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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294655#Comment_3294655
In Hens video he's leaving the gens long enough for the survivors to work on them - he goofs off standing still watching a crouched survivor's aura until they move and just shaking no at a healthy survivor with a flashlight. If a killer knows that survivors can avoid insta kill from just attempting to work on the 3 gen until 30 minutes is up they won't be as forgiving and will try harder to prevent survivors from touching gens.
Guarding the doors with unlimited time from 4 survivors is difficult but if the survivors are limited on time because EGC has started it's much easier - it's why killers tend to throw out the idea that EGC should start when the last gen is completed instead of when the exit gate is opened. Just toss on No Way Out instead of No Where to Hide so you know which door they went to first, the doors get blocked and survivors have even less time during EGC to open the exits.
It's also assuming all 4 survivors stuck around - that none decided to offer themselves up or DC because they didn't want to be stuck in another gen stall match for 30 minutes and maybe escape but probably not. The 30 minute gen stall plus possibility of insta kill and the limited time to open a door because EGC are things that will discourage survivors from wanting to play the unfun match.
You can bandaid fix the problem with 30 minute matches but it is going to increase the amount of killers playing 3 gen stall matches and it's going to increase the amount of survivors quitting (DC or offering themselves up to killer) because they don't want to be in a 30 minute gen stall match.
This bandaid fix does nothing to fix the issue and there are better solutions like fixing gen rng, adjusting perks that are an issue with 3 gens (this is probably the easiest for BHVR), have more gens available to work on when 1 gen is left, if a killer damages same gen dozen times without hooking anyone a random gen on other side of the map becomes available to work on. All the other solutions wouldn't require the match to be stalled for 30 minutes and would end the match much faster. They also encourage progressing games instead of stalling them.
I hadn't realized that the gates wouldn't be open for this End-Endgame Collapse happening.
Still the solution is simple, extend the EEGC timer by a minutes. I'll edit the OP if I still can.
Yes they should fix map RNG and and fix the perks but I still think this should be added to the game since no game of DbD should last an hour.
No one in their right mind wants games of DbD to last an hour. It's ridiculous to defend it.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294640#Comment_3294640
"However, I don't think this strategy should be bannable."
If DBD gets changed so that you're not allowed to drag the game out for the purpose of winning then it makes so many killers less viable. Any killer that relies on M1 to down is essentially garbage if you can run the gens in 4 minutes. Any team worth a damn will be able to loop you for 4-6 minutes. People hated playing against pop because 6-9 pops was 2-3 minutes longer to finish all the generators.
There is a part in Hens video where he says this is my side of the map and that side is yours. This reflects a poor game design element where we have come to a point where the killer must rely on 3 gen and tunneling tactics. Gens are too fast. toolboxes are too strong. We have too many perks that can rapidly make gens take less time.
The devs proclaimed that +10 seconds to generator completion time meant that killers don't need to use gen regression perks. Nothing could be further from the truth given all the ways survivors can rush gens.
I will be the first in line to ask for tunneling to be removed - as long as it applies to both sides. Survivors should not need to be tunneled out for the killer to have a chance to win. Generators should not be anywhere near as easy to tunnel out as they are now. It doesn't matter when you play Blight or Nurse as almost any combination of gens is a "3 gen" but on most of the other killers you must keep three gens close together if you want to try to guard them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294617#Comment_3294617
-"But at the same time everything a Survivor does is defended with "It's part of the game". This, however, doesn't translate to Killer gameplay."
Most people only really think about one side of the game in regards to fun and balance. And while this goes for both sides - most of the offenders I see are survivors (since mathematically survivors are 4/5ths of the players in any game).
It's nice to see that at least one person is looking at both sides of the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294386#Comment_3294386
If you do some searching you can find a recent game where CMWinter plays against a "comp drop" squad who stomp him on coal tower. He's a great player but he loves to play pig who becomes powerless at most loops. Do you remember how people were upset with the game before they relaxed MMR? Most people who got to a certain point were playing game after game against blight or nurse. Survivors need to be very careful or those will be the only killers that people bother to play.
It would be one thing if all the gens were a minimum distance so that any 3 gens was able to be defended by a regular movement speed killer. But that's not how the game is setup. SWF teams will almost always try to give the killer what my friend calls a "Y gen" which is the opposite of a three gen.
Killers should be able to "drag the game out" so they can have time to get kills. That's why slowdown/regression perks exist.
What Hens showcased and now others are doing are just dragging the game out not even trying to kill and then letting the game timer ending do the killing for them. This strategy should not be in the game at all. I don't care what killer you're using, there is no proper reason or excuse for a player to resort to this and they should not have the option to do so.
DbD is on its way to a 3 year low for number of players. The new meta really sucks and having games that can last an hour is not helping.
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- Speed up bloodwebs.
- Remove incapacitation from Eruption.
- Balance the gen regression perks with each other so we see all the regression perks and not just the same 3 over and over.
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Someone posted a "stop complaining..." thread about it!
Yay we've made it everyone!
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294611#Comment_3294611
It's not a win win for the survivors when it encourages an unfun problematic gameplay. It will result in more killers going for the 3 gen stall which will lead to more of these unfun matches. A shortened time makes it more appealing to killers because they won't have to wait as long for results and can move onto next match faster to repeat same tactic - 3 gen stall 8 survivors in an hour instead of 4, sounds awesome and not ruining more players game time at all. EGC starting without a door open is also appealing to killers since it is easy to prevent the two exits from being opened for 2 minutes - especially if some survivors have already been auto-killed for them.
Draw would encourage killers to actually secure a kill over guarding the 3 gen. What's the point of 3 gen stall for 30 minutes if you won't get kills as a result? Survivors won't get bored and ask to go next because the killer will be forced to commit to chase - if killer doesn't and just continues guarding 3 gen they basically have thrown the game for no BP and no kills, just wasting time which they shouldn't get rewarded for anyway.
BHVR does bandaid fixes because the playerbase is impatient and easily distracted. The bandaid fixes don't actually fix the issues making the game unfun. The bandaids just give the appearance they're trying to help while something else that's broken attracts the focus of complaints. With a bandaid fix the issue is still there, still unfun, and still needs an actual fix.
In Hens' video if EGC started after 30 minutes, no survivors would have gotten auto-killed and Hens would have struggled to get a 2k and probably have gotten less.
I would expect less than 10% of survivors to actually get auto-killed after 30 minutes with the lenient guidelines I set out in the OP. Those conditions are there just so the survivors have to try and not just hide the entire game. If anything, 250 seconds of gen time might even be too low.
I don't know what game you're playing if you think guarding 2 gates from 4 survivors is easy, it's not DbD, that's for sure. The survivors literally have to throw in that scenario for the killer to get a 4k even with the closest gate spawns possible. This is especially true because the stalling killer has devoted most if not their entire build to slowdowns which leaves little room for NWO, NOED, or other endgame perks and they are probably playing a less than S tier killer like Knight, Doctor or Legion. The killer resorted to a stalling strategy so their ability to even catch survivors is questionable. I bet their average kill rate would be below 25% for games lasting more than 30 minutes.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294552#Comment_3294552
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZXTTMSTEKHVB/image.png
Look at the game Hens played. He didn't refuse to kill anyone.
Stalling is not letting the game progress. If you actively go for chases and actually injure people and then rush back to generators - that's not stalling.
"there is 0 difference between a Doctor keeping everyone in Madness 3 without any attempt of downing them"
Using the Hens game as an example. He was getting downs and hits. He was not refusing to attack - which would be stalling.
I'd argue that Hens intentionally held that game hostage. His intention from even before the match started (he used the Dead Dawg offering for its 3gen spawn capability) was to try and hold 4 survivors in a match for an hour. There were multiple times when multiple survivors screamed from an Eruption proc and then were incapacitated for 25 seconds during which time he could have hooked the downed survivor and still have kept his 3gen. He chose not to, and he only got 1 hook the entire match.
However, I don't think this strategy should be bannable. In current DbD it is a valid strategy that can result in a 4k after an hour and there is no clear rule stating that this is against the rules.
I just don't think games of DbD should be able to even last an hour or this strategy shouldn't be viable at all.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294542#Comment_3294542
Your idea still benefits the killer using a problematic strategy. It sends the survivors to EGC giving them 2 minutes to unlock the doors, which the killer can now easily use to wait out the timer while guarding the doors. Toss on No Way Out and it makes it even easier. 30 minute stall matches will become the norm with a band aid fix like you're suggesting.
If you want a match to end after 30 minutes you could just have the game end in a draw - no one escapes or dies.
BHVR goes with band aid solutions because they get encouraged to use them with ideas like this. Continuing to not fix the problems in this game and instead do band aid fixes is why the game keeps becoming more and more unfun.
Currently, if a game lasts 60 minutes the killer wins by default as all survivors get insta-killed as the match ends.
My suggestion gives the survivors a chance to survive after 30 minutes of torture with a possible exciting completion. This is a win-win for survivors: not only do they never have to suffer for a full hour ever again, they also get a chance to survive. But somehow in your eyes this benefits the killer.
Ending the game in a draw is boring. If survivors don't have a chance to win outright then what point is there to stick around in the match and not just go ask the killer for death so they can go next?
BHVR goes with band-aid solutions because they're lazy. Encouragement has nothing to do with it. They shouldn't have needed to be encouraged to fix the hacking problem by their big content creators, it should have just just been part of the games development for the last 6 years.
Anyways I don't think there is any way for me to sway your mind and you're not going to sway mine.
Good day.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294495#Comment_3294495
The autokill after an hour is already benefitting killers doing the 3 gen stall like Hens, you're idea halves the time needed which encourages killers to continue doing it and hopefully get the time needed cut down further for easier auto-kills. It does nothing to discourage 3 gen stall games, it makes them more effective for the killer.
Auto-killing the survivors shouldn't be the go to fix for problematic game mechanics. Fixing gen rng, adding additional gens available to work on when one gen is left so there's more gens to keep track of when 1 gen is left, deactivating certain gen regression perks once one gen is left similar to how OTR/DS get deactivated once gens are completed. There's other ways to fix the problem that isn't "auto-kill the survivors because killer stalled the game with a 3-gen and wouldn't commit to hooking them."
You're still missing the entire point. The survivor would only get autokilled if they hid all game, in which case they don't deserve a chance to live. If a survivor put in the effort to get the gens done and only 1 gen was left, they would be afforded an opportunity to escape in EGC. 250 seconds of gen time is not a high bar to reach in a game lasting 30 minutes.
My idea would have the exact opposite effect of what you're saying. Are you just assuming survivors hide all game?
Killers can have a very successful time doing the 3 gen stall strategy because your average survivor (especially SoloQs) in DbD is not going to try once they realize they are in a very bad 3gen, especially if the killer has been camping it and have the right perks. Most of them are going to go to the killer and ask for death and I am there right beside them. Even if I last the hour I still lose. I do not want waste an hour on a game of DbD and I am will to hand-deliver myself to the hook for the killer to put me on it than suffer through that BS. That's just not healthy for the game.
Seriously, who wants a game of DbD to last an hour? Please point them out to me.
30 minutes is an acceptable maximum.
If survivors know they could try for half an hour and have a chance at escaping if the killer chooses to do this 3gen camping crap that is possible with current meta, they'd be more than likely stick it out until the end. That would be good for the game.
I make this sort of suggestion because I know my target; BHVR. This is the exact sort of band-aid solution BHVR is likely to implement. Yes I'd love to see them fix map and gen-spawning RNG, but I know that just isn't going to happen.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293462#Comment_3293462
That's 1 game in your lobbies compared to the many people that play this game. Anecdotal evidence isn't that strong
I love how whenever someone on this forum wants to defend something they often say "anecdotal evidence" as if that completely nullifies whatever point the person was trying to make.
Well guess what? It doesn't.
Dead Hard is still picked 28% of the time according to one aggregate site (you'd probably call this meaningless anecdotal evidence as well, I've been down this road before) and has the highest pick rate of all survivor perks.
Even on this forum there is consensus that Dead Hard is still the strongest exhaustion perk in the game. Only a few argue that Sprint Burst is stronger and literally no one is here saying that Balanced Landing, Head On, Lithe, Overcome or Smash Hit are stronger than Dead Hard.
Dead Hard is still top of the survivor meta. Period.
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@bm33 said:
Having the survivors auto-killed like that would just encourage killers to 3 gen and not commit to a chase even more often. You're rewarding that gameplay, not punishing it.
The survivors already get auto-killed after the 60 minute timer runs out, or at least it looks like it in the Hens video.
@HugTechLover said:
How would this encourage getting away from a 3 gen? So now you have to wait half the time for all the survivors to die? Lmao
My idea is not just cutting the game timer in half. It's a fully fleshed out idea meant to deal with multiple scenarios because neither side should have the option to stall the game out to get a win. It's horrible for the game.
With this solution stalling the game for 30 minutes would not be an automatic win for either side. As long as the survivors put in an effort to complete the gens (250s of gen time in the OP), they all get to take their chances in an Endgame Collapse. If the Entity found their efforts lacking, then they deserve instant death.
There has to be something there to make both sides try. Killers should not be able to get an automatic win for locking down a 3gen all game and survivors should not get an automatic win for hiding all game.
I wish I had more fun playing DbD. I'd be playing the game instead of coming up with suggestions to improve the game that no one bothers to actually read and will never get implemented.
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I am getting rather tired of it at this point. It's extremely frustrating committing to a chase vs a very good looper and they put you in a position where you have a split second opportunity to get that down. I swing, they scream as if they went down but soon I see them far away on their way to somewhere safe where I know I have to waste at least another 30 seconds to get the down.
Often I feel like I've lost the game in that instant as 2-3 gens have popped or are popping in the distance and I have absolutely no pressure to speak of. Almost always I have to give up the chase on that survivor and never commit to a chase on them again until their teammates are dead are dying. Often it's their teammates that die while the Dead Harder manages to escape. Heaven forbid I get a team of them, I might as well wait at the gate switch.
When I remember how I felt in those moments I don't blame killers for doing nasty crap like the 3gen strategy we have now.
I'm willing to be we have a very similar graph for Dead Hard now as we did pre-6.1.0. A solid slope up to probably 50% usage rate at top MMR.
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Wow, why does everyone here hate Among Us so much?
I don't really want to see Among Us in DbD either for an entirely different reason. I don't think Among Us would do itself any favors by tying itself to the nuclear toxic waste barge that is current era DbD.
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Honestly I would like less lore from DbD. The lore from recent years is just too much word vomit that seems to be written by a 6th grader.
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I've always thought a Big Daddy Bouncer skin for Billy would be awesome.
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When you see crap like this how can anyone argue that the new meta is better than the old meta.
This just didn't happen with Pop, Ruin & Undying. It wasn't possible because eventually the totems get cleansed and the killer had to get hooks to be able to Pop.
Now with Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption it's a very plausible strategy for many killers to hard camp a tight 3 gen and make it nigh-impossible for the survivors to win in any sort of timely fashion.
Knight, Nemesis, Doctor and Legion just to name a few all seem like extremely good candidates for this strategy.
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Isn't this just DbD working in Among Us?
I might have to pick up Among Us now and try this H&S mode since the base game mode never interested me.
Anything that can get me away from DbD would be a good thing.
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@NITRAS42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3290139#Comment_3290139
Survivors could not be a total dick to killers that clearly are on the struggle bus, who have meme addons or perks.
Agreed. I'm not teabagging killers at the exit gate. I just leave.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293490#Comment_3293490
Here's the thing. Balance is fractal.
Even if the perks were at 1% of each other (a nearly impossible goal, without making them ridiculously simple and similar), whichever perk is 1% ahead would be picked substantially more.
That's just how a meta works.
I disagree. Throwing around a three dollar word like fractal isn't going to convince me.
Maybe what you're saying is true for highly competitive eSports games but it's not true for DbD, for the most part. There are no leaderboards in DbD.
Most of DbD's players are casuals who likely don't even know what the meta is. They look at the perks, make comparisons and decide for themselves what they want to run. If perks were balanced they are less likely to stumble on the meta. Unless the player is getting destroyed, they are not going to go look up what the meta is. This is different than now where players will more easily identify Pain Res, Eruption and a few other perks as being better.
Here is a graph of recent perk usage from an aggregate data site. The first 4 perks on the left are Pain Res, Call of Brine, Jolt and Eruption.
If perks were more balanced, it would result in more builds being viable in games which would result in more perks being used and we would see more variation in perk usage. This would result in the graph flattening out.
Anyways, I doubt I can change your mind. Nice chatting with you.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293462#Comment_3293462
Perk categories and restrictions have been suggested before, but I think that would create an even more rigid meta. People would literally just pick whatever was currently considered the 'best' perk of each category, but with more restrictions on mixing and matching.
I don't know how you could think that. It's not based in logic, that's for sure.
If all the slowdown perks were close to equal to each other people would pick whatever suits their playstyle and not be forced to pick the meta because no perk would stand out or at least not stand so far out. They wouldn't feel like they have to choose Eruption or Pain Res because they are by far the best regression perks currently in the game.
If Ruin didn't have its regression rate nerfed along side it getting deactivated once a survivor dies, it would still have a decent pick rate because there are players that like its automatic regression without having to kick gens or use scourge hooks. But now the only people using Ruin are people that are returning to the game after a hiatus that didn't know it got nerfed hard enough to be a dead perk.
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I wouldn't be opposed to this if things like a slugging Starstruck Nurse or stalling Eruption killers didn't exist. I like having the ability to leave those games quickly without incurring a DC penalty.
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The answer is quite simple.
They want to complain.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/357926/so-when-is-the-killer-meta-changing
Okay, so.
Here's the thing. 'Meta' just means 'the right way to play the game at this point in time'.
There will always be a handful of perks that are considered 'better'. The higher your MMR, the more likely you are to see people running 'optimal' builds and the more rigid the meta is.
All you can do is shake it up from time to time.
This isn't helped by the fact that a lot of killer perks range from 'rubbish' to 'meh'. There's a reason nobody runs Grim Embrace, Furtive Chase etc.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293409#Comment_3293409
Most killers just want to win ASAP at higher MMRs. Very few are looking to make things deliberately miserable, they're just playing to what they believe is the optimal 'build'.
Also - not sure why you're making this an Us versus Them thing. A few months ago, they buffed Boil Over and you had so many survivor groups abusing it to become literally unhookable and stalling games out forever.
Hell, I have maybe 1 game a day where two survivors just hide the entire game to be annoying.
There are mean people on both sides.
"All you can do is shake it up from time to time."
What a horribly flawed way to look at maintaining game. Sadly I think BHVR agrees with you.
But they do have another, better option. The can try to balance the game. I know it's a shocking idea, but hear me out.
They could divide perks into categories and then try to balance the perks in those categories. In the slowdown category they could have easily done this in 6.1.0 but not overnerfing Ruin and Pop and not overbuffing Eruption, Overcharge and Call of Brine. For Exhaustion perks they could buff Balanced Landing, Smash Hit, etc to bring them in line with Dead Hard and Sprint Burst.
We'd see much more varied loadouts if BHVR took this approach. Unfortunately they appear to be controlling the meta so players have to buy licensed DLC to get meta perks. This is especially evident when it comes to slowdown perks.
I played this game yesterday:
It certainly didn't feel like the survivor meta has changed much.
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Alien, Terminator or Predator. BHVR could never do them justice.
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I don't run Eruption for the same reason.
I didn't run Dead Hard for about 6 months before 6.1.0.
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Changing the meta should not be the priority.
They should work on balancing the game and respond what metas emerge, not deciding what the meta is going to be.
Players should have to play around with different builds and discover new metas and not just be able to read the patch notes and know what's meta without even playing.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292798#Comment_3292798
You may find pain res fun but my point is ppl still complain about pain res. They not complaining about it now bc of the eruption but when an eruption is nerfed and I know it will be, I just hope it's still useful, ppl will go back to complaining about pain res. Survivors don't like slowdown perks of any kind. They complain about ruin, they complain about pain res, they complain about thana, and they complain about the eruption. You may find pain res fun but most of the survivors on here and in the game don't find any slowdown perk fun and they want every strong killer perk nerfed to the ground.
You don't have to tell me why the eruption isn't fun to most. I know and I do agree with most complaints about it but the difference is I don't want it to be nerfed to the ground and made useless like Thana. Unlike most of yall who are complaining about the perk I offer different ways to change the perk to the devs instead of just crying nerf. Offer ways to fix a perk and make it fairer to both sides. I don't see you or others doing this. All yall doing is asking for it to be nerfed with no compensation. As I said before I think you could change it one of two ways to make it more "fair" One: Low the incap timer back to where it was before the buff but buff the dam it does to the gen when it goes off. Or two: Take the incap effect off completely and replace it with something else like a gift of pain effect where you repair gens slower.
Also on the note of fun, there are a lot of things on the survivor side that isn't fun for a killer to go against. Medkits, BNP toolboxes, Hyperforce builds, CoH, DH, and map offerings. All of these I don't find very fun when Im playing a low-tier killer and if I don't run more than one slowdown perk I get my ass handed to me 9 out 10 times. So yeah there are things on both sides that are very unfun but you only seeing eruption being talked about.
Right now you see thread after thread after thread about how awful Eruption is. Also inside those threads you see a lot more people agreeing than disagreeing that Eruption is a poorly designed and not fun perk.
If Eruption gets changed, you won't see the same backlash with Pain Res. You might see the odd thread complaining about it, but nothing near what Eruption is getting now. There'd be more people going in saying Pain Res is fine, and I'd be right along there with them.
And just because changing/nerfing one thing causes people to go after the next strongest thing is not a valid argument. Same goes with what-about-ism for other perks on either side.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292267#Comment_3292267
Okay, first - no, they can't. At best, you could give solos some more information (what ever happened to those status icons?) but information is not coordination, and coordination is the problem.
Bond is also counterplay. It's going to be a judgement call either way. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for here - a perk that is easy to reliably counter is a bad perk.
18% isn't that much. Keep in mind, we had a perk with a 70%+ pick rate at higher MMRs be overpowered for years, and even post-nerf it's really good.
There is no such thing as 'balanced' in an APVP game. You can improve the balance, but you'll never have perfect parity.
The new meta...what? Dude, it has never been harder to camp and tunnel, with baseline BT and speed boost, OTR, Solidarity etc. You definitely still see the odd camping Bubba (this killer needs a rework) or someone who wants to play the unhook/grab dance game, but that hasn't been changed at all. On the other hand, it's a million times easier to trade against a Hag or a Nurse.
I play both roles, pretty evenly and it's a lot more chase focused on survivor, at least at the intermediate MMR I (probably) play at. I also see a much wider variety of perks on either side - killer isn't just PR, BBQ, DMS, Tink - you'll see Eruption, Surge, CoB, OC, PR...about the only regression perk I don't see much of now is Pop. I also see NTH, STBFL, Agi, Plaything/Penti (although less of this these days), LP, Discordance, IAE and others.
On the survivor end of things, I see Lithe, DH, SB and even the occasional BL. I also see a lot more team focused perks - Bond, Emp etc.
Are you sure you're not engaging in a bit of confirmation bias?
You can't make an arbitrary statement about it SoloQs and SWFs being completely unbalanceable because BHVR has never tried to balance them. It's easy to think something is impossible if no effort is made.
I will concede that SoloQs and SWFs (people tryharding on comms, not just drunks goofing off) will never be equal in terms of balance. But no one ever expects them to be. What people expect is there to be less of a gap.
18% is not a lot? Did you fail at math? 18% is huge compared to the 4% average. Just because Dead Hard was at whatever number you want to use to try to push your point doesn't change anything.
No one is expecting perfect balance from an aPvP game here, but what is expected is at least an attempt at balancing the game. That's why the game has been shrinking since the 39 perk changes on July 19. They didn't balance the game, they just changed the meta and changed it for the worse.
I never said camping and tunneling was made easier. I said made more prominent. Which is true thanks to the BBQ & Chili nerf. A great incentive to not camp and tunnel (or at least not do it so hard) was removed and now we see more camping and tunneling.
I don't want to see DbD die, but I feel like I'm watching it die before my very eyes every time I look at Steam Charts. This is a unique and addictive game. After 6 years we should be watching it grow and thrive. It's sad that DbD is in the state that it's in.
@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292773#Comment_3292773
I mean no perk is really fun go against and never really saw a survivor saying "This killer perk is so fun to go against. I love playing against x perk". Do ppl find starstruck fun? Devout hope fun? DH fun? Hyberforce fun? No "meta" perk is really that fun to go against. I know ppl say DH is fine now but as a killer main I still hate DH bc it's not fun to go against. It's not fun to have to wait for someone to hit E to hit them safely. It's not fun being in a loop with a pallet to have the lose-lose situation of either eating a DH or eating a pallet. Every "meta" perk in this game is a tool to use to win and is not fun to go against. Also, ppl are asking for it to be nerfed. I have seen many asking just for it to be nerfed without buffing another part of it. I very rarely see survivors asking it to be just reworked so it stays somewhat strong for killers but fair for survivors. They want it nerfed to the ground while keeping their broken stuff like BNP toolboxes with hyper-force builds or green medkits with CoH. I'm not talking just about this thread either I'm talking about all the threads about eruption. As I said before Im not defending the current eruption. I understand it is too strong against soloQ but instead of just asking to be nerfed I offer a way to change the perk so it stays decent while also making it fairer towards soloQ. I rarely see ppl do the same.
I find Pain Res fun to go against, even though it's strong.
Why? Because it offers a counterplay, even though it's weak counterplay. I can dodge the scream. I can attempt to bodyblock or sabotage scourge hooks. There are valuable choices that can be made.
That's what can make perks fun. Forcing players to make choices. Choices that make a difference.
And that's why Eruption is bad. It only gives SoloQs really bad choices. They can either give the killer lots of Eruption value or gargantuan amounts of Eruption value. Almost never does the choice sit well, never does the choice feel like they made the right decision. It always feels like you're punished harshly no matter what you choose to do when Eruption is involved. It is an almost textbook oppressive perk vs SoloQs.
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@BlueRose said:
Trust me after the devs end up nerfing eruption to the ground as they did with thana the baby survivors will go after pain res next. The reality of things is survivors hate any type of gen slowdown no matter what the perk is. All they want is to pick the pick map, bring their broken items with broken add-ons, gen rush, and t-bag the killer at the gates and say gg ez in the chat afterward. The problem is if they got their way it would just create more nurse and blight mains since nurse is like the only killer in the game that doesn't have to run any type of gen slowdown or regression perks. She can easily get around and down ppl fast enough to keep up with BNP toolboxes and hyperforce builds.
I truly believe dbd community doesn't really want game balance, They want to be the side that wins all the time. That goes for killers and survivor mains.
No one in this thread has called for Eruption to be nerfed, we're all just agreeing that it's a problem.
The biggest problem with Eruption is that it isn't fun. It's not fun for killers, it's just a tool to help them win. It's the opposite of fun for survivors because it forces them to do nothing for too long.
DbD is bleeding players right now. If the game was in a fun and healthy place this wouldn't be happening. DbD is in a stale and boring place with the current meta.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292478#Comment_3292478
I love how you left out the part in that scenario you just painted that is massively survivor sided as it meant two other survivors just completed two gens in those 90 seconds.
Yeah, what a busted perk. /s
If a gen gets kicked and reaches 0%, Eruption should no longer affect it.
That's busted.
Anyway, thank you for helping to keep this thread near the top of the page. Any and all assistance in helping get Eruption changed ASAP is truly appreciated.
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@WesCravenFan said:
We have reached peak survivor entitlement when losing distance or a chase to stop and kick a gen, then getting into a new chase, going through all the mindgames/pallets/baits involved, and downing a survivor no longer counts as earning it.
Just... wow.
When a killer can kick a gen, have it regress to zero, have a survivor start working on it, have another survivor juice them for a 90 second chase before finally getting the down and still have Eruption proc on that gen...
No, that doesn't count as earning it.
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Not buying this at all.
It's on the game developers to balance the game.
If they choose not to and leave unbalanced things in the game, it doesn't become the player's fault for taking advantage.
I don't see a philosophical issue here.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291998#Comment_3291998
I usually keep about 40k shards.
The shrine was introduced as a means to give players access to DLC perks (nearly a direct quote from Dave in 2016).
That's what they say.
What the shrine truly is, is just something that they can point at and say "See? DbD is not P2W." It's all about plausible deniability.
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@Blink0925 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291742#Comment_3291742
Then they have the right to leave the match they are playing and move to the next match. If people are not responsible for my fun, I am not responsible for their fun, so I dont care how I affect anyone else in the trial. I mean thats the stance the community takes right? So then why is it such an issue when some one DCs or Kills themselves on hook?
You bought and paid for the game. You should play it however you want to play it.
But you can't come to these forums expecting a positive response to you DCing from a match. It is against the forum rules to encourage DCs.
I wish DbD matches were more fun and DCs happened less.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/357697/why-pain-res-is-fine-while-eruption-isnt
PR is still a good perk.
Eruption is...a good perk, but I'd hesitate to call it OP.
This game, like it or not, cannot be balanced around both solos and SWFs. And BHVR, since the rework, seem to be aiming balance at the SWF/killer matchup. Which I think is the most fair way to go about it.
That said, running perks like Empathy can allow you to pretty reliably counter it by letting go at the right time.
An 18% pick rate isn't evidence of anything besides 'this is what the meta is right now'. It's not like Dead Hard, which was something like 80% at higher MMRs. 18% means 'this fits into the game well, as it is played now'.
If you nerf Eruption, then it'll be whatever the next thing is at 18%. And then people will complain about it.
That all said, about the only thing I'd change is removing Eruption if the gen hits 0%. That is all.
The game can easily be balanced around SoloQs and SWFs. They could give SoloQs some information that they wouldn't give to SWFs. Saying it can't be done is patently false. BHVR just chooses not to and leaves SoloQs to fend for themselves, lost and alone.
I run Bond as a SoloQ and even seeing the chased survivor's aura is not a significant help. Even if a survivor is staying off the gen to try to counter Eruption, the killer is still getting a disgusting amount of value from it. That's why I don't hesitate to call it OP, because every form of counterplay it has is awful.
An 18% doesn't mean 'this fits into the game well.' There are ~100 killer perks so seeing a perk in 1 in every 5 or games is way higher than the 1 in ~25 game average across all killer perks.
I want to see the game actually be balanced and not just have them change the meta.
@AcelynnBen said:
its the only gen regression perk that wasn't nerfed along with pain res, ruin and noed
perks which punished genrushing
look, bite me but survivors got used to the game being easy for 6 years now that need to actually avoid or do something they don't like it
I don't know how you can defend this new meta.
It's not that survivor is harder than it was before 6.1.0, it's that it's just not fun or interactive. The least fun aspects of DbD (hook-camping, tunneling and 3genning) have been made even more prominent while the most fun aspects of DbD (chases, interactions with other players) have been made less prominent.
Survivors are doing something. They are choosing not to play DbD.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291801#Comment_3291801
We both know that given the choice, everyone would choose Granny Smiths ;P
Eruption forms quite an issue for SoloQ, but for SWF's it still doesn't do all that much, considering they can just go "I'm about to go down", and all others can let go of their gens.
I'm curious tho, you went out of your way to point out everything that's wrong with it, but what change do you think would make it better?
If they choose to leave incapatitation in then:
- Make it so if a generator hits 0% it stops being affected by Eruption.
- Make it 15 seconds of Incapacitation.
- Make it 15% (or even 20%) regression. (Or same as Pop Goes the Weasel)
- If a survivor is incapacitated there should be a way to tell, like they have a different posture.
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@Phantom_ said:
Eruption does demand effort from the killer. Oftentimes you might have to leave a chase, kick a gen, find the survivor, and down them. It's a bit of comparing apples with pears, Pain Res hooks sometimes have bad RNG, but that's still not always the case. Aside from that it once again synergises with DMS, so for the survivors the amount of time you're not able to do the gens doesn't differ all that much.
That being said, I think that Eruption would be fine if the incapacitated status effect only applied to not being able to do gens! Survivors could still heal/unhook/break totems etcetera. Additionally, it shouldn't synergise with other gen regression perks. Although IMO all gen regression perks shouldn't synergise with one another.
It's not comparing apples to pears at all. It's comparing the 2 most popular killer perks currently in the game with each other and they are both regression perks. It's like comparing Red Delicious apples to Granny Smith apples.
The PR/DMS synergy is so easily outplayed once the survivors know the killer has it and that takes 2 perk slots. With Eruption the killer gets better value from just one perk slot and the counterplay is awful.
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I see a lot of baby survivors (yellow and green perks give them away), weak survivor builds and weak items here. Few survivors running anything close to meta builds here.
I don't understand what you are trying to highlight.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291773#Comment_3291773
Under the list of why Pain Res is fine you put "the killer has to earn its value" which implies that Eruption isn't fine, because the killer doesn't have to earn its value.
Eruption is easier to earn, but the killer still has to earn it.
And I also clearly state in Eruption's section that "Eruption's value is to easily earned."
Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that Eruption gets far too much value for the effort it takes to get it to proc, but I'm not going to edit the post. No one is going to take the time to read it all anyway.
It certainly appears to me that you didn't take the time to read the entire OP before accusing me of implying something I clearly did not had you read it all.
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@Crowman said:
The killer still has to earn value with Eruption. Kicking a gen and then downing a survivor isn't free. Since you seem to imply that Pain Res is earned and not Eruption.
Personally I think all gen effecting perks should end if the gen is fully regressed. Overcharge shouldn't throw a skillcheck if the gen is fully regressed as well.
I implied no such thing.
Kicking a gen and downing a survivor is certainly an easier and more consistent task than downing a survivor and carrying them to a Scourge Hook.
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@SpaghettiYOLO said:
Incapacitated is fine. I'd say the perk is fine in terms of its effects and lengths. What should be changed about it is it should have a timer on how long it can be applied to a gen. Call of Brine is 60 seconds, Overcharge is 30 seconds. Eruption should have a 45 second timer before the effect leaves the gen. If it doesn't get procced in that time, no cooldown. If it does proc, then it still gets the normal cooldown it has now. This would solve a lot. Maybe even make it so it can only be applied to a maximum of 3 gens. I feel like both of these suggestion would make it much healthier. People will still complain, but the perk was nearly useless when the Incapacitated effect was 16 seconds.
You're failing to account for the fact that back when it was 16 seconds the generator didn't regress for that time. They recently patched it so the gen will regress during the incapacitation.
25 seconds is just too damn long to be forced to do nothing.
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No I wouldn't. Next year DbD might just mori itself.
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MMR is still a joke for me. Yesterday I had a game where I got my stuff pushed in by a a group with about 150 prestige levels between them followed by a team with maybe 150 hours between them.
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@Superyoshiegg said:
Well a sale for all previous Winter collections, including the Ugly Sweaters, begins on December 22nd, so it's likely they could be added to the store then.
Don't count on it. It just sets people up to be disappointed.
Expect them not to show up and if they actually do, then you can be pleasantly surprised.
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I think it's a downgrade both visually and functionally.
Not being able to see "latest post by ImmersedNurse" on a thread is a downgrade.
This forum is still a pale shadow compared to forums that I enjoyed as far back as 2007. It's almost like BHVR is too cheap to even give us a place worth posting in.
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@Audiophile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291193#Comment_3291193
Sure Crowman. Everyone believes you.
Is it so hard to believe that at the beginning of an event friends don't hit each other up and want to grind the the event together?
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If you're not getting marks as Ghostface, you're just not leaning enough. A quick lean-stalk mid-chase can put some real progress on their stalk meter.
Also his marking has opportunities for decent counterplay. If you suspect you are close to becoming marked you can become annoying and try to get GF to hit you to reset your meter.
If you take away his ability to mark he becomes the weakest killer in the game by far. At least Trapper can shut down loops with his traps and he's still the current weakest killer in the game.
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@OrangeBear said:
I like it. Rewards are fantastic.
Hiding as killers is pretty funny. Yes snowman camping is not healthy for the game but you can already do a very similar thing with perks or a few killer powers so it's not a huge power boost or anything.
For survivor i think the changes are fair. They are more fit for purpose. They are supposed to be for hiding not body blocking. They did make them move a lot faster though which is appreciated.
Overall i think it's a great event that definitely took in the feedback from last year.
Giving killers a psuedo-Insidious for free in every match is absolutely horrible for the game. Being able to run Insidious and do a similar thing is not the same at all, because almost no one runs Insidious and if they do they have to waste a perk slot on it.
This year killers can run 4 slowdowns and Insidious face-camp for free. Merry Christmas everybody!
It just makes me want to die and go next every round as soon as I've progressed or completed my tome challenge if it is possible to, which also is unhealthy for the game.
I don't find it funny at all. Like @FeelsBadMan, I'm getting my rewards and getting TFO and will play a bit on Tuesday again to kill page 2 of the tome.
Events are supposed to be fun and not just rewarding.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290139#Comment_3290139
Friendly killers usually get insulted. So that might be the reason.
Back in the day, when I was more positive about the direction DbD was heading, I played a lot of friendly killer. I welcomed hundreds of newbs to the game and tried my best to give them a fun match that they'd escape. A respite between the try hard nasty killers. I didn't play to farm until I had my 8 hooks though because farming is boring. I have more games where I ended up with 29,600 bloodpoints on the tally screen than with any other score.
I was hungry for bloodpoints and not kills. I didn't "usually get insulted." Usually it was a neutral experience, sometimes it was a positive experience with a positive endgame chat and rarely I got insulted.
My attitude, and I assume the attitude of many others, towards DbD has changed. Now there is always some challenge to be done. The way rank is earned has changed. Most of the time there is no endgame chat because console players don't get that luxury. With the 6.1.0 nerf to BBQ and Chili there isn't even any reason to try to have a hook on all 4 survivors before people start dying.
As with everything, especially in DbD, there are multiple contributing factors as to why things happen.
Now I only play friendly killer during anniversary events.
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I can't remember the last time I went up against a friendly killer or one that wasn't thirsty.
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To answer your question OP, if players want to play Wesker they have to pay real money to play him. Unless they get super-lucky and win the DLC from a Fog Whisperer. Also, licensed chapters bring new players to the game so it's in BHVR's best interests to make a good first impression.
Dredge and Knight aren't bringing in new players and many players have a stockpile of shards so they don't have to buy those chapters with real money.