Gandor
Gandor
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533227#Comment_3533227
Those clips are literally my second day with him, maybe game number 5-6 (I didn't count them), and I'm testing angles and in what loops I can get away with hitting with his attack. That doesn't change the fact that in this second day I already have seen people dodging it successfully and using turrets in an effective way, in contrast with my first day where it was basically free hits as they always got the turrets in places that was easy for me to destroy or avoid while in chase.
And about the 50% speed, I would agree if it wasn't because you can literally take his power away. If your power can be taken away and it is a complete burden to use it when you got it, we would be closer to another Singularity case.
I'm not even saying he doesn't need changes (maybe make the audio cue more obvious so people can hear it easily), but people wants to nerf it before even having the chance to really learn how to play as / against it, and in a couple of weeks more good survivors would be making the Alien sweat to get hits with his tail as they make Nemesis have to work to get his hits with the whip.
The power can be "theoretically" taken away. In reality 1 addon makes it "impossible" (meaning you can loose it only if you choose to loose it).
Like this is the result of me playing the killer (and I don't blame them - the hits I got were pretty disgusting)
Notice I don't even use any turret addon to make it little bit more fair. Still... I don't blame them (2 were deadhook, 2 had 1 hook, no camp or tunnel, just Xeno play)
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This clip just shows you can't use the ability effectively yet. You are trying to directly hit over obstacles (and miss fair share of those of course - that's hard). If you were dragging cursor down, all those misses would be easy hits.
Also people complain that his CD is too short - but technically this is wrong. 3s are indeed long time. What people don't realize is, that the problem is, that xeno can very quickly follow you because of 50% speed during miss CD = you are not really punished for missing hit
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533173#Comment_3533173
I do think the skill floor on disabling turrets is too low, especially with the add ons. And a big part is that Xeno simply doesn't have many decent add ons as it is, so the turret ones are the obvious choice.
The all-or-nothing nature of them is the issue I think. Turrets exist as a counter to the killers power by limiting uptime, and need to strike a balance between 0% reduction and 100% reduction. There's skill expression on the survivors side in terms of turret placement, which has a low skill ceiling, and skill expression on the killers side in terms of hitting the turrets fast enough, which currently has a low skill floor, which puts that uptime-reduction needle very close to 0%. But alter these too much as you drastically shift that needle from 0% to 100% very easily.
Actually if u use 0 turret addons, then indeed good placement vs good pathing in turret area can knock xeno out of it.
But as u said - everyone uses 1 of the addons so turrets are meaningless right now.
So the thing to fix it is your proposition from another threat, or deleting all those addons or keeping turrets meaningless, but nerfing his tail (but the tail is fun the way it is, so I would rather buff turrets)
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GoJ is fair so long as we have Midwitch. Borgo is fair so long as we have saloon. Also borgo is very free for a few killers
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532980#Comment_3532980
Xenomorph's range is 4.8m and survivors have the ability to knock him out of his crawler mode.
Theoretical possibility to knock him out*
If you run 1 of several perks that make turrets weaker, you can reliably destroy them on reaction no matter the placement.
The only real possibility is to double-up on turrets which is throwing time-wise
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A spear you can control during and with some limitation after it's been thrown.
From what I experienced so far, find best loops in game, prethrow when u have insane distance or hope xeno is bad. Those are your only options
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This perk just means that BHVR no longer cares about survivors that don't want to chase + last survivor is pretty much screwed + flash saves are pretty much impossible.
I don't know who makes decisions like this at BHVR, but so be it. It does not bother me that bad as I don't play flashlights or hide that much. But god the decisions to boot so big part of their player base (or force them to use current ######### version of calm spirit)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532913#Comment_3532913
1) Xeno can't hit 2 pixel holes. The hitbox is way bigger than that, which is why some people complain that the tail attack can easily get stuck on the environment. And you wouldn't be able to drag attack to a hole anyway, because the attack stops if it hits anything.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HMFDK8BQFKXV/image.png
2) If the killer positions properly near a dropped pallet, then they get way more than 2 pixels of the survivor. Look at the above screenshot. That's the survivor trying as hard as possible to crouch at the tall side of a dropped pallet, but the killer knew they should be diagonally at the short side of a dropped pallet.
3) Hatchet windup is not relevant to this conversation. We're discussing whether or not dragging Xeno's M2 makes a noticeable difference, with how easy it is to aim the M2.
1, fair point - I exaggerated with 2px hole, but still the hole does not need to be even close to the size of hatchet
2, this is it - huntress needs to angle herself, xeno does not have to. This is huge during chase as you leave much less chances for survivor to get away
3, ok. If we limit it to the effect of dragging only, then my point 2 is all that is relevant. And maybe one point for you is, that xeno can't orbital strike (but c'mon, nobody uses this reliably - it's just a fun thing u can do when you get so lucky and it works). Still - it's much easier to hit reliably say over car loops w xeno then with huntress (because hubtress gets her hatchet consumed by edge of top of the car so damn often or it flies over, where xeno has it trivial to overshoot and drag down a little)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
how does it screw soloq bad? most maps have center generator. a center generator means that you get center control station. turret can be deploy from any control station. max is 4 turrets. the basic logic is that you can put turrets in center loops. that is why scott argument makes no sense because... your going to center control station, setting up 2 turrets on center pallet. your not going in the corner of a map, picking up a turret and walking entire map with a turret to set it up. your taking nearest control station and walking to nearest pallet to set it up. It is little bit like playing trapper as survivor. After that, you just run to the turret when you get chased. you knock off runner mode with very little time investment. the killer has to deal with double turrets. maybe he breaks a pallet. if he chases as m1 killer, then it is easy to loop.
after he talks about how you can go in tunnels to recharge your power and how your not losing any distance. well here's an idea... just stand between two control stations in the center. if xeno goes out on top location, you run other way. if he goes south, you go north. if he goes to any other control station, then there should be a turret near the gen so you get free distance because your running through turret and xeno has to path around it or break it. you will likely get notification by HUD that another survivor who was on a generator is being chased. in end game, when there are 3 gens... you can just stack all turrets in 1 area.
i think it is more that survivor is not understand how to use turrets to their advantage. you really do not need loop xeno in tail form the entire game. you can mostly just spam turrets. they have 60 second respawn time. it was 45 second in the PTB.
He actually explained it plain and simple. If you need to double-up, you have effectively 2 turrets and HUGE time investment (so huge that it's net positive for killer).
My argument is, that on top of it the need to double up would screw soloQ, because it requires way more awareness/knowledge for soloQ then SWF. Making the killer another soloQ stomper
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532728#Comment_3532728
This is how Huntress has worked for years, and Huntress needs to deal with projectile arcs. Anyone that has played Huntress for a while should be fine with just properly aiming Xeno's M2.
...They would also know that if you want to hit a survivor behind a pallet, that 1) it matters if the survivor is ducking next to the tall half or the short half of the dropped pallet, and 2) it matters if the killer realizes they are supposed to be on the short side of the dropped pallet, so they have a diagonal angle to the survivor, so there's way more than "2 pixels" available. Like, killers aren't supposed to be on the tall side of a dropped pallet, and try to M2 a survivor that's ducking on the tall side of the dropped pallet.
Huntresses hatchet hitbox is waaaaaaay larger. She can't hit 2px holes like xeno can (it's even quite difficult to hit survivor that crouches behind tall side of dropped pallet like you mentioned if you don't throw from angle - unlike xeno that can semi-reliably hit it with dragging his M2 - even if you see just 2px once you practiced it enough). She can't drag her hatchet to adjust or hit behind corners (on good ping) the way xeno can. And her hatchets have speed which is low until fully charged - compared to Xeno's hit-scan.
Also and this is very important, huntress has long wind-up time where she is slow - allowing you to dodge her hatchets (that's something people asked for btw) - and slow speed if she holds or misses her hatchet for a proper risk to use her m2 (unlike Xeno's barely slap on a wrist with his 2m/s). Speaking of which - she is 110% killer to even compensate. IDK if you would be ok with alien being 110% and having lullaby.
Maybe this is the difference though. I have yet to see survivor being able to fully hide behind pallet against xeno, but I totally do that against huntress (and huntress gives me even considerably more time to even hide in a first place)
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Well. That's it though. You can try to dodge, but it will just stay at that. Trying.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532465#Comment_3532465
I'm still waiting for a video that shows us a Xeno M2, where dragging the power actually makes a difference. Every video I've seen so far, looks like Xeno could have gotten the same hits of they had just aimed the power correctly. And dragging the power gives the survivor more time to dodge the attack, compared to just aiming the power properly and skipping the dragging motion.
Technically you are right. But I want to see you getting reliable hit when you see 2 pixels of the head from survivor over the loop. Sure, you can directly aim and hit it without dragging, but it's infinitelly easier to overshoot and drag down.
Same with survivor hiding behind pallet or crouching behind window.
Also the time difference is literally something like 50ms or maybe a little more - that's not enough for survivor to seriously move away his hitbox
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532465#Comment_3532465
If the hitbox connects with any obstacle, it disables. Dragging can screw you over just as much as not dragging. As opposed to Nemesis' tentacle that's 4 individual hitboxes, each of which computes individually.
That is problem so rarely, it's not even funny. Because in this regards those short 4.8m helps. I already can quite reliably hit people hiding behind pallets (even if they move towards tall part of it) and about 50% hit over tall-ish obstacles (dragging is brutal for this to "fix" your aim).
You really just need more practice with dragging. Nemi is very much laughable in comparison (and I am not even considering crouching after vaulting) + the fact you can control M2 freely even after pushing M2 (so going left or right after vault is also meaningless - in short, don't vault if you don't have A LOT of time after it) makes the killer so insane
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@Seraphor said:
No other killer has a counter mechanism to deny their power entirely. Xenomorph is not the same as all of those other killers with easily dodgable special attacks. Turrets exists explicitly to allow Xeno to have a more oppressive special attack.
I'm going to quote this comment again:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532318#Comment_3532318
I've made a topic that recognises multiple real issues with The Xenomorph and suggests fair nerfs that would alleviate these and make the killer more fair for survivors to play against as is intended by the killers design, by interacting with Turrets instead of running loops conventionally.
I don't think that's unreasonable.
But you've decided to come in here and make it all about you.
That quote just means the game is not interesting if I can't 4k semi-reliably. Yesterday I played about 10 surv games against xeno and 5 games as xeno. 9/10 I died, 5/5 times I won (well technically I didn't, because 2x I let 2 survivors out as they helped me practice those insane overloop shots once the game was clearly won). That's not healthy IMO.
But going to your nerfs - #1 is absolutely huge because of things @mizark3 mentioned. This nerf alone would create viable counter to the killer's power and would be enough on it's own (probably even with proposed half duration)
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532025#Comment_3532025
There is both a visual AND sound cue to his power, not to mention he CANNOT cancel out of it after buffering it. He has to hard commit to using it. As opposed to say, Huntress, or Nemesis, or Pyramid Head. There is also plenty of punishment to missing. He loses quite a bit of distance. It's not exactly a "strong" chase power. It's more of an antiloop power. A chase power is typically mobility oriented (or at least, allows for hits from very far away), and chase powers typically counter W holding, which Xeno can't. He does have a mobility aspect to his power (tunnels), but his tail is an antiloop, not a chase. And I'm not even sure if I would call it a "strong" one. In terms of antilooping, it's about on par with Nemesis (minus pallet breaking and with less range) and Pyramid Head (minus hitting through walls and range).
Good thing about his counterplay not being very strong. We're not talking about an exceptionally powerful chase/antiloop power like Singularity's, that needs to have some form of hefty counterplay. The guy is literally an M1 killer without it, and is a sidegrade to Nemmy/Phead with it. Not to mention neither of them have any particular counterplay to canceling out their power.
I have about 6k hours in DBD. The hitbox for his tail is probably one of the smallest and tightest in the game. As far as being hit over tall obstacles, it's due to the nature of the hitbox (it angles down). It's an extremely hard maneuver to pull off because you typically hit without LOS, but it's incredibly rewarding to hit.
Wait till you discover how to drag your power properly. You are up for a nice surprise. Xeno's M2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then nemesis's tentacle - pallet breaking and distance included.
Other thing to note is, that it takes about 400ms after clicking M2 to attack, but during half that time you are totally free to adjust and even during hit you can very well drag the hitbox - meaning what does it matter that hitbox is small when you can drag it around half the screen? (Actually it does matter - I can hit over so many loops that huntress can't and only DS can, but DS can't drag his hitbox so he actually needs precision)
Playing xeno and using these 2 things - my chases are usually very short
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TBF I realized I was using brown addon for shorter turret range. Once I removed it, I do get knocked out of power from time to time (still, it's rare and does not bother me one bit in steamrolling survivors). He will definitely need nerfs.
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@Frumpbeard said:
It has a pitiful 4.8m range, stops the moment it hits an obstacle, and no additional utility. Pyramid Head can go through walls and hit multiple Survivors at a range of 8-10.5m. Nemesis can break pallets and get 6m range, and the attack doesn't stop when it hits something so you can strafe around objects mid-swing.
When Xeno uses the tail whip, it curls upward and moves back slightly and makes a sound. I went through frame-by-frame and from hitting the button to the Survivor getting injured took around 0.7 seconds. For Nemesis, it takes 0.8 seconds including the charge time and 0.4 seconds excluding it. Nemesis can start his attack while hidden behind a wall which can give less than 0.4 seconds to react. All your complaints are invalid.
Even if you perfectly time the tail whip while coming around a corner as Xeno to try and do the same thing, your body is pointed sideways while strafing so they can see your head coming around the corner.
you know what is the biggest difference? If I am playing Xeno, I think about if it's worth to break that strong pallet (shocking - but even if it's shack). If I am playing ANY OTHER of those killers, I DO break them (talking about strong pallets only). Because Xeno can hit over most loops and thru every pallet.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
If prestige levels are going to be hidden from the killer, then they should be hidden from the survivors too. I’ve seen survivors lobby dodge because of a teammates prestige level… some people want to lobby shop for teammates that are “experienced enough on the game”.
For once I agree. Main benefit in my eyes from hiding this number before the game is lobby shopping. And survivors lobby-shop too.
If there could be an exception, it would be in SWF (you won't dodge lobby you queued up in) - but quite frankly, why bother?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/390051/dbd-is-turning-from-good-to-bad
If you are talking about Hook Spawns, yeah its getting excessive, they are too close, and it empowers Killers to camp. I sabo'd 2 hooks while taking a hit and Sprint Bursting and the Killer still reached a 3rd hook in time, but to be fair it was RPD.
If you are talking about the recent Breakout change, yeah, 5m is a nerf because laggy Killers will always get a hit with that short of range. I preferred the old 6m with slightly slower wiggle boost.
If you are talking about the great wiggle checks, then yeah, the greats do nothing other than give you more Survival BP. I think the shaving 1s off of total carry time with hitting all of the harder Greats was a better system.
MMR doesn't function if anyone backs out of a lobby, be that Killer or Survivor. Backfill ignores matchmaking. Your best bet is to back out of a lobby if multiple Killers or Survivors back out also. Wait 5-10 minutes, then queue up again. If you have missing slots in the lobby you kinda need to wait another 5-10 minutes and hope for the best.
Medkits were both nerfed in a fair, but ultimately boring manner. The difference between medkits shouldn't merely be 5% altruism rate per tier. I'd remove the self heal speed nerf on Greens, and remove the self-heal efficiency nerf on Purples and bring them back to 32 charges. That way there actually is medkit variety, instead of a Syringe on the Brown being the best medkit. That also leaves yellow's niche in the dust, but that's ok. Its sad though that Pharmacy is now strictly worse than Self-Care. It takes ~46s to heal with Self-Care, and it takes 34s just to open the chest and use the pharmacy medkit, not even including the ludicrous time to find a chest, the animation to open it and the animation to grab the medkit itself.
As for sabotages - I absolutely agree.
Funny thing though - this week I played one special Gideon where there literally was no hook reachable even without sabotage. Like I consider Gideon one of those map that are very hard to get successful sabotage in (as it usually does not suffice to sabo hook and take hit - you also need breakout and bit of luck to not get those double hooks in small room), but RNG hook generation can be very whacky sometimes.
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@Seraphor said:
So when the Tail attack can be easily dodged and missed attacks slow the Xeno down for long enough to escape, and the Tail attack is no better or worse than the Special attack from other killers like Demo, Nemo, etc.
...what will be the point of Turrets?
Why would a mediocre Special attack need a counter that removes the killer's ability to use it entirely?
Why would survivors need to waste time interacting with Turrets when they can just dodge the Tail attack?
Tail attack is supposed to be unforgiving, so that survivors are pressured to use Turrets, so that Xeno doesn't have 100% uptime. Yet Turrets have to be counterable, otherwise Xeno's power would have 0% uptime like Singularity.
If you want, there are no turrets that can't be M2'd before they get you out of power. Just focus M2 instead of M1 for turrets and tell me if you ever lost your power. So far I lost it once to double-turret where I forgot that cooling off takes some time.
I agree that you need strong ability to warrant counterplay. But counterplay that does nothing means it's not counterplay. It's waste of time.
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@Zenislev said:
This is why bad decisions like this go through. There's a whole legion of survivors who are only interested in their games going well regardless of what it does to the health of the game, who dogpile anyone who says otherwise.
The problem is - that survivor got so bad, that I play more killer then survivor these days ;) but go on with your copium that it's just survivor mains perspective
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531432#Comment_3531432
Dude, your logic isn't as good as you think and you are agreeing with me. One guy being able to win 9/10 with an unviable killer doesn't makes that killer viable. And right now, any killer without a chasing power is not viable. So, again, sorry if the arbitrary percentage I used wasn't factual and precise, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the roster can't compete and that's why you see always the same killers the moment you go up in the MMR.
But again, I have nothing more to say, so I would leave it with that.
But that's it. It's not just 1 guy... It's multiple guys and even when playing multiple games and not just 10. So if they can do it so restricted - how come it's unviable for killers that are not restricted?
But there's 1 thing I will give you - there definitely are easier and harder killers in game. Even if you are high-mmr good for blight, it absolute does not mean you are high-mmr good for trapper (let alone perkless trapper).
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So you proclaiming you would loose (are you sure?) is good reason to probably create a game where 1 side will get absolutely destroyed. Well. That's what I call being selfish
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@mikewelk said:
In my recent discussion, which was a contrast to all the "Xenomorph is balanced" dicussions, I asked about how Xenomorph's tail attack, in this state, is balanced. Here is a summary of all that happened.
. I got called an "entitled survivor main" for asking (didn't even bother arguing his point)
. Blamed for not giving Xeno time and to stop "crying for nerfs"
. The topic got deflected to the Remote Flame Turrets
. People argued that remote flame turrets are strong, slow the killer down a lot, and give you time to get to a loop as Xenos break the turrets even without a cooldown (I don't know which game they're playing)
. The Xenomorph got compared to Huntress and suddenly Huntress is OP?
. Window/pallet vault baiting is how to dodge the ability (once Xenos learn to be more patient and improve their aim, this strategy will become obsolete)
. People argued that you can react to Xeno's ability in time (the maths was done by someone proving otherwise, please tag them if you remember who and I'll edit them in)
. Dodging (when you think the tail attack will happen) was suggested as a good strategy when Xenos can just follow that mistake up with an M1
. General agreement that the ability causes lose/lose situations frequently
. People genuinely agreed on the idea of a cooldown for the tail attack
. People assumed I placed turrets on top of gens (?)
.Pre-dropping pallets counters them (most Xenos don't break pallets and just take advantage of it)
. you need distance management to counter them (distance counters every killer lol)
. Not loop in a lose/lose situation (why would a sane Xeno let me leave a loop when they HOPE I drop the pallet?)
. Run towards already placed turrets to counter (most turrets are right next to gens getting worked on)
. Hold W (crazy good advice)
. General agreement that SWF can utilize turrets well compared to solo queue
. The classic "get good" and "skill issue" comments
. Apparently not having a sound cue nor animation for the ability isn't a cause of concern
. Some people basically admit to facing new Xeno players and basing their opinion on that (no consideration on how Xeno mains will perform in the weeks to come)
. Complaining that the killer needs time to settle in (Xeno mains will only IMPROVE with time)
. The idea that the tail attack is something you can react to is very prominent (seen as a counter)
. Some general tips on how to waste a lot of time moving turrets to "strategic" locations to annoy (?) Xeno more
It is important to note that there wasn't any semi-decent answer to my question. Most people just shared their realistic perspective and argued their point which I thank them for because it just highlights how hard it is to argue that the killer is balanced even with how this forum mainly portrays him as 'balanced'. Also, every argument about the ability being balanced that got a ton of upvotes was just people telling me to get good and providing terrible advice alongside it. Typical.
agreed on all points.
I just want to note, that playing as xeno, there was exactly and precisely 1 instance where turrets got me out of power when I didn't want to let it happen - and that was when 2 turrets were placed next to each other (so survivors now have effectively 2 turrets that take more then double the time to set up if this should be the counter) and survivor was taking me to both of them (I didn't realize, that my flame time didn't went down in time so 2nd turret was destroyed too late). Also whoever is destroying turrets with M1 is doing it wrong and loosing distance for no reason
Once I learn how to hit over all obstacles, I see no counter.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531601#Comment_3531601
Pregame lobby? You mean get rid of SWF? If they got rid of SWF the game would surely die bc I like to play with friends lmao I’ve been targeted for being a SWF ghostface killed us all and let the random go bc he saw we were all friends on steam lmao it’s happened twice now 🤣🤣 or do you mean you don’t see the lobby your playing at all lmao you find out when you load into the game haha
I meant "game found" lobby. Sorry if I said it wrongly :) Basically I want to be able to click ready just 1x
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531473#Comment_3531473
It can still be used with the extra movement speed which is a huge issue when paired with STBFL, the m2 can be used as an option where a pallet comes into play, m1 for when they are in open space...
STBFL is mainly used for camping in casual play, and Xeno especially can make great use out of it when it needs to, to build up stacks, it cuts a lot of time off chase.
The fact that he can use M1 does not mean he should use it. Especially because he already moves fast while using his M2 (so it's effectively like he had a few stacks of STBFL by default on M2). All these things mean, that you get move value from other perks instead.
I haven't tried the perk on other killers - the perk could be problem on pinhead (I don't know yet). But it most definitely isn't problem for xeno as it's very much suboptimal on him.
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@lukesebb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531080#Comment_3531080
Alright, so I learned a counter to his tail, which is to just hug a circular area, since the Alien's tail has a lot of collision, you can literally loop things without windows or pallets, and take it to the edges of the map.
If this works, it's HUGE. That would be 1st real counterplay where you don't just hope killer is clumsy
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While I agree - this brings us to the second thing mentioned in the start of the video. What about making chests useful for a change after all these years? Make them quicker, less loud and remove troll items (at minimum green map & key)
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531469#Comment_3531469
Dude, I would only say that DbD changed to a dedicated server infrastructure years ago. They still left some authority to the client side, and that's why they were able to create those hacks, but as far as I know they have already changed a lot of it too and that's why we don't see as much hackers (or at least, as much hacking such as insta finish the game) as before. Also, "validation server"? Do you mean that the dedicated server that is running the game validate player input as any other game server does? Because if not, that term is incorrect in this context and makes me think that you have some base on networking, but not applied to gaming.
It makes all the sense in the world that survivors got free escapes because of their lag when the game was still P2P as the killer was the host of the game, ergo, the killer didn't had any lag as he was the middle point for the rest of players.
And of course, "Favor the shooter" is absolutely fine for a game like DbD as any action game is about reaction and other games are doing fine with those lag compensation techniques and ways. I won't argue that maybe BHVR needs to tune up it so it handles better high lag situations, but again, it's an industry standard for games like DbD to work this way.
So, yeah... keep on going if you want, but you are wrong.
There's a difference between validation server and dedicated server. Dedicated server is something that takes input and calculates state of the world and sends authoritative state to all the clients in game. Validation servers does less - it just checks timestamps and selected actions (check drop-pallet timestamp vs hit timestamp) - when comparing those, send authoritative action to all clients.
Validation servers are much simpler and has much less control over the game - even though they DO have some control.
As for your P2P - you are right that killer was server ergo 0 ping. But in case of "favor the shooter" (which is same as "favor the server truth") - what you saw from killer's perspective was ALWAYS desired behavior (because 0 lag). You could see some funky things from survivor's perspective, but killer hitting on window and not getting hit was intended interaction (minus specific bug - but now we are not talking about networking).
In case of dropping pallet - then you could be right. Because in this case "favor the shooter" is survivor dropping said pallet. But that absolutely does nothing when survivor is vaulting the window or when killer is trying to hit survivor (and it does not matter if he tries to hit him next to pallet or not). Also it's basically counterproductive for survivor too - because what does it matter that you get stun, if you get hit as well (apart from having one less pallet)?
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what @Crowman said. If your Xeno uses these perks, be happy. He could have used optimal build instead.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531420#Comment_3531420
Dude, the only thing you said there is how the client-server infrastructure works while I and the links was talking about the lag compensation techniques for action games used today in such infrastructure. It isn't something new, either. If you check the Valve one you would see that the article is from 2001.
And yes, assuming that DbD lag compensation also "favor the shooter" as everybody says (which is logical, as it is what any multiplayer and action game does to compensate lag) and have some kind of prediction method, that's why sometimes the killer is able to hit a survivor just before dropping a pallet or why even if you should have hit that survivor you don't, and get pallet dropped instead.
This doesn't change the fact that vaults never was intended to give you immunity to hits even at the other side, as again, you are still in range of the killer attack hitbox through and unblocked and open space. And the only reason of why some players that had played in the old times thinks otherwise, was because they were getting free saves because of the lag when the game was still P2P and even now days it still happen from time to time. That's the reason of getting hit now in a vault and think it is a "bs hit", just as the "new fast vault" being bugged (we don't know if because lag compensation or something related with hitboxes, but bugged after all) and believing that is how vaults should work.
Anyway, glad that you learned something new today.
DBD is built as P2P game. And it does not work the way most games are made. Most games send what player is doing and let server decide. DBD sends what player saw that happened. That is the easiest reason why you very simply create cheats of people instantly hooking or escaping from trial or why you can literally still get hit even after you move several steps after you completed vault if killer's ping is exceptionally bad (and no solution from your links would allow THIS BAD interactions).
The reason why you now sometimes don't get hit (even if you see blood) at pallets and get hit instead was inclusion of validation servers. That was good step forward, but it very much shows that validation servers are afterthought and that things that come to server are still "what player sees" instead of "what player does" (+ letting server decide what to do with it).
Also "favor the shooter" is absolutely horrendous strategy in case of DBD. Because lags favor "shooter" 2 times. The game is about reaction so if killer has bad ping, survivor has less time to react to killer (because he sees what he does later) AND get hit even if he gets to safety. All those FPS tactics and networking libraries were designed to minimize feeling of unfairness as much as humanly possible. That means you should absolutely not reward someone (twice) for having bad ping.
So you saying players had free escapes in case of P2P makes absolutely no sense (as pure P2P means killers sees hit so it's hit even if everyone else involved in game see that survivor 50m away from that spot). In those time lagswitch meant you could hit anyone any time just by disabling your net for a few seconds (but short enough to not get DC)
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530538#Comment_3530538
I'm not putting in doubt their MMR, I'm saying that even me, who can't be sure to be in high MMR or not, had "streaks" of wins on occasion and that proves nothing, even less when we can't even know the real skill of those we play against.
And on a related note, those doubts would instantly go away if them started to show you your MMR and those of your opponents, so we would be sure in what MMR bracket we experience some things. But that's another topic... in fact, all of this are, as this post was about the experiences with the game right now and I just gave my opinion on it including my take with the survivor side, but whatever.
They specifically started with this challenge at their current MMR without any preparation. It's not like they played 1000 games and picked 10-game window to say "this is the result of my streak".... If it's so consistent across multiple (admittedly VERY VERY VERY good players) - then that actually does prove, that even in high MMR you can win most of the games with even basic killer without using ability/camp/tunnel/slug/addons.
Does it mean it's realistic to expect from everyone and that the game should be balanced around it? Hell no. Those players are insanely good. You can't benchmark from best players on one side and consider it norm. But saying 90% of the killer roster unviable is just wrong (see you are even allowed to use ability/addons/all the tactics in the world) and this video is actually very good proof why.
Or to say it in another way - if you personally can't win with weaker killer in high mmr, that's skill issue (and that is OK - I can say the same thing about me - I would definitely struggle with pig or legion or trapper in high MMR - but that's skill issue on my part).
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@Frumpbeard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531163#Comment_3531163
I've seen Plague wipe out entire teams in the first minute of the match with the starting fountain and Discordance or Lethal Pursuer. And she can bring two apples for two more starting fountains.
0.375s for the minimum charge isn't that long, and Xeno does have a 0.2s windup. Also she can hold the vomit in her mouth while moving at 110% then choose to vomit when she wants without warning. The vomit is slow but it's a spray so you can flick your head back and forth to hit in a cone.
If you're in a loop with Hag, she can place a trap, chase you into the trap, then instantly teleport and hit you guaranteed.
The point is that these Killers are not considered overpowered even with add-ons.
But you see - I consider plague fair exactly because she has her power limited, because she has double the windup time and because she is slowed down when holding the power. There are very clear counterplays (like short rock loop is POG against plague). It's not just about killer screwing up with his ability.
When plague wins in first minute - then good for plague and skill issue on survivor's side.
Sure, Xeno basically can't do that in 1 minute if survivors don't try to loose that quickly. But playing against Xeno feels like being a bot - you don't play and it's all about if killer learns his hits over all the obstacles in game.
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The first link you posted is exactly what I WAS TALKING ABOUT - with 1 simple caveat - it does not compare to what server sees right now, but instead what server thinks you saw when you were doing action (plus it's also talking about optimistic updates + server being authority that can invalidate you - btw that's also what is being explained in video you included).
Read the link you actually posted.
As for the video - they themselves talk about favoring the shooter until something interesting happens (like using ability and so on) - so in case DBD adopted same thing - you get reliable hits so long as survivor does not vault window or drop pallet or does something like that - and in case he does something like this - it's reverted back to what the client (meaning survivor) did instead of what killer saw + even "favor the shooter" is limited in time so that you can't abuse very high ping.
So again - watch the video you link yourself.
Still - thanks for the link. Apparently things did change from the time I was interested in netcode and server-state is no longer THE king in every single possible situation.
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Please do not bring back that broken washing machine
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530566#Comment_3530566
Tell me you don't know anything about gaming networking without telling me you doesn't.
The server favors the "PoV" of the killer because that's how any game with a minimum of lag compensation works. It's called "favoring the shooter", as it was something designed mainly for FPS.
What this does is prevent the cases where you would shoot someone during 2 seconds without dealing any damage and the other person would be able to kill you because their info got to the server before your info, even if you started shooting first. That's why unless the difference of time between the two packets getting to the server is abysmal (or in other words, one of the players is lagging like hell) and assuming there isn't a problem with packets getting lost, the server analyze the situation and says "Oh wait, this player shooted the other first" and corrects the situation on both ends. This can also provoke what I call "Corner-turning bullets", where you try to get behind a wall while someone is shooting you and even if you see that you get there you got killed anyway. But, in a FPS this is something that you have to endure knowing that when it is the reverse situation you would be the one favored.
Now, all this is how it works in a dedicated server architecture. But there is also another problem, specially when games were P2P (peer to peer), as in that architecture even if there is a host acting as middle point, every single player (peer) was responsible of receiving, processing and sending their info to the other players (hence, "peer to peer" connection). What do you think would happen if when one player sent to another the info that he was shooting him, that other player had so much lag that the packets just get lost and never receives it? That's right! He would be invincible and not receive any damage, as his client never get the packets that said he was getting hurt.
That's why back in the day one common form of hacking was using a "lag switch", because having lag was an advantage in many cases. And, that is most than probably why the survivor in that gif wasn't getting hit when he should have: Because he was lagging, and his client never received the packets that indicated that he should have being hurt.
So, it is you and the ones that thinks like you who should stop coping, as if the server said that you have being hit then most than probably it's because you have being hit, as in the end it doesn't matter who had the lag in the first place as the server compensates for this. Also, I'm going to bet that is one of the reasons they removed the "new" fast vaults, as the lag compensation wasn't working as intended and survivors got instant immunity the moment they started vaulting.
This is total BS and no FPS (or even moba) that is remotely popular/big works this way. Any reasonable game uses server as the sole authority.
You send packets of what you are doung (shooting at direction X) and the server sends info to targeted player "you got hit", because server decides if you were shooting in the air or at the target.
This way if you have bad ping, you suffer all the time. If you have good ping, you have advantage, because you see more correctly where your enemy actually is + your actions get executed quicker - which means you are less likely to target place where there's nobody any more (and if you have perfect ping, you never ever get hit behind the corner - you can only get shot behind the corner if you have bad ping and the info that you are going behind the corner arrives at server too late = server will say you are not behind the corner).
I have no idea where you even came up with your idea of networking. That could indeed work only in p2p games, but they will always suffer from cheaters and bs hits - because without server authority it's super-hard to address cheating (I am not saying there's no cheating with servers, but it's much easier to address them when you have servers)
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These were exactly my points. I still can't figure out how to play against it - so now I play as it and watch what survs do against me.
Right now I feel like when I master his tail whip, I will start my first win streak.
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@Frumpbeard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528781#Comment_3528781
Everything you described sounds really pathetic and weak compared to Plague with her power. 1.5s cooldown and 0.375-1.5s charge time, only a tiny slowdown when charging, firing, and recovering, AoE ranged ability that can shoot up and over high walls, she can just aim in the general direction of your team and shake her head around while firing to damage everyone at once. And yet, she's only ever received buffs, and nobody thinks she's S-tier.
1, plague does not have her power available 90% of the match. In fact meta play against her is to not cleanse so she exactly does not have her power. Being injured is preferable.
2, her power needs long charging and her puke is slow. Hitting over obstacles is hard. You can even often dodge her on reaction (depending how well she shoots).
Xeno hits almost immediatelly and his tail is hit-scan, his miss CD is not punishing at all, has his power on almost all the time, can recharge it quickly, has better map traversal and tracking and can hit over obstacles.
Comparing plague to xeno is funny. They are nothing alike.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530479#Comment_3530479
10 games. I also had whole afternoons of pure winning and then 2 days of not being able to get a 1K. That's precisely what I'm saying. Let's do that challenge for a whole week on stream and let's see what happens.
Also, I think he said the words "decent survivor" a couple of times while also criticizing how other do things that they shouldn't (I saw it one of those times you posted it, but I don't have time now to rewatch it to confirm) and that's also what I'm saying, going against decent survivors that know what they are doing.
I don't know why you think that video is definitive proof of... well, anything, to use it as an argument so many times, but you do you.
Hens played 10 games in his MMR - I don't know about you, but I think he most definitely IS high MMR. Nightlight played 37 games out of which he won 34. You have also other streamers like this. Do you really think these people have low MMR?
IDK but knowing the mentality of players exactly like knightlight (not him specifically, but other comp players most definitely) - try to go to his stream and tell him you think him low MMR (or whatever else you suggest) - see how long it takes for him to ask you to go 1v1 against you and how long you last...
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@Batusalen said:
Well, that's what you get when they make decisions that leaves 90% of the killer roster unviable and the only way of pressuring survivors is using the unholy trinity of strategies they don't like.
So yeah, even for me that don't play survivor as much have had this experience when I did, and also the inverse. That's why I don't play as much at all recently.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530450#Comment_3530450
That statement is true for high MMR matchmaking as well. But if it makes you happy, I can say "70% of the roster" instead, so it's not an exaggerated number.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaR-9_Vjp3s@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530455#Comment_3530455
Yeah, I also get 4Ks with Trapper from time to time. That doesn't means that the moment you get decent and efficient survivors with meta perks you should be thankful of getting a 2K after sweating blood with him most of the time.
Do you think Hens is low MMR? Or KnightLight?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530299#Comment_3530299
Who participated in the tournament? Was it the top comp teams as well? Because otherwise I don't know what it showed in that regard...
I have vague memory, but if I remember right, it was oracle vs some other super-strong comp team. But it's long time ago so I am not 100% sure about my statement
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530283#Comment_3530283
I sure got some bad Xeno's that can be looped. But once they learn how to drag the whip over all the loops, it's gg.
right... i do not agree. long chases are possible vs xeno.
than we have to agree to disagree
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@Phantom_ said:
If they implement it the whole concept of 'prestiging' would lose its meaning and appeal. Why would anyone P100 any character then? Considering the fact that you're not getting anything skins/charm-related out of P100-ing anyway.
Why do you think that's the case? The feature should be only about hiding that number to fellow teammates/killer before the match starts. You can even show it after the match if all you care about that. It's just about reducing lobby dodging by both killers (survivors have high prestige) and survivors (teammates have low prestige). It's not about charms or skins or anything else
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530286#Comment_3530286
Artist is debateable 4th or 5 th best killer in the game. Even if they are quite even it is still kind of boring to just rush through the objective like that... I don't know I would prefer the game to be more on the chase and less on the macro game.
sure. Agreed. But that one was a test. And it clearly showed that the game is balanced even for highest MMR (by the fact, that both sides had broken-OP things at disposal). Which is very good. There were a lot of people saying killer is unplayable at high MMR...
Right now most broken things for both sides disappeared. I wonder how the test would look like now - but if it's anything like the last results (just with longer matches with more looping and less camping as there are less OP things) - then that would be good.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530123#Comment_3530123
He literally comments on the play in the sense of "People will be saying why are the survivors not winning those pallets?" You're not supposed to win those pallets, this is a top tier spirit, you're not gonna win those pallets" The whole reason why he was surprised when the spirit got stunned is because it is so rare, and when it basically never happens then can you even consider it as something you can do? Dying under the pallet is ofc a thing though.
As for the no restrictions thing, I think there was a tournament once like a year ago or so? I think ScottJund made a video on it, I'm sure you can find it eventually. But I don't think so, it just shows that some things should not be in the game, like busted items and addons for example.
I know that video and saw it. Funny thing is - those ended up pretty even. And this was also counting in artist and not just blight/nurse/spirit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530197#Comment_3530197
No. The game is boring if it's just about hold-W and predrop. The game is fun, when there's possibility for mindgames and looping.
Xeno going around drop pallets is looping and mindgames. in term of pallet breaking, that is likely an issue because throughout dbd history, the dev have reduced the time to break pallets making pallet breaking more rewarding than looping. like a lot of the time, it is simply faster to break pallets then loop around them to get hits. I do not see how this is Xeno problem.
i have not played against xeno as survivor enough times to judge but i have escaped all xeno's because my team are generally gen efficient. your post sounds like a skill issue.
Right now I see it that you a, get bad xeno b, prerun so much you can safely predrop c, get hit. In these conditions - I will leave the loop immediately - because I know that going around the loop means hit with less distance then if I hold-W away. THAT IS SAD quite frankly. It means no chases or mindgames are possible, or you go against someone who doesn't know how to use the ability yet (and drag it over all the loops and things).
I sure got some bad Xeno's that can be looped. But once they learn how to drag the whip over all the loops, it's gg.
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@albertoplus said:
The fun fact is someone did a reddit post that debunked the "prestige doesn't mean skill" and showed that the higer the prestige, the better the survivor was. Of course there were some cases where the survivor were not that good and that, but on most of the cases, the higher prestige players played much, much better than the lower ones.
But anyways there didnt really need to be anything to debunk. More prestige = more BP spent = more hours spent in the game.
Unless you say you are absolutely bad at the game and still have P100, which proves this point even further. If you are bad what do you mean? That you get pretty low BP on every game? Then the hours you have at the game are insanely high.
So yeah, even when people dont want to admit it, its just logic. More prestige = more skill.
well. Once I finished my P100 claudette, I started Ada - which is P20. So if u see me - do you consider me bad even if I have P100 that I don't play with?
And I relatively don't play that much. A friend of mine has P100 Nea, P100 Meg, P100 Adam, P100 Ace, P80 Laurie - yet he will take new survivor to the lobby with low prestige. Does that mean HE is noob?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529910#Comment_3529910
But this is the main issue - once you learn to play Xeno well, there's literally NOTHING as a survivor you can do to even try to loop him. You will just get hit on almost every loop in a game - and for those loops where you don't get hit immediately, you still need to pre-drop immediately.
that is how pallet should be. they should mindgame tools to outsmart the killer. the summary of your post is that if killer is really good at playing their killer, the killer should go on 5 gen chases. I don't think you should ever going on 5 gen chases as survivor unless killer player is like brand new and just misses swings out in the open or something.
Like try to play against that and tell me any possible counterplay against good xeno. Because I see literally nothing you can do. The only thing you can hope for is getting the game (possibly the only map that consists of only tall structures with pallets you can predrop). Any other map is instant gg against xeno that learned his whip.
you sound like your asking for 100% reliable ocunter-play that always wins.... like super safe pallets that block your way. inherently, counter-play is meant to not be reliable. that is very thing that killer dislike playing against. safe stuff. it is almost like you have to... you know... outplay killer and try make killer make a mistake? crazy idea.
that is how pallet should be. they should mindgame tools to outsmart the killer.
Agreed - have possibility to outsmart. You can't do that now. The game is boring if it's just about hold-W and predrop. The game is fun, when there's possibility for mindgames and looping. But if you are guaranteed to get hit - then you need to be outright stupid to try to loop (mindgame, not leave the loop, not hold-W). If there's no possibility to outsmart, because killer can hit you reliably on reaction, then you can't loop. I am not talking about going for 50:50. I am saying not going for 100:0 (also known as 15s chase which is exact opposite from 5gen chase).
you sound like your asking for 100% reliable ocunter-play that always wins
No. I am asking for counterplay where I get at least 50% chance instead of 0% change to escape, because killer has on-reaction reliable hits.
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Agreed. It can't stun killer when carrying. That would be totally broken
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530001#Comment_3530001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwk
That's the video I'm referring to, at some point they just decide to go down under the pallet because they cannot play it properly, Hens also states that on wreckers yard (i think it is?) there are only 2 pallets that can stop the spirit being shack and the crane.
you see it directly on the video. Stacks are highly against you, but if you stun spirit, you do have agency and can get to next pallet (and die there, because getting 2 stuns in a row is just too unlikely). But at least there's something to be done.
But yes - it's very good example of how broken the killer is (TBF - the match might be more interesting if there were absolutely no restrictions - so 4 survivors bringing 4 BNP's - as they are vs most OP version of spirit - and see where the balance is in that case)