Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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flashbang buff is only relevant buff. it is only 10% but it could amount to couple extra flashbang per game. It is too bad you can't stack blastmines on all generators, wiretaps and chemical traps like you can with flashbang.
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the problem is that you can only put 1 trap down. so yes requirement is 20% but you can't spam them on the map. they didn't buff that. player probably won't use it. They also missed repressed alliance in these changes.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771977#Comment_3771977
No, I explained what I mean. Reasonably short chases, not very much downtime searching for survivors, and a good sense for where most of the repair is happening so you're not chasing one survivor on the opposite side of the map to the other three.
If camping does do more than gen perks - which honestly I find questionable if the survivors don't play into it - that's an excellent reason to nerf camping like this. We don't want camping to be desirable, after all.
The game may have its imbalances still, but it's improved by leaps and bounds since I started playing about four years ago. At this point in the game, the killer needs no shortcuts at all. They don't need gen perks, they don't need tunnelling, they don't need camping. They just need a good understanding of the macro game and a coherent build.
As an aside, there's no punishing genrushing, if the survivors are bringing the tools to do that then they're just getting that much repair done. I'm not blind to toolboxes being unbalanced with a genrush build, but you don't beat that by camping, so we don't have to be concerned about that situation for this particular change.
At this point in the game, the killer needs no shortcuts at all.
right.. i don't agree.
As an aside, there's no punishing genrushing, if the survivors are bringing the tools to do that then they're just getting that much repair done. I'm not blind to toolboxes being unbalanced with a genrush build,
yes there is. it is called camping. typically when survivor rush generators, your left as killer with 3 gen with 1 guy on the hook.
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771977#Comment_3771977
by good at it, you mean killer has to play completely flawless with 0 mistakes and survivor can fail almost every single chase as quickly as possible while still just completing all generators anyway. The survivor can still easily hook-trade and all generator will be done.
If survivors are making that many mistakes then they're going to be dying unless the killer makes a grievous mistake or two.
The generator defence perk don't do enough towards spreading pressure. Camping does more then the gen perks. that is why player are opting to camp more because it is more efficient way to punish gen-rushing. This is also a way for killer to punish survivor misplays at chases in early stages of the game. The dev have this backwards. killer is punishing survivor. not survivor punishing killer. the survivor is the one failing chases.
That's cause the Killer needs to be spreading pressure by quickly and efficiently hunting survivors down. Players are opting to camp more because many are straight up refusing to learn how to play any other way.
The more imbalanced the base game is, the more killer will use cheesy shortcuts such as Tunneling and Camping.
Well this is just our opinion here but we don't think anything short of extremely buffing killers to the point of being broken will stop a majority from looking for cheesy shortcuts. We got a question: What all of the game is unbalanced to you?
That's cause the Killer needs to be spreading pressure by quickly and efficiently hunting survivors down. Players are opting to camp more because many are straight up refusing to learn how to play any other way.
No, it is because generator defence perks keep getting nerfed which is punishing the killer for spreading pressure. I explained this already. It like stocks.
You have Tunneling stocks, Slugging stocks, Camping stocks, and Leave hook pressure stocks. The generator nerf are pushing leave hook pressure stocks down and increasing Camping stocks up.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771869#Comment_3771869
Again, what you're describing there is incidental, not intentional. The devs wanted to weaken camping with the basekit Borrowed Time, and separately, wanted to incentivise chases by buffing all those numbers. This is observable, they say as much in the dev notes.
As to everything else, I think the issue here is that you're viewing gen perks as a necessity for spreading pressure, when the reality of the situation - at least after all the nerfs - is that it's the other way around. You need to be spreading pressure for gen defence perks to do all that much. If you aren't occupying multiple survivors at once and slowing down gen repair that way, the amount of extra time regression perks buy you isn't enough to overcome that, and it shouldn't be. The only exceptions to this concept are unbalanced cheese strategies like tunnelling and camping… hence those getting nerfed.
As an aside, you can win by going for aggressive chasing as long as you're actually good at it. So, that's short chases on top of knowing where survivors are and keeping them occupied. I'm not talking hypothetically here, either, I run very little slowdown and I don't camp or tunnel, but I win a respectable amount of my games. If I lose, it's almost always because I wasn't doing well enough in chase, not because you need to camp to overcome gen defence nerfs.
In general, I think a lot of killer players could do with remembering that gens are not their objective, survivors are. Spread your pressure across your objective, not your opponent's objective.
As an aside, you can win by going for aggressive chasing as long as you're actually good at it
by good at it, you mean killer has to play completely flawless with 0 mistakes and survivor can fail almost every single chase as quickly as possible while still just completing all generators anyway. The survivor can still easily hook-trade and all generator will be done.
You need to be spreading pressure for gen defence perks to do all that much.
The generator defence perk don't do enough towards spreading pressure. Camping does more then the gen perks. that is why player are opting to camp more because it is more efficient way to punish gen-rushing. This is also a way for killer to punish survivor misplays at chases in early stages of the game. The dev have this backwards. killer is punishing survivor. not survivor punishing killer. the survivor is the one failing chases.
The more imbalanced the base game is, the more killer will use cheesy shortcuts such as Tunneling and Camping.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771874#Comment_3771874
This is a very confused take.
It's never in the survivors' best interest to leave someone on hook. It's why instant unhooking and hook bombing exists, because survivors want to reduce the pressure from the hook as soon as possible.
Leaving someone on hook for the entire duration is just making the game a 1v3 while someone is in time out. I don't think I have to explain why a 1v3 situation is detrimental to survivors.
The only reason people wouldn't go for an unhook is if the killer is waiting at the hook and not pressuring the survivors doing gens (ie, camping). Which is exactly the scenario this change is designed to target.
It's never in the survivors' best interest to leave someone on hook. It's why instant unhooking and hook bombing exists, because survivors want to reduce the pressure from the hook as soon as possible.
what no. hook bombing is terrible teammate gameplay. instant aggressive unhooking is also poor play. the most ideal way to play survivor is to leave survivors on hook for like 50 seconds and than save survivor at very last 10 seconds of the hook. This way, you get maximum amount of generator pressure and killer gets lower amount of reward.
Instant aggressive unhooking has name for survivor. Survivor often called this hook farming. Your teammate is farming your hook stages and the killer is just tunneling because It is free hook stages. In fact, there is a killer entirely based around where he has a cage mechanic to send survivors into cage in order to bait survivors into instant cage unhooking so that he can tunnel out of the game. yes i am refer pyramid head. This gameplay loop is so basic that almost every experienced survivor player understands this to a dime. -
@jesterkind said:
How does that punish players who don't camp?
If anything, from my perspective, the effects it'll have on my gameplay are either neutral or outright positive.
because hook stages are more free. you have more time to leave people on hook. it is not like hook regression goes faster for killer leaving the hook. it stays the same.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771836#Comment_3771836
I mean, in 6.1.0 they also labelled the basekit Borrowed Time as a nerf to tunnelling and camping, which signals pretty clearly that they wanted to make camping weaker.
They'd then go on to actually weaken camping by implementing the anti-facecamp meter, further signalling that the devs don't want people to be camping. The fact that the lengthened gen timers incidentally made camping slightly stronger was an oversight, not an intention.
The devs actively encourage chases to spread your pressure, which is incidentally the stronger way of playing anyway. Even if you think camping did get stronger, there's no basis at all for claiming the devs intentionally made it stronger specifically to compensate for a lack of slowdown perks.
The fact that the lengthened gen timers incidentally made camping slightly stronger was an oversight, not an intention.
No, this is intentional. the longer gen times means that early game for killer is less volatile meaning that killer is less likely to lose 3 gens at very start of the game. this means that killer is capable of camping early on if he does well early on the chase. This forces survivor to attempt to play altruism around hooks and if they try gen-rush, the killer can forcibly regress hooks punishing gen-rushing.
The devs actively encourage chases to spread your pressure, which is incidentally the stronger way of playing anyway.
Wrong, they actively keep nerfing generator defence perks punishing killer for spreading pressure. Just look at all Scourge hook pain res nerfs, Pop goes weasel than some might even start talking about eruption, hex:ruin, dead man switch, grim embrace, etc. etc. they nerf all gen defence, the killer camp more, now they nerf camping. right? what. you nerf all the perk related to spreading pressure then complain that killer is camping because they're not getting reward for spreading pressure.
it is simple formula, buff gen defence →killer is more rewarding for spreading pressure. Nerf gen defence → killer camps more.
Ideally, the killer should not spending entire load out of gen defence perk so that they can go for aggressive chasing and win but that does not seem to be in the cards. Instead, nerfing camping.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771786#Comment_3771786
What are you referring to when you say that they decided to make camping more effective?
The last time they did buffs to offset gen perk nerfs to my recollection was 6.1.0, and all those buffs were aimed at making chasing more effective. I can't think of any patch where the devs either said outright they wanted to make camping more effective, or even just implied it with their actions. What am I missing here?
chasing didn't do anything. the main key line in 6.1.0 was this line: "Many players feel like generators are powered too quickly without these perks, so we knew we needed to look at generators before making any perks changes. SLOWDOWN PERKS SHOULD BE AN OPTION, BUT NOT THE ONLY OPTION TO STAY COMPETITIVE."
So how did they do that to make slowdown an option but not only option to stay competitive. They buffed camping. that is how. a killer that cannot defend generators will camp more and by doing that, he'll slowdown the game by regressing hooks.
There is little bit of irony in last sentence because a killer that is relying less of passive slowdown mechanics is interacting less with survivor. I know last sentence suggests that you are suppose interact more but the effect is quite opposite. The less defence you bring, the less time you have as killer to interact with the survivor. This makes sense because the game ends faster.
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@jesterkind said:
Is it really required to make sure there's buffs to both sides' perks in every single patch? I think it's okay for some patches to focus more on the specific things the devs had ideas for/are already finished. There's always next patch, after all.
Besides, on top of the three killer buffs looking pretty juicy and the Midwich + scratch marks changes looking interesting, I'd argue that survivors getting a suite of buffs to perks that are more active and engaging to play against (for the most part, anyway) is to the killer's benefit too. More variety is good, and more meme-y perks are fun to face, too.
i think issue with this patch is hook stage from 60→70 seconds. Your currently punishing killer as killer for spreading hooks because you get almost no generator regress rewards for playing actively at base-kit and now they want punish killers for camping hooks and allowing survivor to gen-rush for free? How is it surprising that killer is camping hooks when regressing hook is more rewarding than fishing chases to down survivors?
While they are buffing killer, after killer, after killer in regards chasing, like doctor, dredge, clown, etc, etc., the issue still remains that generator are too oppressive when killer spreads hooks. that is why there is bunch of camping going on and not a lot of offensive aggressive gameplay. in fact, the killer that are more aggressive tends to be the killer that run 4 defence perks because…. they compromising their entire perk loadout so that they can play more offensively. the issue is that gen defence perks keep getting nerfed and nerfed. as a result, more people opt to camp because they don't want to run gen defence perks and they don't see much benefit in them because… they're constantly weaker than previous iteration. Playing offensively is constantly getting nerfed and nerfed and playing defensively stayed the same until now where your also getting punished for playing defensively. it makes no sense. just a lose/lose.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Should have been implemented alongside the increase of Gentime.
If someone does not (proxy)camp a lot, they wont see a difference. Someone who relied on camping a lot will have a worse time. Which is a good thing.
my question is, where is generator defence perk buffs in this patch? Like whole reason why generator defence perk were nerfed was to make killer less reliant on generator defence perks. The way they did that is by making camp more effective. Now they're nerfing camping, so where is generator defence perks at?
Increases hook stage - > survivor can gen-rush more by leaving survivors longer on hooks but the killer don't have same gen perks they had prior to said change. My thought on this change is gen-rushing is stronger and killer got all their perk nerfed.
so where is all base-kit generator regress stuff at or what perks are killers suppose to use that have high impact like before?
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reduced Volume of the Dredge's sound effects to make it harder to detect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! best change ever.
Nightfall should be scary. It is meant to be an ultimate stealth ability. it will finally be one without the constant free sound wall-hacks.
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@WashYourHands said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771250#Comment_3771250
Xeno has a 0.2s tail attack according to wiki. You don't think that's crazy?
Deathslinger is "not very effective" because he's like Legion; can get Survivors into Deep Wound easily, but struggles to get downs because they can use the environment to break free.
Why are Demo, Nemi, and PH's attacks not strong? Please explain. My proposed change may not be so negative; can't judge without testing.
Xeno has a 0.2s tail attack according to wiki. You don't think that's crazy?
um no?
Deathslinger is "not very effective" because he's like Legion; can get Survivors into Deep Wound easily, but struggles to get downs because they can use the environment to break free.
I don't think i have ever had this problem at all. when i get the hit, I get the hit. i don't think anyone ever breaks my chain because i know when the shot is going connect is going lead to an m1 hit. Slinger is not interesting to play because long range, high risk shots are not rewarding. what is the point of being ranged killer if your only good when your within 10 meter range? strong loopers react to his gun shot making the gun unsatisfying to use. it is like your suppose chase potato survivors in chase.
Why are Demo, Nemi, and PH's attacks not strong? Please explain. My proposed change may not be so negative; can't judge without testing.
PH shockwave has travel time, so max distance shots are possible simple to react on. Most Pyramid head players tend to only zone with his ability by hitting you when you crossing the little gap between pallet spawn. in the corner of the map, people spam his ability because they got unlimited attempts to hit you. either way his 1vs1 chase is not very time efficient.
Nemesis whip doesn't work across walls. you can crouch his whip and his whip won't hit anyone over objects. All nemesis ever gets his pallet breaks and his pallet break are slow. You just get to another pallet.
Demogorgon's is full charge time is 1 second. You can loop in a way where demogorgon is unable gets an angle to use his ability. all he gets is pallet breaks but his pallet breaks are so slow that you just get to another pallet.
I don't get the point of nemesis whip or shred. they don't amount to anything. you might as well play singlurarity that has enduring spirit fury, Leatherface who shreds pallets faster or Billy. like @Iron_Cutlass suggests, all the killer are mediocre.
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Just make obsession affected by the perk. at least your actually building up strength vs entire team. hopefully it gets buffed.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771303#Comment_3771303
i find shock wave too be relatively straightforward to react on at a distance.
Have you ever played against PH who can actually flick? That's completely different experience...
They did release a statistic that zombies barely hit
Not really surprising, when even if they attack it usually miss.
Most hits are when survivors do it on purpose as kinda free Sprint Burst, when they were injured by M1. That definitely feels bad for Nemesis.
Have you ever played against PH who can actually flick? That's completely different experience...
Most of them pyramid head don't really know what they're doing. I think hardest pyramid head to play against are those that run green duration add-on and follow you around with the sword. those are pretty tough to loop. it just feels like your playing against this weird zoning gameplay.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771276#Comment_3771276
outside of chase, you cannot tell she is charging it and when your inside the chase, you cannot react to her releasing the blink
Well, isn't this same for Huntress, or Deathslinger?
If you don't have LoS while I charge it, then you kinda need to guess what I'll do even in chase.
PH is very loud, but you have to fully guess where I am going to launch it, if you don't have LoS.
But hey for most of those killers you need straight tile for this to work. Nurse can do it anywhere.
I think it's easy to react with DH at least against it, but her reach makes dodging with movement more difficult.
Nemesis vaccines are also very strange.
I would definitely like to see some change for infection to have a purpose. It's simply hindrance for Nemesis right now, which doesn't really make sense.
Well, isn't this same for Huntress, or Deathslinger?
no. I can tell when the shot is released and approx where it is being fired. Makes deathslinger easy killer to loop. Huntress is a bit harder i'd say because side-step slinger is like 100% counter-play but with huntress, you can often run into hatchets.
PH is very loud, but you have to fully guess where I am going to launch it, if you don't have LoS.
i find shock wave too be relatively straightforward to react on at a distance. I once had a pyramid head that missed like 10 times or more trying hit a shockwave. he got the hit eventually but i found it funny on Gideon's Meat packing plant.
I would definitely like to see some change for infection to have a purpose. It's simply hindrance for Nemesis right now, which doesn't really make sense.
Yeah I don't really know what up with that tier and infection system. They did release a statistic that zombies barely hit anyone. maybe that means they'll buff nemesis and make the purple zombie speed and yellow detection add-on base-kit. i don't think zombies legit hit anyone except for survivor that purposely run into zombies so they can get free sprint burst to shift-w.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771250#Comment_3771250
I wouldn't really count Nurse Blink.
That's basically on level of Huntress's hatchet. You can see her charge it, you can hear her charge it, you can see where she is aiming (unless killer is changing it in last moment).
You can easily tell it's about to happen. Teleport itself is also not even close between fastest "projectiles".
Not sure how to count Xeno, he is basically in charging stance when he is crawling. You know he can use it and you can often predict when he will use it.
Thing is if Xeno had some long animation for his tail attack, then turrets should be removed. There is no point in counterplay when it becomes an average power, right?
But yeah, I guess this one could count as impossible to react, but missing hurts a lot now...
outside of chase, you cannot tell she is charging it and when your inside the chase, you cannot react to her releasing the blink, there is no location or Ui that says nurse is blinking here. sometimes, it is hard to dead hard a nurse. Xeno tail is also tricky to dead hard. very fast attack. I have reaction to dead hard both attacks but i am sure some survivor fail it if i find it tricky.
Thing is if Xeno had some long animation for his tail attack, then turrets should be removed. There is no point in counterplay when it becomes an average power, right?
I honestly don't know why turret exist. i'd be fine playing vs xeno with no turrets. to me, they just look like killer bully material.
Nemesis vaccines are also very strange. i don't know why those vaccine exist either. again they only hurt killer viability. you'd think that an item as powerful as vaccines would be on a strong killer on like pre-nerfed blight, pre-nerfed spirit, Nurse, something incredible strong. instead the drawback is on some average m2 killer.
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@VomitMommy said:
When you want to talk about game sense, then start using your own and simply predict.
For all of them you can quite easily tell, when they will use their attack.
You can react to everything in DBD after Deathslinger was nerfed.
Nerfing special attacks to force more killers into M1 sounds incredibly boring to me.
there is one single attack that remains impossible to react. Two if we count a mobility skill, that one being nurse's blinks. The other one is Xeno's tail.
Xeno's tail strike is only remaining impossible to react killer power. it doesn't need nerf. in truth, it needs buffs like add-on to increase radius or reduce successful cooldown. Unfortunately they won't buff it. if they do, they'll probably nerf his tail in process making him less fun to play.
Deathslinger still awaits his redemption. they gave him a lot of changes but nothing really has return the fun factor for him. He is also not very effective either.
demo, nemesis and pyramid head's attack are not strong. none of them need negative changes. if anything, Demogorgon and Nemesis should break pallets faster. they're kinda weak killers at least compared to current billy.
Demo might get something for his portals, at least reddit ama had a question regarding buffing demo's portals. I suppose we'll see when that buff shows up.
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bloody coil is amazing. imagine if demogorgon or freddy had add-on that give you injuries passively for using clock or cleansing a portal. trapper may be a bad killer at base-kit but his iri add-on are top-tier.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771213#Comment_3771213
We have bigger changes planned for her next year. That implies a rework in my opinion. I can't imagine what else they would be implying.
i wouldn't read too much into it. until you see word update or rework in the post, it is likely wish-list change.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771115#Comment_3771115
I don’t believe this is entirely true. The devs also said they were not happy with where she is currently and have plans to rework her early next year.
it is true. says so right in reddit AMA.
there is no where in the post that it says that they're reworking her. they only said that they are not happy with skull merchant's disconnect ratio, a directly reply to question.
Freddy is only confirmed rework while Myer is on radar but in some distant future.
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@Luigifan64 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770749#Comment_3770749
I disagree with this partially, it should remove the injured requirement *or* the random skillcheck screen location, while keeping the 10% more skillcheck rate & 50% reduction to missed penalties.
I do think the OP's change, while complicated, is the best balance of these two ideas, and fits into the whole "Deadline" lore part of the perk perfectly. I'd honestly rather have that over either of my suggested changes and it would make the perk more useful other than just the "use with Autodidact" perk.i think missed skill-checks should be a different perk. perhaps go to technician or corrective action. nobody uses those two perks so there might be more of reason to go to those perks for those missing skill-checks.
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there is been no confirm of any rework. the only thing reddit said about her is that they are not happy with survivors disconnecting vs her however no changes are planned for her.
in previous AMA, they also said that they cannot do anything in regards to disconnects. player that wish to disconnect will disconnect in their personal reason.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
It’s kind of sad that the only good part of the DLC is Quentin, the guy that no one really knew before DBD.
The review bombing is honestly what led to a lot of Freddy’s issues. He was a completely unique killer and rather than learn to play against him people decided he was OP and review bombed the game. So BHVR decided to nerf him (probably because the game was still new and they had never had a massive review bomb before). However rather than fix their mistake, BHVT doubled down and decided to rework him and never even try buffing him first.
If Freddy released today I think everything would’ve gone differently (or maybe not since you could argue that the way they treated Freddy caused them to actually improve the way they balance the game)Freddy was a unique killer because his innate ability to wall-hack survivors across the map. People still would have complained if he was released today. What is my evidence? Weave Attunement. Weave attunement is very close to old freddy power. the ability to wall-hack survivors across the map. With current freddy, when they reworked him, he lost his most unique identity compare other killers. With inevitable upcoming rework to freddy, they need craft new identity for freddy as his previous two identities of being -action speed penalty and wall-hack killer are erased.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770554#Comment_3770554
If Nurse decides to just go solo, that mean her teammate is going solo too. That isn’t good for the killer team.
And this whole thing about “Nurse doesn’t care about loop design” is misleading. Nurse cares about line of sight blockers, more than any other killer in the game. Her mobility is also really garbage if she’s stuck floating around trying to figure out where to blink, or if she is making short or mid distance blinks that don’t end in a hit.
The biggest issue with Nurse in 2v8 is that many survivors don’t seem to be aware that the game alerts them if they are revealed… and if they are revealed, and they hear Nurse charging a blink, they should assume Nurse might be going after them, and should be moving unpredictably.
But when I see a Nurse streamer, look at a revealed survivor hiding behind something, and the survivor doesn’t move at all and gets hit with a blink attack… that doesn’t mean Nurse is overpowered. It means the survivors don’t really understand the game mode mechanics.
If Nurse decides to just go solo, that mean her teammate is going solo too. That isn’t good for the killer team.
what is bad for killer team? If two killer individual win chases, they're more time efficient than if they down 1 survivor. Of course, this implies that your actually able to win chases and nurse is definitely able to win the chases solo.
Nurse synergies with all killers except trapper. Trapper is just really bad in this mode. it is not impractical for trapper to defend 6 gens and he has no vantage points to camp. like there is no hooks or anything to really coral survivors into trapped area. furthermore, scout existing as a class for trapper is terrible. Like you'll just being wall-hacked 24/7 on every trap placement. It is not exactly easy to down survivor with +30 pallets and strong setups like…. triple pallet into T-L wall windows. ok that is enough ranting about trapper.
Wraith + Nurse is strong because Wraith doesn't need chase people in this mode. He can hit & run. Find people out of position, injure them, leave them. injure them, leave them. As wraith injures people, Nurse is able to find chases with survivor that are injured. Injured+Nurse chase = Exposed nurse. Do we need explain how Nurse+Exposed = winning strategy?
Huntress+Nurse is lone gunner gameplay. Huntress is great at the chase. She doesn't need any help at chasing. Huntress downs people. Nurse should not need help downing survivors. Since both killer are always split up, they're always most efficient at applying pressure. Nurse in her element.
Billy+Nurse: Nurse needs win chases vs healthy survivors and put them in cages. When survivors go to cages, they are injured. Billy just needs find people that are injured preferably just as they caged. Survivor are injured = exposed. If billy is always chasing survivors that are injured, he doesn't need exposed. billy needs to be good at curving/1vs1 when you find injured survivors. obviously, you as billy rely on nurse to be good. if nurse is bad at downing people, than billy has no injured survivors to chase. For him, it is not worth it to be chasing healthy survivors. He wants injured people so he doesn't need land his chainsaw curve twice.
The biggest issue with Nurse in 2v8 is that many survivors don’t seem to be aware that the game alerts them if they are revealed… and if they are revealed, and they hear Nurse charging a blink, they should assume Nurse might be going after them, and should be moving unpredictably.
But when I see a Nurse streamer, look at a revealed survivor hiding behind something, and the survivor doesn’t move at all and gets hit with a blink attack… that doesn’t mean Nurse is overpowered. It means the survivors don’t really understand the game mode mechanics.
killer queues fairely long and there is not enough survivors playing, so it seems. so you just get survivors with all different skill-levels… lots of which.are not playing survivor… very well.
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i think they should just remove the injured →healthy requirement and remove the -50% failed skill-check regression.
This does two things.
- It makes autodidact+deadline a reliable healing combo
- The perk will be granted more consistent value across generator progression throughout entire match.
I like using this perk for generator progression but the inconsistency makes a little difficult to get value out of it in some games.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770174#Comment_3770174
I am not sure how you go about fixing poor lethality killers.
Good start is to read my post, where I suggested how to fix Doctor's poor lethality.
her stealth went from garbage to only useful with add-on.
I mean, Combat Straps is nice to have, but I started to use her stealth more often and it's way better than before. Still can see buffs, but I don't feel like I need to bring addon for this.
Perhaps revert ultimate weapon would improve pig's ability to mori survivors.
I think many players mistakenly think that "second way to kill with your power" should be consistent, when it's obviously shouldn't. Pig's and Onryo's powers designed that way, that they force survivor to do something to remove danger to be killed and only actually kill if survivor continue to ignore it. So there is nothing to improve, even if I agree it's a fun way to kill survivors. And super unfun for survivors, if it become somehow consistent.
Doctor already outplays loops very well. He doesn't snowball very well. In some ways, i don't think he is suppose snowball very well but rather be slowdown killer that focuses on making survivors miss skill-checks which slow generators down. He is just ineffective at that role.
I mean, Combat Straps is nice to have, but I started to use her stealth more often and it's way better than before. Still can see buffs, but I don't feel like I need to bring addon for this.
Combat straps is faster crouching. I am talking about her movement speed when in stealth is still slow.
I think many players mistakenly think that "second way to kill with your power" should be consistent, when it's obviously shouldn't. Pig's and Onryo's powers designed that way, that they force survivor to do something to remove danger to be killed and only actually kill if survivor continue to ignore it. So there is nothing to improve, even if I agree it's a fun way to kill survivors. And super unfun for survivors, if it become somehow consistent.
I disagree especially in regards Onryo. her ability to instant kill should absolutely be consistent. As for Pig, I don't think her mori power is fairely designed because i do not think survivor has enough counter-play to reducing effectiveness of traps. At same time, her current mori iteration is easiest way to buff pig's power-level.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770130#Comment_3770130
Slugging excessively can still be a major issue. There are a lot of inexperienced players in lobbies at the moment (good luck getting an 8 stack lmao).
It is 100% possible. I have seen it happen. I am not a bad player by any means. It dragged the match out for an eternity but they eventually got everybody down and then bled them out.
Slugging so hard people bleed out in this mode should not be a thing. With the whole cage mechanic, and the fact that pallet/flashlight saves are basically impossible in this mode, then there really isn't a reason to not add a self-pickup mechanic.
The whole reason basekit unbreakable was a bad idea in 1v4 was that there are instances where picking up a Survivor are not possible for a period of time. This is not the case in 2v8.
It's not really a common thing to see, but the cases where it does happen are so obnoxious that I think it warrants a change.
whole reason why it is so dragged out is because it takes 4 minutes to bleed out. it is long time. so while it has benefits, it also has one large negative.
The whole reason basekit unbreakable was a bad idea in 1v4 was that there are instances where picking up a Survivor are not possible for a period of time. This is not the case in 2v8.
Or maybe because it prevented killer from making any comebacks+allowed survivors to aggressively bodyblock for dead hook people with fresh hook players? Not saying unbreakable doesn't have this problem but at least problem isn't base-kit.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770504#Comment_3770504
Nurse isn’t the best killer in the game, for the vast majority of the player base. This is why having tier lists based off of the top 0.00001% of players , is dangerous and misleading to this game.
This is why there should be tier lists for the various MMR brackets, so people can show that at most of the MMR levels, Nurse isn’t anywhere close to overperforming at all.
Nurse didn’t receive the “strongest buffs”, because the much larger 2v8 maps, are a giant nerf to Nurse. And the “buffs” given to Nurse for 2v8, don’t even properly compensate her for the much larger maps.
It’s very sad that so few people understand how map changes can be buffs or nerfs for certain killers. It’s like when the maps changed to have way less low-walled loops, and have much more high-walled clutter… it was a huge nerf to Huntress, which is why she was later buffed. But a bunch of people complained, because they didn’t understand at all why she was buffed.
have you seen some of 2vs8 loop design in the game? Some of setup are so strong for survivor that you can loop killer for like multiple gens… in a 1vs1.
an advantage that nurse has over other killers is that she doesn't care about loop design in 2vs8. She doesn't need to stick with other killers to be relevant. She is just be a lone-gunner killer that consistently downs people.
@Xernoton said:
It swings wildly depending on the map, combination of killers, SWFs and KWFs (it's gonna take a while to get used to this acronym) as well as the survivor classes. It can really go either way.
I'd say, that both sides have some things that are overpowered. For example Nurse. Why did she have to be the killer to receive the most buffs? She is the strongest killer in the game anyway. There isn't much point in trying to delay her, when her lunge is that long and she can make up for any mistakes she made anyway. And 3 blinks only make this more ridiculous.
On the other hand, survivors have the scout class, that can reveal both killers almost constantly. I had a match against a Huntress and Trapper duo and we all saw them for the entire game. Needless to say, they didn't stand a chance. The escapist class is just as strong against everyone but Nurse. If a Trapper is chasing after you and you get that SB, they will almost guaranteed have to give up on that chase.
So both sides are busted and 2v8 is both balanced and unbalanced. In other words; it's pure chaos.
escapist is really strong even vs nurse. the sprint burst has 20 second cooldown and allows survivor to just pre-run constantly. if a survivor in chase, you can stay out of radius of scout and as soon you enter radius as nurse is blinking, you can sprint burst mid-chase.
I'd say game mode is relatively balanced. Maybe it leans a little bit more into survivor if all 8 survivor are really good but with current matchmaking and huge bloodpoint incentives, you are getting very random teammates…. lots of which not experienced. as a result, it may look like killer is stronger. the experience of survivor likely plays biggest role at the moment. killer can chase weak links in 2vs8 mode and ignore the strong-links. when everyone is strong link, the game probably more skewed towards survivor.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
This may be one of the many reasons why they have made this a temporary mode. Perhaps they want to see the impact of how this affects the regular mode to start with, rather than just put it in permanently, then discover a problem afterwards.
they have already seen impact of other modes like chaos shuffle. that is already tried and tested. maybe they could only allow certain amount of lobbies for this mode? i am not sure.
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Singularity is weaker. lost -2% haste and less duration on overclock. Easier to play for Console players? Not sure.
Knight is harder to play and stronger. Only suffers from cooldown's.
@ReverseVelocity said:
Both reworks are very good overall.
I want to see cooldown improvements for Knight, though, then he's basically perfect.
agree.
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@dovakiinjoss12345 said:
I agree. I love how it seems like MMR is non existent. I'm getting really skilled players to beginner players and it's a lot of fun. Just some good casual "fun" matches. I hope they keep 2v8 and I hope they maybe apply some of these game basics to the original matchmaking. The 1v4 can get really boring and sweaty.
MMR does not exist because of 400%+ BP bonus for survivor. there is lack of survivor players to have MMR. as a result, it just puts all survivors onto one team regardless of how good they are. the queues need to be more even. I imagine it will happen over-time.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770185#Comment_3770185
We're not sure whether to be jealous or not as most of our nemis are either good or [insert basic insult] doing the usual 4 gen stall and tunnel build. We're still in disagreement here as equally skilled would mean you'd get as often a chance to m1 as whip assuming nemi has working programming. And even that would still be 3 hits to 2 gens done at worst which is typical for most killers. Not taking into account of what happens during the chase either such as whip hit and leave, whip chase into others whip others back on first, etc. Admittedly maps also factor into times and we've realized we've neglected that as we're typing but thats a side tangent of our sleep addled brains.
i think opposite. equally skilled means that your m1 is nearly useless and you only get power hits because survivor makes little to no mistakes at loops/have strong map knowledge. when your getting m1 hits a lot, it is because your opponent is significantly worse than you as killer in the chase. when this is not the case, it is because loop is unsafe/fair for killer to mindgame or the map is giant dead-zone where everything is already broken. At that point, you don't really need your ability….
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think he's getting picked any more all of a sudden.
Sometimes I just get like 3 Freddy players in the span of a day and then absolutely none for a week straight. Maybe it's just a Freddy day for you.
He is next killer to get reworked. So maybe people are playing him because he is getting reworked?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770165#Comment_3770165
At that point thats a player problem…we're nowhere near the best (especially since we've become rusty) but we can still get hits in via whip and fist (if your going for whip only there might be the problem) fast enough that we've gotten more than that for 3 gens in normal matches. Someone whos better than us will be flaying survivors (or enough pallets to fill the meat plant) with his whip.
i am saying vs equally skilled survivor that seldom gets hit by m1 and only gets hit by whip, 3 hits for first chase is 3 gens done. subsequent uses of vaccine means that you can lose all 5 gens by the time vaccines are depleted vs efficient team.
When i play soloq, most of my games vs nemesis is nemesis lose 3 gens before vaccines are depleted at min. sometimes it is 4 gens. it depends on how good my soloq team is. the amount of extra exhaustion effect and distance these vaccines give is literally stronger then any anti-tunnel perk that survivors have. it beats decisive strike and beats dead hard. only old dead hard that could be used infinity amount of times was superior.
To this day, I still question whether his Vaccines or Xeno turret is worse drawback. from what I see, Xeno turrets are better for weaker survivor players because their repetitive and consistent value holds more average weight. Nemesis Vaccines scale with survivor skill-level. at low-level to medium levels, a second chance is not as valuable because player make so many mistakes in chase that killer can punch through all second chances with minimal generator loss. At higher levels of play, nemesis vaccine is complete crushing blow because each second chance is min-maxed so well with time efficiency on generators that little no hope to coming back as nemesis when it is used properly.
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they did help in making killer less reliant but they didn't solve issue to why those killer are weak.
→ The real problem with Doctor is that his Madness passive is garbage.
→ You get no detection from it. 1 second illusion base-kit is very bad
→ Skill-checks in madness are too easy
→ Doctor lacks any catch-up towards health-states/healing. Maybe they should make it that you get no sprint burst if your in tier 3 madness. I am not sure how you go about fixing poor lethality killers.
————
Pig Her dash went from garbage to only useful with add-on's.
her stealth went from garbage to only useful with add-on.
John Medical file needs to be base-kit.
Workshop Grease needs to be base-kit.
Her traps used to mori consistently before with pre-nerfed ultimate weapon. Perhaps revert ultimate weapon would improve pig's ability to mori survivors.
——Hag nothing changed. They made her range and setting speed add-on base-kit making less add-on reliant but her issue is that her power is not good enough to be 4.4 m/s. She needs to be 4.6 m/s. It is not versatile enough power to be lower than that. Buffed but did not fix issue. -
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770117#Comment_3770117
Assuming we're understanding what you said correctly, yes its a hard start for a nemi but he also gots help for infecting and for a decent power trade off so we find it fair enough.
losing 3 gens for 1 chase is terrible. it doesn't matter that you get a power boost. when you have 2 hooks and survivor have 4 gens done because of your power, it is not good.
to put into perceptive, His vaccine is like stacking dead hard in the first chase. in theory, you can have health-state, a vaccine and dead hard in 2nd chase. you almost lose to just shift-w…… for how many stacking exhaustion speed boosts that is.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Because his whip can break pallets extremely quick at a distance and still move and look around, he can hit and injure infected survivors over many things (including aforementioned pallets) at a distance, makes you vulnerable to zombies, and can be dragged. All with a relatively short wind up and cd making it less punishing to miss.
Bubba is punished if he hits anything other than a pallet or survivers via tantrum and technically needs to recharge tokens for maximum run distance, which doesn't go past obstacles bar point blank windows. Demo goes in a straight line, depending on where you miss it can be little to heavily punished, and he also doesn't hit over objects. Xeno can be taken out of his power while PH has a decent CD on using his power meaning he can't afford to miss or risks wasting tons of time. None of these ones have help as well.
We feel it's perfectly fine that survivors need infected first before he can hurt them with the whip. Especially since it's not infinite, survivors only have 4/3 vaccines.
4 vaccines +4 base is 8 extra hits. that's atrocious early game for nemesis.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769707#Comment_3769707
wouldn’t hooking them also group survivors up and allow you to capitalize off altruism? It’s the typical excuse of playing dirty but masking it as “a tactic”.
there is no hooking. you only send survivor to cage. Being near a cage teleport survivor. survivor that begin rescue animation are invulnerable and any survivor rescued from cage gains endurance. Also the cages do not have any aura attached to them.
with slugging
→ Survivors do not teleport when killer is near them
→ Survivors that is revived from dying state to injured state does not gain endurance.
→ Killer knows where survivor is located.
→ Killers can damage survivors as they are being healed from dying state, often allowing a trade.
slugging is only way to camp/play defensive in that 2vs8 mode. I cannot say for certain for how viable the gameplay is.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769552#Comment_3769552
It won't change with this iteration of the game mode, unfortunately. Understandably, the only real change in this mode is the 2 in the 2v8, which is both why people have asked for it for years and what the devs focused on.
For the 8, the gameplay is really too watered down and there's not enough variation from the regular 1v4 mode. Not that the classes aren't attempting to do that, because they tried, but it's a core gameplay issue:
Survivors in this mode are literally just fodder. Gens are largely the same, there's no alternative objective or anything, so staring at a progress bar is still the biggest part of the gameplay. Interacting with the killer is nearly deleted, though. Chases are nearly instant, and since it's designed for survivors to lose the 1v1 chase, there's no chance 2v1. And with cages, there's no lurking for altruism either.
So survivors get essentially more time to try to have a "balanced" game: rescuing, a bit of gens, etc. But BP gains at 400% aren't even cutting it, because base BP is so incredibly ######### it doesn't matter.
I won't deny that the mode, in theory, is popular. Or, at least people desperately want it to be good. But the devs will need to spend the next iteration implementing ways that it'll be engaging for the other 80% of players who they need to make this functional.
they should considering adding survivor perks instead of classes. survivor only get variety in perks and that is gone in this mode.
Survivors in this mode are literally just fodder. Gens are largely the same, there's no alternative objective or anything, so staring at a progress bar is still the biggest part of the gameplay. Interacting with the killer is nearly deleted, though. Chases are nearly instant, and since it's designed for survivors to lose the 1v1 chase, there's no chance 2v1. And with cages, there's no lurking for altruism either.
I agree. i am not sure how many survivor play the game for 1vs1 chase but if that number is high than that is one more reason for queue problems. the mode in general directly contradicts the 1vs1 skill elements of dbd. I am not going say that there are no 1vs1's for survivor in 2vs8 mode but the ability to "carry" teams in this mode is close to 0 for survivor.
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@bleep275 said:
yeah it’s weird that people slug in this. It’s not like they have to pick em up and worry about flashlights and sabo squads. I’ve only been slugged twice now. Both by a huntress (go figure). But one time I was able to get myself up on my own and escape. Best believe I tbagged at the gate till the very last second for slugging.
this mode would also be a good testing ground to see what anti-slugging tools are best so they can move it to 1v4 where if you’re not camped or tunneled, you’re sluggedbecause slugging people allows killer to group survivors up. It allows killer to capitalize off altruism, something that is almost non-existent in cage system.
When hag gets added, you'll see more slugging because… hag relies on altruism to be good. trapper basement, it is all about around altruism. slugging is kinda killer ticket to capitalize off altruism.
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i think they should remove the 3% haste on escapist and add self-care to escapist. give medic the 3% haste when healthy and injured. this would allow medic to move efficiently and go to player to heal them. it would also make medic harder to take out.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I’m saying that if only 5 killers are allowed to be in 2v8, then BHVR should be picking 5 "move around the map" killers, so that both killers can have interactive experiences with each other.
Yes, I'm saying Trapper shouldn't have been one of the 5 killers in 2v8. I don't care if he was one of the original killers, because "camp an area" killers don't belong in 2v8. For reals, Doctor should have been in 2v8 instead of Trapper, so that we could have 5 killers that could be easily adapted to this mode.
it is not that only 5 killer are allowed, it is that they couldn't code more killer to be added into the mode. ideally, they would want to get entire cast to play this mode but there is only so much time add playable killers. even at 5 killer, the mode is fairely impressive.
I also like trapper is in the mode because he showcases a different play-style in the mode and potentially showcases balance issues with punishing "camping", "Slugging" and "anti 3 gen" mechanics.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760769#Comment_3760769
It's hard to see where the items are. maybe the answer is the make the items highlighted when the killer perk is active.
that is a survivor perk. Plunder's Instinct.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769232#Comment_3769232
All that numerical stuff ignores the actual experience in game. As a Healer, I can get people back in the game to do all the gens, without other survivors swarming around. They focus on cracking the gens and making chases, whilst I keep a fast recovery.
You only need one Healer in the group, since the main focus is getting out. However, to say it's useless is just wrong. No amount of mathematics proves contrary.
on average, healing takes around 8 seconds per health-state. 3 people healing is what, 3 health-state in 24 seconds? you heal 3x as much in what current med-kit does. there is also the fact that most maps are so big that every single killer except billy is unlikely interrupt you if you heal in the corner of the map opposite to the player being chased. too big for them to cross the distance from one end of the map to the other. wraith might get there after like 2 heals.
so yes i would definitely label as useless class. not worth picking over scout and escapist in my opinion. Guide could be worth it if they gave Guide Prove thyself and Deadline like Increased odds to get skill-check. that would be pretty good but current guide is whatever. Likely would need increase # of charges for each gen so that picking guide/generator class makes more sense.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Billy is mostly useful to zone survivors towards their teammate. For example, if Billy and Huntress are chasing the same survivor, Billy can use his fast movement to zoom past the survivor, and try to push the survivor towards Huntress. It's the same reason why Wraith is decent in this game mode. When one of the killers can easily move way faster than survivors, it makes it way easier for the killers to pincer attack a survivor.
This is also the reason why Trapper and Huntress are the weakest killer duo in 2v8. Both of them move so slowly, that they can just spend way too much time holding W, to chase survivors, because neither of them can zoom at high speed to quickly set up a pincer attack. This will increasingly become a problem with 2v8, if more killers are added to the game mode, because any duo pair that has two killers that are stuck moving at default speed, are going to struggle to zone survivors into a pincer attack.
i think it is mainly because those slows killer relied on camping, 3 gen and defensive gameplay to be effective and 2vs8 mode focuses on aggression, fast hooking and potent 1vs1. Billy is great for that. He easily setup pincers, can find cage players to tunnel them out and has decent 1vs1 if the player is skilled at curving. None of broken loop design in the maps matter if it is 2vs1.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769274#Comment_3769274
Crows trigger more than I pictured to be fair, when I run Languid I get far more value then running Stridor because it's only 50%, while Languid gets rid of Iron Will completely, people can run what they believe helps but I really wish people wouldn't use Stridor often because in the end it does more harm then good!
i'll run spies from shadow for spirit before i run lanquid touch.
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Stridor is more consistent perk, Languish touches relies on crows.
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@Legendary_deedee said:
It’s 100% getting nerf. My work here is done.
great description of survivor items in this game. no counter-play. oppressive and easy to use. they don't even cost perk slots unlike this killer perk.
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@Bluebird said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769234#Comment_3769234
I do agree on that sentiment, and the Survivor side is a topic in of itself, I am just simply speaking for the Killer side of things. I've thought of slowdowns for the Survivor side as well, such as 10 gens instead of 8, or less speed per person, or even only 2-man generators.
if their choice between the game playing slow or game playing fast. the game playing fast is superior. All i have to say though is that the game playing fast and aggressive kinda doesn't work too well with trapper in my opinion. you still feel like your camping killer that is playing a mode for chase oriented gameplay in which your not very good at.
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@Bluebird said:
One thing I've always thought of while playing 2v8, as both Killer and Survivor, is that there should be a way to slow down the game just a bit, and for a while I was thinking about making Hooking a requirement again, as that is a way to slow down the game on the Killer side (as well as increasing the Gen requirement to 10 Gens). However, while brainstorming with a few friends, I think I have an idea that'd work well.
When a Survivor is on their last hook stage, they are then able to be Mori'd. At this point, you can not send that Survivor into the claws, they must be Mori'd. In doing so, not only does it slow down the game by halting one Killer, but it also makes it so Mori's are actually something you can easily and consistently see without burning an Offering.
As a bonus, after a Mori is completed, both Killers can gain 150% speed for 5 seconds (basically Adrenaline after a Mori). That way, you (the Killer that just mori'd) can get back into the action quicker, and the other Killer can gain a boost for having gotten a Survivor out of the match. You can also make it so only the Killer who performed the Mori gets the 150% speed, if the other way seems too oppressive.
Thoughts?
killer don't need slowdown. the survivor objective time is super oppressive. even smallest amount of inefficiency from the killer results in a loss for the killer. part of the reason why there is no slowdown is that killer cannot use any strategy or barely any strategy to make their objective go faster on most killers. the game is somewhat balanced but it is razor sharp for killer to win. the killer has to make like… very little mistakes to come out on top.