Emeal
Emeal
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@gtVel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386021#Comment_3386021
People self sacrifice because the game is fundamentally flawed and has had a skill drain issue due to the balance surrounding it. Generally, there aren't good billy players at this point. Nobody knows how to play around him, and generally, ANY oppressive killer tends to get people going next. Ralph, another streamer, gets it MUCH more often than I do when he's playing huntress. I play any killer besides basic m1 killers, and I still get it somewhat often.
That's why so many people give up. I ask all the time, and it's mostly because they got a bad match prior and didn't want to have to be so focused on the next match.
That seems like a convenient excuse to me. But even so if you are THAT oppressive with Billy surely we would want to nerf that?
When is the reason to nerf engravings then I wonder?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386021#Comment_3386021
As pointed out by others making licensed killers more attratictive than those you already have by getting the base game, by either buffing those or nerfing the others seems like a fine reason from a financial standpoint, I would however call it malicious from gameplay point of view. Also many changes they made just don't make any sense, no matter from what perspective... Which was evident for basically everyone reading the changes for the first time. (e.g. nerfing marvins blood on nemesis, or giving many killers a load of completely useless addons that nobody will ever use because they don't matter...)
Claiming that I am anything in the sense of the topic is absurd since I did not make a single statement about the state of balance of the engravings... You are not making any sense here...
Dude if you call out other people on not providing evidence for statements they make but don't do that yourself you might be a hypocrite... And it does not really add something to the debate at all...
As pointed out by others making licensed killers more attractive than those you already have by getting the base game, by either buffing those or nerfing the others seems like a fine reason from a financial standpoint,
dude, are you for real rn? Billy was nerfed to sell Weskers. lol Do you know what a Conspiracy Theory is?
I would however call it malicious from gameplay point of view.
Also many changes they made just don't make any sense, no matter from what perspective... Which was evident for basically everyone reading the changes for the first time. (e.g. nerfing marvins blood on nemesis, or giving many killers a load of completely useless addons that nobody will ever use because they don't matter...)
idk, I have seen gtVel absolutely nuke survivors with that speed. I think they are breathing of relief rn.
Marvins blood nerf does not seem strange to me, it was pretty good to speedrun nemesis stages for really good players.
Claiming that I am anything in the sense of the topic is absurd since I did not make a single statement about the state of balance of the engravings... You are not making any sense here...
You did make a statement, you are commenting on a thread. Replying to a tangent, a far out branch of the conversation.
Dude if you call out other people on not providing evidence for statements they make but don't do that yourself you might be a hypocrite... And it does not really add something to the debate at all...
Yes that is only true if we keep on topic. But its not staying on topic asking me to prove a negative because I asked first.
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@Mooks said:
I guess this kinda question still needs to get posted into the PTB feedback section as the devs don’t look into this section that often and are probably focused currently on PTB feefback
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/categories/6-7-0-ptb-feedback
Perhaps this is true, but it seemed wrong to ask about a Developer Update explanation in the PTB Feedback section.
Hopefully a forum mod elf will know the answer.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385729#Comment_3385729
First of all, that was the first statement I even made in this post, so I don't know what you are talking about for the most part...
Also I did not give you the burden of proof alone, I only stated that when you or anybody else for that matter makes a statement you have to back it up with something for it not be easily dismissed... You claimed they would have a good reason for every change they make without providing evidence... Therefore that statement can be dismissed, same goes for things overperforming and therefore getting nerfed... That is also just an assumption, unless they stated that as the reason for toning down the addons...
As for the debate things, I've been part of the debate club of my university for around 2 years and was even on a few tournmanets... Yes the rules can be diverse but no matter if you debate in BP (British Parliament) or OPD (open parliament debate), when you just claim stuff without providing evidence or at least a somewhat logical explanation for stuff then either the other team or the juror will just dismiss your argument that easily... In court that rule applies to facts that are beneficial to you, so you can admit things without the need to prolong the whole case that help the opposite side... But since this is not a 1v1 standpoint with only two possible standpoints this does not seem appropriate. So in summon you cannot just make stuff up without providing evidence or explanation and expect people who want to dismiss that statement to deliver more than just a counter-statement dismissing your point.
Also yes, logic cannot be partially applied, I agree on that, I however do not see how that changes anything?
As for the Billy point, I don't even play Billy, but I really love the stuff good Billys can do and think it's said to punish those guys despite the enormous amount of hours they put into him.
You claimed they would have a good reason for every change they make without providing evidence...
No im pretty sure that is a clear as an assumption, if you were unsure about that you can just ask. I don't assume bHVR is malicious.
So they probably have a good reason, seems weirdly strange to roll out the whole company arm for nothing. You tell me.
You claimed they would have a good reason for every change they make without providing evidence... Therefore that statement can be dismissed, same goes for things overperforming and therefore getting nerfed... That is also just an assumption, unless they stated that as the reason for toning down the addons...
Seems kind of weird do me that in a world of Video games and Video Game companies, they cant do changes to their videogames without me having to prove they are not malicious. I think that is rather bad standard, but the problem is you are only here to give me crap over me pointing out what was wrong with the other guys statements first. It IS trying to shift the burden of proof and its not on the topic either.
Like if you were really invested in finding out the truth, you would not waste time with me. I don't hold the stats either.
when you just claim stuff without providing evidence or at least a somewhat logical explanation for stuff then either the other team or the juror will just dismiss your argument that easily...
Yeah that might fly in debate club or British parliament, but to me who are invested in the topic it matters not. Its just shifting the burden of proof, which is a fallacy. To me you are clearly #5 in the following list and its a waste of my time on this topic.
- bHVR is doing a mistake by nerfing the engravings.
- What is the mistake?
- The mistake is the engravings are fine, they don't need a nerf.
- How do you know engravings are fine?
- WHERE ARE YOUR EVIDENCE TO PROVE ENGRAVINGS ARE NOT FINE, MISTER-
You you want to goat at me, then goat.
@gtVel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384936#Comment_3384936
Here's the thing, if you're good, double engravings are much easier to play around than most other addons. Double engravings are factually, not his strongest addons. They're the most fun and difficult, but definitely not the best. Never have been. So, what point are you trying to make here...?
You are replying to a covo I had with Xernoton's long post about addon, but mainly the last point he made that
Something performing the best does not mean it's overperforming. Billy isn't overperforming. Period. If he was we'd have seen that with the last kill rates or the ones before. Because since he has not received a single buff. Quite the opposite in fact. It's been nerfs and shadow nerfs as well as reworked maps, which are all horrible for him, no exceptions.
The point is, Statistics are worth looking at and that isn't just kill rates. But also downrates and many other rates, like I have even watched your streams during all this. Seeing how people self sacrifice vs you its pretty clear why they are nerfed. You move way to fast to give an avg. survivor a chance imo. Now if you want to convince me I am wrong about that assessment we can continue here. But I think we all rather want answers at this point and that means asking bHVR.
@Emeal said:
Hey, everyone so the PTB landed and its hot and cold. But as discussion that has filled a lot is about the nerf to Billy's Engravings and through discussion I have learned a lot about how these addons are a cherished by some Legendary Players to enable some crazy and wild gameplay. But the explanation on the PTB was very lacking and without a point of at least disagreement it seems rather hollow and hidden.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YR06PB11C4PO/image.png
So could I ask you to give a brief or lengthy commentary of the changes and what you considered regarding these addons? It seemed it was not so obvious to many, so a more a more through explanation would be enlightening.
Thanks for your time.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385279#Comment_3385279
You do realize that by that logic applied neither can you uphold your point since you don't have evidence either... And since by the rules of a debate statements presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence your whole point is basically worthless as well...
Yes it might be worthless, but thats not how debate rules are, debates are pretty diverse. I think what you mean is about evidence for a proposition, which has nothing to do with debates and more to do with Epistemology. furthermore there are not different logics that you can pick and chose from. There is logic you apply to a topic of discussion and then you examine that and take in the critiques of your arguments.
But actually in a debate its bad to be caught looking like you don't know the answers, so I can certainly understand how you feel you have to move the burden of proof unto me. as if It was not valid criticism of your arguments to not have data to back it up. It seems these days its more important to argue impactfully and not honestly or within boundaries of evidence.
Regardless of how many Hillbillys come to talk to me, Ill write them a response, its the least I can do, even if they are most interested in owning me in a debate. :D
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Survivors may need more tools to find each other, there are many such perks, and those perks may need a buff in the future.
In short unknown factors in the future cannot hold us back.
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High MMR is going to be hell.
Isn't that the idea? that people who sweat are supposed to play with each other over time?
If High MMR was not hell for both sides, idd assume the game in general had flaws.
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I dont believe so, but we can check it.
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I think it will be the opposite for me, im giddy about all the extra time I have on my hands, no need to tunnel at all.
Not every hit is denied by DHs, Survivors don't heal up in zero seconds. A lot of Risk of my shoulders, no sweat required.
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@arsoul93 said:
"bHVR would not do anything unless there was a good reason" - Emeal 2023.
I see you're new to this game.
We can have a discussion about what a good reason is, but you cant prove me wrong cause you don't have statistics.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384936#Comment_3384936
That's exactly the issue! Billy doesn't have a high kill rate. If he did, we'd have seen that. Since the last kill rates things only got worse for him. So his kill rate suddenly rising wouldn't make any sense. And even if it did, that would have nothing to do with Engravings because they weren't touched in nearly 1 1/2 years. If anything it would be more realistic for his kill rate to have fallen. Every new map screws him over, every reworked map becomes horrible for him and he got nerfed multiple times (base kit). If his kill rate did miraculously sky rocket however, wouldn't it make more sense to instead revert the changes they made to his Engravings in 5.3.0? Because back then they were considered weak enough for a buff. Instead they bring out the heavy weapons and butcher him yet again.
Your speculations are based on Hillbilly being too strong with these addons. How would you even know that? BHVR NEVER said that Hillbilly was overperforming. LITERALLY NEVER. Not even when they reworked him.
There were never official stats where we could see his kill rate being too high. And since he didn't get any buffs in 1 1/2 years even speculating in that regard makes no sense.
This is the last I'll say on that matter since we're talking in circles. There is literally no base to your claims other than "BHVR wouldn't nerf him, if he wasn't too strong.", even when they did so before.
That's exactly the issue! Billy doesn't have a high kill rate. If he did, we'd have seen that. Since the last kill rates things only got worse for him. So his kill rate suddenly rising wouldn't make any sense.
bHVR would not do anything unless there was a good reason, I can only see the reason for those changes being the Killrate with those addons being higher. This theory is continued from having talked to the former developer, saying he knew those addons were very good. I have now also talked to loads of Hillbilly experts and seen the gameplay those addons enabled. Those are my reasons.
By this point its a surprise if the performance rate was not very high with those addons. Sure, only bHVR can tell us if they are.
We can ask bHVR to peel back the curtains for us.
This is the last I'll say on that matter since we're talking in circles. There is literally no base to your claims other than "BHVR wouldn't nerf him, if he wasn't too strong.", even when they did so before.
Then name a part which you can prove was not overperforming, but that bHVR nerfed anywway. You cant.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384907#Comment_3384907
Funnily enough, in the case of Hillbilly these statistics wouldn't tell you anything. Why would a good Hillbilly run any other addon? Engravings at least provide some consistent value even, if they're not as good as they could be. Also they provide the exact value Billy needs. More speed. Even if they only added 5% speed they'd still be his best addons (right after LoPros of course). His other addons are all worthless. Literally worthless.
I've played douzens of games with each addon, even committing full builds to getting value out of them and I can tell you; it doesn't work. Name 5 Billy addons that would actually give me an advantage. Something useful. Something that I'd need. You're gonna have a hard time with that. Higher turning rate only works on specific maps, so I'd have to burn a map offering as well and be lucky enough for the survivors not to send me somewhere else instead. Overheat addons don't help me out in the slightest, since I don't overheat anyway. His green addons are all incredibly gimmicky (besides Doom Engraving and Low Kickback Chains, which only help when you mess up). 3 of his purple addons are either bad or gimmicky as well. His iridescent addons are the definition of gimmicky and don't help you at all against survivors that have the power of 2 human eyes and a brain. Only one of his brown addons is somewhat useful and that comes with a massive downside (Heavy Clutch). 2 of his yellow addons are completely pointless. The only generally good addons he has are the Engravings and the LoPros. His other somewhat useful addons are still weak af and too situational to be good.
Something performing the best does not mean it's overperforming. Billy isn't overperforming. Period. If he was we'd have seen that with the last kill rates or the ones before. Because since he has not received a single buff. Quite the opposite in fact. It's been nerfs and shadow nerfs as well as reworked maps, which are all horrible for him, no exceptions.
I disagree, if an addon combo in particular is causing a high kill rate bHVR needs to bring out the hammer.
If not by that logic no addon could ever be nerfed.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384813#Comment_3384813
If it was unintended, there wouldn't be an increased turning rate to begin with. That is not a bug and it's not useful for anything else. For mobility you don't need it, for running in a straight line it cannot help you. This is intended. That is also the reason why they take shorter chainsaw sprints into account. You will never go for a 10m sprint otherwise because it wouldn't not provide any value.
Most people, that play Hillbilly will play him that way. Newer players don't pick him at all because he is so punishing. And the people that play him, play him for exactly that mechanic. He is mostly played by people that either main him or are naturally (for example Otz) good enough to do well with him. Not going for curves means you can only use the chainsaw for back revving and mobility. His mobility is overshadowed by many other killers and back revving is boring for one and not really possible against good survivors.
Fortunately for you, BHVR will continue to butcher this killer. I guess the few people that don't like him are more important than the people that do like him. Back when there were way more Hillbilly players, most people agreed that he was fun to go against (with the exception of insta saw) as well. This has nothing to do with his currently abysmal pick rate. But here we are. A killer nobody complained about in that way, not even you as far as I can tell (didn't see any posts about it and doubt I would have missed that), is getting yet another nerf.
Honestly, there does not need to be a post of someone complaining about an addon for bHVR to nerf them. bHVR are perfectly able to see which combo of addons the best performing Hillbillys are using. I think they stick out like an infected thumb.
I can complain plenty about Hillbilly if you ask me.
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@halluminium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384779#Comment_3384779
Dude, you can outplay a billy at every tile. It's basically a 50/50 each time he uses goes for a curve. Without engravings curving is almost impossible.
If that was true, then my team would not die like flies in a blender when we face one. But they do.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384790#Comment_3384790
Friend, this is a discussion about Billy. The guy with the chainsaw. Not the guy, that injects himself with whatever that is in his vial. Billy can't hug tech. He needs to curve around objects. Otherwise he'll suffer a 3 seconds stun. Billy is (for the most part) completely unable to slide off an object. There is, I believe, one exception left (that I won't name, sorry not sorry devs) but all other tiles have either hitboxes that are somewhat ok (these are very rare and far between) or absolutely unfair (invisible hitboxes, little twigs or things he can't see even with Shadowborn) or completely unmanageable with his power (certain trees and bushes come to mind).
Just do me a favor and play 1 game of Billy. By your own words it should be quite ease to hit these curves because you just 'slide off' of cars.
It sounds like you have no idea what to do against a Hillbilly so here is some advice: You can use hitboxes, mindgames and also his own lack of speed against him and just go ONE SINGLE STEP out of the way to make him miss. Damn, this is so bad you can even bodyblock some chainsaw sprints (though I wouldn't advice you to do so)!
You are one of the very few people that don't like Hillbilly. Otherwise we would see some more people complaining about him. I think this is more of a you problem than it is a Hillbilly problem.
By your own words it should be quite ease to hit these curves because you just 'slide off' of cars.
Never said it was easy, they are using an unintended mechanic that bHVR has left in.
You are one of the very few people that don't like Hillbilly. Otherwise we would see some more people complaining about him. I think this is more of a you problem than it is a Hillbilly problem.
Nah, he is so rarely played and when hes played, they don't play that way. People have just unfortunately accepted it and that's the reason. So I might as well take it to bHVR, raise the concerns and have them take a good hard and honest look at the Killer and fix the issues they have neglected.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384740#Comment_3384740
With the exception of Spirit, these are all killers that require you to loop and mind game. Spirit is a bit different since you play more around her power than you play around loops. I had some trouble following you when you said that you "want to sleep" when a Billy is going for a curve. That is literally picture perfect material of mindgaming and looping, much like the other killers you stated. Demogorgon and Nemesis will also try to hit you with their power and that is best achieved by mindgaming and getting you out of position.
You sound like Im offended a Killer would hit me with their Power, but in reality those killers have nicely balanced power.
But none of these Killers slide off a car and gallops me down a Mach 2. That is the stuff that makes me want to go to bed.
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Have you tried playing against some of the people using both those addons though? Its insufferable, fast and boring.
Billy Mains, its not gameplay that makes me stand up and applaud. Just because you work really hard to pull it off don't make it good.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384678#Comment_3384678
May I ask, what are the killers you like to against? Because mindgaming and looping seem to be the opposite of what you enjoy as a survivor.
Spirit, Plague, Wraith, Dredge, Nemesis, Sadako ,Demogorgon comes to mind.
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@Volcz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379381#Comment_3379381
I agree and disagree with some of your points.
The main point I disagree with is when you brought up the whole 'walk back and forth revving and then boom insta-down'. I don't think like this about that. Most people would be impressed or caught in shock from the Billy downing them in that way (I've literally seen a compilation of great Billy mains who did this against Twitch Streamers to see their reaction) and almost all of them were surprised, shocked, impressed, etc and none of them were salty or mad they just got downed.
Its definitely not boring. I love going against Hillbillys and so do so many others, b/c they're rare and killer interaction with them is insanely fun. Its the opposite of boring. You want boring, go against Legion or a Nurse.
I'm completely fine with Hillbilly requiring A LOT of skill and experience, albeit that should be rewarded by being a stronger killer. I think everyone can agree he could use changes that push him up the ladder and not further down. This current change to engravings spits in all those people's faces that put thousands of hours into him over the course of years, when the last good thing about him is about to be gutted.
I feel for all the Billy mains right now. It must also be frustrating seeing Blight go another update without his addons being looked at.
Hillbilly is 1 of the most fun killers to go against, I know a lot of people feel the same way. They are a rare endangered species that need to be protected.
The main point I disagree with is when you brought up the whole 'walk back and forth revving and then boom insta-down'. I don't think like this about that. Most people would be impressed or caught in shock from the Billy downing them in that way (I've literally seen a compilation of great Billy mains who did this against Twitch Streamers to see their reaction) and almost all of them were surprised, shocked, impressed, etc and none of them were salty or mad they just got downed.
That isn't going to make me find it impressive, shocking. mainly I feel a sense of wanting to sleep.
lucky Billys are dying out. vause If I had to endure that more often idd go harder on bHVR for it. its absolute bull.
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No the activation needs to come after unhook, cause that's the time you can use it protect someone.
This perk MASSIVELY encourages camping and tunneling. It punishes Killers who play nicely. It also pits Survivors against each other in a competition for safe unhooks.
I dont really see how this massively encourages camping or tunneling, and I should know a bit about that. What's the reason?
With the added pre-requisite of safely unhooking another Survivor, which entirely depends on the Killer, again.
You go in, take a hit, unhook, get Dead Hard Active, DH the swing and you both escape.
Unless the Killer grabs you.
I still don't see how that encourages camping or tunneling still, like how??
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to make it easier to get that map related achievement. dbd lacks useful Map offerings, its pretty disappointing.
bHVR has not really shown us what they can do with map manipulation offerings, they need to step up their game.
- We can control if Survivors spawn close or far from eachother.
- we can control how many hooks
- we can control where the hatch spawn
- we can change the map
- all the bloodpoint offerings
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375462#Comment_3375462
First time checking the forums in a week, so apologies if it feels like I'm reviving a dead thread...
I too have never struggled with the OC skill check (or the perk, through any of its iterations), until playing against these recent two killers. Unlike Dead Hard, which is "strong" on its own merits, Overcharge's balance issues are related to oppressive synergies that emerged. But I digress...
I wasn't trying to make an argument against DH. I was making an argument against why it does not warrant being discussed in this thread.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375426#Comment_3375426
If you have a genuine issue with it, I recommend tapping basic attack, rather than holding it for a lunge. The average player is physically incapable of reacting to the basic attack animation speed. I'm not sure how prevalant hackers still are, so idk if people are still exploiting frame-perfect DHs, but that simple change to your gameplay should bring you more success.
...although it looks like DH is going to the shitter after this mid-chapter.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375725#Comment_3375725
Exactly one.
If you have a genuine issue with it, I recommend tapping basic attack, rather than holding it for a lunge. The average player is physically incapable of reacting to the basic attack animation speed. I'm not sure how prevalant hackers still are, so idk if people are still exploiting frame-perfect DHs, but that simple change to your gameplay should bring you more success.
I was already doing that, people still manage to DH away most of the time. Even after trying to force it out in lunge range for like 5 seconds.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383697#Comment_3383697
We have very detailed dashboards that show not only pick rates, but also win rates for each perk and/or loadout. When something is not only used often but also makes people far more likely to win, it's a sign that it's doing far more than other perks. Ideally people should be winning their matches because they played well, not because they put on the strongest stuff. That said, data isn't everything. Each of the perks in this next update had no shortage of complaints.
The alternative of leaving them as is leads to a meta that becomes very stale after a while. When there's so many perks in the game, it can get a bit boring to play against the same dozen or so over and over. Over the past year or so, we've been making sure that any emerging metas don't stick around too long.
Geez Peanits tell me the good Wraith Build. i need to up my game.
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@Peanits said:
I respect the theory, but I assure you there's nowhere near as much scheming going on as you might think. I would love nothing more than to announce some changes and celebrate with people as they say, "Wow, this is perfect!" from the get-go. Obviously that's easier said than done with an asym game, but we try our best.
In reality, we just aren't afraid to try bold things. The PTB exists for a reason. We can try these things out and see how people feel. If it's not popular; that's fine, we can change it before it goes live. We've gotten a lot better at this as time has gone on. There's a lot more knobs and switches we can fiddle with behind the scenes to make these changes a lot quicker than before, making it less risky to try. Basically, be bold, but be receptive.
Ultimately, nobody can say for sure how people are going to feel about something until it's actually out there. Not even us. We would much rather test things and get feedback than be too scared to touch anything and constantly wonder, "What if?"
I just hope bHVR are very skeptical of the reception too, People have been saying they are planning to play foul in protest.
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@That_One_Friend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383606#Comment_3383606
I'm not saying the changes are bad. Im glad medkits got nuked and healing is slower, its just on paper the changes feel too much when combined with certain perks/addons. Maybe im wrong and on PTB its nowhere near as bad as it seems
You can now bring a medkit in every game as Survivor since the prices got cut.
You get like 3 medkits per bloodweb? I think bHVR knows we have tons of medkit and its time to use them.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383609#Comment_3383609
For med-kits is 8.
For altruism is 16.
better bring a med kit then darlin
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383357#Comment_3383357
Dude, i am sorry but it will create a ton of other problems.
Altruism already gives killers 2 survivors occupied, killers have sloppy to help even more with the hit and run, that with med kits nerf would make it stronger.
Besides, this change would buff camping and tunneling.
Taking hits and bodyblocking will be more punishing in order to protect someone being tunneled.
And if some killer is camping, you take 48s to heal in order to save that survivor safely, 60s with sloppy.
Med-kits were a big advantage over altruism. But making med kits 24s and altruism 48 just makes altruism dead. In most situations it will be better to play injured all match and gen rush objectives or just bring med-kits and auto-heals, because altruism is nerfed way harder then med-kits.
Basically, when people complained about med-kits being to strong. This change made med-kits more necessary then before because of the nerf to altruism.
I hope this explains why i believe altruism shouldn't be nerfed.
I refuse to believe 8 seconds per person is gonna mean much, but we will see when the PTB comes in.
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its good Survivors get to feel the squeeze too, finally survivor can not be the relaxed role.
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Luckily bHVR is smart enough not to base their decisions on what popular community members thing and the sway they have other their followers. Watching him look over the changes, skip the rationale part and then ask repeatedly at the audience. What are they thinking, What are they thinking. Honestly a disappointment.
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idk mate, the censorship system is a strange one.
I hope bHVR gets out of the censorship system what they hoped they would cause its just annoying to censored on random words when talking to people.
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@C3Tooth Then ill employ a hit and run tactic to go to where you are injured doing a generator.
AND FEARMONGER.
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@Olokun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383425#Comment_3383425
i agree with you , it may be just a part of the problem but i think it might be better to start with maps and not perks .
You know how long it would take to balance all maps? much easier to put a pair of cuffs on perks that overperform.
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Lowkey I'm beginning to believe "Map balance" is just a buzzword these days, its too often made as an suggestion to disregard other problems or as a better solution. This should be met with high Skepticism cause the game is a complex construct of intersecting systems, it aint possible one part is the problem.
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Legion in Frenzy can see you inside a Locker.
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We don't want to wait before we see how the balance falls first?
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383094#Comment_3383094
But hit and run was meta before
CoH killed hit and run because gave everyone free self healing.
Two survivors healing each other is a lot of pressure for the killer and that was meta before CoH
With CoH having it's self heal removed i expect Hit and run to be viable and not overwhelming.
I dont think CoH is the only factor in the downfall of hit and run, it was hard enough before CoH.
Two survivors healing each other is a lot of pressure for the killer and that was meta before CoH
Not really cause most of the time those two same Survivors find a Gen and pop that in less than a min.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383021#Comment_3383021
Do you even hear yourself? "They were designed by the same person/people, but it's a coincidence"? The same person picked 230% twice by random chance? You're not even trying at this point. You're just a contrarian that wants to be right. No point engaging with you.
That does not make them related so that when Hillbilly's addons is nerfed then blight's must too, which is the point I responded to and that point is not valid and bHVR does not balance that way either.
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Oh god I remember that.
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idd love a Killer with a BIG GUN.
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Even with altruism right now undoes minutes of chase in 16 seconds, how is that fair to Killers?
Hit and Run strategies are effectively dead unless you are on a high speed Killer and nothing you suggested will do anything about it.
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Yup I agree fully here. bHVR must resurrect hit and run playstyles to reduce the need to tunnel.
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You can still use it.
I never used Eruption, but I can never inflict incapacitated with it now.
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383058#Comment_3383058
Hook-Rates per Killer.
No, just no. I like to play Sadako condemmed.
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What do you propose as alternative then?
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382626#Comment_3382626
Not every comparison is a case of whataboutism, and doing so shows you're just arguing in bad faith (as usual). Billy and Blight are both mobile killers who literally move at the exact same movement speed in power, and who both have (at least) two add-ons that grant movement speed in power and stack. Blight is literally one of the most appropriate killers to compare Billy to.
Not at all, them moving at same speed and addons are a coincidence.
Except ofc, the addons are designed by the same man. But that is irrelevant to any balance discussion, so it its whataboutism.
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I think you forgot to explain how all of this will be better than current patch?
Like Healing has been whack for a long time though, how does "Competitive Mode" fix that?
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@Notionless said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382626#Comment_3382626
If i have a pc and i decide to say f it lets remove the graphics card and run games purely on cpu, only to buy a brandnew pc due to bad performance instead of putting the graphics card back in, that would be idiotic.
If BHVR destroys a killer through hiliariously harsh nerfs, only to rework him due to bad performance instead of reverting some of the nerfs, that would be idiotic.
And apparently most people really like billy, and specifically mention curve billy as their fav type of billy. So do all of the people i scanned through think at least. If you dont agree with that, find me a somewhat popular creator that disagrees with that notion.
BHVR didnt intend a lot of elements that are now staples of the game, that people find fun. If they remove something a lot of people enjoy, proof in my previous post, that would be pretty dumb, would it not be?
If BHVR destroys a killer through hiliariously harsh nerfs, only to rework him due to bad performance instead of reverting some of the nerfs, that would be idiotic.
bHVR isnt psychic. If what they think will solve it does not solve it then they will try something else. A rework should be one of those options.
BHVR didnt intend a lot of elements that are now staples of the game, that people find fun. If they remove something a lot of people enjoy, proof in my previous post, that would be pretty dumb, would it not be?
Not really, they have allowed Blight and Billy to run free with it. But if there are major problems with it, those parties will end.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382626#Comment_3382626
Are you suggesting that Blight's addons are not overperforming?! I don't need to prove it to you. That should be obvious. If it's not to you, just tune in to a LillithOmen stream and you'll see exactly why Blight's addons are overperforming. No stats required. Besides, BHVR did never state that the Engravings were overperforming.
What most people want for Billy are flat out buffs. Buffs to his base kit. Buffs to some of his untertuned addons and a rework to his useless addons. Some small QoL changes don't outweigh this nerf, however. So, as long as they don't do more this is completely unjustified.
As long as BHVR don't show us any numbers, claiming that he is overperforming doesn't make any sense. I could also claim that I escape 100% of my matches as survivor without ever getting hit. How do you proof this is wrong? Obviously this is untrue but it's the same as with the Engravings' performance. Neither of us has anything to base their claims on other than experience and opinions. And since there seem to be very, very, VERY few people that think these addons are overperforming and a lot that don't, I'd say you are the one that would need to prove anything.
Are you suggesting that Blight's addons are not overperforming?!
No. Are you suggesting Blight's addons will never get addressed?! ofc they will be.
As long as BHVR don't show us any numbers, claiming that he is overperforming doesn't make any sense. I could also claim that I escape 100% of my matches as survivor without ever getting hit. How do you proof this is wrong? Obviously this is untrue but it's the same as with the Engravings' performance. Neither of us has anything to base their claims on other than experience and opinions. And since there seem to be very, very, VERY few people that think these addons are overperforming and a lot that don't, I'd say you are the one that would need to prove anything.
No, cause it you knew the numbers they would have to debate you over every single decision they make.
It would waste their time SOO MUCH.
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@Jubswest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382203#Comment_3382203
Why does otz opinion matter more than most? He is a fogwhisperer. He actually job for behavior is keeping the game healthy, half of his recommendations have gone into the game already? That's why he is not just some streamer. If anything your just some guy on a forum.
Also in any case as I wont be answering for other users but when you shown with evidence you simply dismiss it, when people give valid reasons for why billy does not deserve this nerf you either default to the addons are overperforming without even consulting why that is the case( not seeing the big picture)or simply ignore it in your response. You cherry pick what you want to argue against and your ego simply ignores the rest. I'll leave you with one saying friend
Never argue with a ignorant person, they will pull you down to their level and beat u with experience
And while the actual saying is with the term stupid, I dont belive u are stupid.
Why does otz opinion matter more than most? He is a fogwhisperer. He actually job for behavior is keeping the game healthy, half of his recommendations have gone into the game already? That's why he is not just some streamer. If anything your just some guy on a forum.
"He is the King, so he must be right" Biggest elitism energy here mate, that is all I can say.
you shown with evidence you simply dismiss it
You mean when Im shows non credible evidence. Some Youtuber isnt a good enough sample size.
when people give valid reasons for why billy does not deserve this nerf you either default to the addons are overperforming without even consulting why that is the case( not seeing the big picture)
I am yet to see a valid reason besides hearsay about those two addons, I even addressed that in my response. But I dont think bHVR even wants it that way. Addons being essential to usage of a Killer is just a bad idea.
or simply ignore it in your response. You cherry pick what you want to argue against and your ego simply ignores the rest.
If there is something you want me to address, simply @ my name and say "I want you to address ... "
@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382203#Comment_3382203
From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy. Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy.
You cant really have an addon be that essential. Ill bet you half a camel that isnt the intention or public policy I think bHVR is fully aware that most people dislike Hillbilly's addons, if not then they can survey for that information (which maybe they should) but keeping an overperforming addon in the game, just because you guys feel its the only addons you got is not gonna fly I think.
Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
Now I have seen whataboutism on this forum, and ofc some systems are related. But Blight is 100% not related to Billy, and yet he has been brought up again and again. Some other killer's addons not being touched isn't an argument for not touching a completely different killer. I really don't know why you guys try that. Blight will get his nerfs for sure, bHVR isn't a hypocrite for washing the floor when the hedge needs trimming too. Those are unrelated.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
If those addons are outliers in every billy build that overperforms, they still need to be toned down. I dont see how saying "they didnt ask why" is even a good reason, first of all you assume they dont know how those addons work and second it disregards the question if its intended for those two addons to be essential. which I dont think is a train bHVR is running on.
Idd like for you to adress if you think those two addons are intended to be essential high mmr enabler addons.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
Oof thats is rough Sailor. But I actually think the engravings have just risen since the last rework, slowly becoming part of overperforming billys again and again. idk how that is incompetency. Seems like a timely reaction to me.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382203#Comment_3382203
You forgot something. BHVR don't nerf overperforming addons. They never did. Instead they nerf addons with high pick rates. Also let's not pretend that Engravings are overperforming. They aren't. Because Billy isn't overperforming. If they were really after overperforming addons Blight would have gotten nerfed a long time ago.
BHVR are either trying to end what they started nearly 3 years ago (killing Billy for whatever reason) or they once again do random stuff that no one asked for. Have you ever heard someone call for a nerf to Billy's Engravings? Because I haven't.
You are right that Hillbilly is overdue for some changes and I think most people agree with that. But all of these changes are BUFFS. No nerfs. This killer is already in a bad spot. He is way too hard for what payoff he offers (though it's already the highest possible payoff). If any of us invested the time we have on Billy on Blight, Oni or Nurse instead we would perform way better. Have you seen how Billy players perform on the new maps? Just take GoJ or Eyrie as an example. Both are horrible for Billy. The collisions and loop geometry make him feel clunky beyond reason. Most of us would be completely fine, if they nerfed the Engravings but compensated that by adding a bit more base speed. They aren't doing that though. Instead they flat out nerf him. They never stated that he was overperforming either. They just added that as if it was some minor change no one would care about.
You're telling us you spoke to a former designer at BHVR? How is anyone supposed to believe that? Until you can back up that claim everyone will just take it as made up, no offense.
The funny part about this is that no matter how much they nerf these addons, they will still remain the ones with the highest pick rates. Because his other addons are worthless. Literally. You have an addon that reduces your bump time by so little, that it doesn't make any difference, a meme addon that nerfs him, the Junkyard Airfilter that increases his overheat limit by 20% (I don't need this!) an addon that reduces his chainsaw noises by 30% (#########?), an addon that reduces his TR by 8 metres but only when overheated (Again #########?), Mother's Helpers, Leafy Mash and Black Grease are all way too gimmicky to ever be useful, the Low Kickback Chains which reduce the bumping time but don't help him otherwise (QoL as an addon, great), Tuned Carburretor which is too situational and comes with a heavy downside, Pighouse Gloves which will only give you value in a specific build on specific maps in a specific play style that would still be worse than playing normally without addons and his iri addons which could be combined to 1 addon and would still be mostly gimmicky.
BHVR don't nerf overperforming addons. They never did. Instead they nerf addons with high pick rates. Also let's not pretend that Engravings are overperforming. They aren't. Because Billy isn't overperforming. If they were really after overperforming addons Blight would have gotten nerfed a long time ago.
I don't see how you can demonstrate that bHVR does not nerf overperforming addons without access to the stats which you don't have. So how exactly do you know this besides your opinion? Also you might wanna look above about that Blight argument too.
BHVR are either trying to end what they started nearly 3 years ago (killing Billy for whatever reason) or they once again do random stuff that no one asked for. Have you ever heard someone call for a nerf to Billy's Engravings? Because I haven't.
Someone being mad about an addon is not required for bHVR to nerf it, like can you imagine. "Sorry, we cant nerf something because we have not received a complaint." Like come on. There is no way in Hell bHVR operates like this.
You are right that Hillbilly is overdue for some changes and I think most people agree with that.
This is why I advocate for a full Billy Rework, I think bHVR is just doing some routine maintenance on a Killer that really out to get a rework. But really they are not working hard on it, they just tweak a numbers that are overdue. I think if Billy needs some changes, but that requires an entirely diffrent campaign and as we seen in this thread. People dont want him reworked in case they lose the last 7 years of their life.
You're telling us you spoke to a former designer at BHVR? How is anyone supposed to believe that? Until you can back up that claim everyone will just take it as made up, no offense.
Yeah, its just an tidbit. This is why I believe it, I don't expect you to take that reason as justified.
@Notionless said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381805#Comment_3381805
If certain addons are overperforming compared to other addons, there are several possible causes. Addons can also be OP without overperforming compared to the rest. Billy has 3 good addons, 3 decent ones and the rest are situational and unnoticable.
If a billy would like to use his power in chase like bubba, he needs to use a combination of his 3 better ones. These 3 are not excellent. Thy require skill, and dont automatically make him better, unlike c33 or MDR.
The "hard gameplay" we love is curving, and without these addons the survivor needs to make significant mistakes to get curved. So if we nerf the good curving addons, we wont curve nearly as much. Which is sad, because most billys and most survivors like curves.
Don't just take my word for it:
- Kyto did a community poll, in which Billy came out as the second most fun Killer to verse,
- Demi and Scottjund made a video each where he placed him in S-tier of theirfun to verse Tier list,
- AZHYMOVS made a community poll where Billy was also Second in ranking, He provided this graph as well.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HGUPC2QLZNTG/image.png
Now I want to ask, why do you think he needs a rework and not a Buff?
Addons can also be OP without overperforming compared to the rest.
OP in a certain situation are SITUATIONAL then, not OP. Even so if that was true, that means those situations happen far too often and that would still justify them being toned down. There is no way bHVR is gonna rework all maps just for one Killer to make sure those situations dont happen as much.
The "hard gameplay" we love is curving, and without these addons the survivor needs to make significant mistakes to get curved. So if we nerf the good curving addons, we wont curve nearly as much. Which is sad, because most billys and most survivors like curves.
I don't think sliding around a Car like it has butter or soap on it is what bHVR was going for. Neither with Blight. I have never had a Billy do that to me and felt, wow great design, really fair and balanced. I don't recall seeing bHVR putting out a statement on that. if you can find me one Ill accept it.
About the people and polls that are not official, I really think you ought to do a really big poll to figure that out, but I don't think bHVR will release the polling.
Why do you think he needs a rework and not a Buff?
- Clunky and unwieldy to play.
- Terrible addons.
- Curving (which I don't think is intentional.)
it would be easier to address all this in a new Power, rather than repurpose the repurposed Power from 2016.
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@Jubswest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381805#Comment_3381805
yes? simply put would their be this much backlash? would said streamer and otz say this is a dumb decision? from what i can see no body has made a post saying this is a welcome change? nor videos or discussions. you are the only one for this change?
your asking me to show why the earth is round. the evidence is in front of you? look at anyone's videos/ discussions/ whatever and not a single one is approving of this change?
finally if we talking about evidense here what besides your personal opinion is billy unfun to play against? or badily designed? give me that evidense
yes? simply put would their be this much backlash? would said streamer and otz say this is a dumb decision? from what i can see no body has made a post saying this is a welcome change? nor videos or discussions. you are the only one for this change?
Well its funny isnt it, bHVR is the only ones who have the numbers that show that addon overperforming. So what does it mean when Otz or any streamer comes down to say its wrong, How do they know anything? They don't. So what makes their feedback more useful than others, than mine? It does not, its not even an argument, its a fallacy, argument from popularity.
I am willing to take bHVR's side, if the addons are overperforming then they should be nerfed even if I rather want the Killer Reworked. I have no reason to believe bHVR to be working maliciously here. Sorry if you find that strange.
finally if we talking about evidense here what besides your personal opinion is billy unfun to play against? or badily designed? give me that evidense
I like when I ask for evidence, you don't provide me some, you ask my for evidence of my opinion. That is Rich. Idk if it was not clear its my opinion. Like I don't claim every user thinks Hillbilly should be reworked. But some definitely claim like 90% of players have no issue with Hillbilly, only pleasant experiences.
@alicebiscuit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381805#Comment_3381805
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FFFN57YXQFN4/screenshot-20230325-213631-youtube.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BF7V25TQT0W1/screenshot-20230325-213042-youtube.jpg
I don't think there are any peer reviewed studies on this topic my dude, but here is some supporting evidence that the person in the echo chamber isn't Vel. ;)
Twoknee isn't finished polling yet, but it's cool to see what other people think.
I love your enthusiasm, but I have no idea who Twoknee is or how his youtube community is a representative sample of the dbd Community
Also that poll said, playing AS or against.
Statistics are not THAT easy.
@gtVel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381805#Comment_3381805
The difficulty with billy directly comes from the movement speed. It's mechanical and mental difficulty from having to time everything right ON TOP of correctly guessing their actions.
This change doesn't make billy harder, just weaker. The interactive part of the power in chase is the high movement speed, high sensitivity window. Any slower directly hamstrings both the difficulty and strength. He won't have the ability to curve to the same capacity, and just have to use his saw for backrevving/zoning.
That's not skillful or difficult, just in the same way a killer like legion isn't really skillful or difficult. We're speaking about MECHANICAL skill, which is a very raw and direct thing. Aiming is another one. And just because something's being overused definitely doesn't mean it needs to be adjusted. People enjoy OPTIONS. Movement speed in chainsaw sprint directly results in more options. Same reason people use dead hard, but the difference is that you have to spend hundreds to thousands of hours to develop the muscle memory behind curving. And billy exists in a state where he can be tuned for new players because I do agree some changes should happen to make him more tolerable, but the movement speed reduction only cuts off the dedicated playerbase. Another note, that muscle memory? It's tied to the movement speed. Nerfing addons that people have had around for 7 years means that 7 years of muscle memory is being dropped. Those people aren't going to want to relearn a weaker, less interactive killer.
And the evidence for the last point you mentioned will never be enough, you're clearly discrediting that purely off of what you see as ego. You're not looking to have a conversation. And that's fine if you don't like me because you think my word may have some inherent bias, but let's refocus on the main point, alright? The mention of me streaming has zero relevance to any point in your eyes, but that's no reason to make snide comments. It shows nothing but bad faith.
You made a big response here and ill show you the time, which you show me. Now you don't use quotes here on the website so I'm unsure what each section is in response to.
The difficulty with billy directly comes from the movement speed. It's mechanical and mental difficulty from having to time everything right ON TOP of correctly guessing their actions.
This change doesn't make billy harder, just weaker. The interactive part of the power in chase is the high movement speed, high sensitivity window. Any slower directly hamstrings both the difficulty and strength. He won't have the ability to curve to the same capacity, and just have to use his saw for backrevving/zoning.
Sounds like more bad design to me, a set of addons should not be essential to his power on higher mmr. but to me, these points only show major issues with Hillbilly, which a rework could rectify. It does not really convince me to think that bHVR should let you keep an overperforming addon anyway. I talked to one of their former designers today, the guy who did those addons today, He says he knew they would come for those addons eventually.
Now if I understand that correctly and you believe those addons have that purpose, then perhaps those addons should be reworked into the Killer's basekit=? Then you have your own rework idea. But I am unsure how you can convince people of this because to anyone looking in, it just looks like everyone who plays billy at high mmr uses those addons cause they are best. You would have a good argument if this will cause a significant drop in Billy's Kill rate. But I would think bHVR could call that bluff because I know they can see the Killrate with/without those addons. I do get you I think, but its hard to confirm.
About the whole Hard part honestly you kind of just replied to a quip rather than my point on overperforming addons. Not really sure we will get anywhere discussing what is hard and what is not, pretty useless to talk about something so subjective. Weak or mechanical difficult makes it hard in like every dictionary. I do get you want a mechanically difficult Killer here.
I am also glad you agree Billy could use some changes, at least we agree on something now.
And the evidence for the last point you mentioned will never be enough, you're clearly discrediting that purely off of what you see as ego. You're not looking to have a conversation. And that's fine if you don't like me because you think my word may have some inherent bias, but let's refocus on the main point, alright? The mention of me streaming has zero relevance to any point in your eyes, but that's no reason to make snide comments. It shows nothing but bad faith.
No literally, if we could make bHVR put in a part in the next Survey that asks what is your favorite Killer to go again and if Hillbilly shows up as significantly well liked Killer to vs then I literally have to eat my words. Its rather rude you think me that dishonest.
I have no problem with you, only the arguments you have chosen to bring into this thread. That is why I quipped it.
Now weather you think Im bad faith or not means not much to me, but I do think im atleast responding directly to your replies and that isnt exactly how bad faith works mate. Maybe its an elaborate smokescreen or maybe Im here because the subject is just interesting to me.