this, then survivor will not be stuck in down animation and will get adrenaline immediately where killer won't be able to abuse it. Another possibility survivor can do when he knows what's going to happen is to point as you go down - this will also skip down animation and you will get adrenaline immediately.
But I am 100% sure that before 7.1.0 (and I presume they didn't change it) if someone fixes gen immediately after killer downs someone AND killer is aware, then adrenaline is wasted perk slot as it buys just 1 more hit cooldown animation's worth of time.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560033#Comment_3560033
Even though this would only spawn if no one is dead, and is only active while no one is on hook/in the dying state, and fully despawn after a death? I feel like a NOED cleanse (or pre-cleanse at 1 gen remaining) isn't the most difficult task to ask for a 4 escape.
As far as the 'handed free kills in endgame', that still only most commonly affects a single Survivor, as it is very rare to have 2-3 Survs running around with OTR/DS, especially going into endgame. When multiple people are on hook, it generally is a better idea to 99 the gen and have someone tap it strategically on a down, just in case they have Adren.
This is offtopic, but I really should correct you just in case. If you finish gen right as the person with adrenaline goes down, you are just wasting his perk slot. There's a down animation and adrenaline will get postponed long enough so, that killer can hit same survivor again - which means you just robbed him of perk slot. It's better to pop the gen before the survivor goes down or once he is already on hook (so that he will be healthy on unhook).
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@Anti051 said:
You can't have the game setup to be easy to score gens, but hard to score hooks.
With gens being as fast as they are, one successful sabotage can ruin the killer's shot at winning. It might feel really good when you succeed at sabotage, but it can't be made easier, not with gen times being what they currently are.
But you don't get it. If you get new map, you don't have to ever think about sabotages ever any more. They are now impossible. Even perfect sabotage with breakout and taking hit is not enough, because you will still have ample time to just go to next hook.
Sabotage mechanics is just pure bait at this point. The best use case you can get (if you are lucky with hook spawns) is to deny scourge hook. But you will never deny hook altogether.
Developers are really mean with this one. On one hand they buff saboteur and bg player with increasing wiggle progress with breakout and on the other hand they make sabo saves impossible with hook density. Like what is this stupid thing?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559584#Comment_3559584
Then the proper solution to this problem is to remove the infection gain from M2's that hit a survivor during their unhook basekit BT.
I don't argue with this one.
Should survivors get (considerably) more time to get infected while being tunneled if they make no mistake, I think Wesker would actually be perfect killer. I think this is the only issue with the killer (there are killers with worse issue then this)
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@[Deleted User] said:
Really, just had a game. I was downed next to a hook that was broken because someone had already been sacrificed on that hook. Killer took me to the next nearest hook that someone was able to sabo in time and the killer was still able to carry me to a third hook. On most maps, hook spawns are just fine.
This is the issue. Sabotages are dead. Dev team decided to soft-delete it but keep it in game just as bait mechanics. It would be better if they admitted it openly and removed the mechanics completely.
Aparently sabotages were too OP and needed removal so devs came to rescue /s
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Remove sabotages. They are now meaningless. Why keep the mechanics in current broken form?
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@BlightedTrapper said:
People really think Background Player is too weak? It's a fantastic choice for pallet/flashlight saves and sabotaging. I could think of dozens and dozens of perks FAR more in need of buffs.
Check all the new maps. Sabotaging is dead. Even 30s 500% speed background player won't matter
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@Crowman said:
There needs to be a lot of hooks, because the killer's main way to kill survivors is by hooking them.
Sure. But why are we even having sabo mechanics in the game at this point? There's no more point to it if devs decide it's good idea to have a hook every 8m. Sabotaging at this point is pure bait on survivors to take meaningless perks that don't do anything, because even successful sabo results in hook. It's like having successful flashlight save that has 90% chance of not doing anything, because it's good idea to basekit give intermittent lightborn for 4 out of every 5s.
Every map rework goes waaay overboard with hook density. I know many people don't care, because not that many people play sabo, but given current situation they should remove the mechanics, because it's just bait
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559584#Comment_3559584
Weird, it has been ages since I last saw that addon. I usually see Crank+Tendril, Gloves, Vial and Unicorn, maybe an Egg or a Beetle gamer.
If they have VCR, you need to leave asap and make them work hard. Having a can beforehand helps a lot.
Oh that means just 1 thing. U r not facing hardcore tunnelers but killers that actually want to play the game instead of just winning it every time