Decarcassor
Decarcassor
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The visibility problem with Mount Ormond has been going on for a while now. Everybody know about it. Yet its apprently not a priority to fix it even though it make the map a huge pain to play on.
By the way isnt it weird that the weather on Ormond is basicly cloudy daytime ?
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Or you know, you could just play Myers ?
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@Poweas said:
Some people have said Pop goes the weasel is better than Ruin. I can totally see it working on Spirit actually, I'll try it out.
The 2 perks just don't have the same scope. Ruin slown down all the gens unconditionally as long as the totem stand. PGTW will set back a single generator that you kick provided you hooked a survivor within the last 30 seconds.
PGTW does nothing until you manage to hook someone and even then it can be wasted if there are no progressed generators around or if you have more important things to do than kicking a gen.
If I'm going to kick gens, I'd rather use Overcharge. It can be applied unconditionally and provide extra regression and a notification if the skillcheck is blown. And because it is unconditional it is actually great for keeping survivors from swarming a near finished generator.
But Overcharge, jut like PGTW is not a substitute for Ruin. Because Ruin work on a global scale and not a single generator at a time.
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I like ruin as a Hex because it encourage active play from the survivors and the killer. You can power trough it sure. But if you want to get rid of it you have to search and cleanse it. And the killer want to actiley protect it too if he can.
Unless it spawn in a stupid plain sight spot a few meters away from the survivors starting point of course...
In contrast, Corrupt Intervention encourage passive play. You can just hide and wait it out, wich many survivors will often do. It just make the game take 3 minute longer to actually start most of the time.
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I use Ruin because it is needed to have a chance against efficient survivors.
I don't use NOED because it punish survivors for doing their job and reward killers who do poorly during 90% of the game duration.
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The clown is moslty fine but I wish the Afterpiece Tonic stopped survivors from working the gens in the gas cloud. That would make trowing bottles on gens from far away much more appealing.
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There no reason to use Dark Devotion in its current form, it just has too many conditions with too little benefit. Monitor & Abuse is just more universally usefull and even Tinkerer is more reliable than Dark Devotion.
Its also one of thoses sad cases of a Perk that has no synergy with the killer it belong to. Dark Devotion require that you hit a survivor with a basic attack, the idea being that you let them go to pursue another target while you don't have a terror radius. But the way Plague work, she only want to use her basic attack once on Broken survivors to down them.
I've said this before but it need to either no longer be an obsession perk or last much, much longer on the obsession.
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@Bongbingbing said:
How they didn't see this when designing the map I don't know...
They should just remove the fog effect.
It was not as bad as it is now, before the Unreal Engine update. Something about the update made far away auras harder to see in general. This affect "clear" maps the most. Ormond is the worst, but Lery is quite bad too.
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Stoping the RBT timer in the killer's terror radius is a terrible, terrible idea. It just make them even less threatening than they are right now. Its not needed and nobody asked for it.
You are taking away the Pig's toys and giving her nothing back before we even know if there is problem to begin with.
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I like the Clown aestheticly. I think he is well crafted.
But I don't like how unimpactfull his power can feel and how underwhelming most of his add-ons are when they are not downright useless.
Survivors would certainly respect his tonic more if it had some sort of cumulative effect. The more you breath in, the worse it should be.
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@ClogWench said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/428519#Comment_428519
I agree it's not interesting, but it's also not pointless. The purpose is to draw out the game and give the killer time to deal with things. Making it shorter just weakens it
But what if it had skill checks ? What if it was a healing action ? This is what I mean by more interaction. Would it be fair to make it a bit shorter then ?
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Notice that I'm not talking about Legion being good or bad after the rework my only concern is about the completly uninteractive and risk free nature of Deep Wound and Mending.
I personnaly think a shorter Mending time would be fine if it was a more interactive mechanic for both killer and survivors.
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The question is: is it worth the trouble just to turn the Doctor into a worse Michael Myers ?
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@Carpemortum said:
@Kaelum The fact they are having to make changes because its become a problem, doesn't sound to you like it was being, i don't know, whats the term, exploited?
This was in response to your post about misusing the term exploit, which seems to have vanished? Don't know what thats about.
A few of your comments have vanished. Is someone deleting your responses??
I Disagree. My understanding is that they are making changes because Legion is a mess as a whole and not solely on the fact you can willingly break the chase to make survivors bleed to death. Thats just one of the many things players dislike about this killer. In fact, what would be the point of a bleed out mechanic in the first place if you could not use it to... well, bleed out peoples ? Wich is what happen when you play Legion the straightforward way right now.
For all we know making survivors bleed to death was always the primarily intended mechanic. Maybe its the restrictive conditions on the power that are the design mistake. Any killer can break chase. It just so happen that the Legion's power was apparently designed so he could benefit from doing so. Without official word from the designers we will never know.
Hopefully the upcomming changes will shed some light on that question and make this whole discussion entirely pointless. Until then I'll stand by my opinion that using the Legion power exactly has it is written is not an exploit. There are no rule about intentionally breaking chase and following survivors instead. That is all that matter to me.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/420560#Comment_420560
You mean killer right behind you. Simply looking backwards?
Moonwalking itself isn't an exploit. Using it to bypass a major part of legions power is, however.
Its not used to bypass the power. Its used to make the power actually do something. In its current form the Deep Wound effect is near complelty pointless. It does nothing in chases and it does nothing if you let the survivors go because mending is impossible to fail.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/419210#Comment_419210
Exactly. During a chase. Moonwalking is circumventing the chase. Even though you are literally chasing, making it backwards negates a power?
That's not intended, and is using a mechanic to bypass an intended feature. Aka exploit.
I cannot fathom what you are trying to say here. Moonwalking isn't even the important part. You can bleed out survivors with Legion without ever walking backward. You just have to interupt the chase and track them.
The Red Stain is a game mechanic that alert survivors that the killer is almost onto them or is coming right behind a corner and killers have adapted to it by moonwalking around corners to take survivors by surprise.
Deep Wound is a game mechanic that put survivors on a timer as long as they are not in a chase, so Legions have adapted to it by intentionally breaking chase while still pressuring the survivor in order to make the bloody timer relevant.
The power is poorly designed and moonwalking shenanigans are just the logical conclusion of how it currently works. You don't really have to do anything special, use specific add-ons or perks. You are not using a bug or breaking the game in any shape or form either. Its just a trick. A very, very annoying trick to be on the recieving end of, but that to me does not qualify as a genuine exploit.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't blame the players that are just using the tools they where given, blame the designers who concocted this mess of a killer ? But hey, maybe this whole discussion will become irrelevant in a few weeks so whatever.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It is an exploit. You're using unintended game mechanics to gain an advantage over your opponent and that to me sounds very much like an exploit.
No. It is working exactly as designed. The Deep Wound timer does not go down in a chase. Legion is just following stabbed survivors without chasing them. You don't even need to moonwalk, its just a quick way to interupt the chase without losing too much pace. All you have to do is track them at a distance. There are even perks to help you do that. Bloodhound, but also Predator and Stridor all help you follow survivors without entering a chase.
I have no clue what they intended because the whole power is a mess. The Legion are a 110% speed killer, so chasing survivors the regular way is not their forte. So you are supposed to use freral frenzy right ? Except it will take 4 hits of feral frenzy to down a survivor wich can take forever with frenzy reseting for each stab after the first one. If you do that the deep wound timer is completly irrelevant. So you leave them and go find someone else ? Ok, but then they just mend at 0 risk because it will freeze the timer at 1% no matter what and there are no skill checks for mending. The timer is entirely pointless if you use the mechanic the seemingly intended way.
The only way to make the power deliver its promise of bleeding deep wounds is to intentionaly break the chase. Thats not an exploit. Following and tracking survivors is not an exploit and neither is walking backward. Feral Frenzy is not bugged (unlike the blades add-ons right now), its working exactly as written on the can. Its just a can full of bad design.
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Its not an exploit, its just poorly tought design. As it is now, Deep Wound is a mechanic that reward the killer for moonwalking. Its probably not what the designers had in mind but it is what they made.
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Its interesting but I don't like that it reverse the idea of Lullaby starting weak and getting more and more powerfull. Your idea make it too similar to Ruin.
In my mind Lullaby should be an alternative to Ruin where you forfeit the early game power of Ruin in exchange for a potentially much stronger effect mid to late game. But right now the cons of Lullaby outwieght the pros. Its just as easy to find as Ruin with none of the benefit until you hook at least 2 or 3 survivors. Its just too vulnerable and too long to buildup.
Make Lullaby start the game inactive. Then the first time you hook a survivor, a dull totem activate and gains a stack. Make it require only 3 stack to get the full effect. And as the ultimate catch, if the totem is cleansed you can restart the Lullaby as long as there are dull totems remaining on the map.
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As someone who only recently started playing the game a few weeks after the Legion release, I deeply feel that grind. Getting the perks you want can take forever.
But the frustrating part is not so much taking a long way to get the things you want as it is accumulating trash tier perks and terrible add-ons allong the way. I have all this crap in my inventory I have no use for and I wish there was a way to refund some of it.
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Alternatively, it should take more than a light tap from a survivor to stop generator regression.
Survivors should go trough a generator restart animation that take about 2 seconds during wich the generator does not progress. If they can't complete the full animation (because they are interupted or flee), the generator regression keeps going.
Also failing the Overcharge skill check should resume generator regression.
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@mcNuggets said:
It's the bad totem spawns.
Killers dont complain normally about survivors destroying it, but about the extremely bad totem spawn.
Indeed.
The killer bet one of his perk slots on Hex: Ruin. Survivors have then the choice of suffering the effects or invest some of their time searching for it. If the survivors spawn right next to it and/or the totem is just out in the open without any cover, the Killer is just trhowing a perk slot away.
But at least Ruin is active from the get go. At worst it might still buy you a few seconds of extra generator time. Hexes like Huntress Lullaby, Devour Hope or Third Seal, don't really do anything until some conditions are met. And theses are lit up from the start just like Ruin. But since they don't affect generators repair speed, survivors are less likely to actively go look for them from the start. If theses totems spawn in the open and/or right next to the survivor, it really feels like a middle finger to the killer.
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He is a basic killer with an unimpressive power. It might be effective, but I don't find it it satisfying to use. Not like a good Doctor shockblock or the sweet *Snap!* of a bear trap.
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@OMagic_ManO said:
Run Monitor and Abuse with any aura detection build or anything with finding survivors, keep survivor pressure. Honest Opinion? Thanatophobia would be OP on her, you can't heal up with her.
You can in fact heal more easily than against any other killer, thanks to the Pools of Devotion. And Thanatophobia's numbers are laughably low. Maxed out Thanatophobia will only add 12.8 seconds to a generator worked by a single survivor from 0 to 100%. Thats nothing. And also its not accounting for great skill checks, or any perks, tools and add-ons the survivors might have.
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@QwrtyMan213 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/401678#Comment_401678
Billy is S tier because his M2 is dual-edged -- in addition to being an instadown, it allows him to travel around the map at 230% speed. Only Nurse is capable of moving around the map faster (333%, but only in short bursts)
Leatherface, on the other hand, cannot use his chainsaw to apply map pressure, and the penalty for a wall hit is MUCH higher for Leatherface. In addition, the way that Leatherface's chainsaw charges (hold until a full charge, then release whenever) compared to Hillbilly (hold and release at will, until you have a full charge) makes fake-outs much more costly in terms of time and distance for Leatherface.
THAT is why Leatherface is only good for BBQ (and hook-guarding) and why Billy is consistently top-tier.
That's a great explanation. Thank you very much. 👍️
I'd still put Leatherface a notch above Freddy though. A bad chainsaw is still better than Dream Demon.
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I've yet to find a best build, for the simple reason that since, she is the latest killer realeased, I have to painfully grind trough the Bloodweb to find perks I'm interested in among all the unlocked teachables.
The only thing I'm fairly sure about is having replaced Corrupt Intervention with Hex: Ruin. Too often with CI, survivors will just hide for the whole duration, making the early game incredibly boring. And after that its a garanteed dead slot.
I run Stridor because I've found it early and it help locate infected survivors who cough and grunt a lot even before being broken.
Finally I run Monitor & Abuse, because I haven't found anything worth replacing it and its always nice. And I run Overcharge for nearly the same reason, but I've found that the Plague can often end up in a 3 gen situation, by infecting generators, and Overcharge just help making it worse for the survivors.
I will update my build when I find more perks. Also one thing to note is that all anti-healing perks are near useless for Plague because of the Pools of Devotion.
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To some extent I feel she is over-designed. She could have worked with just the sickness part and none of that fountain back and forth nonsense.
The Plague we've got is not weak, but sort of complicated to learn.
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@Numinous said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/398204#Comment_398204
And how many times have you hit multiple targets in one run out of the basement?
The multi-hit part is not really the important one here. Even if its not as good as Billy's, its still an insta-down attack. In fact the only major difference beetween Bubba and Billy is the mobility. So how come they are rated so far apart ?
Likewise, if the Clown's ability to moderatly inconvenience survivors with his tonic is enough to propel him to B Tier, how come the Doctor who can flat out prevent survivors from vaulting or dropping pallets and know where they are all the time is a whole rank below ?
I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here. Am I missing something really terrible that cripple the Cannibal to the point of making him worthless ? Is there something about the Clown I just don't know or understand that put him a league above the other M1 default stats killers ?
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I always wonder why the Clown seem consistently placed higher than the others base stats M1 killers on theses lists. And also why the Cannibal is rated so low despite having an insta-down attack that can hit multiple targets.
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To be perfectly clear, the scratch marks where always difficult to see on Ormond. The 2.6.1 patch supposedly fixed that issue, but it also introduced new lightings and graphics from the Unreal Engine update that actually made the overall visibility worse. Especially auras who are incredibly muted and meld into the background whiteness of the map.
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There is clearly some work going into his visual and sound design and he has default speed and TR wich is better than some killer have. But his power does not look impressive and its effects are rather subtle. You could easily get the impression that his power does nothing, especially against confident survivors who aren't afraid of running trough the gas when its the right call.
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Adrenaline being countered by the Broken status makes perfect sense since it prevent healing.
Adrenaline waking you up is a caveat that only apply to Freddy and really does not need to be there since being asleep does not prevent you from escaping.
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Slightly is 5 seconds, Moderately is 10. There are no add-ons that would increase it any further.
And yes, I also ear that sound. Its a little bit annoying.
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As a first step I would make it so that the survivors never see the auras of Pools of Devotion. Theses things are everywhere, often right next to a hook or generator and make a very disctinctive noise allready.
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Oh hey, my initial post came back. Now it just look like I'm repeating myself. :p
So yeah in the grand scheme of things Ruin does not even do that much against decent survivors. Its just that in comparaison to the alternatives existing perks or nothing at all, its a shining beacon of radiant hope.
Bandaid perks are never a solution, for sure. I just thought of Hex: Third Seal because we are discussing totems, its possibly the most lackluster of them all and its power is supposed to be hiding stuff from survivors. Frankly it could hide the Jigsaw Boxes and Pools of Devotion and it still wouldn't be that strong. But that is another topic.
At the end of the day because of the random nature of totems placement there will always be the chance of them appearing very close to the survivors. Adding totem protection utility to some neglected perks might not be ideal but its better than creating entirely new perks for that purpose only, I think.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/388597#Comment_388597
I'm not putting my eggs in one basket as Ruin is the only basket that is available to us. This is the basket that was thrown at us and told to deal with it. I am talking at rank 1 here, the survivors don't even have to be swf to be competent enough to end the game in 5min. PGTW is a very bad perk, you are losing all of your pressure every time you go and hit that gen and that is also requiring a down and hook each time as well, something that is not happening regularly against competent survivors at rank 1. You also not running Ruin means you just lost at least 2 if not 3 of your gens for just your first hook. PGTW is probably awesome at low ranks, but so is every other perk and low ranks aren't where the game has its balance issues like this 5min game problem.
Like you said though, Ruin has a lot less effect on high rank players and I'd agree. The problem is there are no other actually good options. It's the best we've been given.
"There's other options out there that are safer and more reliable if you really count on it to slow down the game"
Which perks are you referring to? The math has been done already on all the slow down perks and most of them are doing very little. In most cases they are all also doing way less than Ruin even when it does get cleansed in the first minute. I think you are way overvaluing how good the games other slow down perks actually are, especially at rank 1.
Made a long post to sort of say the same thing, but somehow it got eaten when I tried to edit it. Need a bit of time to get used to this forum I suppose.
Anyway I concur. There is absolulty no other perks that provide as much as Ruin does when it come to slowing down the gens. Even with the downside of being a Hex.
But back on topic, while the LoS check at the start of the game is a good first step, some totems spots are still ridiculously obvious. Survivors should have to invest a little bit of their time looking for totems, not just stumble upon them while doing something else.
Messing with the totem's glow and noise seem like an interesting idea. Ruin is definitly powerfull enough to warrant an obvious glow from the start, but what about Hexes like Lullaby or Devour Hope that require stacks to be of any use at all. Theses are considered active from the start of the game despite doing allmost nothing until you get some stacks on them. What if they started the game dull, and progressively lit up and made more noise with each stack you get on them ? Would that make them more appealing ?
And while we are throwing crazy ideas at the wall, what if Hex:Third Seal had the bonus effect of making all the totems look dull. Its thematic and it's not like it would suddenly make Third Seal OP.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/388565#Comment_388565
I would disagree there. Fast games are due to coordinated survivors, and coordinated survivors can either hit skill checks or memorize totem spawn points. Worst case scenario one person searches for it while the rest split up on different generators. The benefit you gain from it against a good team is marginal. It affect newer players more than experienced players, and you would hopefully be doing well against new players even without it.
If you count solely on ruin to make your games last longer, you're putting all your eggs in one basket, and that basket isn't really going to help anyway. I've started to run PGTW instead and it's been working way better. It doesn't get disabled part way through the game and you can use it strategically.
Even if you just power through a generator with ruin, and you get an average of 6 skill checks (about average, 8% each second, 80 seconds, adds up to 640% chance in total), and if you only hit goods, you would only add 42 seconds.
Pop Goes The Weasel will knock a good 20 seconds worth of progress off a generator each time you use it. You can use it to quickly regress a generator that's almost complete or to protect a specific set of generators. It can't get destroyed, and depending on how well you do, you can use it a bunch of times over the course of one game. The skill level of the survivors you're going against also does not play a factor, they cannot hard counter PGTW.
Yes, ruin would give you more time, but it's got the risk of being destroyed, and it's not really going to stop people from being coordinated and rushing through generators anyway. There's other options out there that are safer and more reliable if you really count on it to slow down the game, but so long as you are running a hex perk, you running the risk of it being destroyed.
Pop Goes the Weasel is nowhere near in the same category as Hex: Ruin as far as I'm concerned. Its a "Win More" perks only good if the game is allready going your way. You need to have hooked someone for it to even be usable and its got a time limit. Not very reliable in my book.
If you manage to get some momentum early, then yes PGTW will be effective at keeping the gens down. If you don't, it will do next to nothing has you struggle to get a hook and gens are firing up left and right.
Hex: Ruin is the opposite. It keeps the gens under control all over the map from the very beggining of the game. Survivors will be doing the gens slower with more risk of screwing up, or wasting time looking for the totem (provided they don't spawn right on top of it, in ridiculously plain sight). Also checking your totem is an excellent way to find your first survivor. And while its true that once destroyed it is a dead perk slot, the longer you can keep it online, the more benefits you will reap from it.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that Hex: Ruin will always do something for you, even if it last for 30 seconds and is exponentialy valuable the longer it goes. All other gens control perks pale in comparison moslty because they can only by applied manually 1 gen at a time.
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Now where was I going with this ? Not sure. Anyway, survivors should have at least to look around for totems and not just stumble upon them by accident. LoS check is a good first step. Now we need to get rid of the of the plain sight or obvious totem spots.
Right now the only Hexes that get used are thoses who provide an immediate and valuable benefit from the get go or "trap" hexes wich trigger at the end of the game or when the totems are destroyed. All the totems that require some kind of build up are largely ignored because the risk reward ratio is so defavorable.
What if the sound and glow of a totem was tied to its current effectiveness ? So Ruin would be fully lit all the time, but Lullaby or Devour Hope would only start to glow faintly once you get at least one stack on it and glow brighter as you add stacks.
And while we are throwing crazy ideas at the wall, what if Hex: Third Seal prevented survivors form seeing the glow of totems by default ? Would it be worth using then ?
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Thanatophobia does little to no effect. The numbers are just too small and are simply impossible to maintain at max level anyway, unless the survivors enable it somehow.
Do you know what thanatophobia does at the begining of the game ? Nothing. Then you find a survivor and hook them. The other 3 now have a whooping 4% global action penalty. That is 3.2 seconds of a full gen. Except by the time you found your first survivor some gen progress will have happened allready and its not accounting for multiple survivors working on the same gen. So realisticly it will be less than 1 or 2 extra seconds.
Even at max stack, thana is 12.8 extra seconds to repair a full gen solo. 2.56 extra seconds of basic heal time. And this is also without taking the various action speed bonus the survivors might have through perks and tools into consideration. Even the most basic healing kit or toolbox completly negate the effects of fully stacked thanatophobia.
And how long can you realistically maintain the full 16% action penatly over the course of the whole game ? It will only moderatly inconvenience the survivors if they refuse to heal for some reason. Otherwise they will barely notice it.
Not to mention that thana become less effective the better you are doing as the killer. Dead survivors don't count for the action penalty. So if you manage to kill a survior early, the perk will be less effective overall. But if you killed someone early the game is probably going well for you and you probably didn't need thanatophobia in the first place ! You would get much better results by running Dying Light and tunneling the obsession.
Thanatophobia is at best a mild annoyance for survivors and highly unreliable. If you still think its worth a perk slot, well thats your choice. I'm not here to tell you how to play your game, just to shed some light on some cold uncarring numbers.
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You do not know true pain until you have experienced 2.6.0 Mount Ormond with extra fog reagent offerings. My eyes still hurts.
This is a problem.