Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020894#Comment_3020894
in defense of the survivor, they're not doing generators if they're bodyblocking and by hitting them, they're basically exposing themselves to get tunneled. Also the killer can run stbfl and farm stacks because the survivor is decided to bodyblock, so the killer can also equip a perk to punish this behaviour.
this is one of those changes that we need PTB to see how it plays out.
I guess I'm viewing this more from a swf perspective as that's most my games. So while yes that's one more off the gens, the objective times between the sides is already so ridiculously lopsided that they can afford to do it. Also if you're using stbfl you're probably on an m1 killer and if that's the case getting stbfl stacks isn't really gonna matter much anyway because you're probably getting destroyed since you're an m1 killer in the first place. (speaking in general, not you specifically)
I agree a lot of this needs to be seen in PTB first.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020935#Comment_3020935
No I think the extra 10 seconds on gens is definitely going to be more impactful than the nerfs of some of the gen regression perks. Not to mention other gen regression perks being buffed, but I do believe they will have to nerf Overcharge and Eruption a bit before they make it to live server.
When I think of Pain Resonance or Corrupt Intervention however, the nerfs they got are definitely not on a level as the 10 seconds extra gen time and the 2,5% instant regression. Not to mention the other buffs that killers got, although I hope they revert the bloodlust buff.
Killers can also already be pretty strong with four gen defense perks stacked together.
No, survivors should definitely get more than just 5 seconds of endurance and haste. It should be at least 10 seconds.
And when it comes to camping, well honestly I don't think that's even debatable. They will absolutely have to increase the hook phase duration, or camping will actually get buffed, which would be very bad. I am postitive quite a few survivors would just quit in that case, and rightfully so.
That's why I want each hook phase duration to be increased from 60 to 90 seconds, so camping isn't on the same level it is now, but actually nefed. This is an absolute must with killers getting buffed generally. And the hook grab bullcrap also needs to go, once and for all, it's an incredibly outdated mechanic.
I'm actually okay with most all those survivors buffs you want as they promote healthier game play and I want tunneling/camping gone as well.
My only issue is that if we did give those changes killer would still need significant buffs.
To illustrate what I mean. You could have the killer stacking 4 gen slow down perks with all the survivors running zero perks and no voice coms and I still think it's survivor sided. You probably don't agree with this but that's why I see killers as needing significantly more buffs if we were to do the changes you want and why.
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The stagger limits all future map design and would still be abusable on a couple current maps. It doesn't need to come back.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3021203#Comment_3021203
i don't think kicking gens was pointless because of gen tapping.
It was pointless because a gen that is say 80% complete would take 240 seconds to fully regress. 240 seconds is 4 MINUTES. that is an insane amount of time in DBD terms for 80 second gens
thanks to overcharge, generators after 30 seconds will regress 1:1 ratio and overcharge can punish gen tapping if the survivor fails skill-check.
kicking generators at base is still pointless but with perks, you can make generator kicking very rewarding. Its just another case of use perks if you value fixing generator kicking part of the game.
I was never implying gen tapping was what made kicking gens worthless, I was just responding to his point about it.
I agree with all your other points though.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3021203#Comment_3021203
Don't forget they buffed kicking speed by 10% so it's 1.8 seconds to kick and the increased gen time to 90s means you are taking 2.25 seconds of progress off. Kicking a gen is always a positive drain now.
Well as i mentioned in the other post even with that extra .25 it's still not even close to a positive drain when you account for the other 3 survivors sitting on gens during this. Every 1 second you spend as killer is 3-4 seconds given to them. So 1.8 seconds kicking is actually 1.8x3.
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@jesterkind said:
Except that it'll heavily disincentivise tapping the generator to stop the regression, since doing that means the killer can kick it again for another 2% progress chunked off.
The problem with the base regression speed isn't really that it's too slow, though that might end up being true as well, it's that it never sticks around for that long since it only takes a second of survivor time to stop it completely. This won't be a substitute for a regression perk, but this combined with the longer generator times in general mean that kicking a generator achieves something.
It doesn't really de-incentivize tapping as he's spending 2 seconds to kick in order to take 2 seconds of, plus what little the survivor adds tapping it, and the time the killer wastes walk to and away from it as well...
So really it just makes it net neutral if even slightly still better for the survivor. That is until you take into account that it means the other 3 are still sitting on other gens during all this.
2.5% is pretty irrelevant over all.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3021027#Comment_3021027
I only ever see Spirit with MDR/Cherry Blossom. Or the AI bot, but that's another story.
I get why they present data the way they do. They could make it more granular, but it would probably show problems they're aware of and not trying to fix. I think it would be interesting more than anything just to see a census more or less of killer population and pick rates per bracket. Even if they wanted to hide win rate.
"I only ever see Spirit with MDR/Cherry Blossom."
Pretty much the only way I see her as high mmr viable.
"Or the AI bot, but that's another story."
Yeah we've ran into that bot a few times too.
"but it would probably show problems they're aware of and not trying to fix."
Pretty much my thoughts.
"I think it would be interesting more than anything just to see a census more or less of killer population and pick rates per bracket. Even if they wanted to hide win rate."
I'd be interested in seeing that as well.
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@Canas said:
Wait, no one is bringing up the flawed map design in this game? Even if survivors were forced to play perkless they'd still have a considerable amount of pallets and strong loops at their disposal to keep the killer busy for an entire 5 gen chase. That's how busted map design is despite the frequent reworks which only seem to solidify this weird philosophy.
That's the root of the problem. Unfortunately that would require a ton of work at the rate BHVR does those things. I think they're going for the bandaid fix route instead.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020984#Comment_3020984
I have a feeling there is a chunk of the roster more or less missing from higher brackets. If I play with my 4 man (combined 20k hrs), we pretty much only see Oni, Nurse, Blight, Twins, Hag, Billy, Spirit.
Yeah pretty much. Except Spirit, we haven't seen a Spirit in weeks it feels like.
I don't want to be mr tinfoil hat over here but I've always felt like the stats were intentionally presented in a way to give a specific view that caters to the balance changes they want to make anyway for validation. The issues with how the data is presented just seem too obvious for them not to realize it which is why I can't see any other rational explanation for it.
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@Ogurcha said:
MMR, which is hidden to everyone. This is very convenient because everyone on this forum is high MMR according to them by some miraclous way.
I am not trying to insult you. But I genuinely dont know if this speech is not driven by someone's high ego. So it is not a valid point to me in general.
Important thing, Is that Kinship can deal with toxic killers behaviour (camping). And it has counter (just dont camp)
"MMR, which is hidden to everyone. This is very convenient because everyone on this forum is high MMR according to them by some miraclous way. I am not trying to insult you. But I genuinely dont know if this speech is not driven by someone's high ego. So it is not a valid point to me in general."
I mean I've played both sides at rank 1 on every reset since 2016 and have over 8.5k hours in the game. After playing long enough you're just able to gauge what "rank" you're at by seeing how the survivors play. However yes, a lot of people do just assume high mmr.
"Important thing, Is that Kinship can deal with toxic killers behaviour (camping). And it has counter (just dont camp)"
And I love that aspect of it, which is why I wanted to buff it more in an ideal world. However as I went over earlier it realistically would be abused heavily and completely overpowered at high mmr. Just don't camp isn't a counter for it because in current high mmr unless you are on one of the couple top tier killers you literally cannot win against an equally skilled top tier swf without some combination of tunneling, camping, or them just having a really, really bad game and making a lot of mistakes. This is why all those groups currently just stack all the second chance anti tunnel/camp perks, because they know that is the only way they will lose. If they can force the killer to play "fair" they win. There simply isn't enough time for a 12k hook game even remotely.
Most players don't understand this because outside of high mmr you absolutely don't need to camp or tunnel at all because the survivors make lots of mistakes and there aren't nearly as many SWF groups.
The root of all this problem is what we went over earlier, trying to balance for low tier players. That's why high mmr is in that mess of a state. This is why if you actually balanced from the top down instead we could actually implement much heavier anti camp/tunnel mechanics as then it wouldn't be needed anymore.
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@_VTK_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020919#Comment_3020919
That data is from January 2022. MMR is unable to change the stats in a radical way, since game balance stayed the same. If you match players in a slightly different way, it won't change the global picture. It can only be changed with much longer que times, for example if stronger killers stay the the que for longer, waiting for a match, while at the same time weaker survivors are matched to weaker killers. But it's not the case, so that data is still valid, maybe +/- 2-3%.
I actually think this is very inaccurate.
"MMR is unable to change the stats in a radical way, since game balance stayed the same. If you match players in a slightly different way, it won't change the global picture."
Before we were matched much more casually which covered up the games balance problems as you were much more often facing lower skilled players. With the introduction of MMR you are now facing much higher skilled players and much more SWF groups on average at the top. Matchmaking can have a very large impact on kill rates.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020971#Comment_3020971
They will never split out the data from different MMR brackets, LMAO. But we can hope.
And we all know why..lol
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020907#Comment_3020907
This. Survivors ######### around, screw around, and self-sabotage so much and kill rates STILL aren't where BHVR wants them to be. That is ridiculously telling.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020919#Comment_3020919
Also this. Did we ever get updated #'s after COH?
I don't believe we do.
To be honest I'd much rather them show us hook rates(not hook stages) rather than kill rates. Kill rates really are a flawed metric, especially for how much they're used in terms of balance changes.
Split out the data from different mmr brackets.
Show us the hook rates when the 5th gen is popped and compare that data to hook rates at end of match. I'd be willing to bet you'd see literally a doubling of hooks and even kills for that matter from 5th gen to end of game. IE end game hook bombing and NOED account for literally half the games hooks/kills and are skewing the data tremendously. I consider this a skew and not good data because at that point it isn't really representing balance as much as it is just face camping and not wanting to let a teammate die and ultimately the entire point of this data is for determining balance.
On other words the data as it's generally been presented in the past is very misleading to most people who take it at face value.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020394#Comment_3020394
All these changes will surely add up. They are definitely enough to warrant proper camping nerfs and a 12 second endurance and haste status effect after being unhooked.
The increase in gen times by 10 seconds will definitely be impactful. Not only will it add a total of 50 seconds to gen repair, but it will also give killers much better chances of interrupting survivors before they finish a gen. So those 10 seconds per generator could add even more slowdown then just 50 extra seconds if the killer manages to apply proper pressure.
Regression is also buffed, and then we have a lot of nice little buffs to killers chase ability as well. The tunneling and camping nerfs presented are not even nearly enough to compensate survivors appropriately.
I think you're not accounting for how much weaker all the killer gen regression perks are now as well. Also, 2.5% on base kick is only 2 seconds..essentially having you come out even with the literally time used to kick it..but also not account for walk time and losing pressure. In other words, way less impactful than I think you feel it is.
These buffs overall are also much more impactful on lower tier m1 killers than the high tier ones.
Honestly with the perk nerfs and base changes I see this as nearly a net neutral on gen speeds.
So essentially just a free smaller BT base kit for survivor and some scary perk buffs. I see this as more of a net win for survivors in other words even though I do think they need more as well as killer.
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As far as I'm aware that's actually old data so we don't actually know what the current rates are with mmr.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020798#Comment_3020798
“Ur just wrong”
bro show me these people in tournaments complaining about it, show me demi, otz, souza complaining about bt. Lmao
sometimes its just hard to admit that we are bad and need improvement, but if bt is a problem for u, maybe its time u ponder on that.
2 stacks is enough with the changes tho 🤨
"2 stacks is enough with the changes tho"
While also using a perk slot for STBFL, that's not an issue and not really different from what we currently have when people run the perk. Also basically only ran on m1 killers who are already weak in the meta to begin with.
I would comment on the specific people you mention as there are flaws in it but that can be construed as naming and shaming which is against ToS here. As a general rule it's better to avoid ever mentioning people specifically by name.
I probably have more hours in the game than you and all your friends combined..and then doubled a couple times. I don't like roasting on hours played but I can tell by the things you think that you are newer to the game and that's fine, but you have very aggressive opinions that will change after you get more hours into the game. You should be more open minded on things and less confrontational.
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@Ogurcha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020573#Comment_3020573
Do you really believe DBD is such a competitive game? Yeah it has some comp elements here and there. But no leaderbords, no ranks, no competitive mode, no comp rules, nothing.
This game earns money not from sweat lords with 1000+ hrs. This game is for majority of chill people who for example buys Myers not because they think its OP but because they liked his films.
And majority is already struggling against infinite camping huntresses and bubbas. What will happen after nerfs I can't imagine.
It has an MMR system so yes I classify it as a competitive game now. You don't put an MMR system into a casual game. Before MMR was introduced I could see the argument for it being a casual game, but not anymore.
"This game earns money not from sweat lords with 1000+ hrs. This game is for majority of chill people who for example buys Myers not because they think its OP but because they liked his films."
I play against SWF sweat squads all the time with thousands of hours each so yes, these scenarios are normal matches for me which is why I care about them.
So what you want for all the average players destroys the game for me and anyone that plays at high mmr, which is already why the game is in a disastrous state currently at high mmr..because of catering the balance to the lower tier players.
A balanced game does so from the top down, not the bottom up. So hypothetically if you balance top down then yes the lower players will lose a few more games initially but then their MMR will adjust them until they are winning/losing exactly the same amount as they were before. So ultimately balancing for high mmr makes high mmr actually balanced while simultaneously the only thing it really does to lower players is change the invisible mmr number next to their name in the long run.
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It needed some change to not gut Spirit the way it does but it's current PTB version is dead. No one will run IW anymore, it's terrible. Too heavy handed.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020732#Comment_3020732
I agree mmr is a joke, however it was u who brought it up lol. BT is not a problem, for anyone who knows how to play that is, u will never see a good player complain about it, not in tournaments nor content creators, or streamers.
only players who dont know how to deal with it properly, complain about it. Cause even in coordinated swfs they will bodyblock endurance in effect or not. So.
its not an exaggeration, I literally explained why. This new change means even unhooks in front of the killer is unsafe. Like ???
"I agree mmr is a joke, however it was u who brought it up lol."
Grade has nothing to do with mmr.
"BT is not a problem, for anyone who knows how to play that is, u will never see a good player complain about it, not in tournaments nor content creators, or streamers."
Sorry mate, you're just wrong. They literally do.
"only players who dont know how to deal with it properly, complain about it."
Wrong again.
"its not an exaggeration, I literally explained why. This new change means even unhooks in front of the killer is unsafe. Like ???"
If you've used STBFL to prevent chain unhooks you would know that 2 stacks isn't enough for that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020718#Comment_3020718
I guess this is just another situation where killers are just supposed to suffer with worse tracking abilities, and there’s nothing to be done about it. We’ve had to deal with miserable 0% injured sounds, and now it’s being switched to miserable scratchmarks.
I'm reserving judgement until I see how sporadic the scratchmarks are. Could be good or terrible.
Also, there's honestly a lot worse perks the survivors could be running than Lightweight.
Killer tracking perks would have to be tuned very, very high for them to be considered by most killers over just more gen regression. This is why you don't currently see too many as most don't meet that mark. You mostly only even saw BBQ just because of the blood points. That perks gonna be gone soon as well.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020409#Comment_3020409
But then it comes too good on the killers that already profit from the perk a lot.
Even on its best killers (Plague and Legion) it is not too strong at all currently. You could even buff it more and it would be fine. Neither of those killers are too high on tier lists either so they could use the improvement.
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All it needed was to not work on Undetectable. Everyone pretty much said this.
This PTB version however will never be ran by anyone..it's that bad.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020669#Comment_3020669
Im iri 1 on both killer and surv lol. Bt is only a problem if u consistently tunnel, which I dont. So unless u facecamp a surv just to guarantee a kill then sure its a massive problem. If u distribute hooks this doesn’t change anything.
u implied it didn’t make a difference “its just milisenconds bro”. Well for well versed players it is huge. Its a few stacks of save the best, for free
"Im iri 1 on both killer and surv lol"
Which is play time and not skill.
"Bt is only a problem if u consistently tunnel, which I dont"
Wrong. Anyone with a decent amount of hours in the game knows this.
"u implied it didn’t make a difference “its just milisenconds bro”."
No, I implied that the extent to which you think it's going to make a difference was exaggerated. It will make a difference, that doesn't mean it's going to be a huge one.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020680#Comment_3020680
Lightweight’s shorter duration scratchmarks seems awful for killers though. So if the survivor drops a safe pallet, and gets a bit of distance and breaks line of sight, then too bad for the killer of the scratchmarks go away before they can follow the trail?
I’d like a counter perk to exist for new lightweight, even if some killers don’t want longer scratchmarks. They aren’t using predator anyway, so what difference would it make if that perk got changed?
I actually don't have a good answer for you at the moment.
If Predator increased the time of them and people aren't running Lightweight it will hurt your tracking a lot.
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If anything some maps needs better hook spawns, not worse.
As a general rule I don't think a survivor should ever be able to wiggle off before reaching hook without it being a result of some perk or another survivor intervening with body blocks or sabos. For how much time you lose on downing a survivor it is extremely punishing to lose out on a hook from a down and shouldn't be taken lightly.
They're generally speaking pretty good right now.
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Longer scratch marks is a bad thing, you don't want that on killer.
I've always wanted a perk on both sides that silences or increases footstep sounds.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020559#Comment_3020559
if it were a massive problem why did it get buffed? It seems more like, YOU dont know how to counter it. Cause tbh, I main a M1 killer and BT never bothered me, nor does bodyblock. The changes now to this mechanics dont change much how the game is played.
and tbh if u think 10% doesnt make a difference ur playing killer wrong. It can be the difference between a hit and a no hit at all, a miss and a down
"if it were a massive problem why did it get buffed? It seems more like, YOU dont know how to counter it. Cause tbh, I main a M1 killer and BT never bothered me, nor does bodyblock. The changes now to this mechanics dont change much how the game is played."
Because the average player base is low skill level hence why they cater to those people rather than objective balance. Sounds like you probably just play at low mmr so you haven't experienced the issues I'm talking about.
"and tbh if u think 10% doesnt make a difference ur playing killer wrong. It can be the difference between a hit and a no hit at all, a miss and a down"
I never said it didn't make a difference. What I did say is that you were over exaggerating the extent of that change.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020397#Comment_3020397
If you leave someone on the hook for an extended period of time I'll just go back and proxy camp for guaranteed stage 2 or a trade... not to mention the time that person spends on the hook the game is a 3v1.
And now you just lost another gen from doing that. 3 gens for 2 hooks states is not a good deal for you.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020397#Comment_3020397
That's um good? You've left your teammate on the hook where they're doing nothing. The generator you're doing takes longer to do so you get less done because you're down a teammate. The killer is pressuring one or two of your other teammates who therefore aren't doing generators. If you then do this for too long, the killer has already hooked a second teammate and can now pressure the first into second stage.
You're missing the discrepancy in objective times between the sides. That is more efficient for the survivors. That second survivor just pre drops and you lose 2 gens for only 1 hook state.
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@Ogurcha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020507#Comment_3020507
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020505#Comment_3020505
Yeah, it so OP that you never see it play.
And in competitive it is banned anyway. So what is the difference?
SWF in pubs are doing 100+ winstreaks. Do you really think Kinship will make it worse?
And in soloQ as survivor you get hardcore camper in 80% games.
I thought we are making the game for majority of people...
"SWF in pubs are doing 100+ winstreaks. Do you really think Kinship will make it worse?"
Yes, yes I do. At high mmr I face those groups. This would make it even more miserable.
Based on what you're saying I'm going to assume you weren't playing the game back in 2016 or so because they tested a base variation to prevent camping/tunneling that is essentially the Kinship change we're talking about and survivors abused it..heavily, hence why it was scrapped.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020523#Comment_3020523
That already happens with the current bt. I really dont see the problem. Specially since the killer recover faster now, and the surv does not go as far after being hit.
"That already happens with the current bt. I really dont see the problem."
That literally is currently a massive problem..and now it's even better.
"Specially since the killer recover faster now, and the surv does not go as far after being hit."
10% in those areas is milliseconds bro.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020471#Comment_3020471
How would that bodyblock the killer “to oblivion” like u said? U can only bodyblock once either way
Every survivor repeatedly doing it on each unhook to stall chases. That may sound small to you but is massive at high mmr with how fast gens are. Not to mention at end game.
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@Ogurcha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020474#Comment_3020474
Mind you, everything in the hands of SWF is quite scary. At least it is not very abusable perk like Boil Over. Killer gets his hook stage so what is the problem?
Oh this is way more abusable than Boil Over.
"I've got Kinship, just sit on gens" That's 68 seconds of extra gen time x 3 survivors = 204 extra seconds on gens...that's more than 2 entire gens..for Kinship on only one survivor..and they can all run it..
Yeah...that is insane.
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Maybe just working on both hook stages would be a better change.
That said, this change scares me a bit in the hands of SWF.
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@DY86 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020277#Comment_3020277
u cant stack endurance effects bro. Once u hit the “mend” stage u cant “endure” anything anymore
That isn't what I was implying.
BT or OTR
Once you hit the Mend stage you've already successfully blocked a hit, hence the entire point I'm making.
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Bloodlust I agree.
However the other changes I disagree. I actually think they were extremely soft handed and honestly should've been much heavier.
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So let's buff Thana more so other killers will like it more as well.
I agree on Botany.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020144#Comment_3020144
Increase hook state time by 10-15 seconds for first and second state and then see how it plays out and make changes from there.
As I proceed to just sit on a gen and rush it because I know we have more hook time and can just leave them hanging there for longer...lol
See how that turns out?
Doing what you want causes the exact same problem you are disliking but in reverse.
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I'm all for more heavy handed base kit anti-tunnel changes.
However, the changes they made to the killer side are not even remotely close to enough to compensate for something like that to where no tunneling or camping is necessary.
Increase the base kit killer changes significantly and significantly improve the anti-tunnel camp base kit changes.
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Pretty wild that they think SC needed a nerf but CoH is totally fine. Even pre-nerf SC is still significantly worse than CoH..and SC got nerfed. Makes no sense.
CoH needs a rework, it's flawed by design.
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With these changes I don't see why I or a SWF wouldn't just stack BT or OTR and body block the killer to oblivion. Looks quite abusable on good survivors.
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@dugman said:
If you bodyblock off the hook with the new base kit Endurance you’re losing that 7% movement speed bonus you could have used to get really far away from the killer and ending up best case having to Mend afterward (assuming the new base kit version works like the current Borrowed Time). Depending on the situation it might be better strategy to actually just run away to a safe distance to heal yourself and/or start in on a gen while the killer chases the unhooker or someone else.
Either way it’s not any worse than the current game where basically all killers just assume all unhooked survivors have Borrowed Time anyway.
Not quite, you're ignoring the speed boost you then gain after he hits you. You don't need the 7% to get away with the wipe animation plus sprint from the hit.
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@StarLost The problem with bringing solos up to SWF is the game isn't balanced around SWF, it's balanced around extremely low skill level solo queue. So if we were to implement buffs to solo killer would need massive buffs. More than I think the devs would realistically ever do.
Also, semantics, you know what I meant when I said the average player is bad. The average skill level is a very low skill level, not that the average itself is low.
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@Krazzik said:
All of those perks will pretty much always give the killer more time. If a killer has 60 seconds more time before gens get done, that's 60 seconds longer he has to find, chase, down, hook survivors. Even bad killers will on average get more hooks and kills from bringing gen slowdowns which don't require them to play differently at all.
NOED doesn't even give the killer any more time, and there are multiple ways the killer doesn't even get any or much use out of it. Even if the killer does get use it's usually only one extra hook.
"All of those perks will pretty much always give the killer more time. If a killer has 60 seconds more time before gens get done, that's 60 seconds longer he has to find, chase, down, hook survivors"
No, that is a false equivalency to what we are talking about. Yes if a killer has 60 more seconds of time before gets get done that's 60 more seconds he has to kill survivors, but that is not what the meta perks currently give. They are not just giving free time as you are trying to imply. It is only giving time if you are a skilled player making skilled plays. That is good design and not just free time for doing absolutely nothing and having no skill.
"Even bad killers will on average get more hooks and kills from bringing gen slowdowns which don't require them to play differently at all."
Yes even a bad player will generally get some value from those perks because even a bad player will make a skilled play every now and then. Just because a players is bad doesn't mean he doesn't make some skilled plays every now and then. To point out that bad killers will get more value from running those perks than not does not imply that they give value you free. You must see the flaw in that logic. You're mixing up causation with correlation.
"NOED doesn't even give the killer any more time, and there are multiple ways the killer doesn't even get any or much use out of it. Even if the killer does get use it's usually only one extra hook."
Rarely is that the case.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019856#Comment_3019856
Corrupt, Deadlock, Thana, Ruin. None of them require the killer to play any different than normal, they simply give killers a chunk more time before gens get done.
Corrupt and Thana still require you to play tiles and get hits. It's not just you standing there and gens go slower. Playing tiles well and outplaying the survivor thus getting you hits is skilled play. If you are bad and can't outplay them at the tile you get nothing. Thus the value is tied to your skill.
Ruin does literally nothing if you aren't good at pressure multiple survivors off gens and juggling. That is skilled play. Bad killers get no value from Ruin.
Deadlock is the only one with no cost, negative or skill require and is why I said almost all perks.
I can list nearly all of the other meta gen slow down perks and skill, cost, or negative applies to them as well.
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@Krazzik said:
A lot of gen slowdown is completely passive and requires zero skill on the killer's part to use. They literally just give you more time to chase which will result in more downs and hooks. Yes someone can loop really well and waste your time but you have more time to lose and thus will always get use out of it, you will always get more hooks from bringing gen slowdown perks.
NOED isn't even guarenteed to get any value out of, and while the 4% haste is nice, it doesn't completely deny chases, a good looper can still play against them if they haven't burnt through all the pallets by that point.
"A lot of gen slowdown is completely passive and requires zero skill on the killer's part to use."
This is just a completely false statement. Almost all of the games gen slow down/regression has some variation of skill requirement, cost or negative attached.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019785#Comment_3019785
It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength.
And the skilled part is getting the survivor to death hook in order to kill them. NoeD only removes one health state, it doesn’t magically reduce hook states.
That haste effect as well as the instant down are rewards for playing the majority of the match with three perks, making the game easier for survivors. The fact that the perk can be disabled before it comes into play is plenty of counter to it. With the upcoming change to it, it’ll now glow like a beacon in the dark, making it easier for survivors to nuke it. Only the death hook survivors would have anything to fear and should just avoid the killer during endgame.
Really, the only time NoED is a problem is when it’s a camping Bubbi, only it’s not really NoeD that’s the problem, but Bubbis camping ability, which should have been what the devs looked into. But I guess his sales are too good and they don’t want to risk nerfing him.
"It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength."
They don't cleanse totems in case of NOED already so that's a mute point. They especially won't cleanse them even more now.
"And the skilled part is getting the survivor to death hook in order to kill them. NoeD only removes one health state, it doesn’t magically reduce hook states."
NOED removes way more than 1 health state and it's not skilled getting them hook states when you got them having a bloodlust and 1 hit downs. I think you're downplaying how much a 4% speed boost on killer negates mind games at loops.
"That haste effect as well as the instant down are rewards for playing the majority of the match with three perks, making the game easier for survivors."
My point is it gets bad players way more kills/hooks than they would get with any other perk in that slot and with a removed amount of skill as well.
"The fact that the perk can be disabled before it comes into play is plenty of counter to it."
Which is irrelevant as it doesn't happen in 99% of games.
"With the upcoming change to it, it’ll now glow like a beacon in the dark, making it easier for survivors to nuke it."
Which is a good change, it just doesn't fix the problem entirely.
"Only the death hook survivors would have anything to fear and should just avoid the killer during endgame."
That's just silly. Like the other survivors aren't gonna fear a speed boost and 1 hit down just because they aren't on their last hook. You act like NOED is just instantly gone after 1 down. Not to mention that guy is now absolutely getting face camped to death even if it wasn't his last hook stage.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019760#Comment_3019760
That's fair, I understand why people hate NOED so much but they're outright buffing the counterplay to it so it's now realistic for survivors to always be able to find it and cleanse it and go for the save. The issue now is solo survivors will usually just say "Well I can't find the totem, no point giving him the 4k" and leave, which isn't fun.
I get that a perk that gives easier downs and potentially kills can seem unfair, but gen slowdown does the same thing. Corrupt, Thana, Ruin, it all just artificially gives the killer more time for chase and thus hooks and kills. NOED is just stronger because it's only active for a small amount of the match and is a dead perk slot for the rest.
"I get that a perk that gives easier downs and potentially kills can seem unfair, but gen slowdown does the same thing."
No, I don't think NOED is unfair. It is fair and balanced. I'm only saying it's unhealthy design.
"Corrupt, Thana, Ruin, it all just artificially gives the killer more time for chase and thus hooks and kills"
No, that is quite different. All of those perks require skilled play in order to get value from them. You still have to mind game and play tiles well. NOED with the speed boost removes the skilled play from the tiles. Essentially I wouldn't call a killer getting a hit at a loop with Bloodlust active a skilled play, that's my point.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019742#Comment_3019742
The killer has to play the majority of the match with three perks, therefore it’s not a free or unskilled kill. The unskilled part falls on the survivor who failed to take NoED into account and avoid the killer when the last gen is completed. The killer still has to chase the survivor and down them.
It takes skill to do that against any survivor who knows how to loop. It’s only free or unskilled when the killer is versing bad survivors who don’t know how to do anything other than hold M1 at gens or Shift+W when they see the killer coming at a distance.
"The unskilled part falls on the survivor who failed to take NoED into account"
That isn't unskilled, that's just lazy/greedy.
"The killer still has to chase the survivor and down them."
With a 4% haste which is quite significant.
"It takes skill to do that against any survivor who knows how to loop. It’s only free or unskilled when the killer is versing bad survivors who don’t know how to do anything other than hold M1 at gens or Shift+W when they see the killer coming at a distance."
With a haste buff no, it doesn't. Is the killer skilled getting a hit with Bloodlust active?
I'm not implying NOED is overpowered at all, it's not. I'm only saying it's unhealthy design that artificially inflates kill rates and rewards bad players.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019742#Comment_3019742
No one is bringing an endgame hex-perk for 4% haste. If that's the only use you're getting out of NOED then it wasn't a great perk to bring.
Also I guess we're getting different survivors because it's not uncommon for me to have NOED not activate at all or for it to be cleansed before I get a hit with it. Certainly not a rare occurance.
And if it can be cleansed much easier then there will be much more saves against it, so it will now get much less kills, I don't know what the issue is.
"No one is bringing an endgame hex-perk for 4% haste. If that's the only use you're getting out of NOED then it wasn't a great perk to bring."
That's not what I implied. You just mentioned a specific scenario. You'd more than likely continue to get more after that.
"Also I guess we're getting different survivors because it's not uncommon for me to have NOED not activate at all or for it to be cleansed before I get a hit with it. Certainly not a rare occurance."
For me that's very rare.
"And if it can be cleansed much easier then there will be much more saves against it, so it will now get much less kills, I don't know what the issue is."
Not saying it's a bad change, it is good. I just think it doesn't entirely fix the problem and could've been done a much better way.