Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592656#Comment_3592656
i think i will try trickster out but i don't think he will be any good. so probably not worth playing. I am mostly waiting for chucky. it is going feel good to have a killer that activates ability and has potencial to get a hit at every single loop. there has not been a single killer like that since release Spirit, release Legion and Nurse.
I’m going to skip Chucky. He’s a killer with limited stealth, that warns the survivors when he’s in stealth mode. I use stealth to find survivors that like to pre-leave generators, and Chucky is sort of useless there. I’d rather play new Skull Merchant if I wanted a killer with limited stealth.
And Chucky’s M2 just reminds me of what Blight could do before they heavily nerfed his object sliding. It sounds great, until the survivors realize object sliding requires the killer to be stuck at the loop, and the survivors start leaving the loop when they think the killer is going to slide.
And I’m expecting the scamper nerf to allow survivors to often escape getting hit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591323#Comment_3591323
last time trickster got changed, he got buffed when he was 4.4. after ptb, they nerfed his throwing-rate to 2.5x and reduce knife count to 44 with laceration+add-on nerfs. After 3-4 weeks, they reverted some of changes. they'll likely do something similar.
I would likely just wait on trickster until his he goes through his usual "phases".
I have a bunch of bloodpoints that I was saving up, to buy Trickster addons… but I’m just going to spend it on Blight instead.
And I’ll just continue to play Huntress if I want a useful ranged character.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592084#Comment_3592084
Against Huntress you can actually try to dodge the thing, her fully charged hatchet only moves at 40 m/s... Same goes for slinger, it is one projectile that you can focus on dodging... so what exactly are you even trying to point out here? Besides the point that Huntress has a far longer windup and needs to charge her hatchet so she can even reach the max speed, because otherwise it is rather easy to dodge...
Are you seriously telling me it’s easy to dodge Huntress hatchets at 10m away, but it would be impossible to micro dodge Trickster knives? I’m done here. This conversation can’t be for real.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592022#Comment_3592022
Ok so lets say survivors hitbox is lik 50-60 cm wide or whatever for the sake of the argument. The knives fly at like 55m/s, the survivor is let's say 10m ahead of you, so the knive arrives there after a little bit less of 0.2 seconds in 0.2 seconds you can move 80cm as survivor, so you can somewhat outmaneuver the middle of the your model so a knive doesn't hit you there. The point however is, if you only do micro dodges that are not at least 20-30 cm to each side then this won't do anything because the part of your hitbox is still at a point where it can be hit by the knives.
The thing is as survivor you don't really actively dodge, because the knives fly so fast and are so many that the only thing you are doing is making yourself harder to hit. But by doing those dodges to the side you are also slowing yourself down, like I said before if you only move a few centimeters to each side your hitbox is still where he aims, and those majors wiggles to each side slow you down. For this point it does not matter how small the knife hitbox is, if the hitbox of the survivor is still at the same point it will hit, who cares if you hit their pinky finger or the torso?
If the survivor was 10m away, and in line of sight long enough for Trickster to land 8 knives, then Huntress could have easily landed 1 hatchet, and Deathslinger could have easily landed 1 harpoon shot.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591856#Comment_3591856
The knives move at 55 m/s, they are the fastest projectile in the game...
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591856#Comment_3591856
Sure but then again the knives are the fastest projectiles in the game without windup like Huntress so who else can you blame?
Do you understand that the knives have hitboxes that are so small, that at mid distance (or farther), Trickster can miss knives even if he’s literally keeping the survivor in the middle of his screen 100% of the time?
(Middle as in left/right, because the projectiles fall, so Trickster needs to aim higher than the middle of the screen at mid distance (or farther))
((Also, middle as in "he's aiming slightly to the right if the knife is being thrown from the left hand, and slightly to the left if the knife is being thrown from the right hand, because Trickster's knives aim for different parts of the screen, depending on which hand is throwing, and removing recoil doesn't change that, which means console players will still have aiming issues if they can't micro fix literally every other knife being thrown))
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591732#Comment_3591732
No clue how you got that conclusion... That statement was literally what the devs said in the dev update, if you don't hit the knife it is on you... You cannot blame recoil any longer. The point is that bigger dodging movements will only slow you down and you would need to do so many that it is basically pointless you will go down when you are in the open even at some distance.
BHVR said "You won’t be able to blame the recoil for that Blade you missed." Do you understand that is NOT the same thing as "if Trickster ever misses a blade, it's 100% the killer's fault"?
Trickster's knives are tiny hitboxes. You can micro dodge them at mid distance because the knives have a travel time.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591630#Comment_3591630
The movement speed buff is meant to help in that very thing though, allowing him to keep LoS with survivors far more frequently, something he severely struggles at on loops cause of his slow movement speed.
The movement speed buff will help him get more M1 attacks, which will help in situations where using the M2 isn't practical.
But this whole idea of idea of Trickster using the movement speed buff to get extra single knife hits, isn't good. If Trickster is in a situation where he can only get a knife hit every once in a while, then he's better off just going for an M1 attack. So yes, it's a buff in the sense that Trickster could end chases faster, but it means using his M2 power less often, which doesn't fit the "We want Trickster to have a rapid fire playstyle" goal that BHVR had with Trickster's rework.
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591679#Comment_3591679
But if the throw modifier is the same, then there is no change? Also the thing was overpowered, 6 knives or even 3 with addons is way too little I find even 8 too little since you can get it basically every chase.
If you loop someone on a tile where you cannot get a single knife in every 10 seconds then you seriously need to drop chase... It should be possible failry easily to not suffer from that.
People experienced all that on the PTB and as far as I know most content creators agreed that it was a massive buff and even too much. If you don't hit all of your knives without the recoil then that is completely on you, also survivors loose a huge amount of distance with that wiggling motion and it doesnt even matter because even if you dodge two or three there are 41 more coming so who cares.
Recoil being gone is also affecting main event right? the thing you basically have every chase now?
You honestly think people are going to have 100% accuracy if Trickster has 0 recoil, and the survivor isn't in close range? Is that comment for real?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591623#Comment_3591623
It is definitively a buff, just because you go around tiles faster and are able to get knives in where you would have not been able to land them before as a 110 %m/s killer. That alone is quite massive.
That second paragraph really does not make sense, Trickster used to have 8 knives per health state in past and nobody came to this conclusion? It is now easier to hit the knives, because recoil is gone. And sure technically you need more knives to down someone, but if you ever run out of knives if you can basically miss almost 30 of them just to get a down then there is nothing I can do to help you, you have more than enough knives to get a down and then reload, especially considering how easy it is to aquire main event, which does not use knives.
I think even now the throwing rate during main event is still higher than the throw rate outside of it? According to the wiki main event has a throw rate multiplier of 1.33, if that did not get changed and I don't remember it being mentioned in the patch notes then this statement just is not true? Or did I misunderstand you in some way? I mean sure, he got nerfed from PTB to now, but from current live servers to what will happen in 5 days it is still a massive buff, they really overbuffed him in the first change though.
I don't see how you are being pushed into a certain playstyle? You might want to elaborate on it?
People were acting like PTB main event was some overpowered thing that needed to be severely limited, but it wasn't, because Trickster's normal PTB throw rate was so high. Main event on live is a huge thing, because there's a long ramp up with the throw rate. Yes, PTB main event was still a faster throw rate, but it was mostly there for the unlimited ammo.
... Suggestion... If Main Event needed to be nerfed, then BHVR should have just nerfed the throwing rate, so that it's the same as Trickster's normal throwing rate, to make it clear that Main Event is just there for the unlimited ammo.
If Trickster is on a tile where the faster movement speed would be meaningful, then he'd only be getting a knife here or there, and would be fighting the boosted laceration decay.
Recoil being gone is only meaningful if people were trying to rapid fire. If the survivor wasn't super close, then I was either mostly doing the maxed non-recoil fire rate, or I would do short bursts of 2 knives, because the recoil doesn't kick in until the 2nd knife. Trickster could also do bursts of 3 or 4 knives with minimal recoil. Trying to rapid fire knives against a survivor that's not close, is still going to be not very accurate (even with zero recoil) if the survivor is doing wiggle movements... and rapid fire at that range was mostly only doable with main events.
I think people are severely overestimating how accurate people are going to be with rapid fire knives, when the survivor isn't close. The knives have travel time, and even if Trickster perfectly follows the survivor, he can still miss knives if the survivor isn't close.
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Yes. All 4 of those perks are nerfs compared to their live versions. The fact that 2 of the new addons are bloodpoint addons (if I wanted to extend main event, then lucky blades would be a much better choice), feels awful.
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@Zokenay said:
He was overtuned af mate, Main Event is essentially an ultimate, him being able to spam it constantly like he did was just a massive NO.
Also, take in mind he kept most of his other buffs, specially the movement speed and removal of recoil, both pretty heavy buffs, which were also his biggest issues on Live.
No. His biggest issue on live, is that Trickster is very often in situations, where Huntress could have removed a health state, but Trickster couldn't remove a health state. That's really not going to change with new Trickster, beyond the fact that Trickster's increased moving speed means he will be able to get more M1 attacks than Huntress.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591593#Comment_3591593
In the end it is still a massive buff for Trickster...
For purposely of using his M2, it's not really a buff. With current Trickster, I often throw knives at max non-recoil rate, and only need to land 6 knives per health state.
But nerfing knives to require 8 per health state, means Trickster is supposed to rely more with rapid fire knives, which means less accuracy (even though the recoil has been removed), which means it's easier to run out of knives since they didn't increase the number of knives he can hold. And as I mentioned before, purposely having main event activate at the same number of knives as a health state, means that a lot of main events will get wasted.
And the most important thing about PTB main event, was that PTB Trickster had such a high regular knife throwing rate, that PTB main event wasn't a huge boost like it is on live, and was much more about having unlimited ammo, than it was about the knife throwing rate.
Honestly, I'd rather have the current Trickster, so I only need 6 knives, and not be forced into a rapid fire style that encourages me to run out of knives easily. I don't care about faster walking speed, or zero recoil, because neither or that is going to fix the fact that if I tried a "rapid fire" gameplay with new Trickster, I'd constantly be feeling like I'm out of knives, and that I'm being punished for trying to have a rapid fire gameplay. Also, does anyone else realize how much of a nerf Iridescent Photocard is? With current Trickster, it's literally "hit 4 knives, the survivor is exposed, then M1 for two health states". That was huge, and massively powerful.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Let's discuss about this effect in general, what problems it has and what can make it fixed.
For me, it's pretty useless against SWF teams while stomping solo teams.
So this reason makes this effect pretty weak and unhealthy same time. I am rarely seeing killers are using blindness perks and add-ons. Except Ultimate Weapon ofcourse but who is using this perk for Blindness anyway.
I actually have idea for fix problem and make it worth to get:
- Blindness is no longer blocks survivor auras. This effect was useless against SWF teams and it only hurt solo teams.
- Blindness is still blocking loop auras, this effect is works for all survivors. There is no reason to change it.
- It still blocks gen, chest etc auras as before. No reason to change.
- New effect: Survivor vault speeds reduced by x%. Now this makes sense since blindness makes survivors hard to see by lore wise. If your view is not clear, you can't jump effectively. Ofcourse this will be strong effect, so some add-ons and perks can get rework or time reducation nerfs. Except Third Seal because it's hex perk. It supposed to be strong.
Most SWFs aren't groups of 4 people, that are all on voice comms, that are all making competitive callouts with their voice comms.
Blindness is still useful against most SWFs. Also, blindness should be in the game, so that survivors can know how bad it feels to have auras blocked. As long as perks like distortion exist, which hides auras from killers, there should absolutely be perks that hide auras from survivors.
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@Peanits said:
A little more to the left would cover the left side, and bringing it a tiny bit closer towards the pallet would make sure the gap on right doesn't get any bigger.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590861#Comment_3590861
It's tricky because the trap's detection needs to match the trap itself. If we make it any bigger, you end up with scenarios where the survivor rightfully avoided it (like this one), but the trap 'teleports' to them and catches them anyway.
Just as a bit of a rant, when I first started this game, I tried playing Trapper, since he looked like he was supposed to be the beginner character...
...and then stuff like this happened, all the time. If I tried placing traps at narrow spaces, I would be slightly off and survivors could just hug a side. If I tried placing traps at windows, then it was always slightly off, and depending on how fast a survivor was vaulting the window, they could bypass the trap ...Sometimes I tried placing traps at undropped pallets, just to find out that if a survivor dropped the pallet they could bypass the trap, and I couldn't find a place where a single trap would work at an undropped pallet, and still work if the pallet was dropped.
If Trapper is supposed to be a "beginner" character, then he's an absolute failure, because the amount of game knowledge required, and the amount of pixel perfect trap placement required, is way way way too much for a beginner.
Yes, I do think traps should be large enough that beginners should easily be able to block a narrow path with a single trap. Yes, I do think traps should be large enough that beginners should easily be able to block a vault or pallet (regardless if the pallet is dropped or undropped) with a single trap. And if this means the actual model of the trap needs to be made larger, then that should happen. I honestly have no idea how Trapper is supposed to be fun or fair for beginner killers, when it involves constantly watching survivors run straight by their traps, and not get caught, because "technically the survivors didn't go through the trap".
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@okaayletsgoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590710#Comment_3590710
It's not "their" game it's BHVRs game and one person doesn't dictate the state of things. If enough people complain about something broken it gets fixed. That's how it's supposed to work.
By your logic survivor should be able to slug the killer and watch them bleed out since the killer can do it to survivors. Eye for an eye right? Something about the world going blind right? Again, horrible mindset to have. "Instead of fix world hunger make everyone suffer the same" essentially is what you just said in an extreme scenario of course.
Do you think killers should have a separate button for picking up survivors?
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@okaayletsgoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590587#Comment_3590587
Or the dev should be reported and made to do better? Horrible take on that brother.
Reporting the dev won’t do anything. It’s their game, and they decided they want killers to have this negative quality of life, even though it’s easily fixable. The “drop survivor” button could be changed to a “pickup or drop survivor” button.
So now we’re in a situation where both sides should suffer, out of fairness.
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A while ago, I asked if killers could have a separate button to pick up survivors, and a dev literally told me to “deal with it”.
So I think windows and lockers absolutely should be thrown next to each other, and survivors should “deal with it”.
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Picture watermarks in 2023? I thought those stopped being useful a long time ago, back when AI learned how to remove them in like 3 seconds?
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Calm Spirit and Distortion needs to be deleted, reworked, or heavily nerfed. Excessively hiding survivors are a major game problem.
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@ChrissyG88 said:
I'm a killer main who will occasionally play as survivor, but the thing that puts me off playing as survivor is when a killer tunnels me, because I'm simply not good enough in chase. There have been too many occasions where I've been killed off the game quicker than the amount of time it's taken to actually find a game in the first place.
I'm not against people who do tunnel, and admittedly I do tunnel when I'm killer, mainly because it's just the most meta tactic. If a survivor is killed with 3 or more gens remaining, even if the other 3 survivors have no hook stages, it is extremely rare for the survivors to win.
So here's my suggestion for disincentivizing tunnelling:
Part 1 (disincentivize tunneling): If a survivor has been killed out of the game whilst the other 3 survivors have a combined total of 2 hook stages or less, then the three remaining survivors get a 10% bonus to repairing, healing, cleansing, sabotaging, unhooking and exit gate opening, plus a 3% haste boost.
Part 2 (Incentivize anti-tunneling): If all 4 survivors have had at least 1 hook stage before any have been killed, then as soon as the 4th survivor is hooked for the 1st time, all the survivors have a 5% penalty to repairing, healing, cleansing, sabotaging, unhooking and exit gate opening, plus a 2% haste penalty.
The numbers themselves are simply a guide, but if a rework of the game along these lines are implemented, then I think it could lead to a much more enjoyable game for both killers and survivors. It would obviously be a huge rework to the game, but I'd personally love it if these changes came into play.
I'm sure people will find gaping flaws in my suggestion, and I'd be happy to hear them.
Part 2 is absolute garbage, because some survivors like to excessively hide, and aren't worth the effort to find them, while there are other survivors that are much easier to find.
SWFs could just make sure there would be 1 survivor that's excessively hiding, or excessively protected, to make sure the killer never gets part 2 happening. Solo q could just have 1 player with perks like Distortion + Calm Spirit, that is excessively hiding and pre-leaving generators.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587557#Comment_3587557
Gonna take a stab in the dark and guess you play with aura perks and Ultimate Weapon? As a survivor main, neither of those perks are bothersome to me when my team mates have them. Played with an Adam the other day who had Calm Spirit, and the two of us were working on a gen. I screamed and the killer came our way, so I ran off and instigated chase and the killer didn't even check the gen so Adam continued uninterrupted. It was great for the team.
Me: Players that run perks like Distortion or Calm Spirit, don't like to help with chases
You: I got this great story where my teammate was using Calm Spirit, so I got chased instead
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587605#Comment_3587605
I’m surprised you read their diatribe. I stopped at “Calm Spirit needs a nerf.” 🤷🏽♀️
It does need a nerf. Stealth perks shouldn't be active 100% of the entire game. Stealth perks like Off the Record are much healthier for the game, because they work as anti-tunnel, instead of literally just "works all the time, even if the survivor has never interacted with the killer the entire game"
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587445#Comment_3587445
One perk that is easy to buff, would be calm spirit. You only have to delete/change the part, where you do chests and boons slower.
It wouldn’t need much time. I don‘t understand why it punishes you for useing it.
I‘ve got two ideas I want to share to a dev and know what you think about it:
-1: Could you make that luck also effects chests, so that you get better items. Also please make the loot of chest better without luck. I can‘t remember the last time I got a purple item from a chest.
-2: A second way to escape as team (with hatch): At first you do 3-5 gens (depending how many are alive), which reveals the hatch. Then you have to find or do something on the map and after that you can open the hatch with a purple/red key. When the hatch got open there should be a bubble for the killer, that lets him know, that the hatch got open and where it is. There should also be a way that the killer knows, when the survivors go for this way. And if you don‘t want to implement it to every round, you could make a red offering for survivors.
I hope I get an answer from a dev, what you think about this ideas. Thx
If my post appears more than one time, I‘m sorry, there came a lot of errors, when I tried to upload it and it got deleted, after I changed something.
Calm Spirit and Distortion are the two biggest problems in the game... and they should be deleted, reworked, or heavily nerfed.
Perks shouldn't make it super easy for survivors to excessively hide, because it just encourages the killer to tunnel out the other survivors. It also encourages survivors to never help with chases, and to just watch everyone else get sacrificed.
Survivors that excessively hide are awful for everyone else in the game. It's frustrating for killers. And when I'm playing survivor I NEVER EVER want these people in my games, because it means I either need to play the game excessively safe (which can drag out the game to 30+ minutes when all the survivors are doing this), or I need to just accept the fact that I won't escape because the killer will find me over and over before finding any of these excessive hiders.
And as survivor, it's often frustrating having excessively hiding teammates, because they often aren't repairing as much as they should, because they only want to repair if the survivor HUD shows the killer chasing someone else. Or they'll excessively pre-leave generators at the first sight of a visual terror radius, which also means the generators are barely getting repaired.
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@myersgoestochurch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585155#Comment_3585155
There is also no reason to give them free kills since there is no rule regarding exit gates having to be close to each other, you just made up that rule to serve your interest 🥱
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585142#Comment_3585142
Rambling aimlessly doesn't mean you're making a point, fyi. Next time please try to actually make a point, thank you.
Exit gates being close to each other is valid ;)
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@myersgoestochurch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585037#Comment_3585037
Says who? You? Lol. It's not a problem whatsoever, it's a valid strat just like I said.
Why did you create a post about exit gate placement? lol. It’s not a problem whatsoever, it’s valid.
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Exit gates should always be near each other, because if the exit gates are too far apart, it encourages a hatch standoff where neither side wants to interact with the hatch.
For the killer, if they can’t defend both gates, then it’s better if the survivor gets hatch, for a guaranteed 0 MMR change. For the survivor, it’s better if the killer closes hatch, so they can escape out an exit gate for positive MMR.
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@myersgoestochurch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584478#Comment_3584478
Hiding is a valid strat, actually encouraged by the Devs ;)
Excessive hiding is a major game problem.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584478#Comment_3584478
But why should lockers be more reliable, for survivors or Dredge/Huntress/Trickster, on a map like Midwich or MacMillan, but not for Swamp?
Why the imbalance between locker placement on these maps, for either side?
Are there too many lockers on MacMillan? Is that what you're saying? Is a map that's good for Dredge an indication that it's also too survivor-sided due to having more lockers than necessary?
I’m saying that a locker pass would make every part of every map contain lockers, and that would be a large nerf for the vast majority of killers. It's better for the game, that some maps have imbalanced lockers, because of the survivors that like to excessively hide.
The actual best solution would be having special "half lockers", that survivors can't fit in, but Dredge/Huntress/Trickster can interact with for their powers. And if maps lacked lockers in some parts of some maps, then BHVR could throw the half lockers there, to help out the 3 killers that want lockers, without needing to nerf every other killer in the game.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584364#Comment_3584364
There's no reason why locker placement shouldn't be comparable between maps though.
Why is Swamp so short of lockers? It's already relatively killer sided outside of Dredge anyway, it wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lockers in strategic locations.
Even on Coldwind which isn't killer sided, as long as the extra lockers aren't added to existing strong loops, then they're not really buffing survivors.
Lockers I find are generally not used much by survivors anyway. Outside of Head On or Flashbang, they can be as much of a risk as a benefit. So place them outside of loops to avoid buffing Head On, and there's no reason why lockers shouldn't be equally available for the likes of Flashbang/Inner Healing.
Survivors that like to excessively hide, want lockers to always be available, so they can use them to dodge killer tracking perks. They also want reliable lockers to easy mode hide from the killer, because some uninjured survivors are extremely difficult to hear in lockers, even if the killer is right next to the locker, and there isn’t any chase music.
And yes, lockers being more reliable is a buff for survivors, even if they aren’t in a chase. Excessively hiding survivors is a major game problem, and we don’t need to make it any worse than it currently is.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/396923/thoughts-on-sprint-burst-and-lithe
Both are fine.
Lithe means you can't fast vault without activating it, so you can't loop efficiently. Meaning, you'll either burn your lithe early, or you'll burn a pallet early.
Sprint burst means you have to walk in order to not activate it. Slowing you down. Sure, you could always 99 it, but then you can't do anything at all (not even fall from a decent height) or you have it ready again. Additionally, it always activates right at the very start of a chase, making it much easier to play around. See 2 people on a gen and one of them sprint bursts away? Guess you know which one you are chasing.
…and the answer is that I’m chasing the survivor that just used Sprint burst, because they already used their exhaustion perk, so I don’t need to worry about MFT, or dead hard, or lithe, or any other exhaustion perk.
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@BooperDooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584271#Comment_3584271
Yeah I just care more about it for killers, not so much survivors, they're fine.
If a locker pass is done, and lockers are made more reliable for every single game, then you’re buffing survivors overall, because the majority of the games aren’t with the three killers that want reliable lockers.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584276#Comment_3584276
I am not saying cut these perks just because of pick-rates. I am completely against that.
But by your logic, yeah we should nerf all of these. Any perk which hits +20% should be nerfed then. I don't think this is good idea tho and i doubt devs will nerf these perks just cuz that.
My logic was perks that have massively overpicked pick rates, which was WoO and MFT. You’re the one that wanted to throw in a pain res nerf because of “if survivors get nerfed, then killers should be nerfed too” spite.
Yes, when perks start getting near 30% pick rate, they should be nerfed, and both WoO and MFT were up there. But if you want to throw in other perks out of spite, then sure, let’s nerf them too.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584260#Comment_3584260
Out of control? Last stats just shows it has 29% pick rate. And it has 34% on NL right now. If that's out of control, what was old Dead Hard?
PR has 21% pick-rate and the most popular killer perk atm. So if we are gonna hunt most pick-rated perks, PR will be nerfed too. Treatment happens equally for both sides. But we can't nerf perks just because they are being using so much. If there is balance issues, i am sure BHVR will take care it but there is not. Pick rate should never be nerf reason unless if there is balance issues like i said.
So i guess after MFT's nerf, our new excuse will be WoO?
WoO isn’t a new excuse. I’ve been complaining about it long before MFT existed.
And if you want to have a 20% pick rate cutoff, then we should be needing Adrenaline too. I usually don’t run pain res, because I think scourge hooks are unreliable, so if these perks need to be nerfed together, then whatever.
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Locker passes should only happen if the killer is specifically Dredge, Huntress, or Trickster.
We don’t need to buff survivors against every other killer in the game, by forcing all killers to deal with more reliable lockers.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584239#Comment_3584239
So if we are gonna nerf perks just for pick-rate, then WoO won't be nerfed alone. PR is almost on all killer builds.
The pick rate of WoO is out of control, even when compared to pain res. PR isn’t “almost on all killer builds”. None of the stats support that claim.
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Neither one of these perks is a priority. Windows of opportunity is the perk that should be nerfed next. The pick rate is out of control, and it can affect the first chase of the game way too much, because all the pallets are still available.
Does everyone remember dead hard got nerfed so it wouldn’t affect the first chase of the game? Windows of opportunity still has that issue, where it allows survivors to just bring the killer from pallet to pallet to pallet.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580011#Comment_3580011
The two things are the same. The only ways to affect the balance of solo queue versus SWF are going to be things that improve their experience, which is a win/win for everyone.
Even if they weren't the same, though, who cares? Everyone gets quality of life improvements, there's no reason solo queue players should be left out in the cold there.
Survivors getting quality of life improvements aren’t a win/win for everyone. It’s just a win/win for survivors. It means that survivors get stuff that affects the vast majority of them, and killers get left in the cold yet again.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579988#Comment_3579988
No, it isn't. Acting like talking about the difference between SWF and solo queue is only caring about survivors' experience is a narrow view, because it is actually a very important element for balancing the entire game, including both roles.
Yes, they could be doing those things. They could be doing a thousand things that could help the game. All you can fairly say about the current situation is that they just aren't doing those things right now, not that they're neglecting killer players or whatever.
Balancing the kill rates between solo q and SWF is important for both sides of the game. Giving survivors quality of life improvements is not important for both sides of the game. There is a difference.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579930#Comment_3579930
That's an extremely limited view, though. The balance of solo queue versus SWF is important for everyone, it's not "survivors get [x]". If that balance is, y'know, balanced better, things which affect killers can be more potent and effective because they won't be fighting against two separate groups who get affected differently.
Also, those two statements should get the reactions you're talking about. If you say "playing against SWFs is miserable", it hints not only that you've got some confirmation bias regarding specific annoying games, but that you actually want to do something about it. Well, doing something about it usually means nerfing SWF, and that's why the response you lay out is an appropriate one.
Also, killers do get quality of life updates. You're just narrowing the options down to just QoL that affects the shared killer basekit, rather than QoL that affects both sides or that affects a specific killer.
Wanting quality of life buffs that can apply to all killers isn’t “a narrow view”. There are so many purposely frustrating killer mechanics, like purposely bad FoV, purposely loud chase music, a forced short M1 attack mechanic that can steal hits from the killer, purposely overturned sound occlusion, purposely unreliable footsteps, maps that are purposely red to hide scratch marks and pools of blood, etc.
BHVR could be addressing those, and then make generic number adjustments to fix the kill rate if it gets raised too high.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579711#Comment_3579711
So, just to be clear: This is a completely different thing to what you said first and what I was responding to. I'll happily respond, but this is a different conversation to the one we started. I'm assuming that just means you don't have anything to disagree with in my post, though.
So, to your question: we get there... either never, or immediately, depending on your point of view. If you think survivors playing well is inherently miserable, you're never gonna see that meaningfully addressed because it's just how things go. However, if you mean being able to leverage aggressive use of mildly unbalanced things (kinda like old locker flashlight saves, for example, or more extremely unbalanced things like old hatch), that's part of what I was talking about before.
As you make "survivor" a coherent role you can balance in one go, part of that balancing will be tuning down the things that SWF players can use to make the game miserable for killers. It's not only part of that effort, it requires that effort for it to be fairly possible.
What I intended to say first, and I still think is the most important point of this conversation, is that survivors keep getting quality of life updates like the survivor HUD, and killers still don’t have an FoV slider, even though it’s the one and only announced quality of life update for them.
And this happens because “solo q is miserable” gets sympathy, but “playing against SWFs is miserable” just gets responses like “you can’t punish people for playing with friends”
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579605#Comment_3579605
They aren't contradictory in their respective contexts, and you're attributing them both to "survivors" when that's not really how this works.
SWFs don't need to be nerfed, but more importantly, they shouldn't be nerfed. There are a number of reasons for this, I've already touched on a few in this thread.
At the same time, the specific differences between SWF and solo queue can make the latter role kinda miserable at times. That doesn't necessarily mean they're substantially, ridiculously weaker in a strict balance sense, but it does mean that their quality of life is a lot lower. You're stuck running specific perks you might not want to just to have basic info, you're rolling the dice on whether your teammates even care about playing altruistically, and you can't coordinate important tactics on the fly. Some of this can't be fixed, but some of it can.
There's also the other reason to shrink the gap between solo queue and SWF, which is that the closer those two groups are to one another, the more "survivor" can be a coherent role that can actually be balanced. Right now, and especially in the game's past, there was not one group that BHVR had to balance, there are and were three. Killer, solo queue, and SWF. Changes affect those latter two differently.
It only seems like a contradiction because you're conflating a few arguments, too. People point out the sheer number of casual and unskilled SWF specifically when other users start talking about SWF as this unstoppable juggernaut of imbalance wreaking havoc on the health of the game, which isn't true. People then talk about shrinking the gap between the two for the previous two reasons mentioned, while commenting on the strength difference that does exist.
And when do we get to the part where it's miserable for many killers to go against SWFs that are making voice comm callouts? Survivors get buffs to make solo q less miserable, but killers never anything to make it less miserable to face SWFs that are using voice comms for competitive advantage.
And that's the problem with this double standard. It gets to be used as an excuse to give quality of life updates for survivor.... but killers still haven't gotten their first announced quality of life update, because it's so much less important than all the survivor updates are.
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I just wish we would be consistent on the solo q versus SWF thing. Because usually this happens...
1) Survivors complain that BHVR needs to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF, because solo q is miserable.
2) Survivors tell us that SWFs don't need to be nerfed, because there isn't a big difference between most solo q and most SWFs.
Can we please pick 1 or 2.... but not pick both at the same time???????
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@coco_shotz said:
Those of you defending UW show what side you play and how biased you are. Both these perks are problematic because neither requires any real effort. You can't justify searching a locker and having a scream effect in your terror radius for 30 seconds and try to consider that better than MFT. Lockers are more than plentiful on maps and it's not a big time frame to open one and get info on anywhere from 2-4 survivors at a time. Seriously y'all need to learn that everything goes both ways and if you wanna cry MFT is busted (which it is) go ahead, but you aren't entitled to acting as if UW isn't just as problematic.
MFT was problematic because it gave a haste effect with too much of an uptime.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578859#Comment_3578859
they still are one giant blob of the same color. the only difference now is that colors are a bit nicer looking. green tint used to be the color of autohaven maps. I don't see any issues with hawkin map. the map bring back great nostalgia.
I really don’t know how anyone can say the new maps are just “a bit nicer looking”. Look how bad these screenshots are, of what maps used to look like. I can’t even tell what color most of the objects are supposed to be, because they’ll all drowning in a super saturated color filter.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
Noooooo,stop the "MAKE EVERY MAP GREY" syndromeee. Old Macmillan was so blue and pretty in the color department and now it's "natural" and boring. Same for Red Forest. It's a fine tint
@jesterkind said:
Huh? Why?
I get wanting to remove the tint from something like Borgo, because that actually makes a difference to the killer's ability to track survivors, but Hawkins' green tint isn't affecting anything like that. It's just a neat visual gimmick for the map, there's no problems it's causing.
The "neat gimmick" looks cheap and tacky. If BHVR wants to show off the upside down by having spores float around, that's fine. But having my screen alternate back and forth between normal tint and super green glow, makes the map feel like a dance club.
The random "upside down" parts don't even make sense. In the show, the characters are either in the upside down, or they aren't, and the only exceptions might be the areas directly next to a portal. But this map randomly decides that parts of random hallways count as the upside down, because reasons?
The worst part of "long ago" DBD are the super saturated glowing effects that the maps were back then. Many maps were literally just one giant blob of the same color glow. We don't need that effect back in the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578338#Comment_3578338
hawkin is the type of map with infinity pallet loops where you can pre-drop and go in circles. if you tried to play any of the pallets, they were unsafe such that killer could easily hit you.
what made map killer sided is how claustrophobic the map was. because generator could spawn in rooms and in hallways, it was REALLY easy for survivor that are looping to run into each other on generators. when survivor would play the map, you would see most survivors work on that 2nd floor safe gen on far end while everyone else was experienced bloodbath in the center map. camping hook was deadly on hawkins. I usually start working on 3rd floor gen because it was risky gen that is difficult to complete as you would have ignore any TR notifications from bottom floor. if the killer goes up to 3rd floor then you would almost certainly take an opening hit and fall through the hole making your chase with killer way harder.
That's assuming the survivors aren't in a SWF, the survivors aren't running anything that can aura read nearby teammates, the survivors aren't just casually aware of which generators are being working on... and the survivors aren't just running away to hide when the visual terror radius happens. And that's assuming that If a repairing survivor hides while the chased survivor passes by a generator with progress, that the chased survivor doesn't have the common sense to take the chase far away. It's also assuming the killer isn't tunneling, because if the killer is tunneling then they might not care if they see someone else running away from a generator.
People should also remember the upper floor on this map is sometimes a boil over nightmare for killers, if there isn't a hook on the stairs. And the small upper floor in one of the side rooms (with the generator) can also be a boil over nightmare for killers.
And there are so many pallets, so survivors will just keep predropping them, and even if the pallets are unsafe, it's still not good for the killer to keep walking around the pallets.
And when a killer tries to walk a survivor to a hook, and the path to the hook passes by multiple pallets, and the killer wonders if they are supposed to just walk around every pallet along the path.
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Why on Earth was this map re-released before being rebalanced? This was one of the most miserable maps, with it's outdated broken loops, and it didn't get updated?
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Singularity fails at their entire killer concept. We were told survivors would have to think or worry about grouping together against this killer….. but in reality survivors are encouraged to group together for altruistic EMPs, and survivors can bypass the bipod spreading mechanic by working on opposite sides of the same generator.
1) EMPs need to be nerfed so they don’t remove pods on teammates.
2) Remove the line of sight requirement from biopod spreading, or do something else so that biopods are guaranteed to spread when multiple survivors are repairing the same generator.
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@Ryuhi said:
Seasonal events always tend to help one side or the other more.
The anniversary event was pretty unanimously killer sided with the telepathic pallet breaking and bloodlust instadowns.
It was SWF sided, because the SWFs that would help each other altruistically in chases, would altruistically use event powers for someone else being chased.
Have you ever seen a Singularity chase where the survivors altruistically chain together multiple EMPs in the same chase? Imagine that, but with event powers. And SWFs were sure to purposely loop through the safest windows (i.e. garden of joy) because survivors blocking those windows was extra awful for the killer.
The main difference is that the anniversary event required group coordination to break (so the brokenness wasn't seen as often), and this Halloween event can be broken by solo q.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3577094#Comment_3577094
BHVR said this rework is supposed to "make Twins more fun to play", but they also said they want to "address Twins slugging", and I'm not sure how both those statements are supposed to happen at the same time.
yeah that does not make any sense. Like i said, they could just scrap the whole idea of pure slugging killer and just give twin's ability to switch victor's position with Charlotte position. With that, you can chase someone and when you down someone, you switch Victor with Charlotte like a teleport. After that you hook like a normal killer. with that type of change, twin's just becomes your average killer with chase power that hooks people.
BHVR might nerf slugging, buff some other part of Twins, and tell us "Twins should be more fun to play", even if the rework clearly makes Twins less powerful than they currently are. Or the other fear is BHVR will fix Twins, but there will be so many survivor complaints, that BHVR will backlash with nerfs, and Twins will end up being less powerful than they currently are.
That is a possibility to nerf slugging. I do not think they will do that. one of issues with survivor is gen-rushing. coordinate swf-teams can finish all 5 gens in 5-6 minutes. Slugging is one only ways for killer to comeback from 4 swf man 5-6 minute gen-rush with no perks or items. gen-rushing on survivor is really easy and very reliable. Slugging on other hand for killer is opposite. It is unreliable strategy with a lot of risk associated with it. So even if they nerf it by giving you base-kit unbreakable, you simply lose any chance to comeback vs high-tier teams as killer. your probability to slug 4 people are already not very high to begin with but now those teams become a 100% loss.
I don't think twins has power-level problem. I do not think killer needs any changes. Maybe you could improve some of add-on's but twins has some decent add-on. they have toy sword which rare charge time reduction add-on and they have two of those movement speed add-on that increase victor's m/s. they also have that weird iri silencing cloth add-on that gives you undetectable. that is at least 4 usable add-on's. functionally i do not see any issue with them. their problem is that the gameplay strategy(slugging) behind twins is not fun for killer to play.
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If i were attempt to try to improve slugging for killer. these would be my 3 major idea's.
#1
-When a survivor is picked up from dying state to injured state, they gain 10 second of haste and 10 seconds of endurance. The corresponding perk "Soulguard" increases duration by 8 seconds for both effects.
Reason: This is prevent killer from hitting the survivor when your teammate pick you up in front of the killer.
#2
-When a slugged survivor is healed/pick up from dying state to the injured, you lose 10% of total max bleed out timer. If your bleed out timer is less 24 seconds. it is set to 1 second after being picked up. as long they are being healed, their bleed out timer will stay paused at 1 second. A survivor who is put into dying state at 1 second will automatically be mori'd by the killer.
Reason: The idea behind this is that when a killer downs multiple survivors, survivors performing healing action gradually lose their bleed out timer depending how many times they have been downed. On average, i would expect you to need to go down survivor around 3 or 4 times before you reach critical state where your bleed out timer is less then 60 seconds. Similar to hook-states, when you have less then 60 seconds, this will be intense moment for survivor where you might die to bleed out should you reach this point in the match for slugging. This is very similar to being on Death hook on survivor for slugging. This change also bring an insight to how I would incorporate mori's into the base game for killer. You can still use regular offering to mori survivors on 3rd hook-state.
#3
-Scourge hook is now a base-kit mechanic. When the match begins, 4 random hooks become scourge hook. When a killer performs a hook action on scourge hooks, the highest progress generator explodes and regresses for 15% of the total progression. This does not begin regression the generator. The corresponding perk "Scourge hook: Pain Resonance" regression value decreased from 25% -> 10%. The perk retains old functionality. it consumes 1 token to deal an additional 10% regression and begins regressing the generator.
Reason: One concern I have with attempting to make slugging more relevant for killer is that I do not killer to always slug. In order to keep killers to still continue hooking survivors. there need be some change that makes killer want to keep hooking survivors. one way to do that is to increase reward for hooking. a very popular perk that is often used by killer is pain res. When a killer sees a scourge hook, they will be more likely to perform a hooking action because it rewards them with generator regression.
that concludes end of my major ideas for how i would approach slugging. I would likely also perhaps add something like an mid-game collapse where if all remaining survivors are put into dying state, a 40 second timer begins. when timer reaches 0, all survivors in the dying state are mori'd by entity. if a survivor uses unbreakable, no mither, soulguard or boon:exponential, the timer disappears. This has little significance in terms of gameplay. the goal is to skip killer from having to find all survivors on the floor to hook them and to end match quicker.
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I have no clue what BVHR strategy with twins and slugging. One of the idea they have had in the past is to make survivor's recover slower but give them base-kit unbreakable. that idea likely works but unbreakable would have to be much slower then what was tested. they tested 45 seconds unbreakable. I would recommend 60-80 seconds. their idea does work however it makes survivor gameplay very slow because survivor will be on the floor for a very long time. I am not sure how fun it is for survivor to stay on the floor for that length gameplay period. I do not think that many players that play survivor enjoy being on the floor for that long. it is up to bvhr to figure how they want to conduct that gameplay. from the changes they have done, I think they want to avoid this gameplay. that is why twin has received no changes yet as they have not figured out how they want this gameplay to work.
My problem is I don't understand if "address slugging" refers to buffing Twins so they aren't forced to slug as often, or if "address slugging" means nerfing Twins so survivors can't be slugged as often.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576254#Comment_3576254
well yeah, survivor can hold-w from charlotte. once they're past 40 meter radius. The chase could be 20 second long but because killer has to walk 25 seconds to get to the slugged survivor. your wasting 45 seconds+10 extra seconds just to put the survivor on the hook. If your chases are like 40 seconds long then every hook is like 70-80 seconds. that is incredible time inefficient for the killer.
they could change her design by giving her special ability where you can switch positions with twins and victor. that would solve problem however i almost feel like their design with twins is intentional such that they want killer to perform slugging gameplay with twin's. The problem is that pure slugging is impractical in dbd because survivor takes 4 minutes to die. an optimized team can constantly pick each other for 5+ times before anyone has any risk of dying and finish all gens. hook is such superior form of killing the survivor that almost no killer bothers to kill survivor that way. it is too high risk of strategy. you will either 4k or 0k's if you only slug. as a result, even twins has to hook because of how inefficient slugging is.
to solve that 25 second of walking per hook+10 second of hooking someone, the way to slug with twins is to reduce the number of hook-states to 3. that way, you only need pick survivor 2-3 times and put them on a hook. the way to do that is to scouting the weak-links on the team and tunneling weakest link on the team. once you get the game into 3vs1, you only have injure all 3 survivor then use victor's bloodhound find all survivors. in 3vs1, it is harder for survivor to pick each other because you can intercept the pick-up and if successful, you get 2 survivors on the floor. Survivors have 1 less person that can heal and you have 1 less person to keep track of. once you find 3rd survivor, you win by just chasing survivor last survivor and 1 hooking everyone. By 1 hooking everyone, you skip 25-35 seconds of manually hooking survivors. Twin's has inherent advantage that they can be in two places at once, so once you down 2 survivors, you can camp with victor on one survivor and use Charlotte to camp other survivor until remaining player shows up. it is super stressful to play because you are playing on thin ice. your early game is atrocious because you have terrible time efficiency with hooking and your late game is super stressful because you need chain your downs just right to close out the match before survivors finish last gen. This is a summary of Twin's gameplay.
to answer why nobody plays twins. you have to look at gameplay. slugging has no gradation. it is way too high risk vs reward. As a result, you need improvise the gameplay by tunneling and using hooks then slug at the correct time. I assume people dislike discrete tunneling off-hook gameplay that twins has to do in early game and they dislike the whole slug remaining 3 survivors to net wins. If the slugging gameplay was more stream-lined, then you would not need to tunnel. you would be able to play the game normally by chasing survivors normally. after one particular survivor get put into dying state 3-4 times then the survivor would be at risk of bleed out where you would get 1 kill from bleed out. Eventually you would naturally get a 3vs1 without hooking such that you could slug remaining 3 survivors to close out the match. This would result in much smoother twins gameplay experience now that your not focused to hard-tunnel to make your slugging strategy effective. Unfortunately, i do not think that they want this type of bleed out gameplay to be effective so they're hesitating to change anything regarding slugging for twins to play properly. you can guess that when slugging is stream-lined for twins, other killer might try to slug as well. Slugging is not suppose to be better than hooking. Hooking should always be more rewarding and fastest method to kill however the way slugging is now is that it is far too ineffective to slug to the point where you are forced to use hooking system to make slugging system effective. they need to make partially effective to slug. slugging should not be dominate strategy. slugging should be more of side-strategy that you can do to get bleed out but it should be worse then hooking itself from time-efficiency standpoint. you need to be good enough that twins can use it to win but not too strong that every killer just slugs everyone and ignores hooking. that tough balance task for bvhr. it is a big gameplay change.
I'm just super worried about the whole twins rework. BHVR said this rework is supposed to "make Twins more fun to play", but they also said they want to "address Twins slugging", and I'm not sure how both those statements are supposed to happen at the same time.
BHVR might nerf slugging, buff some other part of Twins, and tell us "Twins should be more fun to play", even if the rework clearly makes Twins less powerful than they currently are. Or the other fear is BHVR will fix Twins, but there will be so many survivor complaints, that BHVR will backlash with nerfs, and Twins will end up being less powerful than they currently are.