FreddysMixTape
FreddysMixTape
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@felipao_brabo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339601#Comment_1339601
I don't know about your experience with Legion, but he is the killer I mainly play, he has plenty of pressure man. Thana + Sloppy butcher makes the survivors not heal, has a similar effect as plague, or makes the survivors waste a ######### ton of time healing. There is also the mend time that temporarily takes survivors out of the game, I don't know a single survivor that ignores mending, it's not stupid, if the killer returns you're #########.
If a legion activates his frenzy on you while you're injured, he definitely wants information, by using dead hard you prevent him from getting it. If he decides to chase you, great, you're going to make him lose time while the other survivors do gens (he got fatigued for 4 seconds, that can get you plenty of distance, so it's no a waste of a perk). If he decides to leave you to patrol gens, you just made him get fatigued for 4 seconds and gave him no information on where your teammates are. That's a game changer, it can determine if your teammates finishes a gen or not.
"killer i mainly play"
"sloppy butcher"
Just a friendly reminder that frenzy got nerfed a while back and its attacks no longer count as basic attacks meaning that sloppy literally wont be applied from your frenzy. it's a dead perk slot for 90% of the game as you would want people to waste time from insta healing after your frenzy for it to be truly effective. also thana sucks, it's a very deceiving perk that makes you think it does a lot but it usually ends up making people just not heal(like you said) at which point it adds like no time to the game because the time they would have spend up healing otherwise evens out with the extra time they spend on gens, infact they would have probably added more time to the game if they actually did just instantly start healing after every frenzy. In short: I disagree that Legion has "plenty of pressure", it's mediocre at best and laughable at worst.
On the actual topic of the thread: I agree that people who dead hard frenzy attacks are actual clowns(they also usually complain about being tunneled which is hilarious to say the least.)
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I feel like feral frenzy in its current form isn't even that bad at what its meant to do, like its definitely not good at it either but its decent. I absolutely wouldn't mind seeing its fatigue drop back to 3 seconds such as it getting its charge mechanics adjusted(why does the timer only start after the fatigue and why do you lose 50% charge on a regular m1?).
I agree with immortalls on Legions biggest issue being the complete and utter lack of any chase tools. They may be able to easily injure survivors but lack the ability to follow up on said injure. I feel like that they have a similar issue to old freddy where their power is decent for juggling and time wasting(if people do actually heal) but they lack tools to gain actual downs with(though i guess old freddy did have transition mindgames, but you get the idea). Main difference here is that the original dream demon was way better at both juggling and stalling but I guess Legion can atleast technically hit people when ever they want and don't HAVE to use their power first.
On a related side note: They really need an addon rework, like more than half of their addons are basically worthless. Also can we please have the speed addons back? I really liked those and I miss them dearly.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334450#Comment_1334450
That's the issue, it'd let you know exactly when the survivor stopped running.
Would that kind of information really be too much though? I feel like that isn't really telling you much, I guess you could use it as a sort of way to see when someone quick and quiets into a locker or they are trying a corner juke or something. I dont know, personally I just dont think having that kind of information would be actually game breaking or too powerful but maybe I am just not thinking it through properly.
@Zeidoktor said:
They've since changed how Deep Wounds works so that specific scenario wouldn't be an issue anymore.
I honestly just figured it's similar to why Pigs can't see progress on activated Reverse Bear Traps, or Plague can't see sickness progress on Survivors.
It just being a consistency thing would probably make the most sense yeah, though deep wound itself is kinda weird in how it works and being able to see its timer especially in its current form would probably not allow you to gain any value from it unlike with bear traps or sickness.
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@starkiller1286 said:
Because when killers (legion) could they would moon walk after the survivor to bypass the timer from pausing due to the chase until the survivor dropped.
But it doesnt work like that anymore? The time only drops now if a survivor is doing something that isn't mending or running. So even if you are moonwalking after them it would never down them unless they stop running for some reason.
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that feeling when even newer players find your character boring and predictable
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@ThePetDetective said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1198677#Comment_1198677
I actually hadn't considered this part of the M1 Killer argument before. You are right, though, he is the only one without any 1v1 tools. And while it isn't a gamestopping tool, i feel like as long as you've spread around a couple stabs before committing to a chase, Mending, healing, and potentially Thanatophobia/Sloppy Butcher are enough of stalling tools to mitigate the time wasted by the loops a survivor could get in. And as for the fatigue, I do really think it's both annoying and a big reason i lose chases when i do, but it's one of those elements that if it were 2-3 seconds default, and you still had the Cold Dirt and Joey's Mixtape, it would feel unfair for the survivor.
I've been playing a few more games, watching a few more videos, and i gotta say i was wrong about how it doesn't matter that Frenzy has weird restrictions. The general consensus I've seen is it's a relic of release Legion (cough cough Frank's Mixtape), but yes, I do think you're right, and that it really isn't needed/helping anyone.
Again, you have a point, but i think this one is slightly dulled by some of their addons. Both of the iridescent add-ons give Frenzy a new utility (gen awareness and survivor paranoia/pallet counter), but you could even make the argument that the detection increase, while not helping you secure hits, give's you decent ideas of where to look for survivors who think they're out of range, or that the duration can serve to disrupt things a little more. In general though, yeah, their power is a one trick pony. I personally just think the trick is decent enough that that is fine.
The short answer for the plague is i feel it rewards her for doing next to nothing and punishes survivors for mistakes that essentially came down to luck. I'm in the process of researching numbers and watching plague videos to put together the post, but in general i feel Plague is too rewarding to unskilled play (not saying she's easy to play, i sure couldn't pick her up and 4k, but those who are good at her i feel just have it easy).
apologies for the late response, didn't really get around to it yesterday.
i just kinda disagree with that, we are taking decent survivors as an example here as you mentioned in the original post and i feel those just don't really spam heal against a legion. i find that most of the better survivors tend to only reset once or twice a match against a legion and otherwise just stay injured. i guess thanat kicks in at that point but i honestly feel that perk is just a bit overrated, it usually ends up adding a bit over half a gen to the game which isn't that crazy, infact its something pop can do in just 2 kicks. i guess it gets more value if people do spam heal but like i said, from personal experience most of the better survivors tend to just not. about sloppy, idk how you would quickly apply that to a bunch of people considering that frenzy attacks don't count as basic attacks anymore, i suppose you could use the button addon for that? but at that point especially i feel people would just wait it out due to it only lasting 60 seconds.
regarding the base time wasted by just mending, in my opinion it just isn't that impactful, usually unless everyone is super clumped together the first guy you hit finishes mending by the time you hit the second, and the second finishes by the time you hit the third and so on. so you usually just have one guy actually mending while you're chasing, like yeah it still buys you a little more time but it just isn't particularly great.
finally about the fatigue, i think they should just rework the cd addons entirely and put the base fatigue at about 3 seconds or less, wouldn't be possible to get it to some insanely low numbers like that and would be a nice little buff. perhaps like that it would be possible to actually use the power for traversal again without losing distance.
about the lineartiy stuff, i just dont think it's good design to need addons, let alone red addons in order for a power to do more than the bare minimum. fuming mixape also just isn't that great, it'd be a lot better if the legion wouldn't lose sight of gen auras when killer instinct activates but yeah, personal opinion but i just dont think that addon is that good, especially for a red.
lastly about the plague part, i'll just wait for your full post on that and give a proper response when its written out, though in short i just don't think she's an issue.
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@ThePetDetective said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1198589#Comment_1198589
If some of my post was unclear, let me try and clarify.
First, for some reason i haven't been able to find the actual numbers of Legion's release stats, so i made a guess that they were 125% frenzy. My mistake.
Second, by lethality i meant in most cases, you come out of frenzy with at worst one person in front of you injured, or multiple people injured, either near or scattered around the map. The lethality comes from how because of that, there's a decent chance one or more people are nearby and one hit away from downed.
Next, no offence, but your argument that they have nothing to down people with is the same kind of stuff i was talking about with flimsy arguments. I've played a couple Legion games since i posted this, and i can't see why everyone seems to think M1 killers are so unbearably hard to play with no power. In a 1 on 1 chase with a standard speed M1 killer, the killer isn't powerless. Bloodlust and basic mindgames are good enough, and if you still really believe they have nothing going for you, that's mostly a subjective opinion, not a fact.
As for old Legion, I agree! I don't think the rework was necessary, just some tweaks and bug fixes. But this post isn't about that really, it's about how Old Legion, as he was, was perceived, versus the rework.
I said flimsy reasons because most of them can either be argued against or are inherently subjective. i explained why i think the long fatigue is important, i think a good half of their addons are better than people make them out to be (I will agree the ones that aren't good are effectively worthless, but i'd say only 5/20 of them are so bad that no one could make use of them), as i said if you just employ basic killer strategies it's not terribly difficult to secure a down, and as for restrictions, I can't really think of one I would say is debilitating. The example you gave is really unimportant in the grand scheme. Either you downed someone with the attack or, for some reason, you decided it was better not to use/wait for frenzy to recharge. In cases like that, It's probably not a good idea to use it anyway.
The linearity, if i understand you correctly, is again a subjective thing. I personally love its simplicity and utility, but I know some don't. That's just the deal of a killer's power not being for everyone.
As for the Plague thing, I'm planning on making another post about that when i have the time, but if you don't have anything to say besides lol there's not really a point in saying anything.
didn't expect you to answer this detailed. will try to do the same.
you are right, m1 killers aren't as weak as people say and as god loops are about to be gone next patch i am sure it'll be even more doable but the point is more or less that literally every other killer in the game has something to help them achieve the down. you are just factually disadvantaged as legion is the only killer who doesn't. you said they have something indirect through spreading injuries however, and this is personal opinion but i just feel like that especially with how long the fatigue is most survivors can easily make it to a loop and if they are somewhat skilled, still waste a decent amount of time, unless the loop is like horribly unsafe or something.
good to see that theres someone else out there who didnt think old legion was unsaveable, doesn't change much now but still nice to see.
fair enough on the subjective part. to clarify, i didn't mean to say these things are fact, i meant more like that you can see where people are comming from. 4 seconds is simply very long for a power that can not down anyone directly and is already restricted in numerous other ways. losing power charge isn't that impactful, sure. but it's still unnecessary and feels like it's there for no real reason(just like seeing no blood in frenzy, or going nearly blind when exiting it).
by lineartiy i meant that you can't use the power for anything but its one intended purpose. you can't use it for mobility because it makes you actually lose distance. you can't use it as a chase tool because the fatigue is too long, not to mention that legion has no collision right after a stab or vault which makes body blocking extremly unlikely to work.
as for the plague part, maybe i missread it but you said that survivors cant get away from her? i just dont get how plague is an issue unless she has like omega vomit ready in an extremly open area. but honestly most killers are a huge threat when in the open without any pallets. but this isn't about plague so i'll just wait for your full post on that. sorry if that remark was a bit immature, had a bit of a rough day and just kinda acted on impulse.
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okay first of all, legion is not faster in frenzy then they were on release. the release version moved at 5.28(even faster if you were running the speed addons) while the current version moves at 5.2. second, what lethality lol? legion quite literally has nothing to down people with, they are a pure m1 killer which isn't particularly difficult to deal with if you're a halfway decent survivor.
"It's not like, say, Plague, who gives survivors little to get away." lol.
old legion got a lot of justified hate, sure. but people also complained about things that really weren't an issue(like their speed for example). probably an unpopular opinion but i feel like old legion could have been fixed with a few tweaks and some fixes to their exploits. the character wasn't nearly as fundamentally broken as some people pretended it was, but yeah not like it matters at this point.
lastly, what do you mean by "flimsy reasons"? last time i checked the things people complained about when it comes to legion were pretty valid. like their extremly long fatigue, the linearity of their power, their laughable addons, the nonsensical restrictions(like losing power charge for hitting someone) or the complete and utter lack of a tool to down people with.
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the fact that people are unironically defending god loops gets a large yikes from me
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lol
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1003289#Comment_1003289
I mean they are no nurse, that's not really what i'm trying to say. But a solid mid tier killer
Against the avarage survivor you have all the tools needed to win
For me having to only outplay survivors once is all the chase power i need
Against average survivors for sure, but I was more trying to say that they heavily fall off against the like really good players.
Personally I think they are low tier, though I feel people usually have this misconception where "low tier" is usually instantly connected with "impossible to win with" or "only bad players lose to this". I dont think thats the case personally, I just think that a lot of killers are better than the Legion in their current state. I think you can definitely win with them, infact I think we reached a point where you can win with all killers against most survivors if the map doesn't happen to be like... haddonfield with 5 hyper long fences.
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A bit underrated? Sure. Actually amazing and really strong, don't really agree with that TBH. I too have been playing this character for a long time now and I can do somewhat well with them in most games, you however need to realise that against like actually really good survivors the Legion really doesnt have much of a power to speak off. Simply not healing removes most of their slowdown and turns them basically just into the Plague except that their power doesn't ignore iron will, disables medkits entirely or gives constant passive tracking due to objects getting infected. And in the off-chance that people do heal you wont get a super mode that can potentially insta win you the game, you just get a few extra seconds.
The dude in the video says it himself, in order to win you need to mindgame a lot. Which would be less of an issue if you could do that at every loop, but you can't. Legion lacks chase utility, the only thing they can do is body block(which depending on the addons you're running sits between being below average or terrrible) or they can hope people screw up and blind them at pallets meaning that they rely more on missplays than anything. This is their biggest issue IMO, they rely too much on survivor mistakes and lack play making potential of their own(Something that would be easily fixed if they actually had a power or even secondary ability that could be used in chase but I dont think this is supposed to be a balance discussion so I'll keep it at that).
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From a killer perspective:
Legion's power lacks the momentum it used to have, is incredibly limited and punishing to use in most scenarios and severly lacks options on how its usable. Most powers can be used in a variety of ways but Legion's power is very linear, and while this on its own wouldn't be that big of an issue, the fact that the power isn't even good at the one thing it's still able to do is actually sad.
Old Legion's power while incredibly exploitable and argueably broken was very fun to use: It was almost never on CD, it made you go from 110% to 130% which felt incredibly fast, the vaulting felt just right and being able to just swing around wildly without any punishment felt incredibly fun(People who enjoy the new Mad Grit can probably confirm this).
Overall, while I still play them due to liking their lore and general aesthetic a lot, they just aren't as fun as they used to be and once I finish getting all perks on them(currently working on p3 lv50'ing all characters) I'll probably only very rarely pick them.
From my matches as survivor against Legion:
I honestly didn't fight many since the rework(big surprise). But from the few matches I did play against them I must say they were incredibly dull, Legion's power has very little impact on the game and honestly just isn't very exciting to fight.
This is probably a very unpopular opinion but I really liked the fact that you actually had to escape from old Legion eventually as you would otherwise go down. It wasn't just loop untill they give up and actually encouraged trying to get away, which would lead to some very intense moments. I do know however how it was nigh impossible to shake off any decent Legion especially if they ran blood hound and essentially removed the downside of not having any tracking tools.
So even though Legion is far less frustrating to fight they became a lot more boring to deal with IMHO.
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The best way to play them would be to play a better killer.
But to be serious for a second: Their playstyle honestly hasn't changed that much, you still want to try and hit as many people with Deep Wounds as possible and then try to chase one person down. The main difference is that you can no longer use your power to do that, you'll have to chase them "normally" now. A lot of tech or exploits depending on how you viewed it all are also no longer possible, you can't spam lunge anymore to gain extra speed neither can you moon walk or cheese the Deep Wound timer in any way(in case you were into that).
Regarding optimal builds and what not, this is all highly up to discussion IMO and there is no right answer here, that being said however: Their best add-ons IMO now are: duration(Mishief List, Mural Sketch, Stolen Sketch Book), recharge time(Scratched Ruler and Etched Ruler), Mend Time(Nasty Blade and Filthy Blade) and just the Iridescent Button. The rest is not really worthwhile.
Pretty good perks for them would be things like: Save The Best For Last(Essentially core, Feral Frenzy allows you stack this up fairly quickly and it gives you something to fall back on in those rounds where you won't get to use your power for anything but stacking it up), Bamboozle(Helps counteract the horrid vault nerfs), Thanatophobia(Usually not that good but in those games where you can keep everyone consistently injured it does wonders), Sloppy Butcher(Kinda the same deal as with Thana except people need to actually heal for it to do anything for you, they usually do though).
Despite those any other perks you would run on killers without any decent chase tools are pretty good, so Brutal Strength or Spirit Fury + Enduring for instance. Of course the basic meta perks are also good like BBQ, Ruin and Pop Goes The Weasle for example.
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Legion just needs their feeling of momentum back, the power is currently extremly sluggish and just feels terribly underwhelming to use. The power itself at the moment feels almost like a bad joke, like "Oh the Legion's power is to gain 2 stacks of Play With Your Food and the ability to slow vault pallets and medium vault windows, their attacks also apply borrowed time and show you all the people you probably wont be able to hit in the 10 seconds you spend in your power, and leaving it stuns you for 4 seconds and makes your screen almost entirely black... you also cant see scratchmarks, or blood". This sounds terrible... because it is.
Many people have suggested a lot of ideas that would make Legion probably pretty decent and if the devs decide to go for another take at overhauling the character I hope they atleast take inspiration from some of them, that being said: For a quickfix I agree with most things you mentioned here.
Personally I think they should buff the speed and bring the speed add-ons back, simply because the base speed is terrible and the killer instinct add-ons are quite frankly useless. The vault speed nerfs should also be reverted, vaulting currently is almost pointless as a survivor can gain enough distance on you to a point where they can actually loop certain pallets and windows even. Why they nerfed the CD add-ons and also increased the base CD of FF is still beyond me, I'd say just rework the CD add-ons into something else and just put the base CD at no more than 3 seconds, but for a quicker fix your idea is fine I suppose.
Regarding Frank's, it like so many other of Legion's add-ons needs a full on rework, just like Deep Wounds, I dont think they'd be able to fix them with just some number changes.
Finally, regarding the whole "Legion is unfun to play against" thing. Personally I think most if not all slowdown based killers are annoying to deal with and this alone should not be a reason for Legion to be removed or reworked entirely, but that's just my opinion.
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The bleedout timer is infact 30 seconds so you're right on that one. To answer your other questions:
Stab wound study takes 5 seconds off the timer and Frank's Mix Tape decreases the timer by 7.5 seconds per hit or 25%.
Perks like Dark Devotion will help you lower the timer however I do believe that the timer still pauses while in a chase, so you'd have to essentially go back to moon walking(quite epic, I know) while Tinkerer or Dark Devotion are active if you want to actually cheese a down with Deep Wounds.
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Just about anything would be better than the current version of Legion.
That being said, I actually quite like this idea. It fixes most, if not all of my issues with the rework and the suggested version of Deep Wounds sounds like an actual debuff rather than just a mild inconvenience like they are at the moment.
One thing that I've been wondering though is, considering that Borrowed Time also applies Deep Wounds, would it then apply this version of Deep Wounds or do you feel like the perk should apply a new status effect akin to the current version of Deep Wounds or perhaps even just put survivors on a timer like it used to? I feel like it would be kinda strange for BT to not put you on any sort of timer that results in going down if not attended to.
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Their CD should honestly get looked at as well. 4 seconds is an actually ridiculous amount of time for a power that can't actually down anyone. Afaik this is the 2nd longest power CD in the game, only topped by LF if he bumps into an object. To put that a bit into perspective; both the Nurse's base blink and Billy's chainsaw CD is shorter and both those powers are very much lethal.
Afaik the CD and the CD add-ons were originally nerfed due to them being perceived as too powerful and if thats truly the case I feel like they should just replace the CD add-ons entirely and put the FF base CD into a reasonable spot, preferably one that isn't above 3 seconds.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/587367#Comment_587367
######### I'm still thinking old legion numbers.
Good effort though.
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@NuclearBurrito Doesn't mending take 15 seconds and Legions power needs 20 to recharge? I suppose you can cheese it a bit by keeping them moving untill you get to a point where you can recharge it before they actually finish mending but at that point you might as well just try and go for M1 hits.
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The main problem here is that the deep wound timer stops ticking down while you mend. So even if you do somehow manage to trap everyone in the basement, you wouldn't be able to down them with DW and would have to resort to just M1'ing them, which isnt much different from most other killers.
I can see this maybe working out in chase if they wait too long to start mending but that just kinda relies on survivors not paying attention and would be far too unreliable.
Might want to try working with perks that get your TR to 0 while you chase like tinkerer or dark devotion(but that one doesnt even work with FF hits for whatever reason from what I remember).