Carpemortum
Carpemortum
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@The_Bogeyman So are you commenting to add to the discussion? Or are you just here to try and stir up drama?
Im well aware people are going to complain about things regardless if they complained the exact opposite argument moments before. Im simply stating it now, so when it happens, it's documented as such.
"Oh, you say Legions too powerful now? (insert link) remember when everyone said they would be useless?"
This community does it on every single piece of upcoming changes or new perks.
Which is exactly why I made this post.
Also, controversial trash? Nah, people complained about them before live, and kneejerk reactions, and changes, led us to the moonwalking exploits that we have currently. People complained about "All legions just moonwalk or tunnel and its no fun" and how boring it is to try and live against a legion who does these things. They announced changes to address that, and others complaints about them being "not fun", some good, some questionable, some unnecessary, and now people are saying they'll be too useless. Without actually seeing how the changes work.
They were never trash. They just weren't Nurse/Billy tier.
The only trash thing about them is how people would bully people simply for playing them, or DC against them because "omg I cant just run in circles against this killer".
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@jackmadrox Ah, I wasn't here when Freddy happened. Just trying to put logic to people who want the world their way all the time.
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@PigNRun Oh I forgot wraith and pig can track survivors after hitting someone, or make people bleedout. Wait, Pig and wraith can vault pallets too now?
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@Condorloco_26 The difference in using it or not would be that the first hit is almost guaranteed, as the speed increase on top of the 115% s nigh impossible to run from. You don't have to chase for the first hit.
It starts your chase with them injured.
If they manage to get away from you before you hit them, chances are they go to a pallet, yes? You would be able to jump that pallet, and hit them, starting the chase in a much better spot than most other killers.
Sloppy butcher affects healing, not mending. If you stay injured, you dont hit the ground. Only if you have Deep Wounds.
Legions power does farm more for you than what perks can in relevance to how their power affects chases. Which is the entire point.
Not to mention that IF there is another survivor in your terror radius, you can hit one, leave them, and start a chase with a second, free injured, survivor.
But CarpeMortum, if I leave the first one, theyll just mend and leave.
Exactly. Even if one "gets away" with Deep Wounds, and you chase another, thats 2 survivors not getting work done, as opposed to 1.
Overall, Legion is still going to be useable, and unique. Just not as exploitable.
TL;DR: Not using Legions power would be detrimental. Even if you think the benefits to the power are almost useless, they give you a better shot than simply not using them.
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No, you paid to play the game, and in its ToU I GUARANTEE there's a part that says "content is subject to change" which you agreed to.
There will not be refunds for changing variables on a part of the game, simply because some don't agree with it.
Beyond that, the changes are
A- Not as bad as people want them to be and
B- Not even SEEN how they work in a game, just on paper.
So how about we wait a few weeks and see how things shake up.
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@Dwight_Fairfield It wont tick down while in killers TR, not just in chase.
All of deep wounds got it. So BT was affected.
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/422581#Comment_422581
Since you interpreted my words earlier, I'll interpret this the following way: you have no argumentation to counteract mine so you use an immature emoji and imaginary lol button.
😄 [2] LOL!
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@Condorloco_26 I have been on the forums long enough to see the posts appear, I saw the MoM threads pop up. Those aren't the only ones, and a lot of the same people hyping MoM were in there as well.
It's the communities immediate reaction. They did it with legion. They did it with Head On. They did it with MoM. And they will do it in the next release.
While I will admit MoM is another second chance perk with little requirement, it's not as bad as people want it to be, just as Head On wasn't.
You said people were 100% right on MoM. I asked "you mean like Head On" and you claimed nobody said it would be DS 2.0.
The fact is people did.
Legion unintentionally brought a change to BT that some see as better. It curbed the following of someone until they fell down to negate the perks effectiveness. It didn't necessarily NEED to be changed, but it helped with some of the tunneling.
Those perks not working on mending is like Wake Up! not waking you up. The design and logic just isn't sound. Same reason Snap Out Of It DID work for nurses previously.
The "new" BT buff that is happening, is only a slight buff, if really a buff. What it DOES do, however, is stop people using moonwalking to exploit the chase pausing the bleedout timer.
So i'll take a slight BT "buff" to help mitigate cheesey exlpoit tactics.
Lastly, Legions power isn't useless. There will supposedly be addons to let you down with Feral Frenzy, and it still allows you to vault, tag multiple people, and keep people busy while you chase someone else. Plus with the 115% speed, you don't have to RELY on using just the power and exploits to down people.
I feel like everyone is freaking out about changes that, while some could be adjusted a little, really only bring up the QoL of playing as AND against Legion.
Changes that we haven't even SEEN implemented.
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/422572#Comment_422572
The speed is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced, not slightly and I already showed why that is bad with the current Map layouts.
With how close pallets, windows and jungle gyms are located in relation to each other, faster speed and lower duration is much more preferable over slower speed and longer duration.
😄 [1] LOL!
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/422138#Comment_422138
This is exactly what I thought when I read the changes.
Who cares if the power lasts longer if you are slower? It just means you get to where you could before but it takes you longer to get there.
If in a game they give the choices between:
A) "You can run faster but not for as long."
or
B) "You can run for longer but not as quickly"
Almost 100% of the time anyone would choose option A. Because getting somewhere faster is always better than getting somewhere slower.
Thats the point. you can cover the same distance with the power, but at a slightly reduced speed, since you're not supposed to chase one person over and over. You get longer to find other targets.
They also increased base movement speed to counter this, so that if you DO chase one person, you can do so with an m1 and not waste time OR effort.
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@LCGaster I understand, it's all good.
But yeah, if they tweaked it to maybe losing a % on missed hit, or just being stunned like you ran out, I feel it would be better received.
not_queen did also say that she believes the new addon changes will allow you to down them with Feral frenzy, just not base mode.
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@SnakeSound222 It affects Deep Wounds, the status. Deep Wounds is applied by Feral Frenzy and Borrowed Time. So yeah, it affects both.
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@Condorloco_26 People ABSOLUTELY said Head On was going to be DS 2.0.
As soon as we had info, it was "now youll get hit walking past a locker to a hook", "oh great now killers get DS stunned mid chase" and a slew of other complaints.
Heres a couple:
Thoughts? I think it will be interesting. Perk: Head On:With the new DS nulled by a 60 sec countdown, is "Head on" more powerful perk to stun the killer?Head on new surviver perk - Wont this be as good as the current/old DS? I'd think so. Leave a comment below if you disagree link to video on the perk is here:Even one saying it's so good you won't even need to run it.
Now that this perk simply exists, you have the ability to use this perk to force killers to gamble whether or not you have it, or to take a longer route to a hook.Of course, some people were logical, and knew it wasn't so op, but this happens with every perk drop. People riot over something that won't be remotely as bad. Just like MoM.
I'm waiting for the next one so we can see MoM not get talked about.
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That change happened when Legion came out, now it's simply being adjusted to match Deep Wounds.
I assume it was to curb the cases of people triggering BT, then simply following them, even if being looped, until they hit the ground. While it is a second chance perk, it kind of made it more of a time wasting perk. The change somewhat resolved the issue.
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@Condorloco_26 Lol that's funny. 100% right? hahaha
Just like they were right when Head On was gonna be DS 2.0?
It's only "op" until the new complainable perk drops.
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@LCGaster said:
Another problem is also that the timer doesn't go down on Frenzy hit...WHAT?!
What are you supposed to do if there are no other survivors nearby?
Finish them at the increased 115% move speed? Not rely on a speed chase tactic?
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@LCGaster They also increased base movement speed, and frenzy duration.
Try not to omit balance changes when trying to make an update sound horrid.
The only issue I see is losing ALL of your power when missing a single hit.
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@Dreamnomad They announced a whole slew of upcoming Legion changes, in detail today. Most are alright, some are questionable. I don't have the link to it, but they've given us pretty specific details.
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@Sythalin So you have MASSIVE experience/practice with freddy.
Did you De rank on resets and start the climb from 15 or so WITH Legion?
Or just try him out at higher ranks.
I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just saying, I got to rank 5 with wraith, and at that point decided to try playing Spirit. Got my ass handed to me. Because I didnt have the gradual learning of Spirit while I climbed past harder survivors.
I can get 2-4 kills with legion in the ranks of 8-5 pretty easily, but I would't assume others are the same. Some are better and some are worse at it.
I would also like to say that I dont think that freddy is BAD. Just harder to manage and learn than most killers.
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@KingB Yeah thats what I was saying. If it was the only one it wouldn't be so bad, but considering how people could pair them together with the new TR change may be a bit excessive.
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By that logic, how is any killer different than any other killer other than move speed? If were talking explicitly about M1.....
Their powers.
@ricardo You mean you cant cheese them with your power. You can hit them, and follow up FASTER than previously. Given you save time not waiting for frenzy to come back multiple times, it's not that drastic of a time difference in downing someone.
@Supernaut No, they can still deal with loopers, just like every other killer already could. You just cant spam the ability and down someone after hopping the pallet.
I feel like being looped is a killer gameplay problem and not killer related. Break pallet immediately. No more loops.
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@Sythalin Catch back up at 115% normal killer speed, not slug mode. I agree they shouldn't lose ALL of the power on a single missed hit, but worse than freddy? LOL.
@TreemanXD Fair point, just sometimes I cant afford to sound ######### so visually it made it tolerable. Maybe I just switch to stridor altogether lol.
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@KingB True, given how many second chance perks are in game now, putting BT on a base timer would balance things a little better.
BT, MoM (as NOT OP as it actually is), Dead Hard put together could make a 2k into a 0k nightmare.
If the old timer was in place even with them possibly escaping with the other perks, they would eventually hit the ground.
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@TreemanXD Even the not seeing blood part? I felt that was a LITTLE much considering you already lost scratches. Although not running bloodhound DOES free up a perk slot. Maybe the new addons will include one that shows blood or scratches while in frenzy, like the spirit has.
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Wraith has stealth, speed boost out of stealth, addons that let him see through walls and gen progression.
Legion has survivor tracking built in, can make people waste time mending, can vault pallets, has addons to make bleedout and TR absurdly powerful.
Lots. There are lots of differences between the two.
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@KingB I get where you're coming from about the pre Legion BT, but that version was so much worse. Even if it felt more balanced, the way it worked ENCOURAGED tunneling. It turned into "I hit them, but they're not down yet? F that i'm just gonna follow them until they hit the ground."
At least with the bleedout change that attitude was curbed. Granted you can still tunnel, but if so you actually HAVE to catch up and land that second hit.
I think they should just give BT its own distance values, if withing X meters of killer it won't tick down. Keep it at what a chase distance is supposed to be. This way you cant negate Bleedout with moonwalking, but you also cant hide 25 meters away with no repercussions.
See how that works maybe as a nice middle ground.
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/422330#Comment_422330
Apples with bananas, deary. And if you're done with me, you really should stop replying to me.
You can elude to not saying it all you want hon, but when I ask you if its like X and Y, and you respond with, apples and bananas, that's exactly what you said. I just inferred the rest. With logical "if, then" conclusions based on our previous conversation on the matter.
I didn't put words in your mouth hon, don't accuse me of such things.
Everything I said was based on the previous statement, all made possible by responding to my Exploiters and Hook-rushed with apples and bananas. confirming they are two different situations.
Thanks again though.
You don't have to say that you see them differently, because we know you don't. Which was my entire point.
OFC you'd jump to the conclusion of me "putting words in your mouth".
What's malicious is the defending of exploits under some feigned ignorance of a difference. Or being extremely biased towards one side.
Or telling people things aren't comparable without explaining why that is the case, when in reality, comparing two killers with movement speed powers isn't as ridiculous as you want it to be.
What CAN be said as not comparable, is HOW they negate pallets and vaults. Not how FAST they can.
But whats malicious is when people get so hung up on being right and proving others wrong that their original argument on the topic doesn't even make sense.
So let me do something benevolent, since you believe me to be so malicious. I wont respond to your nonsense anymore, on any post. Because seeing you try to hide behind these shoddy defense responses with no actual input is making me feel bad for you.
Trying to explain changes to to biased people from an unbiased standpoint is like comparing apples and ######### oranges...
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@KingB That's a decent, albeit relatively situational, point. That assumes that the killer hits them, chases them but loses them, and either does not search the area well enough and leaves, or searches to find nobody, as they're hiding in the TR and not mending.
It also assumes they're not running whispers or stridor, already, or in response to the change for just this. The old "perks for every issue" thing.
I would assume it wont be used like that in the endgame, as most people take the hit and run as far away as possible, towards the exit gates.
But, let's be honest, if a killer loses track of someone they're chasing, late game or not, and they believe they have borrowed time, most good killers won't waste time searching for that one person. They'll do a sweep if they lose LoS, and move on, as to not get hung up on one person and let 3 others run rampant.
While I can't argue that there isn't a situation that it is NOW slightly more useful, it being unable to be moonwalk exploited is a far better change than this perceived buff is. The buff, if it can actually be considered that, is minimal compared to the QoL fix it's gotten. It also still does it's job effectively. It is intended to prevent tunneling on an unhook.
Pre-Legion BT would be so much worse. It would go back to killers hitting you and jsut following you around. Which is what the timer was supposed to prevent in the first place.
But I do again have to say, it's a small situation I hadn't fully considered, even as situational as it may be.
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@DocOctober Oh I was done trying to help you understand logic on a different post in which you were rambling.
But now I'm asking if you can see how those things are different.
And by you saying apples and bananas, I assume so.
Which means you agree that people who exploit moonwalk for BT, are different than those who get rushed?
Which means you accept that it only affects the exploiters. Thanks. FINALLY a way to make you see. sad it took you trying to call someone out on the same kind of thing to understand the hypocrisy in your arguments.
Glad you finally understand hon.
Which leads me to believe you ARE one of the biased/exploiters.
<3
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/422263#Comment_422263
You're comparing apples with bananas. That's called false equivalence.
Kind of like comparing Exploiters of BT mechanics to people who get hook rushed as if it was the same thing?
<3
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It's not a buff unless you're a moonwalker exploiting the chase mechanic.
It still functions as it should. Unless you follow backwards to negate the perk completely. Which is an exploit.
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@TreemanXD And not being able to see blood in frenzy. It was really their only tracking since you already couldn't see scratch marks.
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@DocOctober I'm trying to be but you just won't quit.
"The increased regular speed is not an argument, because it doesn't apply to Feral Frenzy."
Then why mention it will be hell to chase someone "WHILE SLOWER" as you said.
" the Survivor is still healthy and safe and sound behind a pallet or a window or at a jungle gym, all things that are abundant on the maps and easy to reach."
You mean like against every other 115% killer?
GTFO here.
I'm done responding to your nonsense. You make arguments with points that are inconceivably stupid, and then fall back to a different point? Right.
Bye hon.
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@DocOctober You mean on the forum where we heard about the changes IN THE FIRST PLACE? Right. Next absurd retort?
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@BigBubs I didn't say they'd be mad he could 4k. I meant genuinely become more powerful than all these knee jerk reactions think is possible. It should be funny to see.
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@DocOctober Hon, pease stop acting like those edgelords on YT. You think outside the box more than a developer but can't see how a BT change isn't to punish killers?
You try to break down time as an equation. But lets just talk reality.
They RAISED base speed. You can chase without frenzy normally now.
They LOWERED frenzy speed. You can't chase AS fast in frenzy. ( You shouldnt chase in frenzy anyways. You should use it to get a first hit and follow up or tag a nearby survivor)
They RAISED the duration of frenzy. Not the distance you can travel. You could arguably cover the same distance as before this change, but at a slightly slower rate.
Your scenario is a tad flawed.
" except for that it'll now take longer for Legion to catch up to the Survivor due to the lowered speed"
You don't chase in frenzy, you chase normally, which has had it's speed increased.
That is where your scenario breaks down.
Besides all of this refuting your absurd points, you say you don't see how Im okay with the changes if I play both sides. I do, and I'm okay with MOST of the changes. It's funny that the real change issues (losing all frenzy in one miss, no blood) isn't what you want to talk about. You hold onto your false logic and try to call ME biased?
Nah, I'm out of this one too hon. You can say you think outside of the box, but thats not exactly hard when the box is so far tipped to one side it falls over and opens.
<3
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@DocOctober Im gonna be done debating/arguing with you at this point. It's obvious you take the info I give you and try to fit it to what you want to be true.
A workaround is a workaround, right. but when you use a workaround, to gain an advantage, or otherwise bypass intended mechanics through a design flaw, its called an exploit. That shouldn't happen.
You've given examples of why you think the change punishes the innocent, and i've shown you how that's not true, but you want to contuinue to rant and fall back onto thse kind of arguements : "It is a horror game for Entity's sake, Survivors should fear the Killer and not give them a big [BAD WORD] you and just do whatever they please without the fear of any repercussions thanks to the umpteenth safety net Perk. "
When in reality, as Ive said, that perk is situational, and does it's job. the ones upset are BIASED OR UNWILLING TO PLAY WITHOUT BYPASSING INTENDED MECHANICS.
I agree it should have simply stayed a timer, and not bleedout. But when it changed to bleedout it gave a slight buff to escape chance, as the killer could simply follow you around until you die in front of them.
Killers Saw this as OP for some reason, and decided to say "######### the chase mechanic, ima walk backwards and get the old results".
Dev's realized this was not intended for BT or legion, and changed it to TR so that those people in question could no longer exploit design flaws to gain unintended results.
As I said originally, Im done debating this with you. You've tried to paint me as a survivor main, throw petty arguements about and refuse to either see logic or adtmit that its an exploit tactic that needed to end. So good luck. Have fun out there. But please try to learn to take things from both perspectives, and not just your own.
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Is it just me, or are there A TON of brand new accounts posting about how "horrible" the Legion changes are?
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@DocOctober Becuase most of the changes aren't as bad as people want to think.
The only real issues are the full drain on one missed attack, and not being able to see blood in frenzy anymore, imo.
I don't even mind the slightly reduced frenzy speed given that their base is faster AND frenzy lasts longer.
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@DocOctober No, moonwalking to workaround Deep wounds was an exploit, which is why its been changed. The pause timers were there to prevent you bleeding out WHILE being chased.
It wasn't a workaround or a counterplay, it was an exploit in design flaws that caused a perk to basically not exist in the match.
As I said before, Moonwalking is fine, use it to mindgame, use it to sneak up on people with no red stain. But using it to make the game THINK youre NOT in a chase when you clearly are is an exploit.
BT being activated by hook rushers happens. If you could simply say "nah i don't want to let your BT mean anything because im not a camper and dont deserve it" and moonwalk around it, you would be negating the entire perk and its activation simply because you don't want to deal with hook rushes?
This change is perfectly fine, only fixes issues that were being exploited, and the only ones truly upset about it are either extremely biased, or the ones using said exploit.
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@DocOctober Im a survivor main now? Hon, I play both sides. So please keep your bias bullshit at home.
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@DocOctober Are you serious right now?
As it is RIGHT NOW If you are in a chase, it wont tick down...
From the BT page: After unhooking a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the unhooked Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound Status Effect.
Deep Wounds Applied By: Borrowed Time, Feral Frenzy.
Deep wounds DOES NOT TICK DOWN WHILE IN A CHASE.
Which is why moonwalking around it is an exploit.
This changes nothing in your scenario...You can loop killers with BT RIGHT NOW.
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@DocOctober Okay, help me understand. How does Borrowed Time, NOT ticking down while in your TR, punish a killer who is going to chase them LEGIT when hook rushed?
It's not. It only affects you if you cheese or let them leave you and sit in your TR to mend. But guess what....If you let them go, downing them wasn't your intention to begin with. Also, pre change they could sit in your TR and mend without going down.
Literally the only change is that it wont tick in TR as opposed to Chases. Meaning if youre looking at them, and not moonwalking, it doesn't punish you.
So please help me understand why killers who dont moonwalk to exploit borrowed times countdown are punished.
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@DocOctober Right. They absolutely do. But that itself doesn't change how the BT change ONLY punishes Moonwalkers trying to bypass the timer. If stupid survivors go for an unhook, and BT goes off, nothing has changed. Unless you rely on walking backwards to circumvent the point of BT. If you hit them and chase them normally/as intended or leave them alone, this change has affected nothing in your gameplay.
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@DocOctober They mean (I believe) the people who use moonwalking to counter Borrowed Times entire purpose. Campers just seem to be the ones that do it the most.
Nothing about this punishing campers who Moonwalk exploit BT timers affects people who have stupid altruistic survivors. It doesn't punish or prevent anyone or thing other than the same Moonwalk exploit on legion. That issue is (likely) why they changed it to be TR and not Chase dependent.
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@DocOctober I commented this over there. after a little thought, BT should be so bad with this change. probably better.
At first I agreed with it being buffed. But now that I think about it, it's only a slight change.
When BT procs, Killers either choose to follow up and end you, or move on. This won't change that very much. If they chase you, it wouldn't tick anyways. If they leave you, whether you're in their TR or not, you can mend because you're not being actively chased.
Im sure a few situations could be replicated to make the "new buff" to BT seem far more powerful, but I don't think it will have the same impact as the same change being applied to legion. It shouldn't disrupt much.
If anything, it will help against the campers who would Moonwalk to end BT after your team managing to save you within their TR. They will have to actively attack you, not just bs in your general direction.
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@DingDongs At first I agreed with it being buffed. But now that I think about it, it's only a slight change.
When BT procs, Killers either choose to follow up and end you, or move on. This won't change that very much. If they chase you, it wouldn't tick anyways. If they leave you, whether you're in their TR or not, you can mend because you're not being actively chased.
Im sure a few situations could be replicated to make the "new buff" to BT seem far more powerful, but I don't think it will have the same impact as the same change being applied to legion. It shouldn't disrupt much.
If anything, it will help against the campers who would Moonwalk to end BT after your team managing to save you within their TR. They will have to actively attack you, not just bs in your general direction.
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I can't wait until Legion actually starts destroying people and they call for nerfs. "Legion changes were too OP rEvErT tHeM NAO!!!"
How about we discuss the changes, and wait to see the actual repruscussions, instead of attacking, degrading, and berating the developers and other players over the decisions made.
In the end you paid to be ALLOWED to play the game. You're not entitled to anything staying any specific way. If they change something, and you don't like it, yelling and rioting and attacking them isn't going to fix anything. It only makes the community worse. Simply walk away and stop supporting them if you don't agree with their decisions to the point of anger.
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@Kilmeran Ah I understand. Well, good to see a familiar face with actual game industry insight (video or tabletop doesn't matter in terms of business practice imo) that wasn't an ass!
Also, yeah, this change...had potential to work. A short stun. or ending frenzy and needing a full bar to use it. But to completely drain it on ONE hit and ALSO require a full power gauge....is gonna be rough to see how it works.
Granted, it's still a (if you don't miss) free hit to start a 115% chace, but if you do miss it, that's a bit more ground to make up and wait for.
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@se05239 I believe not_queen just stated in another thread that she believes the new addon reworks will allow you do do so, just not base frenzy.