Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Devil_hit11 said:
greyletter is stating his opinion on exhaustion. He doesn't think that 50% haste perks that trigger every single chase is fair. many players have had shared opinion that that the perk design is broken and unfair. A long time ago, I remember Ohtofu mentioning that he would not mind if all exhaustion perk were nerfed the ground. @Blueberry has also shared that opinion on forums in the past that he thinks that exhaustion perks are too strong and mandatory for competitive survivor success.
Yeah I've been saying this for years that Exhaustion perks have flown under the radar way over tuned. I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though. I simply think (generally speaking, there are a couple exceptions) that they're not only over tuned but also unhealthy design. They're just always universally good. There's never a logical reason to not bring them other than just for the funsies.
Grey touches on it a bit but when you look at them perk for perk compared to other perks in the game the amount of value they give just blows everything else out of the water. It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
Then we get to the unhealthy part. We look at meta killer perks and what do most of them all have in common? They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements ect ect. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Was that an exhausting list to go through to get killer meta perk value? Whew
Alright let's look at survivor Exhaustion perks in general. What do "most" of them share? None of any of that.
We'll take Lithe for example since it's the most popular one. Requirement, find a vault…yup..that's it. The things that are literally everywhere. No negative, no skill requirement, no cap on activation's for the game..nothing but a small cooldown for game swinging effects.
I just don't see how anyone that is genuinely impartial and unbiased can look at this and not see a problem or at least a strong double standard in perk design. If Exhaustion perks were balanced like killer perks each Exhaustion perk activation would requirement an amount of gen progress, or a hook rescue, or an amount of healing done. Something like that.. at the bare minimum.
This also isn't even getting into the abysmal state of all the "anti Exhaustion" killer perks and addons that are just completely awful. This should be the best time to ever run any of them seeing as you can guarantee all 4 survivors will be running Exhaustion perks yet no one uses them. So even in the anti Exhaustion perks best case scenario..they are still trash..that should tell us how bad they are if even in their best case scenario they still aren't worth running. The anti Exhaustion perks and addons are just generally way too restricted with excessively long cooldowns or duration's that are way too small.
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At the end of the day, even if it's randoms, it is a 1v4. That's why it needs to be balanced as such. People wanting the game balanced as a 1v1v1v1v1 is why we have the balance problems we do.
The challenge is balancing it as a 1v4 but still allowing the 1v1 interactions to be good experiences. Not easy.
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I find the game play one dimensional and not much room for skill expression.
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Because the primary way she’s good is boring for both sides. I find her anti loop just forces a hold w play or you get put in a lose/lose scenario. Super binary gameplay with little skill expression for anyone.
What makes her actually fun for both sides is skilled long range sniping. However against good survivors who can just insta jump in lockers this is rendered not that effective. Lockers removing crows shouldn’t be a thing, it should be who’s the better at predicting movement or dodging.
If they nerfed her anti loop but buffed her sniping capability she would be significantly more popular. The strong way to play her at the moment just isn’t fun or skillful for anyone, including herself.
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As others have said WGLF doesn’t need buffs, it’s very good. It’s currently just being overshadowed by Buckle Up + FTP. If that wasn’t overtuned as it currently is you’d see WGLF much more.
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You had two scenarios where you could've held w to the next loop when he was dropping his guard but instead decided to stay at the loop and get pincered. Both misplays. More difficult in a map corner though.
That said, it's also not fair to the Knight when this is his play at the center of the map and you can just hold w there easily to the next loop. He has no counter play there. I'd argue The Knight has more loops where he just loses with no counter play than he has ones that are free hits.
Knight does need changes though.
A lot of your other examples of killers do have counter play as well.
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I'm running into people abusing this a lot as well. I saw it listed in the bugs section so they are aware and looking into it.
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Not enough. It just needs the negatives removed entirely. It's not good enough to warrant buffing the Obsession.
Just keep the stacking effect per token, but if the Obsession dies it just pauses where it's at like stbfl, it doesn't deactivate. This wouldn't even make it "good", just okay enough to not be trolling to run it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703293#Comment_3703293
yes but they also shadow nerfed twins. it is that her cooldown to regrow victor is worse. they reverted her changes but did not revert her nerfs.
Yeah that nerf does suck, but at least she got a bunch of other buffs and Weighted Rattle is quite strong now.
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Knight - CtA, MotR
Dredge - Haddies Calendar, Boat Key
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Yeah he feels forgotten. He's needed improvements for a long time now.
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It's ping related, not hit box. We get posts questioning their hitboxes regularly throughout the past years and years on the forums.
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@Xernoton said:
This is either the healthiest or second healthiest killer meta we've had so far. GE, Pop and Pain Res only work as a reward for the killer playing well. Meaning, your counterplay is to stop them. The longer you last in chase, the longer it takes the killer to activate their slowdown perks and the more likely your team is to finish gens that were close to getting done before they can be stopped.
The only problematic perk out of the bunch is Deadlock. It has no downsides, it works without any input from the killer and it has no counterplay.
When the devs nerf the current killer meta (which they will eventually), then they will introduce a new meta and considering how bad this went the last time, I'm not looking forward to that.
While I agree with all your points here, including about Deadlock. Deadlock is currently a required unhealthy perk as it's one of the few counters to just pre dropping pallets which also has no counter play for most killers, hence why those teams do it. We can only fix Deadlock once "most" loops are playable for m1 killers when the pallet is dropped, and we're way off from there.
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@CodeDB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703796#Comment_3703796
You don't have to, I was just seeing if you had actual data because I find those breakdowns interesting.
You're perfectly fine to rely on your anecdotal experience, I was just under the impression it was actual data by how you presented it. My bad!I would say it's actual data. To be defined as data by definition it simply needs to be recorded, which it is in my videos. I agree a spreadsheet would be more digestible though. As far as written down data goes I'm currently mainly only recording my Onryo data. Wins, Losses, Ties ect. So if you'd like that data I can provide it, but not exactly the conversation on this page. Also some preliminary data on Survivor, Dredge and Plague. By Preliminary I mean low sample size so far since recording. I generally want the numbers substantially higher to be used for conclusions.
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@CodeDB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703772#Comment_3703772
No, your data. I assume they're referencing the kill statistics recently released which we know is contentious at best.
Do you have data to back up your breakdown though?Do I have to have recorded the data on a spread sheet for my thousands and thousands of hours to be valid? I know the results of my time whether it's written down or not.
I stream regularly with all the vids recorded on my page if you'd like to see that.
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@CodeDB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703763#Comment_3703763
May I see the data?
The data they're referencing?
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702969#Comment_3702969
How could anyone get such an image of the game balance? The game is obviously balanced around low skilled killers and playing as a 4man swf. Data showed that pretty good.
After over 10k+ hours in the game playing both sides, I trust my judgement here. That also is not what the data shows.
At low mmr the game is killer sided.
Mid/average MMR it's pretty balanced.
High MMR it's very survivor sided.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702971#Comment_3702971
pretty sure the reason why a lot of killer are reliant on add-on's is because survivor dislike many of the killer designs. So it is like a lot of killer are self-nerfed but in order to make killer not unplayable bad, the dev put add-on's to make them playable. sometimes though, they don't even put an add-on, so they're just plain bad. Stuff like freddy snares slowing him down. deathslinger having a slow scope, no add-on to fix or 32 meter tr which is gated by an add-on that forces you to scope entire game. stuff like that.
as freddy or slinger loved by survivors when they were stronger? Nope. that is why they're bad.
Yup, unfortunately. They feel unnecessarily held back and we're stuck using addons/perks to fix it.
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@Rajbow2023 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703275#Comment_3703275
Could you recall Victor from a downed survivor in the PTB ? I don't really remember. If not, then you probably won't be able to recall them from an injured one as well.
I actually can't remember either. If you can't recall him while attached to healthy survivors that's a big L and these changes solve none of their problems. If you can recall them, this is game changing.
I hope we can, otherwise it's just some super small and feel good QoL that doesn't move their spot on a tier list. Being able to recall Victor from an attached survivor would shoot them up in the tier lists. Bluntly put, as long as survivors are able to take Victor hostage and you can't just recall them Twins will never be popular. People do not enjoy having their power taken hostage. That's a core issue of why no one plays them. Second issue being the annoyance of having to walk over to pick someone up every time you down them..which is for sure still in the game.
That new Weighted Rattle though..S tier. Super excited to use that. Still have like half their entire addon list as basically completely useless..which is disappointing they weren't touched.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703363#Comment_3703363
brutal strength is like anti-fun looping perk for survivor because the killer that use it only use it to zone pallet breaks in the corner of the map. it is free hit if killer has correct movement logic so your disincentives from using certain pallets when the killer has it. Lethal pursuer is probably my favourite perk as survivor to face. I love it when killers use a perk that disappears faster then hex totems. the perk screen always makes me chuckle when I see Lethal pursuer.
Yeah I think Lethal is way overrated as well.
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Not quite meta but popular. I think Endurance and Brutal Strength are ridiculously overrated. They’re feel good perks that I think people feel have way more of an impact than they actually do compared to alternatives.
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@BlackRabies said:
Might have been fine to let Charlotte keep the 10% haste, but change it a little so she only gets it while chasing the survivor that has Victor attached to em. Makes the pair work together in a way and it makes sense lore wise.
Well it sounds like they kept the “recall Victor at any time thing” so they should no longer be able to take him hostage if I’ve got that right.
Still kinda stuck if they locker jump cross map though. Not much you can do there. -
Feels really, really small for an entire mid chapter update. Hopefully we still have the “recall Victor at any time”, meaning no longer can Victor be taken hostage. As well as the reduced stun on downing a survivor with them. If we have all that as well Twins should feel much better for newer players wanting to try them. Unfortunately just jumping in a locker will still be a thing though.
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No they should remain not counting as hooks as that’s one of the main benefits they have. It also comes with negatives for the killer as well.
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Thana does need to be reverted back to its last version. This current version is terrible, even on its best killers.
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No. The killer should be balanced well at base and addons should be there to create new play styles or enhance areas you’d prefer. Unfortunately we have the current issue where many, many killers are reliant on addons that should be in their base design.
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It’s balanced around solos playing at a lower skill bracket so you’re fine. The game isn’t balanced around playing with friends on coms even though you can.
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How is sluggin toxic? If you don’t like slugging for the 4K then remove hatch.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
I can handle killers bringing all the slowdown and playing ruthless. What gets on my nerves is useless team mates.
I played several solo queue games yesterday and out of about seven to eight games I think I had one match where my team mates were decent.
When I say decent I mean they did gens, they went for hook saves etc. I don't expect my team mates to be amazing loopers or anything. Just be doing something when the killer isn't on you.
Yeah I agree with this. Very rarely are any of issues related to the killer or how he’s playing. The majority of the time my frustrations are just bad teammates.
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@jonifire said:
Interesting. I would have never tested this, but I noticed that survivors always ran in the right directions while I was invisible, which was weird. At least I no longer have to try only for survivors knowing exactly where I go. Thank you for sharing this.
Please behavior fix this, the invisible buff is actually a nerf and while you look at it, revert reikos watch back to 50% even with the base invisibility increase to 1,2s.
Yeah it explains even more why her mind games never seemed to work, because they weren't.
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702499#Comment_3702499
It would not include them as he speficially asked for peole themselfs being tunneled. Thats not how stochastics work.
Yes and the hypothetical other people that could be being tunneled that are not "themselves" would be taking the survey too.
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702477#Comment_3702477
Just at his own games, but not in his survey. And thats the critical point, why the survey isnt useful for his conclusion on prevalance.
His own games data does show results as well. Also, that survey would include the other people hypothetically on your team when they're taking the survey as well.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699846#Comment_3699846
One notable thing Scott did not take into account, that I saw, was OTHER people being tunneled.
I, personally, get tunneled somewhat often. Not every game, not infrequently. I imagine it has something to do with P100 and not being good lol.
HOWEVER, I see tunneling more frequently than that. I might not know the nuance, but three hooks on one player before anyone else gets hit is a pretty easy case to solve.
"For my experiment I included anybody getting tunneled" Literally quoted from the video.
So he did take into account other people being tunneled and says that it was included in the data.
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Actual rework, not just buffs or tweaks? Freddy and SM
Lots of killers with issues but most can be fixed through tweaks, buffs or QoL.
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There's been a significant increase in the amount of cheaters, especially the subtle ones.
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I updated the original post with a second video demonstrating the second bug with Onryo.
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I actually disagree with the premise. I don’t see slugging for the 4k as any less fun. If anything I find it more fun. I can objectively do more on the ground than I can on a hook and the added benefit of possibly not losing a health state. I would always rather be slugged. Also a side note, running Surge can be counterintuitive as given it’s a 32 meter radius it can basically tell survivors where you and the downed survivor are at even if they don’t see the auras.
You are correct about the added time efficiency of not hooking though. People underestimate how much time is wasted through pick up, carry and hook animations. Just slugging adds up to like an extra perk or two worth of gen slow down through how much more time efficient you are.
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Best looking skin she has. Autobuy for me.
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@Marc_123 said:
I like indoor maps and hope we get some more.
If the vampire theory is correct i hope we get a real castle map.
I was just thinking about those speculations going around. Really worried a castle map will be like a "courtyard around a semi main building" type map, again. I really want it to be an actual indoors castle map if the speculations are true, that would be so cool.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700914#Comment_3700914
I also started using remote control, to have an eye on my hexes (I play her with only hexes). It‘s good, but I wouldn‘t cal it strong tho.
It‘s a shame what they did to ring drawing, it was such a cool unique addon and it should have never been removed.
Yes well water would make it better, but I think they should in general remove the red stain if she flickers instead.
Newspaper: I still don‘t understand why there is a difference between manifest and demanifest flicker. Both should be the same and either reikos watch or newspaper should get the effect with 50%.
Agree with iri tape and tape edeting deck, both help the survivors and I hope we one day get 1.0 Sadako with passive condemned back. Iri tape I just want the OG version of it.
"I also started using remote control, to have an eye on my hexes (I play
her with only hexes). It‘s good, but I wouldn‘t cal it strong tho."Oh I definitely would. It's clutch. You can see examples of what I mean in my games if you still doubt. You'll see what I'm talking about with cutting off tape drops and knowing when to TV spam. I personally play her with a full hex build as well. It's kinda meme'y but works. I like making them juggle secondary objectives by adding the totems on top of the condemn.
"It‘s a shame what they did to ring drawing, it was such a cool unique addon and it should have never been removed."
Yeah I actually liked the old version. Spreading Condemn on heals was so unique. Wish we had it back.
"Yes well water would make it better, but I think they should in general remove the red stain if she flickers instead."
That could work as well!
"Newspaper: I still don‘t understand why there is a difference between
manifest and demanifest flicker. Both should be the same and either
reinos watch or newspaper should get the effect with 50%."I guess they wanted more benefits on Demanifest since you can't hit them. I agree with your point though.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700898#Comment_3700898
Yep, her strongest addon is bloody fingernails, which is sad. All her addons are kinda meh.
Totally agree on Fingernails. It is a complete auto lock for me, it's too good. If an addon is too required to ever drop it should just be base kit. I personally think her other best addon is Remote Control. So much good info for intercepting tape drops and to see if anyone's ignoring an active TV on them. Not to mention mind games in chase. I've got so many downs and kills from Remote Control alone. These two are what I always run, they're too good compared to anything else.
Most the addons are bad yeah. All the purples are trash. Ring Drawing should be base kit to encourage hooking. If Well Water was base kit her Manifest/Demanifest would have some better mind games around high wall loops. Similar to Newspaper. Iridescent Videotape actively harms you as a meme addon..but it's her Iri..not a grey like every other killer. Super annoying. I'd actually even argue Tape Deck actively hurts you as well.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700830#Comment_3700830
I can see it not fixing stacking regression in a sense, as I could simply rotate Survivors and still stomp them at 5 gens with 8 hooks keeping all my regression. I think this would still give those players enough time to at least feel like they played the game though. Plus it would fix the more egregious stacking slowdowns and tunneling combined.
Agreed on Thana. I tried to prevent it from being gutted back in 6.1, but sadly we got the worst possible version.
As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated. It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of starting at max power. It can be a real pain when taken to extremes with stacking it on top of Thana and Penti though. If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone."As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated.
It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff
scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of
starting at max power."We could remove the buff to the Obsession component but also make only alternating hooks count towards the tokens. So if you ever hook the same person in a row it doesn't give a token.
"If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as
Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due
to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for
Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone."I mean I feel this situation isn't even worth mentioning as it's extremely niche. You have to be completely outplaying them first and then they can just cleanse removing the Thana component. Also assuming they cleanse the totem. Also going most the entire match to begin with having no real slow down. There's just so many things that would have to go just right for this scenario and even then you could be throwing the game trying this. Unless the point is just griefing? I mean back when we had the old versions we could do just this scenario and I never once, not a single time saw anyone do this.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700887#Comment_3700887
Yeah at least they could introduce some of the old mechanics back with the addons. For example tape editing deck was already bad after the first rework, but had some use, why doesn‘t give this addon passive condemned to tapes.
Yeah I've seen a lot of people think Tape Editing Deck is not only good but one of her better addons in Sadakos current iteration. It's very bad. I think a lot of the people that think Tape Editing Deck is good don't actually play much Sadako. The simpler solution would be as you said to give passive Condemn back to holding a tape as there's also currently zero negative to just sitting on a tape.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700706#Comment_3700706
The thing with her addons is, she once had good addons, but they all became bad/worse/outdated through the reworks: Iri tape, ring drawing, tape editing deck, vcr, rickety pinwheel, reikos watch, yoichis fishing net, sea soaked cloth.
It's weird how after they reworked her they didn't touch so many of her addons that fundamentally functioned with her old kit and don't make sense with the new one.
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@jonifire said:
I also wish we would get them back. SBMM makes most players only sweat. Seeing the rank in lobbies would be great. It would also be fun to grind for it.
Yeah, not seeing even our own rank/mmr is just such weird design. Every other game shows this in the form of Plat/Gold/Silver ect. It gives people something to grind for. So much missed potential for this game not having this and with ranked rewards. I personally think it's silly not to show this in post game lobby as well, but at least see our own. Most of the DBD community wants to see this so we can all stop having to guess everything.
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These would all be really bad for the health of the game.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700856#Comment_3700856
I'm guessing you joined later when more perks were introduced. But you have to remember that the "good" perks like Pop, didn't exist, ruin didn't exist. Yeah the old STBFL existed along with unrelenting, but that didn't last very long at all before they were reworked.
No, I didn't. I've been around since near the games release. There were many, many better perks.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700461#Comment_3700461
Back then there were far less useful perks. The OG meta because of sabo was to use agitation so you could hook people in the basement.
"Back then there were far less useful perks."
I disagree completely. I was there.
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I like this idea. If we buff more of all the other regressions like you said to compensate. Still doesn't fix the regression stacking issue unfortunately though.
Poor Thana, just revert it to the previous version. They gutted it so bad. In its best case scenario on Legion or Plague in the old version it was very good but even in those best case scenarios it still wasn't "better" than that times current regression meta perks, just good enough to be competitive with them and that was only on those two killers. It was only average on the rest the roster, and that was the previous version. The current one is bad imo even on Legion or Plague.
Dying Light is still bad. They need to remove the buff it gives to Obsession, now it's alright. Alright, not even great.
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The silencing of locker teleports would also be so huge. Being able to teleport mid chase for mind game cut offs would make it SO much more fun. Plus it would make the survivors have to pay attention to what lockers they're looping near.
Lots of great ideas people are adding on this page. Dredge is so close to greatness with just some small tweaks.