Blueberry
Blueberry
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924313#Comment_3924313
yup, gotten many kills and hookstates/points because of over cocky survivors.
Its honestly the best feeling in this game is getting someone at the exit gates XDhttps://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924311#Comment_3924311
That’s fair to bring up, but the comparison doesn't really hold when you look at how games like DBD function versus real-life sports.
In a recreational sport, there’s a guaranteed fixed length, and both sides are expected to see it through because there's value in playing for prestige/money, learning from mistakes, or just getting the exercise. There’s no equivalent of one team forcing the other to stand still for 5 minutes while they celebrate, which is what "bleeding out" often amounted to in DBD.
DBD isn’t a fixed-time game. It’s a player-determined match where one side can literally prolong the ending just because they feel like it. That’s not sportsmanship, that’s stalling. The abandon feature wasn't created so people could "rage quit"; it was created so people don’t get held hostage by players who won’t let the game end.
The exit gates being powered doesnt mean the game is over by a long shot as many have pointed out. And the time it would take to push people out is 10-20 seconds.
No, there isn’t a fixed time normally, you’re thinking of specific sports. In recreational sports we also aren’t playing for money or prestige. None of these things apply. You’re also acting like the abandon feature is for bleed outs, it’s not. You’re able to abandon immediately on being downed. Yall being slugged is not yall being bled out. The vast, vast majority of all the abandons like 99% are just as soon as they hit the ground. So no, we aren’t talking laying there for 5min while they “celebrate”, that’s disingenuous.
The abandon feature is absolutely not to prevent being held hostage. That is like a decimal percentage of games. 99% of matches abandoned are literally just normal games that you’re being allowed to abandon early to go next faster. That’s it. In the vast majority of matches it IS used as rage quit to move on faster.
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@Shroompy said:
Just because the exit gates are open doesnt mean the game is over. Survivor on the other hand, if everyone is being bled out there is literally nothing else they can do unless they have a way to pick themselves back up.
“Being bled out” is adding additional criteria than what actually exists. The criteria is going down, that’s it. You can all abandon immediately. The abandon feature is not activating because you’re being bled out in its current iteration. Everyone getting slugged does not imply you’re being bled out.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924278#Comment_3924278
I just find the whole concept weird. It’s like if we were playing football games and every time the timer for the end of the game was done the losing team just instantly leftA few points
1: If we're talking professional sports, well they've been paid for a certain amount of time (the TV networks are still running ads, the stadium is still selling merch). Much different than a purely recreational activity. On a recreational front, I've played lots of games where one team / player got such a large lead that everyone agreed it wasn't worth playing it out and we just move on and play something else.
College and high school sports have mercy rules to end blowouts quicker.
2: If by football we mean American football, it certainly has something like this. When one team has an insurmountable lead they put in their backups and they run the ball more to speed up the clock. Frequently the losing team does the same.
It also has the 'kneel down' play meant to literally just run out the clock.
3: If by football we're talking about soccer, the nature of the game's score means that it is rarely impossible for it to be completely out of reach. Given leads are usually 1 or 2 goals, you aren't going to have the same disparity as exists in something like DbD.
I was referencing American and not professional. Like you don’t generally see any of this in recreational sports. Like I played sports all my life growing up as a kid and even we get destroyed we saw the whole game through till the end, shook hands, stayed for the announcements ect.
If every time we were too far behind to win we just instantly quit and walked off the field that would look so petty and childish. It’s not good sportsmanship.
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You know back in those days I liked the button mashing and didn’t like that they were changing it to skill checks but here we are now so much time later and honestly the button mashing sounds so bad now in retrospect. It was a good change.
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I find it kind of weird that ever since the abandon feature as survivor I haven’t seen a single losing match to the conclusion. Like it’s an auto everyone leaves instantly. I just find the whole concept weird. It’s like if we were playing football games and every time the timer for the end of the game was done the losing team just instantly left, like immediately walked off the field. No conclusion winding up the matches, announcements, shaking hands, nothing. Like it’s just anticlimactic and would make it look petty that the losing team didn’t even stay to see it to the conclusion.
Like the equivalent of this would be if as soon as the final gen was completed the killer could instantly abandon as well. I mean this would be fair based on the survivor abandon criteria, but this would sound just as weird as the survivor one to me. Same issues. It’s just instantly leaving for convenience without seeing the game to the conclusion.
I feel like this abandon feature should’ve been to avoid toxicity such as bleeding survivors out or something, not just as a way to save time and go next faster while avoiding good sportsmanship. How it’s currently used harms the integrity of the game imo, even if most people find it “convenient”.
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Unable to remove Weakened in chase would feel awful. Just increasing the time to remove Weakened would be significantly better. There's nothing wrong with a hit and run play style.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923715#Comment_3923715
There is also that add-on that increases this problem to be fair. Would you reckon hitting the add-on with a new effect would be enough? Or is even the basekit version too much?
(I have only played console Nurse, or against PC Nurse, and trying to discern that myself is difficult 😅)
Imo base kit is the problem. Addon should be changed as well.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923645#Comment_3923645
Like I said, it doesn't really matter, I was just curious.
I do feel that you'd be more clearly communicating that you think a killer is bad if you use a low letter grade instead of a medium letter grade, though. If all you say is "this killer is X at best", and the X is C, I feel more people are gonna intuit that as "this killer isn't good", whereas B I feel like communicates "this killer is fine and not particularly bad".
Letter grades aren't that useful for this kind of communication anyway, though, so c'est la vie.
I mean that's true. It's just that when I say a killer is B, I'm saying B because I agree with their criteria for why they're B, which is usually they can perform decently well in most matches. So by making it clear to them that I don't think B is well balanced as you're saying, they'd think I don't believe B tier killers can win most their matches, which isn't what I think.
If I stated C, to communicate clearly, I'd be having to be giving my criteria every single time to make what I'm saying make sense.
Essentially you're wanting me to use my letter grades by my criteria in every day speech which is technically accurate for my balance view, but would cause more confusion in every day speech by doing that. I think what I instead do, which is say B is weak and give my reasons why, is less confusing in conversation than just saying C tier. Since when I say C they are going to immediately assume a lot of other things that I don't believe.
Sometimes speaking the way people understand is better than what is technically the correct speech in other words since the end goal is being understood more, not just being right.
All this confusion just stems from people judging their tier lists by different criteria though. That's the core of the problem.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923636#Comment_3923636
Isn't that kind of the idea of a tier list, though? That you'd place things based on how you see it, and it might be different to how others see it, so that's where the discussion comes from? They're not objective, so "correcting" them based on how others see the things in question doesn't really make sense to me.
This doesn't matter, to be clear, I was just very curious and confused.
I mean while that premise is true, it's essentially just arguing for me to have the list shifted down once so that the top is now S+ as I demonstrated in my example. What does this accomplish? Basically nothing. Its only purpose is to support that "The letter rank in the middle of the tier list is middle of the road"
However if my criteria placed at the beginning states that it's not, then "My point is, isn't the B tier supposed to be the middle, not the start of the bad?" is an unnecessary criteria to meet.
Like if I state that B is the start of bad in my criteria, does it matter that B is the start of bad rather than C?
I'm just not seeing why it matters I guess. I just see the tier list as more a trickle down of bad rather than a top, middle, bottom.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923629#Comment_3923629
But like… why?
Why not just define the killers who struggle to have agency as being below the middle? I just don't see the benefit of doing it this way, it seems like you're choosing the scale just to define weak killers as B instead of C or D for some reason.
We can do it that way if you want, but what that ends up being is just semantics. If I made that B as C, as you're requesting it also confuses a lot of people looking at the list since people tend to use their metrics a bit different.
IE current B for most people is middle of the road, but they're usually basing their middle of the road off different criteria than I am. So I'm generally using B in a way that confuses them less. If I was posting a tier list I'd place my metrics at the beginning for a reference point.
If I adjusted my levels in the way you want people would see a ton of killers in C or D and be very confused as those killers aren't generally considered C or D tier because of peoples different metrics.
It's kind of like using a word by its incorrect definition, but you use it that way because that incorrect way is how most people interpret and use the word. Using it "technically" correct, would cause most people to be more confused when you use it that way, even if it's technically correct.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923619#Comment_3923619
My point is, isn't the B tier supposed to be the middle, not the start of the bad?
The way you're describing the A tier should be the B tier, otherwise the scaling doesn't make any sense. A standard S/A/B/C/D tier would make most sense with B being the middle, the baseline you compare other things to.
This isn't specifically about DBD, this is just how I've always understood tier lists to work. B is the middle, so it's the baseline, the standard, the "good enough but not incredible".
It should be, but it's not.
If it makes it look better we can start our top tier at S+ instead of S.
S+-
S-
A-
B-
C-
Now it looks more in the middle lol
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923460#Comment_3923460
I'm not reigniting this debate overall, but I have to ask because it's been eating away at me all night - when you say anything at B tier or below is weak and not viable… how on earth are you defining the tiers?
If B tier isn't the down-the-middle, baseline, decent-but-not-incredible tier for things that can get the job done, what is it?
Well of course since we're talking tier lists it's all subjective for everyone's list. My own personal tier list is based on how well that killer can compete if both them and survivors are all equally skilled and very good. IE if both sides are making very little, if any mistakes, what happens.
Essentially anything B tier and below relies on lots of mistakes from the survivors to win. Meaning if it's a B tier killer or below and both sides play perfectly, the killer loses basically every time. B tier relies on multiple mistakes from the survivors and as we trickle down the tier list C, D, F the amount of bad plays you need to see from the survivors to win increases. B tier and below represents a lack of agency in the game. You can be on your peak game and still lose.
To compare it to the polar opposite of this we can look at S tier killers. These killers do not rely on survivor mistakes. If both sides play perfectly the killer generally wins almost every time. They have agency. If I play well, I win. They can make plays happen whether the survivors mess up or not. Note that I would personally give some nerfs to S tier killers atm. In the same sense that killers B and below lack agency, survivors in this case lack agency, and that's not good for the same reason as the low tier killers.
The prime goal is A tier to me. A tier killers still do require some mistakes from the survivors, but it's slight. If you play perfectly as killer you still have a good chance of winning, as opposed to B tier. However you playing perfectly as an A tier isn't just an, "I didn't make a mistake? I win", like S tier generally is. A tier is a fair chance of winning still for the other side even if you're on your peak game but you still have some solid agency. It's the slight tilt we see in how the devs want a slight tilt of 60% kill rate as opposed to say 50%.
The key takeaway is how much agency the player has over the outcome, be that survivor or killer.
I hope this answers your question. I can elaborate more if there's somewhere I was a bit vague.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
According to this. These killers could use slight buffs. Its not 100% accurate but close enough. Do I think nurse and blight need a buff? No lol.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GMNQQX4U7TWS/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FJ37PDZ9GVJJ/image.png
I wish they'd give us the full roster stats more often. They do it so rarely that we're forced to use Nightlight as our only real data source. Like I'm not sure their reasoning behind only showing us top performers that are overperforming as based on previous data and Nightlight pretty consistently shows that the majority of the killer roster is underperforming. It just seems weird to show like the 10% that are too good, when 90% are doing bad. Doesn't seem like where the focus should be.
Some of them are like really underperforming, not just a few %.
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For reference what do you consider a win?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923460#Comment_3923460
I don't really think there's much more to say here, all I can really hit back with here is that you're downplaying some of these things pretty tremendously and that's not particularly constructive. I guess I could point out that I'm not arguing semantics when it comes to the killers, I'm defining my point. None of those killers raised in power so tremendously it shook up the whole power rankings, but they all (for the most part) got either stronger or smoother and more enjoyable to play when it comes to engaging with the game on a fundamental level.
See Leatherface again. It doesn't make him an S tier that he doesn't bump onto things as much and that his tantrum is so short you can't even reliably use lockers against him anymore, but it undeniably helps and makes him considerably better at engaging with the match. Same for Nemesis; his early game being dramatically improved and his already potent Tentacle Strike being bolstered, alongside reworking some of his addons to be genuinely powerful, really solidified his positioning and helped him engage with the game. They struggled before, the both of them, in ways they now do not.
Beyond that, all I feel inclined to say on the matter is that nightlight has proven to be quite wrong about killrate stats in particular, since recently we got the real stats and they were noticeably different. Per real stats, and also just by taking a step back and looking at how much has improved in what ways over the past few years, it's pretty obvious that killers are doing pretty damn well lately.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, it seems.
"None of those killers raised in power so tremendously it shook up the whole power rankings"
That's part of my point. They're so bad they needed to have their power rankings shook up.
"they all (for the most part) got either stronger or smoother and more enjoyable to play when it comes to engaging with the game on a fundamental level. "
Better and smoother is good, but if they're still bad the goal still isn't accomplished. Making tunneling near impossible means bad killers need to be "good", not just better or smoother. Better or smoother can make a killer less bad, but still bad.
"See Leatherface again. It doesn't make him an S tier that he doesn't bump onto things as much and that his tantrum is so short you can't even reliably use lockers against him anymore, but it undeniably helps and makes him considerably better at engaging with the match. Same for Nemesis; his early game being dramatically improved and his already potent Tentacle Strike being bolstered, alongside reworking some of his addons to be genuinely powerful, really solidified his positioning and helped him engage with the game. They struggled before, the both of them, in ways they now do not."
I'm not asking for anything to be S tier. I'd even nerf the S tier killers personally. Bubba is still bad and could use buffs. I'm surprised you're using Nemesis addons as an example as basically all Nemesis mains will tell you that his addons are very bad and he is in desperate need of a huge addon overhaul. He has like 4 decent options with the rest being bad. Nemesis still needs buffs imo, just not around his tentacle. They both struggle less, but they still struggle. The goal isn't struggling less, it's not struggling. There's also a ton more killers I'd be more focusing on than these two though. Like half the roster is lower than them and needing help more so.
"Beyond that, all I feel inclined to say on the matter is that nightlight has proven to be quite wrong about killrate stats in particular, since recently we got the real stats and they were noticeably different. Per real stats, and also just by taking a step back and looking at how much has improved in what ways over the past few years, it's pretty obvious that killers are doing pretty damn well lately. "
The most recent stats we have for the lower performing killers from the devs generally supports this as well. I generally think kill rates are a bad metric for balance tbh, but just since it's what we're referencing. Seeing as the devs so rarely give us this data Nightlight seems the best we have to go on anyway though.
"We're just going to have to agree to disagree, it seems. "
I agree, we're not going to agree on this topic.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923448#Comment_3923448
If it's not your position, it's worth pointing out it is what you said. Everyone misspeaks sometimes so I won't drive that into the ground as a point if it is what happened, I'm just pointing it out, I was responding to what was in your post, which is that we see very little general improvements for killer and every improvement we see is matched with a nerf.
That statement was wrong. If you meant something else, fair enough, sincerely, but I can only respond to what's actually said to me.
As for what else you're saying, it sounds like you're holding things to odd standards. Killers don't need to move up a tier (for as much as that's actually arguable, considering how subjective tiers are) for their ability to engage with the game to be improved. Did Leatherface suddenly become S tier because of his buffs to tantrum and collision numbers? No, but it sure helped him a lot. Hell, those buffs arguably removed some counterplay from Leatherface, that's usually a pretty big deal in a vacuum.
Same for, say, Myers, or Nemesis. Some would argue Nemesis did jump up a tier (though I'd argue he's always been underrated and a solid A tier candidate), but both of those killers just got noticeable, welcome improvements to their early game in particular and their ability to engage with the game in general. That's not a failure, that's a pretty noticeable positive.
Similarly, whether or not a perk breaks into the meta is an insanely high and also weirdly skewed metric to use. There's plenty of good perks people don't use, for a whole variety of reasons; pickrate is far too affected by far too many things to be your sole metric for how good a buff was.
Perks like Machine Learning, Trail Of Torment, and Furtive Chase are legitimately pretty solid right now regardless of how many people actually run them, and that's sort of what I mean when I say there's a lot going on for players who engage with the game outside of unbalanced cheese strats like tunnelling. The breadth of what's viable to tinker with right now, from killers to perks to addons (depending on the killer, admittedly), is wider in scope than it's ever been. You just have to be willing to let go of multi-slowdown tunnelling setups to start experimenting with it, and accept that your gameplay's probably gonna have to improve as you adjust.
I'm not one to cite stats, typically, but I do want to at least float the notion that maybe killers are doing pretty well overall and performing about where BHVR wants them for the most part. I truly don't think it's a particularly reasonable position to say that killers aren't doing well right now without at least some examples of what you're even referring to.
It wasn't a misspeak, you misunderstood. You can quote me if you'd like and we can dissect my wording. I even looked back in case I had, I did not. You interpreted my wording as number of changes even though you could infer quality just as much as number. I think it's weird to interpret number anyway though as no ones measuring balance that way.
"which is that we see very little general improvements for killer and every improvement we see is matched with a nerf."
As I pointed out, this does not reference the number of changes but the quality. Tic for tac wording does not directly imply number.
"As for what else you're saying, it sounds like you're holding things to odd standards. Killers don't need to move up a tier (for as much as that's actually arguable, considering how subjective tiers are) for their ability to engage with the game to be improved. Did Leatherface suddenly become S tier because of his buffs to tantrum and collision numbers? No, but it sure helped him a lot. Hell, those buffs arguably removed some counterplay from Leatherface, that's usually a pretty big deal in a vacuum."
This is more arguing semantics. Yes tiers are subjective, but the general point is did their power level change substantially. We could argue tiers but the vast majority of people would in general agree that no they are not "substantially stronger". Most all those killers in anyone tier lists are still give or take within the same range.
"Same for, say, Myers, or Nemesis. Some would argue Nemesis did jump up a tier (though I'd argue he's always been underrated and a solid A tier candidate), but both of those killers just got noticeable, welcome improvements to their early game in particular and their ability to engage with the game in general. That's not a failure, that's a pretty noticeable positive."
The vast majority of people would not put Nemesis above B tier and I don't think I've seen a single tier list ever put Myers at even B. Anything in DBD B tier and below is in need of buffs and is weak. Below B needs substantial improvements. Even B tier killers are generally not competitive and require substantial mistakes from the survivors to win regardless of how well you play.
"Similarly, whether or not a perk breaks into the meta is an insanely high and also weirdly skewed metric to use. There's plenty of good perks people don't use, for a whole variety of reasons; pickrate is far too affected by far too many things to be your sole metric for how good a buff was."
That's why I put even just decently popular, not just meta. I'd argue most the perks they buffed didn't even make it to just "good" status. I'm not using pick rate as a sole metric. I'm also measuring actual value you gain by running them. Most are very little.
"Perks like Machine Learning, Trail Of Torment, and Furtive Chase are legitimately pretty solid right now regardless of how many people actually run them, and that's sort of what I mean when I say there's a lot going on for players who engage with the game outside of unbalanced cheese strats like tunnelling. The breadth of what's viable to tinker with right now, from killers to perks to addons (depending on the killer, admittedly), is wider in scope than it's ever been. You just have to be willing to let go of multi-slowdown tunnelling setups to start experimenting with it, and accept that your gameplay's probably gonna have to improve as you adjust."
Those perks aren't as good as you act like. I don't personally tunnel at all, but many killers are so weak they are forced to tunnel in certain matches. Like a Pig or Myers is absolutely getting wrecked against a good 4 stack unless they tunnel. Those types of killers are too slow to properly pressure the map without stacking slow downs either. I would not blame killers like those for tunneling me in a squad, they aren't winning otherwise.
"I'm not one to cite stats, typically, but I do want to at least float the notion that maybe killers are doing pretty well overall and performing about where BHVR wants them for the most part. I truly don't think it's a particularly reasonable position to say that killers aren't doing well right now without at least some examples of what you're even referring to."
Then I'll provide examples. Citing Nightlight since it's realistically all we have right now 3/4 of the killer roster are underperforming per BHVR's kill rate goals. This isn't just recently either, these numbers have been consistently below expectations for years.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923440#Comment_3923440
It'd be shifting the goalposts when your initial position was that we don't see very many killer buffs and that for every improvement we get, there's an equivalent nerf. Buffs outweigh nerfs quite heavily here, that's what I'm trying to demonstrate. BHVR buffing killers and their perks specifically for engaging with the fundamentals is very much the norm.
If you want to argue about the quality of the changes, I'm willing to do that, but we do need to acknowledge that wasn't what we started with.
For the record, while the perk buffs can be pretty hit or miss, all of those killer buffs were noticeable to my recollection. Some weren't particularly flashy - there are a good few just cooldown/duration tweaks in there - but they all helped the respective killers.
It's not as though killers are struggling right now, it's not 2019. There's a lot going for people who engage with the fundamentals skilfully.
"It'd be shifting the goalposts when your initial position was that we don't see very many killer buffs"
Because that was not my position.
"Buffs outweigh nerfs quite heavily here, that's what I'm trying to demonstrate"
They do not. I think I've supported this from my killer and perk examples.
"BHVR buffing killers and their perks specifically for engaging with the fundamentals is very much the norm."
They generally speaking have not. Which is why I asked for examples.
"For the record, while the perk buffs can be pretty hit or miss, all of those killer buffs were noticeable to my recollection."
The literally only killer out of all those buffs I can think of that even moved up out of their original tier was Freddy. That's not what I'd call "noticeable changes". Most all accomplished very little. Also, of all those perk buffs which are we seeing in the meta now or even just decently often for that matter? None. Nearly all of them went from bad perks, to less bad perks, but still bad. That's a failure.
"It's not as though killers are struggling right now, it's not 2019. There's a lot going for people who engage with the fundamentals skilfully. "
I'd very much disagree. Also, "a lot going on for people who engage with the fundamentals skillfully", I'd like even a single example to support that. I disagree again completely.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923417#Comment_3923417
At this point it sounds a little less like we haven't seen any buffs to improve killers, generally, and more like you're not personally a fan of the changes we did get.
Most of the killers who got buffs improved noticeably, Myers included. Is he perfect now? Hell no, there's still work to be done to modernise him. Did the buffs improve his ability to engage with the fundamentals of the game? Absolutely they did, his early game is significantly easier and that helps him get the ball rolling more smoothly.
As for more examples, sure, I'll go patch by patch.
This patch: Batteries Included, Furtive Chase, Game Afoot, Unbound all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game over tunnelling. Oni was also given a change that I think was meant to be a buff, but jury's out on how effective that was. However, this patch did nerf Ghoul noticeably and Houndmaster slightly, for the sake of accuracy. Also technically Doctor but like… barely. Imperceptibly.
Patch 8.6.0: Legion buffed considerably, Xenomorph buffed noticeably, Pig/Ghostface/Skull Merchant buffed lightly. Alien Instinct, Deathbound, Hysteria, Nemesis (perk) all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game. This patch also adjusted Eyrie and added Dead Sands to the Foresaken Boneyard realm, which you could argue was a killer buff overall, though that is admittedly a bit reductive. Blight and Hillbilly had their terror radius increased, which… up to you how you count that.
Patch 8.5.0: Freddy reworked. Beast of Prey, Fire Up, Remember Me all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game to some degree.
Patch 8.4.0: Demogorgon buffed lightly, Ghostface buffed noticeably, Vecna buffed lightly (albeit with a few nerfs as well), Wesker buffed lightly, Myers buffed noticeably. To be fair, this patch did also nerf Chucky, a few of these patches have been ups and downs with him so I've largely been leaving him out. Distressing, Dominance, Thrill, Human Greed, Languid Touch all buffed, though admittedly it's a stretch to say Distressing involves engaging with the fundamentals directly. Also to be fair, this patch did nerf Weave Attunement.
Patch 8.3.0: Blood Echo arguably buffed (slightly shorter duration, but no cooldown, could go either way) and Dead Man's Switch reworked (again, I'd argue this was a buff but some see it differently). Deathbound, Genetic Limits (via rework but way less arguable), Crowd Control, Leverage (via rework, ditto), Machine Learning, Predator (via rework, ditto), THWACK! all buffed, all perks for the fundamentals, etc. This patch also reworked Zanshin Tactics, personal opinion how good that was. To be fair, this was also the patch that gutted Skull Merchant and contained some light nerf/buff combos for Hillbilly and Unknown as well as lightly nerfing Twins.
Patch 8.2.0: Doctor buffed slightly, Dredge buffed slightly, Nemesis buffed considerably, Knight… QoL changes? Not sure how to count these. No perk buffs in this one, weirdly, but no nerfs either. I'll note this patch was the one that raised hook timers.
Patch 8.1.0: Darkness Revealed, I'm All Ears, Trail Of Torment, Oppression, Dragon's Grip, Machine Learning (the first time lol) all buffed, you know the drill. Knight reworked, Singularity buffed. This patch also contained some Chucky ping-ponging, and it also was the addition of hooks respawning after someone's sacrificed.
Patch 8.0.0: This patch did nerf Pain Res, Deadlock, Grim Embrace, and Pop, so fair enough. Those perks are hardly dead (save for maybe Pop), but that's besides the point of this list, they were in fact nerfed. Bubba buffed noticeably, Deathslinger buffed lightly. Wesker was nerfed lightly in this patch, and more Chucky ping-ponging.
I'm gonna stop there because I'm honestly getting bored swapping tabs to double check all this stuff, but you get my point. It might be tempting to say you don't think these changes were helpful enough, but I want to be explicitly clear that doing so would be shifting the goalposts. The point is, killers have received a very high number of buffs aimed specifically at making engaging with the fundamentals easier and more appealing, and there's no reason to assume that's going to stop any time soon.
Carrots are the norm, there's no reason to go out of your way to include bigger ones just because the stick's being brought a little closer.
"It might be tempting to say you don't think these changes were helpful enough, but I want to be explicitly clear that doing so would be shifting the goalposts. The point is, killers have received a very high number of buffs aimed specifically at making engaging with the fundamentals easier and more appealing, and there's no reason to assume that's going to stop any time soon."
I think you're misusing the phrase of shifting goal posts because that's not what's happening when I point out those changes weren't enough. The changes quality of impact is what you are trying to support, that IS the goal post.
What matters more, the quality of changes, or the number of changes? The number of changes is utterly irrelevant. The quality is what matters. Is Trapper now crazy buffed since he's received more buffs than any killer? No, he's still trash because the quality of those buffs were minor. I think measuring the importance of changes by the shear number is a flawed way of looking at balance. If most those changes were extremely minor and changed very little, why would we expect to see anything different going forward.
"Carrots are the norm, there's no reason to go out of your way to include bigger ones just because the stick's being brought a little closer."
We're fundamentally not going to agree. If we don't agree on what the problem is, we aren't going to agree on a solution.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923409#Comment_3923409
I'm afraid I'm gonna need you to be a bit more specific, sorry.
When I say that every (positive, at least) change that comes to the game is a buff to the killer playing fair, I'm referring to things like the killer's basekits being improved, which is very obviously geared towards those killers engaging with the fundamentals of the game and not leveraging balance issues for easier value. We've had a few of those at this point, is there a reason you'd say those don't count?
Similarly, I'd point to the perks that get buffed. Sure, the egregious slowdown gets nerfed (and also some of the not egregious ones, tbf), but recently we had buffs to Alien Instinct, a perk that is very much designed to improve the killer's ability to spread their pressure. Perk buffs like that are what you'd see to encourage the killer towards playing fair, and we do see those relatively frequently too- same question as before, is there something else you'd be looking for there?
If it's not improving the killer's baseline ability to engage with the game or a killer player's selection of viable perks for spreading pressure, what is it that we'd be seeing? Losing tunnelling wouldn't justify in particular really oppressive slowdown perks, and that's the only example I can think of for anything broadly getting weaker on the killer side.
The vast majority of all the specific killer improvements have left those killers still very bad. Like for just one example, did Myers get a rework/buff? Yeah he did. Did it realistically buff him much at all? No, it didn't. He moved a little higher up the F tier. You can repeat this for "most" of the killer specific changes, unless you have some counter examples to provide.
If you're referencing more general killer improvements they have all come with counter balancing negatives. Like for almost every single general killer improvement you could mention I could mention a nerf they received around the same time if not the same patch to offset that. I'm not going to be disingenuous to say that things haven't overall improved, they have, but I feel like you make it seem as if they've improved way, way more than they actually have. We're talking a small, small number here.
"Similarly, I'd point to the perks that get buffed. Sure, the egregious slowdown gets nerfed (and also some of the not egregious ones, tbf), but recently we had buffs to Alien Instinct, a perk that is very much designed to improve the killer's ability to spread their pressure. Perk buffs like that are what you'd see to encourage the killer towards playing fair, and we do see those relatively frequently too- same question as before, is there something else you'd be looking for there?"
Provide more examples then because I completely disagree with this. Alien Instinct is still barely ran by anyone because it's not that great. Literally I think the ONLY example I can think of off the top of my head that fits this over the last few years would be Grim Embrace and even that got nerfed recently. I'd even go further in the opposite direction with examples. They've nerfed perks that were primarily only used on m1 weaker killers, which are the hardest hit by these types of changes. Sloppy and STBFL being two prime examples that should've never been touched.
"If it's not improving the killer's baseline ability to engage with the game or a killer player's selection of viable perks for spreading pressure, what is it that we'd be seeing? Losing tunnelling wouldn't justify in particular really oppressive slowdown perks, and that's the only example I can think of for anything broadly getting weaker on the killer side."
You add base kit regression bonuses for spreading hooks and then nerf regression perks simultaneously to compensate. This also has the added bonus of diversifying the meta.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923400#Comment_3923400
The incentives and buffs that you're looking for there have been coming to the game steadily over the past few years and don't show any particular signs of stopping, so that's why I didn't include them in this post.
At this point, tunnelling does frankly only happen because it's the easiest shortcut to value in the game. There truly doesn't need to be dedicated killer buffs that are linked to this change because every single killer basekit and perk buff that happens is the equivalent carrot you're talking about. If this were to reach a real patch, you probably would see some buffs… because most patches recently have had that kind of buff, because "that kind of buff" is literally anything you'd care to improve, "not tunnelling" is the entire video game.
In short, I am addressing the reason why killers tunnel. I'm just not acknowledging the reason some players say is why they tunnel, because I don't think it's particularly reasonable or compelling.
"The incentives and buffs that you're looking for there have been coming to the game steadily over the past few years and don't show any particular signs of stopping, so that's why I didn't include them in this post."
I don't agree with this premise. Very little has been done and what has been done has come along with simultaneous other nerfs counteracting most of the positive.
"At this point, tunnelling does frankly only happen because it's the easiest shortcut to value in the game."
As long as you have this mindset the problem will never be solved. There will always be exceptions, but the majority does not do it for that reason. Most killers would rather play in the more "fair" way just going for hooks and whatever chase they run into but they don't, and it's not because it isn't the easiest.
"There truly doesn't need to be dedicated killer buffs that are linked to this change because every single killer basekit and perk buff that happens is the equivalent carrot you're talking about. "
We've seen very, very little of any of this.
"In short, I am addressing the reason why killers tunnel. I'm just not acknowledging the reason some players say is why they tunnel, because I don't think it's particularly reasonable or compelling."
You're addressing a "why" that isn't the reason why.
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I think the issue is more the procing traps without being in range of a hit. It should be. Wiping away traps should be the defacto counter play instead. Currently you can just keep running through her traps with no punishment.
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So I'm down for something like this, honestly I'd go even further than you did, the problem is you only addressed the survivor side, which is why people are probably down voting it a lot. This stuff is not an isolated change. You needed to add massive killer improvements simultaneously to go with this, but there was..nothing.
I'd like tunneling removed, but you need to also address why killers tunnel at the same time. You're essentially accomplishing the same mistake the devs are doing with a lot of their deterrents to tunneling/camping/slugging ect, which is addressing the symptoms instead of the core problem itself.
Killers need incentive to play the way you want them to, not just punishing them when they don't. They aren't going to play in a way that loses them the game. They need to make playing "fair" the most efficient play style or at least competitive. Give killers a reason to spread hooks around.
Less stick, more carrot.
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This would be bad for a whole slew of reasons.
You would make ridiculously long queue times for yourself and some killers would barely ever get to play as then you'd make their queue times long as well.
This is also trying to address the symptoms rather than the problem itself. The problem is lots of killers being way undertuned so many people don't want to play them. If you want to see variety the correct solution is buffing all those bad killers. That will make people play them.
I do also like the side idea some have had though of adding a BP bonus to individual killers based on play rate. So the lower they're played the more BP bonus they get to encourage people to play them. This is more supplemental though and wouldn't fix the problem by itself.
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No idea why this isn't already the case, it definitely should be.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922987#Comment_3922987
The thing is lower tier M1 killers won't have as much performance fluctuation as other mechanical skill based killers, so buffing them can make them suddenly unwinnable (not exactly but think about skull merchant), they are kinda hard to balance
That's the thing, it's all in how you buff them. Yeah just straight here's % increases would cause the problem you're referencing. However, buffs that require skill to utilize would not.
For just one example:
Knights guards gain extra move speed based on proximity of survivor to where you placed the guard when the Hunt begins. This doesn't do much for most Knight players, especially low mmr ones. However high skilled players that can use their hearing to gauge survivor location to try and place the guard right on top of them get rewarded. It's basically Spirit skill in hearing.
Now this doesn't have to be an exact idea, more to get the point across. Power increases that aren't just given to everyone but require a skill component in the killer. This is how we circumvent that issue.
There are tons more skill based buffs like this you could do for all the weak roster.
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I'm not sure why they're so hesitant to give heavy buffs to all the low tier m1's to get more people to play them.
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I’ve always ignored dailies since they weren’t rewarding enough to care about. Anything under 100k isn’t worth going out of my way.
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Yeah I was thinking it should be upped by a couple seconds.
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I had the same experience over a couple hours lol. Didnt see a single m1.
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With just the 20/20 change it still had some potential to survive, but yeah the aura reading completely kills the perk. Too much.
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Of all the perks that need buffs (and there's a ton) why would they buff Babysitter? A perk that didn't need buffs at all. If anything it was probably a tad overtuned.
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This is what I was thinking as well. The abandon feature to me is supposed to be to avoid toxicity, not to just get out of the game faster, which is what it is now.
As survivor how would it feel if as soon as the last gens powered the killer can just instant abandon and give yall the win? Yeah you win, but it sours the win as being very anticlimactic. You basically never get to actually see the normal end or running out the exit gate anymore.
It's like if you had a baseball game and the instant it's over, everyone leaves immediately. No announcements, no going on the field to shake hands, just instant leave. It kinda ruins the experience. Going out to shake the other teams hands and see the match off to its end is just good sportsmanship, not rubbing it in their faces.
The abandon feature needs to be for toxicity, not for just going next faster, that's bad design.
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I can see it for sure. A vine like whip for her weapon. Maybe she puts out plants that shoot projectiles that can be dodged.
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@Gibberish said:
Undertuned. His power is very high-risk, low-reward.
Plus his addons are just awful.
^ This. Reminds me of Pinhead. High skill/high risk/low reward.
A very overrated killer by the community imo and in need of significant improvements.
The duration to remove his Weakened is way too fast. You have to land a high skill shot, and then land a second one within a small time frame or the first one's removed and you gained nothing. It's also extremely punishing on those missed shots.
Needs the Weakened state removal time to be literally like doubled. Direct hits should also apply Weakened, not just a Hinder. You get punished currently for being more accurate, it's just silly. Reduced cooldown on teleport. Addon pass, too many bad ones.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
While it's true that the kick limits would make these perks less obnoxious than they once were I still don't think strong regression rates like this that can be obtained without downing/hooking a survivor is healthy design, and in some limited cases it would actually be better now than it was pre-nerf since gen-tapping hadn't been removed yet at that time. Call of Brine is a bad perk in its current state, but I would rather give it a rework that can make it both stronger and healthier, not just a number buff/revert
Yes it doesn't require hooking, but you underestimate the cost of kicking gens. That time to go over and kick throughout a match is not negligible and kills your momentum of pressure. Many of those other gen regression or blocking perks that require downing and hooking someone avoid this cost.
Gen tapping is quite negligible. In the vast, vast majority of circumstances it is significantly worse. The reason we rarely hit the gen regression limit now is not because it's a non factor, it's because people generally don't run the perks that would hit that limit in the first place. IE if these perks were buffed and people ran them they'd hit the limit significantly more often.
There's also the difference that to get their regression value they must be left alone for a significant amount of time, whereas the meta regressions are instant, there is time required to get their value, so as long as you down it's guaranteed.
So while yes they don't require downing or hooking, the cost of kicking over and over and the fact that they risk not even getting their value unless left alone for a considerable amount of time (in a landscape where you only have a limited amount of kicks) is a significant downside. So when people consider these just "free", they're not, and it's ignoring a lot of additional factors.
IE I don't see why with the regression limit in place these could be deemed "unhealthy" in design and needing a rework.
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Remove the 4%, it shouldn't exist. The 4% is primarily used right now as just a way to DC without the penalty.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921734#Comment_3921734
This is perfect thank you. I would like to add that if bhvr wants the guard the keep 1 busy the banner should be removed because with it currently in the game the survivor can just "distract" the guard via a window/pallet and then just grab the banner without any risk
Yeah so currently the guards are so weak that the banner shouldn't exist, it's counter play to something so weak that it doesn't need the counter play. Ideally though if they were to improve the guards capabilities how we're talking then the banner would be acceptable.
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Sac Wards just tell me they want as a fair a match as possible. That seems reasonable.
Red Mori's make me think they're gonna sweat. I'd personally prefer them removed entirely. They clog the web when I'm on killer from getting more ultra rare addons anyway.
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Onryo we've already talked about plenty, but yeah, addon rework and she needs a tape counter play (I'd prefer tape destruction on hit but without giving condemn). Only rewards skilled play and doesn't strengthen bad Onryos.
Hag needs an addon pass and wiping her traps away should be the counter play, not how you can max range run through and trigger her traps without getting punished.
Chucky needs an addon pass and Jumprope base kit. Controversial change but I'd like if they emphasized what makes him unique which is his size and third person by giving him base kit no red stain for loop mind games.
Nemesis desperately needs an addon pass and I wish they'd stop focusing his improvements on his whip. We already have a dozen killers with an anti loop ranged hit, the whip is just another reskin of all the others. What makes him unique is his zombies and that's what should be improved. They need significantly faster move speed and detection so that they're actually decent map pressure and you can play around them. You can even make it scale on infected survivors to only reward skilled play.
Unknown is a very overrated killer imo. High Skill/High Risk/Low Reward is what I think of here, similar to Pinhead. You have to successfully land a ranged hit with no reward yet and then land another and within a short time frame or now you need two hits again. The time it takes to remove Weakened needs to literally be doubled, it is removed way too fast for the skill required applying it in the first place. Airborn hits should also apply the Weakened, not just the Hinder, this is just silly. You're being punished for skilled hits. Shorten the teleport cooldown some to allow hit and run play style more.
Ghostface similar to what you said, hooked and slugged survivors should not be able to reveal him, this is just silly. He's clunky enough already. The delay of being broken out 2 seconds later after breaking LoS is also very annoying. I'd push for Drop-leg Knife Sheath base kit as that's never leaving my loadout but maybe I'm asking too much. He relies on haste in the build to function.
Twins needs a massive addon overhaul. Movespeed addons are too good to never not take them. Add a little base kit and change them to something else. All of the "crushing victor while dormant" are useless. He is rarely ever dormant. "Crushing Victor while attached" also useless. You don't want Victor on that many healthy people as your power is getting taken hostage. All the Victor crushing addons need to be just "crushing Victor", point blank, done. That means while attached, while dormant, or after a victor pounce. Now they're actually getting triggered often enough to matter at all. Most of their durations are also way too short. Broken for 20 seconds or Blind for 30 is irrelevant. Make both like 60 seconds. Victor being taken hostage also needs to be addressed. I understand they don't want instant returns, but walking around as an m1 killer with no power for lots of the match isn't fun. This is why many people don't play her. Make it while Victor is attached she's Undetectable or she has some haste, something. Playing Charlotte needs to be fun too, it's not. It's also very boring with how limited they are on perk choices since so many don't work on Victor.
Deathslinger is the forgotten ranged killer that's just way worse than the rest. Needs a massive addon pass. Give him 24 meter terror radius. Longer range. More chain durability for pull arounds. Faster base kit reload. His spear hitbox has two detections, one of survivors and one for collision. Slightly shrink the collision one and slightly increase the survivor one to give a little more leniency on shooting through holes. This type of high skill/high risk game play should be rewarded.
Dredge needs maps to have significantly more lockers when he's the killer. He is way, way too map reliant. Too many maps have lockers no where near gens.
Pig needs to see her boxes again. I used to love Pig playing her as a macro killer similar to Onryo. Not seeing her boxes destroyed her macro play. Now her traps are just a place and forget while you run around as a bad stealth killer with a bad anti loop. She lost what made her unique.
Myers needs the stalk limit per survivor removed. He can literally run out of his power, this is bad design.
Artist, lockers shouldn't remove birds. This destroys the long range snipe game play. The skill is in dodging, not just fast vaulting lockers to remove the power. I'd improve her long range snipe game play which is what people enjoy and weaken her anti loop which is what everyone hates and finds boring.
Vecna needs shorter cooldowns again. He's just a worse Dracula in all aspects.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921510#Comment_3921510
Yeah the guards are in a weird spot. If you get to close to a survivor while the guard is chasing he will end his chase really fast. I get it there has to be a balance of course but I am not sure what that would be. I do know he needs a bit more basekit when it comes to his addons. He is very addon reliant. @Blueberry is on a very impressive kill streak with him right now. Last I checked 165+ win streak hahaha.
Yeah we're doing well at 165 and still going, but with a caveat (recordings are still on my twitch atm). For Knight to be good atm it requires you playing in ways the survivors will not deem "fun" most of the time. If you play him how he's intended by the developers to be played, he's very bad and as @XDgamer018 mentioned he's very addon reliant still. I've backed off MotR and Dried Horsemeat some though. You can get away not using MotR since their changes and I don't want horsemeat base kit because while it would help the guards get hits, they need to have more player input involved for the hits as players will not just want AI's reliably getting hits without skill involved from the Knight. The goal is not just more reliable guard hits, it's more reliable guard hits that require skilled input from the Knight.
My circumvent for guards getting more reliable hits but making it require skill is adding a feature to his guards that make their speed scale based on proximity to the survivor when they're detected and the Hunt starts. So just normal Knight players throwing guards out will get no value from this, but if your hearing is really good (similar to Spirit) you can time your placements to be as close to on top of them as you can and be rewarded for it. This would allow the guards potential hits, but only if you're skilled enough. Knights needed a higher skill ceiling anyway. This also makes AI hits more reasonable to survivors as you know that if the guards were moving fast enough to hit you it's because their was player skill involved between you two, not free. This would also make people use the actual banners more as currently the guards are so bad/slow that most people just run out the timer instead of using the intended banner counterplay.
Now Town Watch's Torch and Call to Arms absolutely need to be base kit. Call to Arms should have been made base kit in his last rework, no idea why it wasn't. It's also the quintessential addon that enables the exact play style that they want you to be doing with him. Town Watch's Torch is the other component to enable the play style they want. They don't want you pincering, they want you doing macro play having a guard keep one busy while you chase another. Torch enables this play style. Without Torch you are keeping one survivor busy while you walk across the map as an m1 with realistically no mobility (the 5% haste is negligible) and no power to chase someone down…that is not viable or more importantly fun for that matter. You're just gonna get pre ran with hold W game play and looped to oblivion. Torch circumvents the hold W game play and gets you the hits as basically a stealth killer. It's kinda similar to Twins issue as far as fun is concerned, people don't like losing their power and having to play a bunch of the game as an m1 walking around chasing people with no power, it's boring.
These problems essentially leave your addon slots permanently locked down with no flexibility to use other things. Which I suppose isn't too bad in Knights current addon state as the vast majority of his addons are D tier useless anyway, but we're trying to be theorcrafting in a hypothetical world where his addons were improved and decent as well so we can have multiple options of things to run. You can see some ideas of what I'm talking about here:
@Blueberry said:
How do y'all feel about The Knight currently? Both in terms of power and fun, against and as. Changes you'd like?
He's a killer I've always wanted to like but just feels so incomplete.
- Call to Arms still needs to be base kit. I can't emphasize this enough. He actually has some more interesting addons now, but one addon slot is basically permanently closed as you must take Call to Arms. This is even more emphasized now that they have pushed his split pressure play style even more.
- I really think Knight suffers from too low of a skill ceiling and needs some form of skill expression added into his kit. I think we could do this by having his guards movespeed scaled based on proximity of detection to the survivor. IE the closer the survivor is to exactly the initial place spot when the survivor is detected the faster the guard is. This rewards the Knight if he better able to gauge the survivors location through his hearing when trying to place it on them. You can even add a stipulation of it only functioning when The Knight is at least 24 meters away or something so this is non existent if he's trying to place it at a loop. This would increase his skill ceiling a lot.
- Town Watches Torch really needs to be base kit. Without this addon you're literally a killer that just keeps 1 person busy as you walk around as an m1 killer with no power. Not only is this boring but its weak. Torch actually gives you some play potential from the Undetectable. You can basically never take this addon off.
While we got some well improved addons, there's still many severely lacking I'd like to look at.
Knights Contract - Causes a Guard to linger around for 8 seconds after completing a Guard Order, triggering a Hunt, should he detect a Survivor in that time.
This just feels so irrelevant and I can't think of why you'd want to run this. Give it an additional affect that your guard kicks now apply your perks as well. Now it's solid. We still have a gen kick limit so this doesn't seem overbearing at all.
Blacksmiths Hammer -Causes Survivors damaged by a Guard during a Hunt to suffer from the Broken status effect for 60 seconds.
Guards realistically do not get hits. These effects are irrelevant. Unless we implement my #2 change from above this needs to be changed. Make it so The Knights basic attacks while another survivor is being hunted apply the Broken for 60 seconds. Done. Easy.
Broken Hilt - Survivors damaged by a Guard suffer from the Hemorrhage and Mangled effect for 70 seconds.
Again, same problem. Guards realistically don't get hits. Fix is the same as Blacksmiths Hammer. The Knights basic attack while a survivor is being hunted apply the affects. Done. Easy.
Flint and Steel - After summoning the Carnifex , The Knight can see the auras of survivors within 24 meters of downed pallets for 8 seconds.
Completely useless. Pallets are basically never left down. Keep the effect, reduce the radius substantially to like 8 or 10 meters and make it either destroyed pallets or pallets still up. This makes it either really good early and bad late or bad early and really good late. It's also only 1/3 guards.
Healing Poultice - After summoning the Assassin, all survivors within 8 meters from the guards initial position have their aura revealed for 8 seconds.
This is almost never seeing value. It's again only 1/3 guards as well. The range of reveal needs to be upped substantially.
Jailer's Chimes - After summoning the Jailer, survivors that cross his patrol path have their aura revealed for 8 seconds.
This is literally a meme. Drop the aura reveal to like 4 seconds but make it just trigger on any survivor coming within like 8 meters of the patrol path. Again, we have to keep in mind that this is only 1/3 guards, not them all.
Sharpened Mount - Increases the time it takes for the banner to spawn by 15%.
No one takes this and no one would even if we increased the number. Make it so the banner also emits a 32 meters TR. This would at least give some more perk synergy and allow for more mind games.
A lot of his specific guards effects are way undertuned. Their power level hasn't taken into account that it's basically only activating every 3rd guard you send out since most the effects are only on 1 type of them. Also, effects that are applied on guard hits are utterly worthless unless guard hits are improved. Currently guard hits happen so rarely for these types of addons to have no purpose. This is why part of my supposed changes was making those affects be applied by the Knight on his m1's if he gets the hits while a guard is in chase. You could even add a stipulation that it only applies them on survivors hit that aren't in Hunt to discourage pincering if you want.
Also would it really be that big a deal if guards applied perks on gen kicks as well? I don't think so, and it would open up more unique builds.
Anyways I'm ranting, we can talk more about Knights issues further or what I'm doing to make him work atm if anyone's interested but that's enough for a single post lol.
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For a very, very good reason. We’ve had no dc penalties before and it was very bad.
We also need to remove the 4% allowing people to rage quit. This is basically just a dc that lets people circumvent the penalty at the moment.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921132#Comment_3921132
I think both you and OP here are correct.
It's frankly absurd to have MMR for new killers be partial to your best performing Killer. It's also nonsensical to ONLY have MMR for Survivors increase on escapes while it only increases/decreases on Killers based on kills - so Killers therefore always end up facing way harder battles later while Survivors always seem to get stuck with awful teammates. It feels really bad too that you lose MMR more slowly than you gain.
Why not just make it linear and based on some other metric? I'll never understand…Yeah I agree with you. I think mmr should decay too. Like if I havnt played a killer in 6 months their mmr should be crashed. I find it very annoying trying to learn a new killer I’ve basically never touched when my first match trying them is against a squad with 20k hours because of my mains mmr..it’s silly. That’s not an atmosphere to learn.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919575#Comment_3919575
Yeah, that is a good point.
Solo Q teammates are sometimes really greedy.
But, somewhere (not sure where) I heard that the safest place a survivor can be is on hook. Not sure if it's accurate, but still.
Id probably say it’s on the ground slugged lol.
What category of perks do you think people want more of? Like chase, gen perks, info ect. I feel like it’s hard to please when everyone’s sick of all of those.
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This perk could not even be a hex perk and it would still be mediocre, that’s how bad it is. Compare it to Rapid Brutality, a similar affect..but also a hex..and an 8 basic hit requirement…
Makes no sense why this one has all these requirements and the other doesn't. Lots of killers don't care about losing bloodlust so it's largely irrelevant. Would Rapid Brutality be good if it was a hex and the bloodlust removal was taken away? No, it would be trash, that's why this perk is bad.
If it’s gonna stay a hex remove the hit requirement entirely. Even then, might still need number improvements to be decent.
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"Why are killers mmrs separate and start at zero?"
They realistically aren't, and they don't.
Based on what they've told us and my own personal experience, even a killer I've never played once will still be at like 90% the mmr of my main.
A killer they've never played should start significantly lower than what they do currently. They're keeping them so close currently that separate mmr doesn't realistically exist.
In the same way we see some killers overperforming, there are a lot underperforming (like the majority of the roster) if their data is even remotely close to nightlights.
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They should scale in speed and detection based on survivors infected. They should provide significantly better map pressure and info than they currently do.
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Nemesis needs buffs, not nerfs. B tier and below killers do not need nerfs.
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@terumisan said:
shouldn't they just make his zombies stronger by making their detection/detection better instead?
but i'm not a nem main
^ This. What Nemesis needs is significantly better zombies you can actually play around. Buffs to their speed and detection based on infected survivors.
The last thing we need is more dash killers.