Blueberry
Blueberry
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Tunneling requires "intent" behind it. IE I don't believe "accidental" tunneling exists. Tunneling is intentionally ignoring other survivors for the purpose of removing a specific one out of the game. If the killer just coincidentally runs into me twice he isn't tunneling, I either messed up or just bad luck. Me expecting a killer to just be like "oh bro my bad didn't see it was you, carry on", when those scenarios happen would be completely silly of me.
Like if the killer is downing survivors, ignoring them on the ground, and still driving forward at that same guy only wanting to hook them, that would be tunneling, as he's ignoring other survivors with a purpose of removing a specific one.
In my experience people call way more scenarios "tunneling" when they really aren't, those people just don't like accountability and want to make excuses for how the game turned out. I'd probably say like 9/10 times I see "tunneling" thrown out, it's not.
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If we're calling Myers broken now then basically every killer on the roster is broken.
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Not sure why this is an issue, it's harder to slug in the void as you can pick them up from any portal across the map and if he's camping in there it's free gens. Like if I was the killer trying to slug I would rather them be slugged outside, it's more advantageous.
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@Clevarz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996641#Comment_3996641
Wish this would be addressed maybe like a Addon at the very least
The problem is she has her addon slots locked up. Fingernail is 100% required to run and should just be basekit at this point. Then the other two slots are locked with her Videotape Copy or Remote Control.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998428#Comment_3998428
This is the issue behavior is trying to remove unfun elements of the game. Pressure slugging is just making a survivor eat dirt while you run around and play with one one else. Like tunneling is a harmful and unhealthy element to the game.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars have gone down the drain from these tactics alone behavior sees that in the metrics and the numbers. And with fnaf and the TWD giving the biggest player boost it's ever seen they wanted to keep that live blood but have allowed doom posters and streamers who do nothing for the game ruin something that could have been tweaked to perfection.
I think of every time a new element gets added to the game that survivors have to deal with we get told to wait a few months, adapt or that balancing is a long process and to be patient. I'm not going to give examples because anyone with two eyes has seen those words uttered by community managers, player and streamers alike. Except when it comes to a certain area of the game I guess
What exactly have survivors had to deal with your referencing? Other than mmr problems and bad perks that need reworks/buffs I don’t have any issues on survivor.
There’s literally no difference between being on the hook and being on the ground except you can do a lot more on the ground than you can on a hook. If anything being hooked would be the more boring gameplay.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998428#Comment_3998428
How can it not be an issue if its happening though?
If what’s happening?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998550#Comment_3998550
I mean, one of the most common complaints you hear is about not having any gen regression and not being able to find Survivors, despite the fact that stealth is dead.
Any reward you give is going to disproportionally improve high-tiers vs low-tiers. That's just kind of how it's gonna be. A Blight is going to get way more value from the anti-tunnel rewards than Ghostface, simply because he's Blight.
I mean while stealth isn’t necessarily great I wouldn’t say it’s dead or any worse than any other time in the games history. We could point to a few nerfs/buffs in information perks or prevention but not of it is that massive imo. I personally run pretty non meta stuff on survivor for the most part and it’s mostly “stealth” stuff. Albeit not for hiding but making jukes mid chase. I get good value and have a pretty high win rate with this stuff for being non meta and no exhaustion or second chance perks. Just making the point I don’t think stealth is as bad people say. I usually don’t hear people say their difficulty is in finding survivors.
Yes any reward is going effect Blight or S tier killers more but making them help killers perfectly equally isn’t my goal or point. The goal is that it can be better or closer than a Pop does, which is achievable. I think a pain res for example does help all killers much “more” equally than Pop does, even if it won’t be exactly equal ever. We don’t need perfect, just better.
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998544#Comment_3998544
Yeah, but the pause timer for that didn't have to be like 10 seconds. It could be like 40 seconds and then after that it could take 50 seconds to fill up a bar so survivor could recover himself from the ground. So it's still like 90 seconds, but way fair to killers who needs to pressure slug
I see what you’re saying, that does make sense. I just feel like there’s many times you slug for pressure not around the survivor. So like I need to chase survivor A but if I do survivor B is gonna be pumping out the last generator so I have to slug survivor C to hopefully pull survivor B off the gen to give me enough time to chase survivor A.
The problem with these free pick ups is it removes any pressure from slugging. If I know my teammate can just pick himself up I’ll just leave him there while I sit on gens pumping. That’s why don’t like self pick ups.
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That would be good. One big problem with their rewards is that they rewarded some killers WAY more than others. I’d honestly scrap the haste and aura reading entirely since it helps strong killers the most that don’t need it and barely help the bad killers that do. Also, the base kit “pop” again, is great for already strong killers and mediocre for a lot of weaker ones.
We need stuff that works on everyone more equally. Just make it a global gen reduction or instead of pop base kit it’s a pain res base kit.
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Yeah I agreed with most his takes.
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998522#Comment_3998522
No. When a killer hooks a survivor there is a short pause when the meter is not filling up in order to give killer time to move from the hook.
I was thinking about it more as a pause before the anti-slugging bar is starting to fill up so killers like oni and twins could attack someone else before hooking the slugged survivor without getting penalized from that system.
I mean that helps but in general this wouldn’t fix anything. There are many killers and times where they need to slug much longer than that. I don’t think there’s inherently anything wrong with slugging itself for pressure. The only thing I think is an issue is bleed out scenarios and that’s been basically already addressed with the abandon feature so I don’t think slugging needs any changes at all really.
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998428#Comment_3998428
I honestly don't know why they didn't implement that pausing timer feature into the slugging like they did with anti-facecamp mechanic
You mean like if they killer hovers near them on the ground they can get up?
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The slugging feature was terrible as well. The goal is to punish toxic slugging which is trying to bleed people out, not punish pressure slugging, which is what that feature was doing.
And honestly since we already have the abandon on a 4 slug implemented slugging isn’t even an issue anymore.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997957#Comment_3997957
It's a hard thing to really define because despite the intention behind it, the results are the same. If a player feels like their time was wasted and/or they didn't have the tools to defend themselves, then the only difference between the two scenarios is a difference of .5-1k BP. I don't think that should be on either player to rectify, which is why I think BHVR stepping up to address these sorts of things is important to the health of the game. Like @Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997927#Comment_3997927
There needs to be positive and negative weights to shift the game in the right direction. Not just punishments like they've doled out as recently as a couple months ago. And hopefully how they handled this overall, despite being messy, is a positive sign.
" they didn't have the tools to defend themselves"
In the scenario I'm describing this wouldn't be relevant because they would have the tools to defend themselves, they just failed. "Actual" tunneling with intent is done in a way that does remove some tools to defend themselves.
"If a player feels like their time was wasted "
As said before, without being done with tunneling intent their tools aren't taken away. So the literal only reason to feel their time was wasted was because they played bad. The truth hurts here. The result may be the same, but the reasoning for getting there is different, and that matters.
In reality the only reason to hate the "not real" tunneling scenarios I'm talking about and still consider them tunneling is a lack of accountability and feeling bad, because you played bad. Since the killers just happening to run into them their tools haven't been removed, they just got outplayed, again. There were no shortcuts here like "real" tunneling removes.
BHVR cannot make changes to the game to fix this problem when at the end of the day it's a skill issue. They just have to get better.
Again, not talking about "real" tunneling here. Just talking about the scenarios I mentioned that aren't really tunneling but many people like to consider them tunneling because accountability is hard.
BHVR has been consistently making changes to try and get bad players to win more matches than they realistically should be. It's bad design.
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@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997967#Comment_3997967
If there is a bot killers then yeah go on, otherwise no and also I have challenges so at least I can do it with a bot killer just as they with bot survivors in their lobbies once all abandon
At least you’re consistent. The downside of all this is we’d all be playing tons of forced bot matches on both sides or be bailing on more games than you’d actually play. This would be so wildly unhealthy for the game.
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Would killers also be able to abandon if a gen gets completed within 60 seconds of another gen?
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Tbh I didn’t see any killers liking that patch. They all said it was a bad idea as well.
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Many people call things tunneling that aren’t tunneling, that’s the problem. Someone just happening to get hooked twice in a row isn’t tunneling. Tunneling requires intent behind it, such as ignoring other players and just wanting you. Just because I’m wondering around the map and happen to run into the person that was last hooked that isn’t tunneling. You can’t expect the killer to just be like oh dang my bad bro! Didn’t see it was you! Carry on mate. And then continue wondering around looking for someone different while he plops on a gen after you leave. That would be just silly. These scenarios are what lots of survivors consider tunneling though and expect the killer to do just that.
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Onryo- tape destruction on hit. There’s currently no counter play to tapes other than preventing them getting them in the first place by spamming TVs
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Yeah it makes no sense. It would be like allowing the killer to abandon if the gens were getting completed too fast. Oh two gens popped within 30 seconds of each other? Abandon. lol
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Now that we can already just bail out of any match where a killers trying to toxic slug everyone none of these slug changes are necessary at all imo. Just overkill.
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While I dislike lots of this patch, hook states absolutely need to be shown if they’re going through with it given how much rules killers are supposed to be paying attention to mid game.
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These changes are so extreme that they go way past “anti tunnel” or “anti slug” and much more into just “anti momentum”. Like we just don’t want you doing “too well”.
This would be like if survivors got gens blocked every time they reached 50% until another gen got equivalent progress. This would seem silly as it would just be punishing them for playing well. That’s how these killer changes look.
What the killers are getting also doesn’t look even remotely equivalent to what survivors are getting. Yeah we haven’t seen numbers, but the level of numbers we’d need on those effects to make them balanced they would just never do.
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@Chadku said:
It's just annoying to never get the actual numbers or important stuff like Sadako & Piglet's kill ability being omitted.
Like the bonus on unique hooks or tunnel penalty doesn't say how much the bonuses or penalty is.
There's no point to not include the numbers in the update posts.
Numberwise all that is known is that 90s total to pick yourself up and 6 hooks before you're allowed to kill someone.
I find that extremely weird not to put the numbers in the post as well. Like with how close it is to the ptb there’s no way they haven’t already decided on those numbers. I can’t see any reason to omit them other than they were wanting to see how bad the backlash is to alter them depending how loud people are.
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The regression does need to be automatic instead of a kick since kicks are way better on high mobility/already strong killers and weak on low mobility/already weak killers. The opposite of what we want to see. The haste is also great on some killers and bad on others. A lot of inconsistencies with how good these will be between killers.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992063#Comment_3992063
Odd that the same streamers calling survivors bad are the ones who cried and cried when mmr was first introduced (and actually somewhat worked) and they couldn't do 50 winstreaks on every killer while reading chat and listening to music.
Not sure what streamers you’re referencing. Don’t think I saw any of this.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992063#Comment_3992063
Sure, and Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
They have to balance the game around the player base they have and the way matches actually play out in reality - not some theoretical edge case where all the survivors are perfect and the killers mediocre in every match. Saying a kill isn't a kill is ridiculous - the killer still won and the survivor still lost.
You’re strawmanning my point. Also, there’s a big difference between losing because I played bad and losing because of balance problems. Both are a loss, but one feels significantly different than the other.
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The average player in dbd is very bad. This is why kill rates mean very little. They aren’t very representative of balance. The only reason you don’t see win rates as high on survivor is because of those same bad teammates pulling you down. IE if you made a 4 man swf you’d see the same win rates.
The context of wins for either side is more important than just if they won or lost. This is how statistics get misinterpreted.
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Why are we nerfing Artist? You're nerfing her only good addons and making her terrible ones, while better, still terrible. Just a nerf overall.
Thrilling Tremors shouldn't have a cooldown at all and the duration needs to be increased significantly. We want to encourage killers to hook. This perk is still very bad. This buff is basically placebo.
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@TheGigachad said:
It won't break the perk overall but in some situations it would be too powerful, if theres a chest near a gen or inside the tile the survivor is looping.
I would say increase the range to 12-16m and dont inform the survivors about it, the devs should learn from darkness revealed that 8m is too short even if the amounts of lockers are much more than that of chests.
I'd be okay going that route of increasing the range for a buff instead of the duration. That's a good idea too.
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
I'm fine with them being buffed, but not fully reverted. They provided way too much regression for nothing, and the 8 kick limit does not change that fact.
(As a side note, you guys are in luck as Call of Brine is slated to get buffed in the next update most likely to 150% regression.)
"for nothing"
I generally disagree with this statement. The cost of kicking is more significant than people realize. It wastes a ton of time and pressure. Unlike the other regressions, it's also not guaranteed. You could commit to that time and pressure waste for it to immediately get touched and you gained nothing. They're higher risk and cost than other regression perks.
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It was a bad idea imo. If it activated after you were 4 man slugged for x amount of time, then sure, prevents toxicity. However that’s not how it’s used. In 99% of cases it is literally just a go next faster button. When people say it’s for toxicity I think this is extremely disingenuous as the vast, vast majority of cases that it is not what it’s used for.
It’s hard to get honest input on this feature though because if you only play survivor why wouldn’t you want it? Let’s you go next faster, no downside. It’s just a dc with no penalty feature.
However it’s not good for the overall health of the game. I do think a built in self pick up as you suggested is also unhealthy for the game though. Honestly the solution here is simple, keep the abandon for toxic situations only by making it usable after everyone is incapacitated for x time, not instant.
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@WarCorrespondent said:
You can view the 8-damage limit as 8 different attempts for each generator to try some sort of Massive Regression event.
And you really only need a 50% or more progressed generator to be reduced to 0, possibly once to see a gigantic shift in the match's outcome.As satisfying as it is, we can still COB+Overcharge on a corner gen, and prevent repairs tactically to get a similar result. A killer just needs to keeps the survivors hands off it for longer.
"A killer just needs to keeps the survivors hands off it for longer."
Yeah that's the key point here. That time is unrealistic. If you can actually do this what are the survivors actually doing this entire time? So saying you can do this isn't really true unless you're playing against survivors that are new to the game. -
They aren’t good enough to run imo. An effect that is only relevant on specifically the obsession isn’t triggering enough for what it gives and exposed on friends is so short in duration that it might as well not exist. It’s essentially just an aura read. And you even aren’t getting that value if it’s the obsession.
Both would need buffs to be worth it.
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I really wish we'd see more side objective or stealth killers. We haven't had many in a long time.
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i've been wanting something like this as well. Think The Shadow over Innsmouth. Lovecraftion horror themed. Something they haven't tapped into yet.
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Agreed. I just played a match against a Ghostface and I literally stared straight at the ground intentionally trying not to break him out and it still got him..it was ridiculous how generous that was.
Make it harder to break him out, Drop Leg base kit, slugged and hooked survivors shouldn't reveal him, and injures don't remove stalk progress.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930454#Comment_3930454
Pay attention to this paragraph right here.
Killers enact these strategies almost never out of toxicity or spite, but rather because the situation of the game they're in requires it in order for them to have a chance at winning.
It is exactly what they're referring to. The situation of the game requiring tunneling can be as simple as gens go too fast.
And does it anywhere in that statement say top tier killers? When someone mentions a balance problem, unless specifically stated, they are almost never referencing Nurse, Blight, Billy, SWF comp on coms ect. This is just an obvious given. They are referencing the majority, not a minority exception.
This would be like you saying survivors need buffs and then I say, you think a 4 man comp squad on coms needs buffs?! Obviously that wouldn't be what you meant and would be me being disingenuous of what I know you really meant.
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Instead just make Rusty Flute base kit for Spirit, it's basically an auto lock required addon at this point.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930288#Comment_3930288
I see your point and I agree.
Personally, I have memorized all that, but you cannot expect that from the ordinary player that doesn't invest thousands of hours on one killer / two killers in my case.
I'm definitely in the minority there.
I understand the need for the change though. Her chase got buffed, so her traps needed some form of nerf. While this was definitely not the buff I would ha e suggested, it's one I can accept.
My idea would have been to nerf the annoying scream builds because they make playing around the traps too easy and more leathal.
My issue with the buff to ambush/chase is that this isn't anything unique about her. If I wanted to play a chase killer I'd just play with one of the dozen other ones that already exist that do it way, way better. The ambush is a side feature of her, the core game play and identity of her is the traps and what makes her unique. I couldn't care less about her ambush, even if it was good, which I don't feel it is.
I would much rather, as you suggested, nerf the scream stuff that cheesed kills instead. The prevention feature they did to just box blocking was a good addition to this as well.
I understand you've memorized them but we know they want to balance around average players rather than multi-thousand hour ones.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930322#Comment_3930322
Id say, that using any form of third party software, WHICH THE GAME WAS NOT DESIGNED IN MIND WITH, is some form of cheating.
Using discord to play swf is some form of cheating.
However, you need to differentiate between what is tolerated and not tolerated by those in charge. At the end of the day, BHVR decides what is bannable and what not.
Using reshade and discord is a form of tolerated cheating. There will be no consequences if you do it. The reasons for that are pretty clear.
Using, I dont know what these kinds of programms are called, to make your survivor run like the road runner or jump like Mario is not - tolerated cheating. Doing it will, hopefully, result in consequences for the person doing it.
Participating in tolerated cheating is fine. No need to be ashamed. Its backed up by the devs.
One side note, I'd say the only reason the devs even "allow" those forms of cheating isn't because they tolerate it, it's because they have no way to enforce it. IE if they could, they would probably make them bannable. I don't generally think they "like" it or are okay with it, as people tend to use as their reasoning for why it's not cheating in their mind. That is to say that it not being bannable isn't a good reason for why it's not cheating. Agree with all your points still, just adding to them.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930372#Comment_3930372
And yet someone who plays a top-tier killer could say something like gens go too fast, so they need to tunnel to win. Is that not "the situation of the game requiring them to tunnel in order to win"?
Even though someone "could" say that, is that what he said? You know that's not what he's referring too.
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@Kaitsja said:
So, when the killer tunnels at 5 gens as a top-tier killer they're doing it out of necessity? I find that hard to believe.
You know that's not what he said, at all.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706510#Comment_3706510
Then so is Discord and/or console party chat.
Yup, they are.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
People want the game to be more fun and balanced for everybody. We want the game to go in a direction where going for max hooks is rewarded and encouraged.
The concern over the upcoming anti tunneling/camping/slugging changes, while we know they are well intentioned, is that competent survivors in SWF will abuse them to make the game unwinnable for 90%+ of the killer roster. The game will become more obnoxious and frustrating for high MMR killer players. We know there's literally no intent or desire to ever nerf SWF and these concerns are always dismissed away as "who cares if they completely break the game, you never play against them anyways" even though I'd say in my own experience 30 to 40% of my lobbies are full stacked meta with people on comms
Agree with your points. In general I think when people massively down play how many matches are swf at high mmr it's just telling me that they don't play killer at high mmr.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930132#Comment_3930132
You can memorize survivor movement and box spawns. I still play her macro to the max and its a lot of fun. I get head pops every third or fourth game.
While you "technically" can for every single map and variant, it's impractical. Especially given how the spawns can alternate. All this adds is unnecessary tediousness to the killer. While I understand that people don't like box pressuring, that is what makes her unique, fun and viable.
This is like saying I could memorize all onryo tv spawns. Could you, technically? Yeah. Is it extremely tedious and impractical? Also yeah.
I used to love playing Pig, but box aura removal ruined the killer for me.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930226#Comment_3930226
I would say so, yes. DBD wasnt created with comms in mind as far as I know.
Just like reshade, its obvisouly not bannable to use voice communication.
Personally, it just hits different when you see people cheating to make their game look like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TN0AFE1YI4QR/ezgif-84f6bfe46e328f.jpg
(this is just a mild example. Ive seen much worse back when people excessively used stretched resolution)
I find an Ace that looks like a tomatoe similarly cringe as an Ace that screams at their teammates in clock callouts. Sorry.
Yeah I agree. I would call reshade and using coms both as cheating per that same criteria, even though as you said it's not bannable per say.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930226#Comment_3930226
The only opinion on these kind of questions that really matters are the devs, and they've said repeatedly that comms is not cheating nor bannable. Reshade is whitelisted so again the devs say that's not cheating.
I bet our precious Switch cousins feel that anything above 30 frames is cheating, but on PC it can currently go to 120. 😋
While there's lots that one platform has access to that the others cannot, I look at most of it as unenforceable. How could they possibly know who's using comms, especially on the consoles, let alone do anything about if they wished to?
If what matters is whether or not the devs allow it, then the whole, "outside program and the game wasn't balanced around it" is a meaningless statement. Either that's the criteria or it's not, otherwise this is inconsistent.
Personally I think "outside program and the game wasn't balanced around it." is the best criteria for judging "cheating" and I would apply it consistently across the board, so including coms. This seems a logical conclusion fitting the definition. The textbook definition is also generally just stating "dishonest or unfair acts". Really not anything relating to what is or isn't allowed.
If we judge by just "what the devs allow" this seems silly. If there was an outside program to let all killers move at 145% movespeed across the board, but the devs allowed it, is it now not cheating? I would still call that cheating.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930156#Comment_3930156
Talk about picking up old stuff. I said that over a year ago and I still stand by my opinion.
A lot of people use reshade, a third party software, to gain an advantage in the game. The game was not programmed with reshade in mind. The devs even abandoned offerings that made it so that the players could change the lighting in game because they wanted to have more control over it. If people have issues seeing things in game, then that is totally valid to point out as an issue of accessibility. We should then change the sliders we have IN GAME to adress these issues.
Using third party software imo. is cheating. Thats how I see it personally. Doesnt mean that its necessarily a bannable offence. No matter how small or big the advantage might be, its an advantage, their opponent might not have. People using to gain that adavntage are cheating. Sorry not sorry.
Would you say coms are cheating as well then? Given it's an outside program and the game wasn't balanced around it.
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Jurassic Park/World, The Mummy, The Thing, Call of Cthulhu, and Jaws are at the top of my list. Licensed chapter speaking anyway.
Oh and a Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Elden Ring chapter would be amazing!