Ecstasy
Ecstasy
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*poking my head out from a far back corner*
....Midwich honestly might be my favorite map.
*ducks back behind cover before the first wave of bottles and tomatoes land*"
I don't even care that its not well equipped for the traditional chase mechanics. It usually ends up being a fun change of pace to break up the routine, and I've had a crazy amount of fun games on that map as survivor and killer.
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Personally, I don't think there's any point in showcasing the raw potential for SWF to wipe the game. I'm pretty sure everyone knows. They all know just how grotesquely OP and unbalanced SWF (meaning Voice Coms) makes this game. Even the ones who claim otherwise.
They literally don't care.
They demand your service for the amusement of them and their friends if you want to play killer anyhow.
It's fun having that cheating level advantage and manipulating game interactions impossible in real matches.... so you must play the puppet in garbage games to ever be rewarded with any shot at some fun matches that this game is designed and balanced towards.
Since most know, I think that's why the defenses for voice comms so often focuses on misdirection (perhaps for you, but sometimes more for themselves). The argument becomes that its not a material distortion as long as they're not trying super hard to exploit it or if they already suck at the game. Or they cite "just chilling with friends" to dismiss the effect that even the most basic and casual communication has on a game where players can't even message each other in matches. Or they make it about GitGud, and point at examples of being able to beat a tryhard SWF games while neglecting the conditional imbalance required anyhow... where any group you can overcome in SWF is one you'd always stomp in any real game. It all a willful blindness (well, when not just intellectually dishonest)
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@The_Krapper said:
Yea but if they choose to play this way they're all gonna end up dead lol builds like this are why the kill rates are so high because friends will just find ridiculous stuff to try that even if it gets them killed they want to pull it off for the laughs
Missing the forest there. The OP already specified to disregard the fact that the video itself is all about mememing and getting downed.
The takeaway was the strength potential that's still evidenced here and exists to be applied with discretion in serious games. It's not the specific video/playstyle they're highlighting as the key issue.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/199822/how-to-fix-the-halloween-event
Changing it so you can earn the cosmetics for free now would just be a slap in the face for those who already payed for it.
It's a little to late for that approach
I really doubt that many people bought all of them already, but for anyone who earns the serum that's genuinely not eligible to claim any other rewards, they could easily refund them the equivalent currency they spent to make up for x many pieces.
Lord knows they could use the goodwill after slapping everyone in the face already with such blatant indifference and greed.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/199753/a-list-of-disappointments-of-4-3-0
Iridescent shards are a free way to get 4/6 of the new skins
Never Stop Slashing not having mask animations despite the fact it is possible to implement such (look at Oni f/e) and is missing a lot of details from the sketch everybody voted for (like colour of the coat)
Its a acknowledged sound bug which might actually become a feature to make spirit have to actually play the game
Discordance was a weird one I will give you that
Their main focus was and still is pc, but right now they are planning a head and working on next gen
Just because its event only now doesn't mean that isn't subject to change if community feedback is strong enough, such as plundering ultra rare items from chests or keeping bloody party streamers and escape cakes/pudding
Macmillan maps generation is bugged. They can only play so many matches with their small team of course if you generate a map a million times rather than 20-30 there can be bugs
Groaning storehouse borderline OP window, just drop chase or pick a killer with a power or perks that plays around it
Shelter woods are still shelter woods, thats the design they want if they wanted to add more to the map they would have
Thanatophobia phobia nerfed more than buffed ok, the idea was to still incentives survivors to heal having a perk that is slowdown on top of slowdown is a bit much
We are going to live forever having less amount of ways to earn tokens (Head On saves don't give tokens f/e) this one is a weird one they scuffed it a bit but having a secondary effect finally is nice
Pyramidhead nerf that horribly crippled him and his camera, oh no pyramid head has to actually play the game now, at least they made his power faster which lets you try more interesting plays
Killer having weird models and animations when spawning in the trial this doesn't even affect gameplay it just shows what the first person model actually looks like from 3rd person which is more interesting then anything harmful
most of these complaints are honestly just nitpicking to try and complain about something
Feels more like death by a thousand cuts.
If that's how you spin the negatives, then I'd love to see you run down of the benefits implemented these last few days that everyone should be celebrating instead.
What sort of improvements and festivities here are meant to inspire anyone to really show their own appreciation to BHVR by happily investing yet another $20 into this game for two seasonal outfits versus, for example, rolling the dice with the same funds to pick up 1 & 1/2 copies of Phasmophobia?
Its like the devs have no understanding of opportunity cost or elasticity.
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Dead by Daylight is all about cognitive dissonance.
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@HawkAyeTheNoo said:
How do you know your Halloween event is terrible, when on day 1 of the event some of the biggest DBD streamers and Fog Whisperers are playing another game.
Okay that's ######### hilarious.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1680590#Comment_1680590
I am not saying that SWF comms don't make a difference...but SWF comms does not define nor dictate your skill level. I am saying that people on these forums want to pigeonhole every match 'strat' used on them as "It's SWF so therefore my skill didn't matter" When there was no skill to begin with.
Why do I say this? Because there are people who will use every little move a survivor does (Taking hits, Flashlight Saves, Sabo'ing hooks, Trading hooks, etc etc) as THEY MUST BE SURVIVE WITH FRIENDS! When it simply isn't and they are just players who know the game and how it works.
You can keep saying it's not fun, it doesn't mean it is as broken as you claim it is. Like I said you are really underestimating good players (not the ones who crouch all the time, not the ones who are scared little chickens when going for a save, not the ones who don't know how to look behind them).
Just because your friend knows the killer is on them doesn't mean they aren't able to sandbag. Doesn't mean they aren't capable of losing the killer and not knowing where they went. You are assuming that that one survivor being chased knows EVERYTHING that killer is going to do. Which is not true.
The reason many people play in SWF is not because there is this gigantic advantage. It is #1 To play with their friends #2 Because they are reliable people. I play with my friends without comms sometimes and we do just as fine. We understand how the game works. I also play killer in red ranks and against swf teams... and it is just as fun for me.
You don't have to take my word for it though. Many killers out there are doing just as fine, and don't have a problem with swf teams.
I meant to reply to this awhile back but ended up distracted and rolled on, though I was dumb enough to play on the weekend at peak hours and got joyful reminder to come back to this issue. The length/scope is a bit overboard, even for me, though I'm not just addressing you and mean this to be a collective rebuttal for all.
[Quick preface: The devs explicitly declared Voice-Coms aren't cheating, though I'm just gonna call it that here with the context understood that's specifically not cheating as defined by current rules, but the nature of the game (where the inarguable distortion constitutes de facto cheating by unreasonably unbalancing the game) to avoid repetitive qualifiers making my long-ass posts even long-asser.]
Most means of cheating don't guarantee victory or make unskilled players skillful. Same as VC, they boost players of any given level beyond their actual limits and abilities. In fact, the degree of any boost typically depends on skill in part too (the better you are, the more areas you can apply the same means of cheating effectively), so, sure, SWF God squads and SWF scrubs alike. There's a grand failure to acknowledge that edge itself is an issue without "eh we could've cheated harder" ever coming into focus. Studies even show that, likewise, most people cheat for "a little edge," regulating what they could "probably" do anyhow... with the standards of "probably" relaxing over time, per challenge. All those excuses of inconsequential impact and required skill are just the default delusions for cheating in most any form.
I'd say you're generally right that people frequently mistake being out played by solo players for being out-cheated by VC at times. However, you pose another argument via context here too. Maybe not something you realized or intended, but by jumping into a topic that's basically "hey this is how we should deal with the SWF problem" and veering to "ugh people say everything is SWF," you're directly responding to their prompt with the indirect rebuttal that the issue is overblown and irrelevant at all. (Or I suppose making a total non-sequitur, but one that ends up creating that same argument when interpreted by readers). That's what I'm demolishing here.
You presented it yourself as "literally everything I do in X I do in Y" too, where its honestly no big deal and any advantages are negligible. Like you'd know to do gens still, so same diff; but, when you're taking steroids for baseball, you still hit the ball with a bat like any other game. Hell, you even score home-runs in fair games anyway too… there's still a material distortion of your performance. Here we're dealing with the accumulation of so many little factors tipped in your favor--and a flood of (even indirect) information that rivals any number of perks--in a game that can tip back & forth based on small mistakes normally. The alterations of VC are impossibly different to account for unless the game so heavily imbalanced its irrelevant anyhow. When a killer can beat your team while you're actively exploiting VC, that's just a killer who would always stomp your team in a real game.
In normal matches, even that inability to point out "hey trap right there" could be the pivot for snowballing. Of course not every potential distortion of VC impacts every match, but it doesn't require knowing every killer move to ruin the match integrity. There are far too many adjustment factors (any number of which could be significant alone) that, whatever inevitable differences do occur, they're amassed and intertwined inseparably from the match circumstances beyond recognition. To imagine that any of your accomplishments are still distinguishable skill at that point is just naive. It's like stringing together a speed run made of save states and pretending you did the whole thing at once. You simply cannot eliminate so many little imperfections, and shift all the pressure dynamics, while still feeling righteously decent because you can sometimes do those things in normal games anyhow. It's fruit from a poisoned tree.
This is still without really accounting for people fully intent on exploiting the imbalances either. When that intent exists, the distortion is so overwhelmingly negative that a bad taste lingers even for killers capable of overcoming the fixed odds. What's so insidious is that your team doesn't need to go into any match with that intent to cheat heavily. Most probably don't, making it that much easier to believe "we just have fun" since its discounting every time it doesn't end up that way. Only once things start going sour, the cheating efforts kick into gear with that irresistible urge to "rebalance" inevitably creeping forward. Players increasingly exploit those unaccounted/unbalanced interactions of VC to pull off maneuvers and coordination straight up impossible in any real game. And that's some real bullshit. Of course it erodes the fun of playing killer when some games irrationally flip on a dime to the other side's whims.
Naturally groups love it: they largely dictate the match. So it's all fun and games, unless they decide it isn't. Dismissing every distortion (and every attempt at even mitigating any of those distortions) under the premise "most groups just chill anyway" is ridiculous when all have that gateway at anytime. VC isn't any more reasonable an accommodation for players to work around without grievance than, say... letting killers use a game trainer to make walls transparent at will. Everyone just accept that most use it with good discretion, like when lost or they can't find anyone, and that makes the game more fun for everyone. Plus, its a nice challenge. And make some entertaining twitches and this game desperately depends on the twitches. And it's not every occasion, I mean, unless they want to. Sure, some will, but probably rarely... probably. Or, they only bust it out when when survivors that get too cocky, or maybe too loopy, or just a little bit too existy. You can't punish them for wanting to have fun too. Besides, it's not like that actually guarantees the killer will win. Still gotta catch 'em first, and that's pure skill there. Pure skill. So all good, right?
It could be that you're fine with the status quo--and if so, that's okay, and you're right to like what you like--however I don't know how you could possibly believe that most everyone else is just dandy when there's a clear killer deficit in this game. I'd think that's a sign of something seriously wrong when that side already only needs one player for the other four, and gets to be the badass pop-culture horror icon. Seems more likely to have the opposite queue times.
If most killers are really alright with it, then I'd have to think that's because the ones who aren't happy about it have already quit playing killer, if not DBD entirely. Even without being red-ranks (or maybe explicitly because of it on either side) I know for sure there's still a killer shortage the higher the ranks, or they wouldn't be mixing up even red rank solo survivor against killers literally ten levels beneath them so damn frequently. That alone is probably a major recipe for burn out when a lot of people perceive a skill difference between Rank 2 and Rank 1 survivor skill levels. When you start tossing in the voice-comms of even just two players onto that whole mess, well, it shouldn't really take much convincing to predict a fire hazard burning through new and old players alike to devastate retention levels that should be way higher.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1678132#Comment_1678132
Thank you. It’s ridiculous the number of times I’ve seen killers asking “swf?” or even going off on a rant about coordinated SWF teams when there are like 2 or 3 Kindreds clearly visible in the post-game screen. I had a Deathslinger not long ago who camped and raged about us rushing gens while he camped (“that shows you’re all in a SWF!”) when his aura was clearly visible to everyone because the poor dude on hook had Kindred.
Playing altruistically, or playing with some level of strategy does not mean SWF. If you play enough solo, you learn to play well without comms. You don’t have to be in a pre-made team to understand teamwork. There are a lot of players out there who use SWF as some sort of scapegoat or excuse for every bad game. It’s quite annoying.
This is true, though I've also been on survivor side of this where the killer has asked and I tell them I'm solo since I am and that's all I can say for sure, but times where I've also suspected the same that the other three players were SWF at least. As a solo survivor we don't always know that stuff either. Actually... I don't think I've ever seen this question answered with a yes. (That and sometimes when the given answers is "no" the chat itself is so toxic and vitriolic that I don't really think it's the sort of thing they'd admit too anyhow)
Even though this very much happens with people mistaking their own errors for inherent disadvantage, it should still be noted that this itself isn't indicative that SWF games aren't a real problem. As a matter of fact, that confusion is just another consequences from SWF that bleeds into the game elsewhere. Player legitimately cannot tell most of the time where they're defeated by pure skill or also because the other side had access to information and coordination that's straight up impossible in any normal game. Next side effect there being that players have a hell of a time ever actually gauging their own skill level and recognizing where they really screwed up.
It's particularly silly though because it's such a needless side-effect to suffer. If there's one thing I think everyone can agree on it's that they could at the very least disclose SWF at the end of the match with all the other information details they reveal. There just no reasonable excuses for why they wouldn't disclose the information and so many benefits to gain.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I know this is gonna come as a shock.
But everything I have seen listed that SWF can do, can also be done by good players even if they are in a Solo Q.
I feel like at point this SWF conversation has reached its limit where we are now just listening to excuses.
Literally everything I do in a SWF team, I do in a solo match. Why? Because if you are a good player you can still coordinate accordingly.
This perception ("nah, good players just know what to do") is the excuse here, and a rather ridiculous once you actually break down the differences that "skill" is trying to take credit for here.
There's a thread where I've been burning through a lot of the simple arguments people make in defense of SWF (meaning Voice Comms), and outlining how they're patently false. They're far too substantial to quote all of here, but I'll post the one I'd made that absolutely shreds this misconception apart and link the thread.
I'd have sworn that thread was already in the general discussion forum, but looking now it seems to be in the feedback section. Weird. Stealth nerf to bury the discussion? Stealth buff to make sure it gets heard? Or maybe I'm wrong and always there.
Here's the thread, with this link directly going to the argument I'm going to quote below.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1669999#Comment_1669999
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The only times VC "doesn't mean anything" are matches where the skill levels are inherently unbalanced, and you're facing a team who you would always stomp in normal gameplay. Even casual VC is a crazy huge difference when this game does not take the changes into consideration or balance in any meaningful ways. No, it doesn't make individual players better at looping, or hiding, or skill checks--the benefits massively exceed that something far beyond that which dramatically shifts the gameplay to a different beast entirely.
The impact of being able to just say "hey I saw the NOED totem!" while being dragged to a hook is HUGE! Just in the early game something like "hey there's a trap right there" during a rescue could be the pivotal moment that ends up shifting a 0K to a 4K in a match that's actually balanced with how essential that early game is and the sort of momentum that can snowball from downing the savior and pulling the other 2 off the gens. Even the simplicity of "hey there's no traps around" is a huge boon when that 10 seconds of caution per occurrence is something that rivals the benefits of some time-waster perks.
VC is like everyone has the obsession skull marking where they know if you're in a chase, but obviously better because that means being able to rely information as it happens, heads there direction, or if its really over vs evaded temporarily.
VC is like everyone having kindred, but better obviously because you don't need to ever wait and see who's gonna stay and who will go for the rescue.
VC makes every killer into a plague or pig where everyone sees who they're up against as soon as one of them does and it eliminates those other few chances of catching someone off guard when early game is the most critical time for killers to start putting on pressure.
VC lets everyone know everything as soon as one player does and pool knowledge/experiences to determine your perks together.
VC is like everyone has distraction except instead of 20/30/40 meters they can orchestrate it across the map with the cooldown based only on however many second of the other player's time it takes.
VC adds a long range spine-chill where you get to know if the killer is coming from the other side of the map as long as someone else sees them pivot directions.
VC is a dulled version of the map marker where you can use any recognizable spot for meeting or decide whose going to which exit gate.
VC changes the whole dynamic towards optimization and compartmentalization where "the team" ends up being as strong as its strongest player instead of its weakest. Hell, it's the difference between being a "team" at all versus the asymmetrical gameplay of killer versus survivors who benefit from (but not beholden to) mutually beneficial cooperation. The whole idea of the survivor side is "survivor together... or alone" and creates that risk/reward of altruism and cooperation.
The list goes on and on... and, again, that's just casually. That's NOTHING if accounting for the game modifiers that come when skilled players are determined to bust this games wide open and start exploiting things like object of obsession. Any match balanced when the players don't have communication cannot also be balanced if those players had the benefit of communication. Period. One is balanced or the other. Never both.
I think anyone who (sincerely) says they "prefer the challenge" is mistaking the meaningful variable. It's really that the ranking system is so out of whack (and that's no surprise) they would've been paired with players below their performance level anyhow in that match. It's not "the challenge" of voice communication that's enjoyable sometimes. It's just that it changes things up with random cheats/debuffs that make bad "teams" they'd face decent. If you take any balanced/reasonable match-up and suddenly go from no communication to complete communication then the difference of voice communication means an opponent (ie, the teem in total, not each individual) can shift from good to damn near godly.
GitGud isn't the issue. Never has been, never will be. The issue is that "Dead By Daylight" offers 2 incredibly different games, but when you play killer you don't actually get a choice whether you'll play the fun one or not. You don't even get to know which one you're playing for sure, and most of the time you won't know until you're a goodway into things either. One game is balanced fun, and the other game just isn't. It's not fun watching gens go pop pop pop while you're in a single chase with their designated looper because VC lets you optimize and coordinate. It's not fun trying to find someone and having to dig behind every rock in futility because they were given a heads up in time to run off before you even got close. It's not fun having to run moris or tunnel the first player because leveling the playing field early on is your only chance of catching up to anything more than an end-game camp. It's not fun when the game is stripped of so many little variables of chance and confusion that otherwise yield interesting and unpredictable because some people would rather just cruise to the finish line when those chaotic elements are the very reason essence that makes games worth playing.
Its. Just. Not. Fun.
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@Ramxenoc445 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1677616#Comment_1677616
After reading all that I don't even really know what to say to you. There will be fun and not fun games, not sure why so many killers like to throw it at SWF but, you're gonna have to deal with it regardless if you choose to play this game. The closest we got to some kind of nerf to SWF was MMR Skill based matches and that turned out to be much worse than what it is now. Was getting matched with rank 18s everytime I played against that killer for the day and the occasional high ranked killer. They tried to make the matchmaking also take the rank of the higher survivor and I don't remember if they disabled it or not but it seems to do an average now. I am like 98% sure there will NEVER be any kind of change to SWF. They already know how the community is so they aren't going to show you if you're against a SWF and if they do it'll be at the end. They've also said they wouldn't nerf SWF so..these topics about it are dead in the water before they even get posted. Not sure what to say to you or the others but maybe play a game you think is more fun and or better.
To be clear, I mean obviously there are always games that are fun and not, but there's this other factor on top of that usual distribution. Here it's like... okay, half the games you'll also have to play with a muskrat in your pants. Why? Well, I don't know, some people like it... particularly the other team. So I'd really like to, y'know, opt out of muskrat matches.
No doubt some games will still suck... but the natural levels are a whole lot lower, and usually for very different reasons. VC matches just aren't the same mechanically since this game refuses to balance around such a crazy huge shift in circumstances that renders some features/strategies muted, or even irrelevant. It's hardly the same game concept even, being 4 vs 1 coordinated cooperation instead of that 1 & 1 & 1 & 1 vs 1 with higher stakes of self-interest vs altruism.
Actually, I suppose a better comparison would be a game that doesn't punish hackers at all. That's more in-line with the way VC breaks open the game too, rather than just the frustration (but I like the muskrat example). There are still fun & fair matches, but a lot needlessly aren't. It's all dismissed with "well, its fun for the hackers that way," and you're expected to just accept that. It's certainly a position, but... shrug.
This is where I stand as someone who doesn't give a ######### about 4Ks, or whatever 'winning' means, or much of anything beyond chilling out for a fun match. I think, or at least feel, that I'm the sort of person this game was designed to appeal towards most. And I vastly prefer those games with 8 hooks throughout and no kills over any VC game (where after the first hook or two, they've got tabs on me across the map to spread & shred gens optimally) that ends up with a 4K because an end-game camp-off lets me punish them for leaving no man behind.
Maybe things never change. Maybe I'll burn out soon anyhow. But, in the meantime, I'm going to keep making my case because I've got a legitimate beef and I'm stubborn as hell. If that doesn't work, well, maybe Ill just make my own
ripofff game of their own ripoff charactershomage game of their own homage characters... starring The Tracker! The Wrath! The Nun! The Thrillbillly! With hookers! And blackjack!It just sucks though because DBD is something that should--and still realistically could--be my favorite game of all time. That vision still lurks beneath the grit and grime even, but this neglected manifestation just isn't an investment I'd recommend as remotely worth the time/money to anyone new. Friends and enemies alike.
In fact, whenever they do those player satisfaction surveys, where they ask you how likely you are to recommend this game to friends, I literally punch through my monitor onto the internet and use my mangled hang to write LOL on the form in blood.
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@Ramxenoc445 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1674377#Comment_1674377
I play killer too. My thing is I've beaten SWF with Legion and they aren't the worst killer in the game but they're down there. If I can do it so you can you. Try different perks or play differently. You know you're at a disadvantage against a SWF so stop playing into the info they can give. Stop chasing someone for too long just injure them if you can and go for the next one. Use blood warden it gets them every ######### time if you activate it. You know they're not gonna leave till everyone is escaping or till the one they wanna save is dead. Play differently SWF does not need to be nerfed to compensate for you being at a disadvantage because they can talk. You can do that in every multiplayer game DBD is not an exception. It's a game. You don't find it fair and no it's not if that's what you want me to admit but again most SWF groups are not actually good. You just lose for whatever reason we can give. Just play better or if you know they're SWF just say " oh well no way I could've won anyway" and go on to your next game. It's not that big of a deal. Sure the toxic ones I'm not advocating for but again you play the game and you know what can happen. You take that chance by playing this damn game. With how you talk you seem smart go play something else or do something better with your life that will use that brain of yours for something beneficial to you.
The fact that you can beat a given SWF group means absolutely nothing except that you were already up against a team who you would've beaten any day of the week in a fair game. That's literally it.
The fact that not every SWF is a guaranteed loss doesn't actually make those matches fun at all. The fact you can even step it up going all-out doesn't even amount to much when you don't know when you're going against them to actually prepare. The fact that playing dirty and sweaty are good ways of closing that gap doesn't stop that attitude bleeding into the fair/fun games to worsen things for solo players too. The fact that better opponents make better players sure doesn't mean anything when they're so outclassed that they can't pick up on anything except that their pee-wee football coach & former semi-pro linebacker just gave them a concussion with a full speed tackle. The fact that players need to get better doesn't mean anything when they're so demoralized (and concussed) that they quit forever.
The fact that other games have voice chat means absolutely nothing when many others don't... including this game in its pure form--with nothing even remotely close, even basic text, for mirroring the sort of huge advantages of communication provides--and here the most advanced communication you can send to other players across the map is a vague hook signal where players flap their ######### arms and hope others understand.
I've beaten SWF matches too--they're usually still not much fun. Those moments sure as hell doesn't make up for all the garbage matches you're forced to eat either, just because players feel entitled to team up against someone vastly less experienced already, and then break the normal game mechanics wide open to show their friends a good time by stomping as hard--or as very hard--as they deem appropriate. On their end, it's all good cause their friend gets to have a little fun, but mama bird can sweep in to make sure things don't get a little too fair. For the sap having to play the prey that round, it's another step towards the toxicity cycle that's come to define this game.
The only real point you're left with ultimately amounts to one thing, and that's "I like things just how they are, so don't touch anything" …but, in all honesty, I guess that's actually the one argument that I can't really refute. You want what you want; and you like what you like. Well, okay.
You're entitled to your opinion and preferences. All I can do is callout the other logic that people use to prop up SWF/VC as legit somehow when really just rationalizing what they want instead of admitting it. There's very little wiggle room when it comes to breaking down assertions of fact people make about VC in SWF, so it's pretty easy to show it sure as hell isn't a fair setup. Or to show: it's not much fun for the other player, and usually the exact opposite. It's not an insignificant advantage or minor variation. It's not a matter of 50/75/100 percent of all players having those game-breaking benefits. It's not about them being godly, unbeatable, or whether most of them still suck. It's not something that realistically better shapes and improves opponents. It's not something this game depends on to survive. It's not about punishing people for playing with their friends. It's not a the best solution by a long shot, or even a necessary evil. It's not the only way of doing things and it won't doom everyone even just trying to look for a better way.
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@Ramxenoc445 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1672561#Comment_1672561
I'm not reading all that. First of all they literally can't do ######### about me using discord also I can use my phone they can't do shiiit about it, second thing being yeah git gud and move on, third thing if you already quit who cares. Play something that caters to you. The game is still alive and thriving and I'm pretty sure they've already given a no on this topic multiple times. Git gud. Also you may not realize I also play killer. I main Legion. I have, and will get beaten by a SWF. But I've also beaten them and they've left salty or congratulated me for beating them. So again git gud.
I've basically dismantled these talking points in the post you neglected or others in this thread. So if you care to take a look and jump to some sort of counter-arguments, I'm game. However, I don't any sense in covering the fundamentals again just for you when you're dismissing everything already with an active refusal to
GitGud at reading, reason, and discussionengage my efforts in good-faith & consider alternative POVs.That's the core entitlement; you expect to be catered to with your own cheat-sheet and be heard as if your opinion matters just because it's your opinion. There's not even any pretense that you've evaluated the situation/arguments to logical conclusions, or understand the problem that people who aren't you perceive still. That's why you presume it's all about 4Ks and not fun. That's why you interpret any changes as you being "punished" instead of attempts at balancing how your fun already isn't fun for them--nevermind daring to give them any choice in the matter. And that's why you stubbornly insist the status quo is perfect when it so clearly is not. Yet there are better alternatives.
However, you are right about some of the proposed solutions warping the game I suppose. But the aspect you've glossed over is that these elaborate changes proposed are only so damn complex because they're specifically catering to your perspective as well. They're trying to find the best alternative for a reasonable middle-ground for everyone here. You couldn't even argue distortion if we're talking the easy/obvious/fair solution: everyone gets to choose whether to play with/against teams or not... but we all know that's what SWF advocates want least of all here. [Because even they believe that no one actually wants to go against SWF, looping us back to admit that of course it's a broken & unfun]. You're faulting people for greedily wanting to distort the game when, ironically, we're the ones trying to play this game in its purest form.
You can frame it as a matter of our entitlement--like we want this game to be something else entirely, so we should abandon it--but, the thing is, the game we want already does exist here. Obviously the mode where people communicate instantly is the deformed one when the base game doesn't even provide a means to even type messages to other players at your own peril. It's your variation that we're forced to put up with half the time--just so we can maybe play the fun one--that's distorted. You're cool with that--and that's okay too--but a lot of people aren't. In fact, so many people that this game has to hide going up against SWF... or no one will freaking play them. Now that sounds like an inherent problem where one game is fun and the other just isn't. Not GitGud, not 4K lust, not ezy pickins. Just not fun.
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@Ramxenoc445 said:
No. If they ever give in to killers like you that refuse to actually get better and deal with SWF and Nerf them just because this game will die and your queue times will shoot up for those still playing. You're never getting a SWF Nerf. It just punishes people for playing with friends. My SWF group I'm the ONLY one who is always a red rank on both sides. The rest hardly play so if they got punished for playing with me they'd stop playing and so many other people would as well. It'll never happen because it's a dumb idea. There is a reason they never respond to these ideas and the one time they did they said they wouldn't Nerf SWF for reasons similar to if not the same as what I said. Know what they did say they considered? Making kindred base for solo players to have more info. You as a killer don't want that because SWF or not they'll know where you are.
This represents just about every terrible argument for ignoring the massive issues with SWF (via voice-com) rolled into one post, and doesn't address a single one of its issues directly in favor of logical fallacies and unsupported claims. (With your next post already escalating to direct insults too... dude)
When something is never going to happen, you never actually need to concern yourself with fighting to ensure it won't happen.
You never need to be salty as sin, dismiss people as "refusing to actually get better," or even bother trying to seriously argue they should just shut up and accept the oppressive slog games for the amusement of you & your friends. That's entitlement at its core. Not to mention it's ridiculously hypocritical that you're arguing other people need to GitGud to overcome the cheating-level advantages required to keep your friends playing this game, as they refuse to get better on their own. All that said without any regard for the indisputable imbalance you're demanding being what renders most killer games negative fun--and fun is supposed to the driving factor for them too here.
I'm not at that point yet, but when this game stops being fun... I stop playing. I'm speaking as someone who did quit for over a year until pretty recently. Last time I left, it was essentially the same bullshit. Matching-ups against teams & coordination in a game that refuses to design for it makes playing killer increasingly un-chill, especially as you rank up, and all those experiences just bleed over into solo survivor to ruin that too. Killers need to play assuming the worst just to keep up with potential SWF, so they go rough/dirty from the start, and end up taking it out on their next match, whether they meant to or not. And it's always those veteran/red-rank players you run into (the ones who still stick around long after fun is negative) who are the saltiest and most toxic of all. If anything, Dead By Daylight thrives despite SWF VC, not because of it.
You insist that any changes would kill the game? Okay, well that's your claim to prove. You don't automatically get to attribute all the success of DBD to the bully simulator aspects. Especially not when that element is also clearly responsible for so, so much of the toxicity and bullshit that sheds away players and gives this game its bad reputation. The cycle of aggravation that reinforces players needing to move to SFW doesn't represent inherent necessity when you can break that cycle instead.
Here's the other thing, even if--that's even if--you're right about decimating its player base, then its not like most potential solutions couldn't be reversed just as easily. You've got one example of anecdotal evidence that three people might stop playing. I don't know about the theoretical, though I did hear about an actual killer exodus in the time I stopped playing. And people still frequently quit this game or switch over to survivor exclusively to get away from the neglected slog that players like you demand. Because somehow any attempts at balance are really just "punishing" you... even allowing them a damn choice in the matter. Here's my claim and it's self evident: there's no game at all without someone willing to put up with playing the killer.
From the tomes, to crossplay, to the web loot; they're doing a lot of creative and cool things to boost the killer player-base artificially. But that's only gonna go so far until they address the core problem. This is a game that requires 4 times as many players on one side as the other, and the one includes some of the biggest pop culture icons around while essentially the badass role, yet somehow it's easier to get a game as a killer. You'd expect the queue to play killer to be about four times longer... not shorter.
PS: Kindred should be included for all survivors. That's a damn good start. Whispers for all killers too. Both help improve the gameplay/fun factors, are all around useful, and shouldn't really require a perk-slot.
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I was playing a hockey-mask Meg up against Trapper in the memorial hospital. It started out like any normal game where he was putting down traps and whacking survivors until we ran into each other at that fancier office in the middle of the hospital. Y'know the one with the nice leather chair--and sometimes a gen, but not always--and there's that weird little vault spot, which I guess is suppose to be a window but the view is a hallway.
Well, that little spot with the window looking across is where we met mask to mask. We just both stared, and it was like looking into a mirror. So when he'd turn his head, I'd turn my head. He'd go into the set a trap animation, and I'd crouch. He'd spin, I'd spin. This went of for a long time. Eventually he crossed into the mirror, so I crossed to the other side too. And did the same thing even longer from the switched sides. And switched sides a few more times and did even more mime'ing.
Eventually Feng, that #########, interrupted us and we both ended up going separate ways. The gens were almost done by then anyhow.
But I went to go find him again during EGC and finally caught up to him at the other exit gate while the hospital was crumbling around us. I tried to get him to hook me, but he just walked me to the gate. I didn't want to go. He set down a trap in there, and I stepped into it in case my message wasn't clear... but he picked me up out of it and set me on the ground to crawl out the gates before the entire place was wiped into oblivion.
I miss my trapper husbando.
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@cyniChris said:
Not every SWF is a tournament-level team. Not every SWF knows the maps inside out. The vast majority of SWF groups are just friends playing together for fun.
But sure, let's punish them for wanting to enjoy a videogame together.
Yeah, it's frustrating when you run into good SWF groups, but at the same time, you could run into 4 really good randoms and still have the same result. If there was a way to tell if survivors were in a group together, I feel like a lot of people who complain about SWF will have their eyes opened to the simple fact that they're not always facing god-tier SWFs!
What's interesting is that I don't think there's anyone who really disagrees with the idea that SWF pairings should be disclosed after the game like all the other details. Whether you're someone who thinks the problem is overblown or game-destroying, it seems that everyone actually agrees about something being in the best interest of all for once.
Maybe it'll reveal something one way or the other, but either-way when you're playing killer you'll finally know where you were entirely stomped by skill alone and where 50/75/100% of the survivors likely operated with a huge advantage. At the very least, killers can better gauge their own skill and recognize where they're most needing to GitGud.
Can't really understand why they wouldn't do this. Just toss some sand on the fire already, y'know.
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@Thasard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1664524#Comment_1664524
See if all you do is put people down to try to get your point across, no one is going to listen to you. So good luck with that.
Dude. Perspective. When you refuse to actually read the argument that someone lays out in depth yet still feel entitled to voice your own opinion, then no one ever should listen to anything you've got to say. Insulting you is the least of all barriers when you're engaging in bad faith already and only responded from a position of ego to dictate truth, as you see it. The point would never get across, and there's no use pretending otherwise.
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I think it's kind of like, okay, you know in highschool football where at the end of the game they always have you walk past the other team in a line after the game ends and mumble good game thirty times in a row, even if it was a blowout.
It's not done with cocky enthusiasm, and very much the inverse with a sense of placation and humility on both sides in in recognition that its all just a game and now symbolically all behind you. You do it when you win; you do it when you lose; no hard feelings; and a reminder games are for fun and not something to carry forward.
It's just goodsportsmenship and respect, but there's no one is making you and you do it because you're the adult now.
GG EZ would be the exact opposite where you're matching past and talking trash like a tool because the coaches weren't paying attention to call you a shithead and make you run laps later for making everyone look bad. When players do that it's because there's no adult in the room to tell them otherwise.
Teabagging at the exit gates is like spiking the football after the touchdown, much like its defenders claim. Except they densely fail to realize that's not actually an acceptable practice and you rarely see it done in the real world. Also cause in a professional game that's the sort of thing they'll literally fine you a 100 grand for doing.
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The only times VC "doesn't mean anything" are matches where the skill levels are inherently unbalanced, and you're facing a team who you would always stomp in normal gameplay. Even casual VC is a crazy huge difference when this game does not take the changes into consideration or balance in any meaningful ways. No, it doesn't make individual players better at looping, or hiding, or skill checks--the benefits massively exceed that something far beyond that which dramatically shifts the gameplay to a different beast entirely.
The impact of being able to just say "hey I saw the NOED totem!" while being dragged to a hook is HUGE! Just in the early game something like "hey there's a trap right there" during a rescue could be the pivotal moment that ends up shifting a 0K to a 4K in a match that's actually balanced with how essential that early game is and the sort of momentum that can snowball from downing the savior and pulling the other 2 off the gens. Even the simplicity of "hey there's no traps around" is a huge boon when that 10 seconds of caution per occurrence is something that rivals the benefits of some time-waster perks.
VC is like everyone has the obsession skull marking where they know if you're in a chase, but obviously better because that means being able to rely information as it happens, heads there direction, or if its really over vs evaded temporarily.
VC is like everyone having kindred, but better obviously because you don't need to ever wait and see who's gonna stay and who will go for the rescue.
VC makes every killer into a plague or pig where everyone sees who they're up against as soon as one of them does and it eliminates those other few chances of catching someone off guard when early game is the most critical time for killers to start putting on pressure.
VC lets everyone know everything as soon as one player does and pool knowledge/experiences to determine your perks together.
VC is like everyone has distraction except instead of 20/30/40 meters they can orchestrate it across the map with the cooldown based only on however many second of the other player's time it takes.
VC adds a long range spine-chill where you get to know if the killer is coming from the other side of the map as long as someone else sees them pivot directions.
VC is a dulled version of the map marker where you can use any recognizable spot for meeting or decide whose going to which exit gate.
VC changes the whole dynamic towards optimization and compartmentalization where "the team" ends up being as strong as its strongest player instead of its weakest. Hell, it's the difference between being a "team" at all versus the asymmetrical gameplay of killer versus survivors who benefit from (but not beholden to) mutually beneficial cooperation. The whole idea of the survivor side is "survivor together... or alone" and creates that risk/reward of altruism and cooperation.
The list goes on and on... and, again, that's just casually. That's NOTHING if accounting for the game modifiers that come when skilled players are determined to bust this games wide open and start exploiting things like object of obsession. Any match balanced when the players don't have communication cannot also be balanced if those players had the benefit of communication. Period. One is balanced or the other. Never both.
I think anyone who (sincerely) says they "prefer the challenge" is mistaking the meaningful variable. It's really that the ranking system is so out of whack (and that's no surprise) they would've been paired with players below their performance level anyhow in that match. It's not "the challenge" of voice communication that's enjoyable sometimes. It's just that it changes things up with random cheats/debuffs that make bad "teams" they'd face decent. If you take any balanced/reasonable match-up and suddenly go from no communication to complete communication then the difference of voice communication means an opponent (ie, the teem in total, not each individual) can shift from good to damn near godly.
GitGud isn't the issue. Never has been, never will be. The issue is that "Dead By Daylight" offers 2 incredibly different games, but when you play killer you don't actually get a choice whether you'll play the fun one or not. You don't even get to know which one you're playing for sure, and most of the time you won't know until you're a goodway into things either. One game is balanced fun, and the other game just isn't. It's not fun watching gens go pop pop pop while you're in a single chase with their designated looper because VC lets you optimize and coordinate. It's not fun trying to find someone and having to dig behind every rock in futility because they were given a heads up in time to run off before you even got close. It's not fun having to run moris or tunnel the first player because leveling the playing field early on is your only chance of catching up to anything more than an end-game camp. It's not fun when the game is stripped of so many little variables of chance and confusion that otherwise yield interesting and unpredictable because some people would rather just cruise to the finish line when those chaotic elements are the very reason essence that makes games worth playing.
Its. Just. Not. Fun.
(Thank you all for reading. This has been my daily VC rant, see my post history for much, much more)
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Most laws and rules don't actually control or stop people from doing anything. They set a standard of conduct, and punish the people they do catch. The developers should wake up to the fact its a cheating level advantage and finally declare it cheating isn't of just saying "nah all good."
At the bare minimum they could announce "hey guy you shouldn't do that anymore because it really does ruin this game, and we refuse to just include it in the base game and just balance around it," and at least there won't be so much of it and not out in the open as acceptable. Even many of the players who do still keep abusing VC wouldn't bust it out as heavily since that tends to be how cheating works mentally and most would face some self recognition of being scummy as hell.
I mean for ######### sake if its even close to balanced then they'd at least let solo players type messages to each other in-game. Solutions don't need to be perfect, just better. And, ideally, you go for the best feasibly alternative. It'd help if they punish people too, but they only need to punish the people they know for sure. So basically anyone dumb enough to upload video of themselves doing it.
So many people pretend that this game would die out if that happened, but that's just more bullshit taking credit it for all the natural growth of such an inherently awesome idea and (can be) an incredibly fun game that's grown and developed over the years. They lump in every stream and tube and new player that plays as if inherent & inseparable from sharing information when most of that stuff isn't "wow look at this team!" in the first damn place.
It's the killer side they're constantly (and creatively) trying to boost up and prevent from fleeing the game already or switching exclusively to survivor. Almost every major complaint and issue with the game roots back (in some form or another) to randomly switching between matches where players sometimes have perfect communication and sometimes they don't, in game that's designed and balanced around the idea that they don't.
(Thank you all for reading. This has been my daily VC rant, see my post history for much, much more)
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
Learn to play this game properly. Selfmade problem solved.
Agreed. Ban voice communication.
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@Xyvielia said:
RAGE quitting is a Stereotype that cannot be applied to ALL players.
There should be a differentiation between player’s current emotional status during Disconnects.
A intentional DC is a DC no matter what, always inappropriate and should be frowned upon by the community.
Nevertheless, to insinuate that ALL players who DC from a match are “RAGE” quitting would imply that their current mood or temperament is that of a infuriated nature.
We never cannot know this truth, ever.
I’ve personally watched streamers DC from matches calm, peaceful and content to step into another opportunity... no RAGE, no anger, no aggression, no hostility, no infuriation. Simply a mild mannered, calm demeanor, same-happy-mood DC.
Calling everyone who DC’s a RAGE quitter is both inaccurate and incorrect.
I cannot believe the players in any community, and especially the Devs of games, use this as a generalization toward other players.
Players should never DC, period... intentional disconnecting is Quitting (which absolutely makes them a Quitter) but they shouldn’t be labeled as “RAGING” when this isn’t always (quite possibly seldom is) the case.
Quitting is rude to everyone.
Calling all people who quit ENRAGED is also rude.
I hear people using this term all the time, and I just thought I’d spotlight that truth.
I, uh, I suppose that expression is inconsiderate of the feelings of the people who disconnect without considering the feelings of other people.
I guess that's hypocritical... I guess?
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@bm33 said:
PC players DC just as much as console. PC complained about it a ton before crossplay which is why a DC penalty was put in place before crossplay, it was an issue for ALL platforms. It just seems like other platforms do it more because the DC penalty was removed shortly after crossplay was enabled so they've become an issue again and you're now seeing other platforms more often than your own.
Hrm. Maybe I am underestimating just how many other platform players I see in total compared to PC these days. I was thinking about this, and turned off crossplay today to see if things were any different and my first two killer matches were teabagathons in game and at gates. I mean it was just the one player in each game, but that basically reinforces the point too. If I'm actually getting like 80% of all players from other consoles after all and just didn't realize it was that many, then I guess that math would line up for being the grand majority of t-bags and d-bags.
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@Stinde said:
As a console player, please don't generalise every console player like that. I don't think it's because "they just rage when they get downed" or anything like that for the most part. Crossplay on the game can be EXTREMELY stuttering and the status related frame drops got WAY WORSE after the cp implementation.
Even when repairing a gen or getting hit without sloppy my game very often skips frames so that even when I'm holding my camera towards a certain direction etc. it suddenly just points 90 degrees in different direction and I'm running towards a tree or missing a skill check. It's infuriating and the childish, condescending PC players laughing at us because of things beyond our control doesn't feel very nice. The console optimization is ######### and the map updates, new gens and some animations didn't help at all.
And believe me, the most toxic console players kept the crossplay off. There's no other type of survivor playing cp off anymore than toxic bully squads cheesing the aim dressing at every possible moment. And that's probably the reason they keep the cp off; they cannot cheese the aim dressing so easily against a PC killer and would derank back to green ranks because they don't know how to actually loop. My killer experience has gotten so bad after the cp implementation because were it on or off I get the worst of both options. Survivor isn't nice either because of the optimization and at certain hours the queue times are 20 minutes eith cp off. If on some matches I get constant frame drops and stutters, I'd rather find a new match since they make me dizzy and cause headache.
I think being a generalization is sort of locked into even making this observation, but that doesn't mean every console player is that way. I've encountered many swell players on crossplay, and even times where I'd expected someone to quit and been surprised that they stuck it out. I get how my post comes across like that though.
This isn't some PCMASTERRACE garbage or anything. I actually use a controller to play too and would prefer to be matched with people who do the same if those sorts of preferences were available. I've got no take on the quality of console vs pc players that others express on the forums here. This is something I'm experiencing outside of all that, and part of why the discrepancy stands out to me so much is because I never expected there to be any.
I've encountered a lot of crazy things too--straight up teleporting during a match even--though I'm not including any pregame disconnects or other seemingly random ones in the pattern. I'm very specifically talking about ones that are toe-to-toe with ragequit moments. I dunno. It could be coincidence most frequently go zoom when downed/hooked, or (maybe and) some sort of genuine system error that just lines up with rage moments.
I mean literally all of this could be coincidence anyhow... well, not the teabagging trend. That's gotta be intent--or at least the coincidence there being just getting so much more of that specific toxicity type players on one platform compared to the other. (However my guess is exit-bagging is probably something that's got so much momentum because there's no chat to yell at people afterwards too.)
Whatever the case, I'm definitely seeing this stuff in statistically meaningful terms. This isn't a thread I'd post on a whim without mulling the thing over myself to question observation bias and sample size (even if anecdotal in the end), and just keep running into the same things on killer and survivor. I guess that's why I'm asking if this is a thing for anyone else here.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1663729#Comment_1663729
You can't prevent people from using programs like Discord, so that "no comms" thing isn't going to happen.
Many people did, in fact, bother with it when the game came out, and I'll bet you just as many (percentage-wise) would do so even today, especially since you're blocking all groups other than a full 4-man SWF from queuing up together.
Personally I wouldn't because it was a pain in the ass then and would be a pain in the ass now, but many people would and you'd have no way of proving it.
I'm not even playing devil's advocate, this is just me telling you what happened when something similar was in effect way back when. I also disagree wholeheartedly that this would be a step in a better direction. From the last data I remember seeing, most SWF groups are either 2-man or 3-man. That means you've effectively told a substantial chunk of the survivor population that they're not allowed to play with their friends any more. This is not a step in the right direction, this is a step toward a dead game.
Eh, saying they can't prevent people from using Discord is a bit of a red herring. Most laws/rules don't and can't actually prevent people from doing whatever. They set standards for acceptable behavior and punish the people who they do catch.
You can't stop people from stream sniping either, but there are plenty of games that implement that level of conduct too which is even harder to prove and more dependent on the honor system. Hell, they even enforce those rules when they can too despite requiring more effort and scrutiny on their parts to do correctly.
Even just not condoning something has a measureable effect, so that's a change from BHVR's current position of "Hecks yeah guys, cheat all you want. Actually y'know what? it's not even cheating. Boom. There ya go. Be sure to check out our flashy cosmetics to make that bullying extra sweet"
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@azame said:
I feel like I'm at an incredible disadvantage when solo survivor. I uploaded a video where I ran the killer for 5 minutes and only a single gen was done. Also in this game a survivor had disconnected. Solo survivor is just unfun.
I'm never matched up with players that are good or as good as me. It's always players who urban around the map or cant hold a chase. When I'm hooked I've been left to die or left to get second state.
Out of all the swf post solo is not talked about enough. Solo is very bad right now. It's so bad that it encourages swf play because you rather not play with bad randoms.
Just a short rant solo is just bothering me lately.
I mean this is another one of those problems that's actually exacerbated by swf/voice communication existing too. (And you could still play with friends without most of the related issues if the devs finally get real and just banned voice communication, or genuinely balanced for it, or just nutted up and added to the ######### game.)
Solo survivor skills/ranks are especially screwy because of getting boosted playing with better people (against same rank opponents) and at a game destroying advantage. Of course they suck once the conditions massively change and the odds aren't stacked so heavily in the favor. Of course they suck when they're in the wrong ranks.
Yet the devs are trying to have their escape cake and eat it too by balancing Killer Vs Survivor as all the same despite that gulf where sometimes survivors have an advantage that's de facto cheating and sometimes they're playing in the designed isolation. What's balanced (or even unfair) in one set of circumstances could be totally game busting in the other. So solo survivor roles are even more disadvantaged even without the sort of information/communication crutch. Meanwhile killers tend to go all out on whoever because you don't know for sure whose SWF and who isn't.
C'est la vie.
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voice communication
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@IshinSolarc said:
A day ends in 00:00 of UTC, so the last day at midnight at UTC 00:00
What is "the last day" here though?
Does The Rift end ON October 7th or at the END of October 7th?
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@Ecstasy said:
Does anyone know what time exactly the Rift closes? It says October 7th but does that mean like 12:00 AM whatever timezone once it turns the 7th or what?
Anybodyies? :-(
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@KingFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1663425#Comment_1663425
They probably get all 4 gens done even if they were solo. Sounds like the average solo game. Not like people don't get right back on gens when they play Solo. Survivors don't tend to get off generators to mess around, and if those are the survivors you need to be able to win then maybe you're not as good as you think.
I mean what you basically said here is: "I would've stomped them at 2 or 3 gens if they hadn't gotten on gens."
You're hearing the minutia and not the message. What he's really saying is that ability to coordinate and communicate ######### dominates everything. You grossly underestimate the change in dynamics that even the most casual communication offers. You don't need to actually try to break the game over your knee to reap huge benefits in time gained and resource allocation.
I was literally just playing a solo survivor match where I was on the hook wishing I could just say "yo they didn't trap the hook" and shave at least 10 seconds off the crouch time alone there. That's a lot... I mean there are perks that don't give you near that much lead time, especially per interaction. Not to mention the difference "there IS a trap right there" makes, as something easily avoided that easily could snowball into a series of downed players. We're talking powers equivalent of any number of perks, even multiplied by ten, and just from those sorts of interactions.
The most casual "oh #########!" tells you someone is in a chase on the other side of the map before they've ever been hit---that could mean a good 30 second lead or more. The very fact you get to know where the killer is also means you get to advance to whatever objective that much faster too, literally sprinting in the open secure in the knowledge no one will see you or your tracks. It's can be the difference between a 0K and 4k just being able to say "hey I saw the NOED totem" as you're being dragged to the hook.
Each little interaction adds up, and this isn't even CLOSE to what TryHarding changes. Dismissing these differences as negligible is damn near certifiable.
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Does anyone know what time exactly the Rift closes? It says October 7th but does that mean like 12:00 AM whatever timezone once it turns the 7th or what?
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I think it will make things a hell of a lot better actually and players will actually start coming back instead of being run-off all the time by the toxic elements and extreme unbalance that voice communication exacerbates wildly.
I made this post awhile back that underlines exactly how FUBAR voice coms is and this game being FUBAR until its resolved https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1636983#Comment_1636983
And this one I'm just going to quote entirely because it's going to be relevant to arguments that haven't even come up yet.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1636990#Comment_1636990
From that thread:
II. The justifications used to excuse VC all fall apart on scrutiny.
"OH BUT SOME PLAYERS ARE JUST WEAK!" isn't an excuse. To measure change you hold the other factors constant. The relevant comparison is that any given match otherwise balanced under NORMAL circumstances is now inherently UNBALANCED with overwhelming adjustments. The fact you can still beat a SWF that you'd already have crushed anyway is immaterial. The fact any unbalanced matches exist according to the SKILL of those players doesn't validate the de-facto cheating a torrent of outside information breaks open under an umbrella of "if you (and, largely, as much as you) want" adjustments. For players, it only makes it even harder to tell where skill levels really begin or end. For developers, it makes it harder gauge actual factors and statistics they should be balancing around.
"OH BUT MOST ARE X-MAN TEAMS & BARELY TRYING!" isn't an excuse. That's just inline with what studies show about cheating anyway: people mostly only cheat "a little bit" for that edge. Something like "for the fun" helps excuse the advantage while they get to distance their standards from how much it distorts their performance compared to that match that would exist. It's negligible that only 50/75/100% of the other team are effectively cheating and how hard; the only material comparison is the game that would've existed WITHOUT THAT EDGE. That discretion is both the very problem while also the mechanism that lets players feel snug and safe in exploiting it. That choice is just as in-line with cheating as it exists everywhere; that's your CSGO player who's okay with aimbots, but thinks wall-hacks are too far.
"OH BUT IT'LL DESTORY THIS GAME!" isn't an excuse. It's not even true. You can't even begin to isolate what elements are solely due to being a bully simulator from all the game's other factors that pushed its popularity as it grow/changed over the years (ie, the reasons why some people keep playing DESPITE the incredibly toxic and destructive SWF experience). The big streaming stuff isn't exclusively death-squad communication sets over voice-coms... players only watch one of those four anyhow. The popular stuff isn't even just survivor-sided, if anything I image its the opposite w/r/t the bigger names. On top of that, voice-communication & SWF aren't even inherently inseparable. You can allow SWF, but make it clear where the lines exist & punish anyone dumb enough to uploading the evidence against themselves. And--EVEN IF they were inseparable--then that just means time to nut up and include VC as a given mechanic in the game normally & BALANCE AROUND IT PROPERLY. You cannot keep your escape cake and offer it up too.
"OH BUT YOU CAN'T ENFORCE IT!" isn't an excuse. That doesn't stop good developers from banning things like stream-snipping in their games when that's even less evidenced or enforceable. It's about setting a precedent of attitudes and behavior. Most people will at least attempt to float within that realms of acceptable conduct where SOME standards exist. Yet, this community is anything goes and paralyzed by developers who are--quite frankly--cowardly about either protecting their vision or adapting it to the other concessions they've made. It turns such an otherwise fun game (and brilliant idea) into a miserable slog.
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I made these posts awhile back that really sum up everything in my mind, and I'd quote them in here directly. but this damned forum won't let me post things beyond a certain length without mod approval, Or I'm posting them too quickly back to back? I don't know, it happens when I edit too. Drives me screwy.
They're back to back comments anyhow, but that second one there is the one that dispels the common counter arguments that people post as for why voice comms can't be resolved.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1636990#Comment_1636990
EDIT: Oh, okay neverminded the one I tried to make here quoting it shows up about 3 posts down now 😋
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1662869#Comment_1662869
I thought the devs do not consider comms cheating, and that SWF was always intended to be part of the game but it wasn't quite ready for launch.
I'll look around for quotes, but I bet a mod could find em much quicker...
They don't and that's the whole point. They very much should consider it cheating when it de facto destroys the game balance, or actually do something with regard to balance to change that.
The matter of SWF being planned or not isn't really relevant. Whether playing with friends was intended or not, they sure as hell didn't (and still don't) balance the game around voice-communication existing. The only other even remotely reasonable alternatives are to (A) suck it up and bend to the other concession they've made by actually implementing voice-communication in the normal gameplay, or (B) at least attempt some other means of adjusting the game to account for SWF by buffing killers/solo survivors, although that's easier said than done and liable to create new issues.
These are the only means they'll ever even hope to somewhat balance this game. Everything else they do is an exercise in futility when any given match that's actually balanced when the players have voice communication literally cannot be balanced if assuming the same circumstances but the players don't have voice communication. One can be balanced or the other, but never both. Not while every other variable remains the same.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
My eyes are bleeding from seeing all the “tHaNa WaS nErFeD!!” claims.
Has everybody forgotten that Thana is DESIGNED around encouraging/tricking survivors into healing more frequently?!
We need to go back to understand Nurse, and all 3 of her perks. As absurdly powerful as Blinks are, its indisputable that Nurse will have a much easier time hitting stationary targets with Blinks rather than moving targets.
Enter Stridor & A Nurses Calling. Stridor to better triangulate where a survivor is hiding behind obstructions, and A Nurses Calling for a ridiculously easy Blink target. And now for a way to greatly incentivise survivors to actually prioritise healing so that Nurse can set up those easier Blink targets. Thanatophobia. The global debuff was never meant to be oppressive enough that it’s purpose was to directly slow down gens. It was just meant to be enough of a nuisance to survivors that they heal to get rid of it. It’s through more regular healing that game stall for the killer is achieved through this perk, and shorter chases when used in conjunction with A Nurses Calling.
The problem with the devs having stubbornly stuck with this idea of Thana have a global debuff is that it backed them into a corner by having to be very conservative with the percentages. The higher that number gets, the less likely Thana is going to achieve its intended outcome: getting survivors healing, and the killer more frequently catching survivors out in a compromised position. Killers, you can’t have one perk have increased percentages to slow gens down longer AND keep survivors injured longer at no additional compromise, other than simply equipping this ONE perk and doing something you’re already going to be doing anyway: injuring survivors. That just goes to show you don’t care about balance at all. If you want to commit your strategy to keeping survivors injured in conjunction with Thana’s other debuffs, you need to compromise more perk slots to that with either Coulrophobia, Sloppy, or Forced Penance. Deal with it!
This recent change to Thana in regards to gen slow down is redundant. It doesn’t matter if it’s 5% per survivor, 10%, or 15%. Survivors are not meant to just be putting up with the debuff, except where they simply have no choice to because they’re not near teammates and cannot heal themselves. What DOES matter is that healing (where immediately available to injured survivors) will be way more attractive now that they’re aware Thana has no direct healing debuff. It’s your job as killer to CAPITALISE on this behaviour, and adjust your load out and strategy accordingly.
If your using Thana as a gen slow down perk, you’re playing the game wrong.
I'm way out of my depth here when it comes to the question of intent and certain mechanics doing the whoozas and the whatzas cause I'm just your average joe 6 hook. But I knows my logical deductions and I don't think your argument really holds up well.
Your entire position is a stack of cards resting on the assertion Thana is meant to do X, though you never really justify how you come to that conclusion. It's begging the question, and if it falls apart so does the rest of what you're saying.
If it's pure assumption, then it would seem even more logical to deduce that there's clearly a dual purpose where, as you've said, it (A) creates another downside to NOT healing (ie the gen speeds) as you've said, but also (B) prolongs the healing process in order to better triangulate and blink to that survivor.
The inherent perk synergy of Thana very much suggests to me that its about creating that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for survivors while balanced by being very situational for the killer where you'll rarely be getting those full reductions, the effects won't last that long, and the utility of the perk diminishes as you thin the heard.
But there's another wipeout argument left on the table here still: even IF you're correct that's the original intent, well... so what? Why is that even relevant, and what makes that superior to what you're claiming is an emergent (and wrong) way of utilizing the perk?
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Deciphered the bolo machete awhile back, but you're not gonna like it. All it said: be sure to drink your Ovaltine.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1662042#Comment_1662042
How could the devs achieve this though? Comms are almost entirely out of their control.
Honor system and punish people who testify against themselves by streaming/youtube etc.
Even just taking a stand to explicitly call it cheating and nothing else would have an incredibly impact on gameplay with people having to acknowledge that it's total bullshit and ruins this game.
You don't have to stop all of it to be effective. You just need to set some standards.
Even just knowing its against the rules will prevent many people from using it, or at least using it openly/intentionally/strategically, and the people who still do use it likely won't be as sweaty about it since they know it makes them trash instead of legit a-okay survivor playbook.
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I had a survivor go ballistic that I was trash for getting him with NOED despite the fact he only had full health thanks to Adrenaline triggering mid-chase, and the same exact hit would've brought him down normally anyhow...
For real.
I play just as much survivor so I know NOED can be a real pain in games, but by god I wouldn't change it for the world.
Sometimes, sometimes it's just pure majesty.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
It's never "okay" per say.
That being said, there are situations where I don't blame people. Like, you spawn in on Hawkins. It's Freddy with Corrupt, Undying, Ruin and Thana...with dual slowdown addons.
For me? That's a hard pass. I'll tank the 5 minute penalty. Knowing completely that it's punishable.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1662569#Comment_1662569
DBD is and always has been carried by streamers. BHVR isn't going to bite the hand that quite literally feeds them.
Thing about streamers is there ain't no union and there's always more of them trying to make it big.
Taking down a handful of big'uns only sends a message to the other ones to straighten up, while more compliant ones will rise to take place of the others and eventually amass the same following or bigger.
It's a symbiotic relationship where most all are just as reliant on DBD to figuratively feed them too. I don't watch any live streams, but I know some of the names thanks to other video content they've put out on the youtubes that I've tried to learn from and even subscribe to a few. But I sure don't give a ######### about those people beyond the content they produce that's already relevant to me. I imagine that's majorly true for most of the DBD players who follow DBD streamers too.
They matter collectively. Individually, they're as worthless as the rest of us plebs.
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I think the more interesting question than general acceptability is the official response: would/do they actually punish people who even flagrantly DC in front of their audience?
If not, well, I think that answers the other question more more honestly than any theoretical posturing.
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I think it's actually for the best though that when you're leveling whatever new character that you'll usually have to run them with suboptimal perks until they've whichever ones at max levels and specific ones they want to run. I think it results in a lot more build diversity out there.
But it's insanely bad when you're starting out and like you're playing a totally different game from everyone else then too. It's crazy how out of touch most all the advice for "new" players really is out there. Half of it is literally "oh well run this perk" and you're thinking "######### I only got 2 perk spots unlocked"
That said, the promotional codes and rewards from tomes have been a huge plus for now, and nowhere as bad as it used to be. Still could always use more points from all points of view. It's always getting harder for new players to catch up with the increasing number of characters they're playing catch-up on as well. Not to mention that snowball effect for all players where the more perks you unlock the harder it is to get X specific perk when you want it on a new character and you have to burn through even more bloodwebs to get there.
Every DLC you buy with real money should at least come with like 250K blood points to start you out.... And they should really increase the damn cap too considering how easily you can spend points. Even at level 50 it's not like you ever REALLY stop leveling your characters either.
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You can calculate it yourself since you'll know how many hours of gameplay a day are feasible for you.
You get 1 XP a second, so for the 800 XP needed you earn a fragment from every 13.33 minutes of gameplay.
But probably better to go with 15 minutes = fragment to account for pre/post game factors.
That's assuming there's basically no downtime between your matches to adjust / level-up / whatever. That extra time mostly accounts for match making... because even once you have all the players you will always wait at least 60 seconds despite all four other players hitting ready like 15 seconds in. That's just how it always goes. It's a universal constant.
With 10 fragment to a level, basically every 2.5 hours of playing nets you 1 level.
Might as well assume you'll crack all the challenges. You'll be playing a lot of games so that's actually not the hardest part, any game = progress whether the challenge goes up or not. So add up all the challenge fragments that are left to claim and divide that by ten to get an idea of just how many levels that would give you anyhow.
Subtract the challenge levels left to gain from your levels needed and multiply those levels by 2.5 to figure out how many hours you're gonna need in total of gameplay to get there.
So, that's
X LevelsTotal - Y ChallengeLevels = Z LevelNeeded
Z LevelsNeeded x 2.5 hr/level = N Hours of gameplay
where N = YOURE #########-ED
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Not a chance in hell.
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@jackal470 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656507#Comment_1656507
It sucked, as a F13 movie fan it was a disappointment imo.....a horror game that was NOT tense at all, more of a joke
So.... like all of the movies then?
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...I like the doctor because he laughs when he gets hit by a pallet.
(^_^)
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@SnakeSound222 said:
One reason why they haven’t changed it is likely because of Sony and Microsoft being REALLY strict about changing trophies/achievements. It has to at least be almost impossible for Sony/Microsoft to allow the change (I’m shocked the Skilled Huntress change got through on Xbox, maybe there are some DBD players on whatever team handles achievement changes). Merciless/Ruthless/Brutal Killer should just be used for the number of dead Survivors and the rank message should be something different like “Devout Disciple”. That way BHVR can change the Killer Adepts without having to deal with Sony and Microsoft.
I figure its probably more an issue about changing the content/meaning of an old achievement earned for players, so rather than actually changing the text/content of the trophy it'd probably be easier to set the activation requirements to just trigger on a four kill like it used to. Or that's my speculation anyhow.
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@Judicar said:
Here's a shocking revelation - why don't you just not attempt these at those ranks? I know, groundbreaking logic here.
I'm sorry if you're having a bad day.
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It really should just be a 4k again.Unlike a lot of people I actually like the emblem system and think it makes for better gameplay with its point distribution and ranking system, but one consequence of that changing what a merciless victory means also made these basic achievements a genuine pain to get. Especially compared to he survivor ones where its just 'survive" and you're good.
Small tangent, but the emblem system doesn't really gel well with tome challenges either on the killer end. Getting those irris natural is cool and all, but it's such a specific subset of circumstances that playing to best *guarantee* you get it tends to inspire a lot of gameplay habits (camping/tunneling) that people hate and disconnect over which robs you of the iridescent anyhow. =p Maybe keep them out of the tomes or at least anything X in one trial or Y specific iridescent emblems.
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Intent matters.
It's not exactly fair, but it's a far cry from making a willful decision to warp your resolution for an advantage. (This obviously excludes lag-switching and/or intentionally gimping your internet connection for some advantage where that intent does exist and qualify as cheating.)
Also, that's not to say that there's anything wrong with requiring a certain threshold speed all players must meet because otherwise the match ends up unfair and, more importantly.... janky as hell and obnoxious. You could make an argument we need a higher latency standard--it's just not a matter of player cheating, so don't muddy your position by making it about that.
Now if you want a real double-standard...
Well, that would be acknowledging how stretched resolution provides an unfair/unintended advantage that distorts the game's balance enough to reasonably label it cheating, yet twiddling your thumbs when it comes to voice-communication at the same time. Hell, not even ignoring, it's explicitly "all good man, not cheating" by declaration, and relegated to de facto cheating that we all just accept.
I've said it before, and will doubtlessly say again... any given match that's balanced when those players cannot communicate can NEVER be balanced still when those players can communicate also. Never. It is factually impossible when the game makes no adjustments for that monumental alteration of circumstances there. Balancing DBD at all is inherently impossible when both extremes are possible and it just keeps regarding them the same way.
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@noctis129 said:
Should just play how u want to play. Trolling in DBD is the highlight of the day and it's the thing that draws ppl to it.
It's a game between humans. And we know what annoys each other.
The best thing to do in DBD is to piss the other players off for ur own amusement.
Slugging, camping, tunnelling, is totally cool. I love it. There are perks to counter all of these.
If ur emotionally stable playing StarCraft, u will be just fine playing DBD. Annoying ur opponent and make his life miserable is one the great things u can do in a competitive game.
I'm not going to say I don't understand, and there's almost always some genuinely rough circumstance or imbalance in your life creating that need for an emotional outlet where you can flip the tables by making other people upset/suffer/agitated. But that's really not how things are for most of us. Definitely not how they should be. It's just a game.
Emotionally stability is being able to handle those people and their ways of injecting toxicity into day to day interactions whether its even intent or just their nature. Emotional instability does mean people who can't handle that sort of toxic environment without their own wellbeing suffering, but emotional instability also encompasses that subset of people who need to validate their own experiences by disrupting those of others.
The internet has really enabled a lot of anti-social tendencies to flourish in people by naturally providing such insular environments of reinforcement. And people easily conflate "that which is" with "that which should be" in those places. Yeah, if you look to actual competition between actual humans, you'll find those same toxic mentalities from time to time--and some people simply are that way--but the important distinction is that's not encouraged or accepted.
In fact, the most professional and competitive venues always have penalties (financial or otherwise) against that sort of toxicity and bad sportsmanship. There's strategic value to poise, composure, and trying to knock their other player off their game. But that's something done by excelling in performance and making it look easy--it's not your noseguard calling their quarterback racial slurs. No player starts banging on the table in the middle of a poker match to throw off the other player's concentration. You don't teabag someone after you pin them. Trolling isn't composure. It's just another means of bullying. And bullying is always fun as long as you're the bully.
"It's just a game" isn't the battlecry for why you should act like that; it's the point of reason behind why the real world looks down on that stuff.