Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710738#Comment_3710738
Comparing an aura build to a gen slowdown build is doing nothing for the argument, one way or another. There is no counter to gen regression. If a killer brings a regression build, Survivors better know how to loop or they're pretty much DoA.
I can see how you feel Distortion unhealthy. But Distortion = Lightborn, mostly. Lightborn is a smidge stronger, but they're pretty much on par. LB stops survivors from doing the one thing they can to save their mate from being hooked. You saying it is better related to nullifying all exhaustion perks is over reaching. Lightborn shuts down all sources of Blind, 100%. Distortion shuts down all sources of Aura reading, often but not 100%. Big distinction. Removing all exhaustion perks is not at all equivalent to Distortion or Lightborn. Its just straight up over powered and suits your needs, so you type it. If you really believe this, you're simply out of touch with the game.
Finally, "You're conflating two things that aren't the same again. (← You've been doing that this whole time also, btw) A killer power turning off a perk and a perk turning perks off are not the same thing.
Sigh. Yes, yes it is. If a perk gets nullified or disabled by anything other than the perk itself, it's still the same result. Killer power doesn't just get a free pass because its a killer power. If something turns something else off, it should be looked at and asked "Is this over or underpowered?" Source shouldn't matter imo. Though I'd like opinions on this take. I'm not 100% I convinced myself of this. Need more input. Thanks!
"There is no counter to gen regression. If a killer brings a regression
build, Survivors better know how to loop or they're pretty much DoA."There is a counter and you stated it. It's get good at the game. It doesn't require an item or perk, it's literally just learning how to loop and extend chases. Saying learn how to loop or you're DoA is like saying if you aren't good at the game you lose. Yes, if you aren't good at the game you lose.
"I can see how you feel Distortion unhealthy. But Distortion = Lightborn"
Yes, and as I stated earlier I feel the same way about Lightborn. I'd change Lightborn too. That said, making this direct comparison isn't quite the same. Lightborn is countering Background Player and Flashbang which currently also have no counters. That's basically the only reason you're seeing Lightborn right now. If those two perks didn't exist in their current uncounterable state no one would be using Lightborn other than new or bad players. Your whole argument here only makes since if I didn't think Lightborn was designed bad and I was okay with it, but I'm not. Both should be changed. Trying to argue Distortion is okay because Lightborn exists as it does is whataboutism.
"Distortion shuts down all sources of Aura reading, often but not 100%"
The only time it's not 100% is when you're getting to 3 aura perks at least, many times 4. Even if you do break it with 3 it's still blocking like 90% of them.
"Removing all exhaustion perks is not at all equivalent to Distortion or
Lightborn. Its just straight up over powered and suits your needs, so
you type it. If you really believe this, you're simply out of touch with
the game."You're assuming intent behind my statements when you're wrong about it. I highly doubt I'm out of touch with the game when I'm creeping towards 11,000 hours invested and play this game weekly on both sides way more than a full time job. Instead of being condescending towards me about that statement, actually give me a reason why I'm wrong instead.
"Finally, "You're conflating two things that aren't the same again. (← You've been doing that this whole time also, btw) A killer power turning off a perk and a perk turning perks off are not the same thing."
No, I am not. I'm comparing things that are alike.
"Sigh. Yes, yes it is. If a perk gets nullified or disabled by anything other than the perk itself, it's still the same result"
Looking at just the result being the same and not what it takes to get that result isn't an accurate way of looking at it. That's like looking at kills or escapes in dbd and ignoring how the game arrived there. It's a flawed metric to look at blindly.
"Killer power doesn't just get a free pass because its a killer power. If
something turns something else off, it should be looked at and asked
"Is this over or underpowered?" Source shouldn't matter imo. Though I'd
like opinions on this take. I'm not 100% I convinced myself of this.
Need more input. Thanks!"It's not just getting a free pass because it's a killer power. Over or underpowered is being looked at, hence why I said those things being shut off are factored into their balance. IE plague shuts healing off but is balanced around that because even though she has everyone exposed and can't heal she has zero power and is just a basic m1 during that. Hence why most stay broken and pump gens because she is so loopable in that state.
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@Sunflower_Mage said:
I think what some people don't realize is that of the four survivors, one didn't bring distortion. That is kind of a big deal. As they got tunneled out of the game because there was no other auras to read. That survivor got screwed over by their teammates who did bring that perk.
That is actually another good point we haven't brought up. It does encourage tunneling.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710738#Comment_3710738
A killer power turning perks off and perks turning perks off are only different in spirit because the devs told you they should be considered that way. There is fundamentally no difference in the two when a survivor encounters them. You could consider the killer ability a 5th "perk," because the killer had to equip that specific killer and will change their play style to get value out of the power. Killer powers also shouldn't destroy entire game mechanics, not unless they're willing to provide more flexibility in other aspects of the game when the specific killer is in play.
They are fundamentally different, not just in spirit. Those killers are balanced around the fact that they turn off those mechanics.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710737#Comment_3710737
Distortion has charges. It can and does frequently run out, even with 2 aura read perks. So it is not "just false" lol.
Mindbreaker prevents most lithe players from using it when they want to. Mindbreaker prevents most dead hard players from using it when they want to. Mindbreaker prevents most overcome players from using it when they want to. Requiring a player to walk for a few seconds during a chase is asking for a free hit, and most average players do not know how to counter mindbreaker.
"Distortion has charges. It can and does frequently run out, even with 2 aura read perks. So it is not "just false" lol."
No, it does not. That just simply isn't true.
"Mindbreaker prevents most lithe players from using it when they want to.
Mindbreaker prevents most dead hard players from using it when they
want to. Mindbreaker prevents most overcome players from using it when
they want to."No, it does not. A few seconds of walking is extremely doable to remove mid chase unless the survivor is just bad.
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@DH3206 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710707#Comment_3710707
Killers have like 30 aura perks and add-ons combined. We can also ask the question, is it fine that killers can slap on 4 aura perks and know where survivors are like 80% of the time? No, that isn't fine.
If survivors bring distortion and you're not bringing aura perks, it's also a wasted perk slot for the survivors the whole round. So your argument doesn't mean anything.
If I get a plague when running a full healing build, I'm basicly perkless the entire round because I can't heal puked on survivors or myself. Shall I have the chance to change my perks ingame when I see a plague? No, that would be ridiculous. So is nerfing distortion because it counters aura reading perks.
"is it fine that killers can slap on 4 aura perks and know where survivors are like 80% of the time? No, that isn't fine. "
Well firstly, even with 4 aura perks, 80% of the time is an extreme exaggeration and not reality. Even 30% would be extremely generous. I think you need to look at the duration of how long aura perks reveal. However ignoring that hyperbole, is 4 stacked aura perks fine? Absolutely it is. I would always rather a killer run 4 aura perks instead of 4 slow down perks. If a killer is stacking 4 aura perks your gens should be flying. You are ignoring how much of a cost it is to run 4 aura perks and not run gen slow down.
"If survivors bring distortion and you're not bringing aura perks, it's
also a wasted perk slot for the survivors the whole round. So your
argument doesn't mean anything."I didn't say overpowered, I said unhealthy. You are conflating the two when they aren't the same. If this is your rational as well, then you should also be fine with a killer perk that 100% turns off all Exhaustion perks, but I know you won't be.
"If I get a plague when running a full healing build, I'm basicly
perkless the entire round because I can't heal puked on survivors or
myself. Shall I have the chance to change my perks ingame when I see a
plague? No, that would be ridiculous. So is nerfing distortion because
it counters aura reading perks."You're conflating two things that aren't the same again. A killer power turning perks off and a perk turning perks off are not the same.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710707#Comment_3710707
This is a false equivalency because distortion DOES run out. Just like how mindbreaker applies exhaustion, the effect does run out. If you only bring lethal, sure you'll have been countered by distortion, but distortion is now useless for the survivor too.
I have and always will say that lightborn in its current state is poor game design and is more like what you're talking about. It eliminates an entire mechanic and reveals survivor auras that attempt to blind you. Unlike distortion that can be dealt with, lightborn simply nullifies blinds and has no counter.
"This is a false equivalency because distortion DOES run out. "
No, no it does not. That is just false. You'd have to be stacking like 4 aura perks to even have it ever run out and even in that scenario it's still blocking like 90% of them.
"Just like how mindbreaker applies exhaustion, the effect does run out"
Now that, is a false equivalency. They are not even remotely comparable. You'd be lucky if Mindbreaking blocked even 40% of Exhaustions from going off.
" If you only bring lethal, sure you'll have been countered by distortion, but distortion is now useless for the survivor too."
This is disingenuous. You could bring even 3 aura perks and it not run out. You're heavily downplaying how many auras Distortion can block without running out.
"I have and always will say that lightborn in its current state is poor
game design and is more like what you're talking about. It eliminates an
entire mechanic and reveals survivor auras that attempt to blind you.
Unlike distortion that can be dealt with, lightborn simply nullifies
blinds and has no counter."I would change Lightborn as well if you want to go that direction. I'd also argue Background Player with Flashbang is uncounterable as well though and is the only real reason we are seeing Lightborn used at all. If hypothetically Background Player and Flashbang didn't exist as they currently do no one would be using Lightborn outside of newer players.
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Distortion is unhealthy design in its current state. We want to encourage killers away from just stacking 4 slow downs but Distortions existence encourages it. It reduces the perk diversity we currently have which is already very low as it is.
Think of it this way. What if killers had a perk that just 100% turned off all Exhaustion perks? Is that fine? Like the logic most people are using to defend Distortion, well if the survivors don't bring an Exhaustion perk then the killers perk is a wasted slot as well now so it's totally fine right? See how that logic doesn't go both ways?
No one would be okay with a killer perk that 100% turned off Exhaustion perks, but are totally fine with a survivor perk that 100% turns off Aura perks.
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@KatsuhxP said:
I'd say yes, but dbd has a lot of stupid things that can make you loose.
As demo as example they can destroy you with crouch-teching, it doesn't really matter how good your shreds are if they are always grouched.
As trapper you have a huge disadvantage on any map without grass and thight corridors. So your power could be nearly non-existant.
Maps like eyrie of crows and garden of joy are insane in general regarding loops, so you can't do very much sometimes (not even talking about the bushes that you ALWAYS hit with almost every power).
In the end it's depending on builds, maps, killer and addons. You'll most likely win on a bad map if you have a good build, but if there's too many things staked against you, you'll probably loose.
Kinda what I was thinking as well. I think I'd generally speaking say yes as well, but there are a ton of exceptions that can happen quite often to allow the worse player to still win. So not the majority, but very often. I wish that was less the case.
Like I think tunneling removes skill from the game and will very often net killers wins against groups they were objectively worse than and should have lost.
In that same aspect I also think SWF can very often win games for objectively worse players as well through shear free unintended information and gen efficiency.
Just a couple examples even though there are many more, but even just those two are extremely common in games.
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@AngryDuodenum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710301#Comment_3710301
Depends on the round…Typically what happens is you get down to 2 survivors and then yes, leaves both slugged. Or in a rare instance will leave one slugged looking for the last one. But most of the time there are multiple slugged survivors all just bleeding out
The only situation that is actually toxic is having all the survivors slugged and letting them bleed out, refusing to pick up anyone. This scenario almost never happens to even be worth mentioning or making changes to the game over. If someone sees this regularly I question the integrity of how them or their team is playing heavily. I play way more than most people and I never see this. Doubt I've even seen it once in the last 500 games.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with slugging for pressure or slugging one of the last two people while you look for the other. That's what the killer is forced to do because the hatch mechanic exists. If you don't want this scenario then argue for the hatches removal. It's just an RNG free escape chance for losing.
Slugging is not the same thing as bleeding survivors out. Those are two different scenarios.
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It's one of my favorite maps. We need more indoor maps like it.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710174#Comment_3710174
He destroyed my SoloQ outside yesterday with a purple thicken the dark mist offering. It was a disaster.
I would say keep your back on the side of the gen furthest from the corner so if your reaction timing is slow he’s less likely to get a grab and just a hit. Spend the time to heal up, don’t stay injured to where him coming around a corner gets him a down. If no one’s in chase, assume he’s coming around the corner. Soon as you see someone in chase you’re safe to work on the gen again. Against mirror Myers you don’t want to be hiding behind objects and around corners, you want to be out in the open so he can’t sneak up on you.
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Well it’s basically useless on any map that isn’t indoors first of all. Then it’s countered by just not having him come around the corner for a free hit. He literally can’t chase at all since he’s so slow, so you can loop him forever.
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Overall I’d say it made things worse.
Slightly less tunneling, maybe. However significantly more hits from it when I’m actively trying not to tunnel or the survivors try and force it on me. So I’d say overall a net negative. Only way it looks positive to me is if you only play survivor.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709880#Comment_3709880
To be honest, I don't like the concept. I have nothing against a perk, that incentivises a killer to play more ambitious and go for multiple downs in a row like Infectious Fright. But a perk that promotes excessive slugging just for the sake of slugging isn't healthy in my opinion.
Also, 70% less healing speed on slugged survivors means they'll be on the ground 48+ seconds. That's more slowdown than Pop + Pain Res often give you and it's only 1 perk, that doesn't need a hook to activate. That's a bit much.
We can tweak the percentage.
Why do you view a perk that promotes slugging as unhealthy? I see no difference between slugging or hooking in terms of health, just different play styles. I would always rather be slugged as it’s generally more advantageous to me for multiple reasons and it’s objectively more fun as there are multiple things you can do while slugged as well as perks potentially factoring in. There’s literally zero to do on the hook other than remove yourself from the game. So while fun is obviously subjective, something is objectively more fun than nothing. I think the “real” reason people hate slugging is because it prevents them from quitting the game and it hurts their egos. I think the whole “fun” thing is a scape goat for the real reason. It’s the same way people say they want slugging nerfed because of bleed outs which realistically are almost never happening, but trying to get it nerfed for “toxic” reasons is a lot easier than just saying the real reason.
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@Xernoton said:
We warned them when they buffed it in 6.1.0 but they wouldn't listent. Now the only thing that can be done is showing them exactly what this perk does. It's a terrible perk design that destroys even SWFs.
However, I do agree with @Blueberry that using Knockout and playing for the full team slug is not toxic. If they made sure to bleed everyone out, then that is toxic indeed but using a perk and playing to get as much value as possible out of it is disregarding everyone else's fun at worst. They do not go out of their way to make you miserable, they merely use a perk that you don't like.
What did you think of my change idea to make it effect swf and solo equally but keep it as a time wasting slug perk?
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709834#Comment_3709834
Prove was nerfed when it saved less than 10 seconds. Medkits were nerfed when they saved less than 10 seconds. 40+ second recovery is a significant benefit to killer.
You think slugging is fun and map reworks favor survivors despite every one of them making maps smaller, with weaker loops and fewer pallets. And not a single map in the game has a higher than 50% survival rate. We're not going to agree any further here.
"Prove was nerfed when it saved less than 10 seconds."
Small gen speed increases are significant because gen speeds are already ridiculously fast. For example, 5 seconds isn't a lot when something takes 3 minutes, but 5 seconds is a lot on something that takes 40. These are obviously random numbers, but my point is that is a bad example to compare apples to apples. Gens are already so fast that insignificant number changes become significant. This isn't the same however for what we're talking about.
"Medkits were nerfed when they saved less than 10 seconds."
Same example as gens. Previously heal speeds took less time than the hit took to make in the first place, that's unhealthy.
"40+ second recovery is a significant benefit to killer. "
But it's not a 40+ second recovery increase, that's disingenuous. It was already 32 seconds, you are talking about a 10+ second increase. Also killer time and survivor time are not equivalent. It's a 4v1. Every second a killer uses is 4 seconds given to survivors. So if you spend 5 seconds kicking a gen, you just gave 20 seconds of gen time to survivors, or 15 if you got someone hooked. It wouldn't be 5 for 5. So "10 seconds" added to survivor would need be 40 seconds since it's a 4v1, to be equivalent. 30 if we wanna be generous and assume you've got someone hooked or something.
It's also not "just 40+ seconds to killer" how much of that time did he spend getting the injure and then down in the first place? Probably more than 40 seconds for 2 hits. Survivor and killer time are not the same.
This is also ignoring the extra risk the killer takes with slugging since if he fails and you get picked up he gained nothing, no hook state. That's a high risk play.
"You think slugging is fun"
I think being slugged is objectively more fun than being hooked. If you think otherwise I'm open to you giving a counter argument. "Fun" is obviously subjective, the only reason I call it objective in this circumstance is because as said before, something is objectively more fun than nothing. There's nothing to do on the hook other than removing yourself, but there are things to do and plays to set up for on the ground.
"map reworks favor survivors despite every one of them making maps smaller, with weaker loops and fewer pallets."
You're conflating two different statements that are not the same.
I said most reworked maps are still survivor favored. I did not say they weren't made more killer favored. Those are not synonymous statements as you are using them. The reworked maps were mostly made better for killer, yes, but they are still more survivor favored. Those can both be true statements at the same time.
For example: I can take an overpowered perk, rework it to be less overpowered and it still be in fact overpowered. This is what happened with map reworks, generally speaking. The maps are better, yes, but still heavily flawed.
" And not a single map in the game has a higher than 50% survival rate. "
That actually is factually untrue. The data did not show that, you have wrong numbers. Also, the map data itself for that is at this point, extremely old and outdated.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709813#Comment_3709813
It would require testing either way. Just throwing out numbers, I would say 30% recovery speed would be balanced. That takes a normal survivor from 32 to 45 seconds to fully recover iirc.
Healing debuff is tricky to balance because of the potential for multiple effects to stack. I don't remember exactly how the healing speed formula works when combining multiple buffs and debuffs so I would need some help to see what the upper and lower possibilities would be when considering healing builds vs anti healing builds.
I would still include blindness and slower crawl speed for the downed survivor as it fits the perk thematically and would help counter some builds like power struggle.
"Just throwing out numbers, I would say 30% recovery speed would be
balanced. That takes a normal survivor from 32 to 45 seconds to fully
recover iirc. "It would actually take it to 41.6 seconds. So that's 9.6 more seconds to recover. So you think the time Knockout added per survivor pick up was only nearly 10 seconds? Honestly now. Knockout in its current form even against swf where it's significantly less effective was adding way more than 10 seconds, and that's its worst case scenario nearly. I would say a 20 second increase, at bare minimum, would come close to what we're getting currently, and that's being generous, probably more.
"Healing debuff is tricky to balance because of the potential for
multiple effects to stack. I don't remember exactly how the healing
speed formula works when combining multiple buffs and debuffs so I would
need some help to see what the upper and lower possibilities would be
when considering healing builds vs anti healing builds. "Well my point here is that it wouldn't even need to be factored that much because the person on the ground is doing most the "healing" with recovery, not the survivor picking them up. The person recovering would get to 95% and just get tapped up. So all those anti healing perks are only affecting the slug, regardless of what changes we make here, for the final 5%. Basically insignificant. So other anti healing perks don't really matter for this topic on Knockout is my point essentially.
"I would still include blindness and slower crawl speed for the downed
survivor as it fits the perk thematically and would help counter some
builds like power struggle. "My issue here is adding this to the perk is gonna reduce how much recovery/heal slow down we get on the perk since these are extra features. The recovery/heal slow down matters a lot, while the Blindness just for that person and the crawl speed is nearly irrelevant. I don't want irrelevant features added that reduce the numbers on the actual relevant feature. If the killer is running this to slug he doesn't care about power struggle. Also if we're just talking thematics here, the word "Knockout" sounds extremely thematic with solely just recovering and being healed on the ground slowly because you've been hit so hard.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709788#Comment_3709788
So on top of reworked maps being 60% dead zones, now I'm supposed to preemptively expect a perk that is only insanely strong vs solo queue, and thereby eliminate half the remaining loops from consideration during a chase. I don't find that to be a realistic expectation or a feasible strategy. "Sorry guys, I could only loop these 3 center tiles in case of Knock Out."
And no, being on the floor for 4 minutes because you can't see your team and they can't see you is not more interesting than being hooked. At least on hook your team has actionable information, and potential for perks to trigger. Choosing which grass texture to stare at doesn't make up for this.
"So on top of reworked maps being 60% dead zones"
They aren't. Most reworked maps are still survivor favored.
"now I'm supposed to preemptively expect a perk that is only insanely
strong vs solo queue, and thereby eliminate half the remaining loops
from consideration during a chase."Why would you need to expect it? You aren't playing any differently other than not running to a corner…which is usually a bad idea anyway regardless of the perk.
" I don't find that to be a realistic expectation or a feasible strategy.
"Sorry guys, I could only loop these 3 center tiles in case of Knock
Out." "So now we've gone from teammates going in a corner, to teammates at loops not in the center of the map? You are changing what your original point was now. So what you actually meant was not center loops, not corner of the map. If that's the case this isn't much of an issue to find people. Calling that the "corners" was hyperbolic. Saying you can only stay near the center map loops in case the killer is running Knockout is a hyperbolic statement as well. You know that's not necessary. Yes the perk affects solos more than swf, yes we'd both like it changed to affect each equally, but you don't need to exaggerate how intense going against the perk is.
"And no, being on the floor for 4 minutes because you can't see your team
and they can't see you is not more interesting than being hooked. At
least on hook your team has actionable information, and potential for
perks to trigger. Choosing which grass texture to stare at doesn't make
up for this."I was referencing slugged vs hooked, not slugged with Blindness vs hooked. Completely different points. Without Blindness active slugging is objectively more enjoyable than being hooked because there is literally nothing to do on hook other than try to remove yourself from the game while there are multiple things to do on the ground as well as perks that could factor in. Something is objectively more fun than nothing. I also don't know why you're arguing with me about Blindness when I've literally just posted a change to the perk removing Blindness from it…
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709783#Comment_3709783
70% would be insane when you consider stacking that with sloppy and caulrophobia. It would take longer than a gen to pick someone up.
What would be your proposal then? If you go significantly lower then it's trash compared to the current version. We're trying not to nerf it, just make it equal against solo and swf.
Also they can recover most of their bar without being affected by either of those, so those two other perks would be doing basically nothing unless they did zero recovering and you were trying to pick them up from zero and the killer was on top of you..which if he is the other survivors should be on gens..so he's losing the game. So you're describing a scenario that makes the killer throw the game to achieve. Keep in mind this build scenario is also the killer bringing basically zero gen slow down since he's committing all his "slow down" to slugging/anti heal, so gen speeds themselves would be much faster than what you're currently facing.
Essentially "most" the pickup would be from recovery, not healing, if those other perks were active, so those aren't really relevant. I'd also argue that only 70% recovery slow down isn't significantly slower than the time you'd save from current Knockout with how long people spent looking around the map for you.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709691#Comment_3709691
Surely you can see the problem with being stuck bleeding out in a corner as your solo queue teammates wander around Marco Polo style. As opposed to, vs swf, "yea im to the left of the water tower. Yep there you go."
And yes I do view killer players using a build that might as well be perkless vs swf but very specifically devastating to solo players as toxic.
Well what you're describing isn't what's shown in the picture.
Also, why are you or your teammates going down in a corner in the first place? If my teammate goes down in a corner, while annoying, that's my bad teammates fault, why would I be blaming the killer or the play style for that? I wouldn't be upset at the killer.
While of course I'd rather the perk be changed to effect both equally as I mentioned in my other post, the game is balanced around solo queue, not swf. "Toxic" isn't the right word here. "Strong" would be. Toxic implies intent behind the actions to ruin someones fun, not just choosing to play a strong build or play style they may find more enjoyable. They aren't doing it for the sole purpose of trying to bother people. I would also always rather be slugged. It's more advantageous to me, has more counter play, and I can quite literally do more on the ground than I can on the hook. The only reason to prefer being hooked over slugged is because the person wants to remove themselves from the game and that shouldn't be encouraged anyway. I don't count "slugging to let everyone bleed out on the ground" as a reason to hate slugging because that is realistically very, very, very rare. I play way more than the average person and I don't think I've seen that once in the last 200 games.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709688#Comment_3709688
I think this is on the right track. Some of the numbers might need tweaking, and I would throw in the slower crawling speed debuff as well. Maybe keep the blindness part only the survivor that gets downed but not the other teammates.
Well the issue with Blindness on just the guy on the ground is that again is easier for swf but not solos since they can call it out. Slower crawl speed is nice I guess but honestly doesn't feel like it would be much. I'd rather just have slower pick up from the ground.
Maybe a simpler change would just be like, slows recovery and pick up speed by 70%. Works on basic and special attacks. I'd rather keep it's aspect of what it's intended to do (getting picked up) rather than limiting what the survivor can do (which is less fun), IE slower crawl or preventing recovery entirely. I'll alter my previous post. This makes it effect swf and solos equally.
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@Rogue11 said:
Quarterly reminder that this perk is extremely unhealthy for the game in it's current state and is 99% of the time only used to be toxic to solo queue teams.
How is that toxic if we can see in your screen shot that he's picking someone up to hook them? He's not bleeding y'all out. How's that toxic?
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No longer causes their auras to be hidden.
Now slows recovery and pickup speed by 70%. Works on basic and special attacks.
This makes it effect solo queue and swf equally, but keeps its intended purpose with slow down on slugs. This just moves the time waste away from finding your teammates and into being picked up instead.
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I'd rather buff it back to 100% silence but it applies Exhaustion itself while it is equipped. So you get the old strong effect, but you give up running an Exhaustion perk for it. That's a fair trade for how good the old 100% version is.
And not Exhausted while you are injured and it is active, while equipped. Otherwise you'd just run Exhaustion perks as well to get value from them before you're injured.
This makes it strong, but have a cost.
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708545#Comment_3708545
You say this almost every discussion regarding slowdown ngl, and no offense, but are you sure you're not exaggerating the effects of that system just a tad? I've played probably hundreds of killer games since they dropped that system, and have never actually lost a game due to it. By the time I actually get a gen blocked off, it doesn't even matter. The game's already over cause I've gotten enough hooks in the match to have won. 8 kicks per gen is more than what any killer would ever need for gen defense, unless your just deliberately playing for a 3 gen stalemate game which is exactly what the system's intended to combat.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708565#Comment_3708565
Disagree. Free regression that requires nothing, but kicking a gen is not good design.
To say those perks are “free” is disingenuous. It’s not free. Kicking is a high cost. The time spent walking over, kicking, then returning to apply pressure is a cost that is not insignificant. You’re looking at 5 seconds here, minimum. 5x3 survivors as I’ll not only be generous on time but also assume you’ve got someone hooked. So even being generous here that’s 15 seconds lost to generator progress from the survivor team on every.single.kick. With it probably being more than 15 seconds realistically. I don’t think you realize how much of a negative kicking generally is and how much time you’re losing. This is why it’s almost never worth kicking a gen unless you’ve got perks adding value to it.
Also, even ignoring that cost associated with kicking, it’s still not free in regards to skill. This would be like calling Ruin free, which is also not true for the same reason. That reason being that you only get that regression value if you’re good at map pressure. Unless you can pressure survivors away from multiple gens they will cancel the regression. They don’t just sit there continuing to regress for free no matter what you do.
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@Onako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709007#Comment_3709007
I always thought this "high risk, high reward" aspect of ruin was the main idea behind the entire perk. Like yeah, it has a very strong effect but it can also be dealt with really fast
Yeah that's "supposed" to be the premise behind hexes in general. They're supposed to be nearly "too strong" if left up because they run the risk of being gone in the first 20 seconds of the match. Unfortunately what most hexes have become is low to mediocre effect with still the high risk of being gone in 20 seconds.
Either the risk needs to be toned down or the reward raised. Risk toned down would probably be the healthier option to accommodate for lower mmr players who struggle to find the hexes. Something like hexes don't light onto a totem until the first gen is completed or something like that to have them guaranteed active till at least the first gen.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708645#Comment_3708645
Well we will see if it works out like that in practiser, but I doubt it...
We’ve already seen how it works out in practice. Those hostage numbers are the same ones we had before. Only difference being it will be a little bit longer than before since the respawn has increased.
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It should honestly go back to 200%. It wasn't too strong at all. They just nerfed it because it was popular.
It's current version is trash.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708606#Comment_3708606
Good day Onryoberry 👋😏
G'day Mr.Singularity! :)
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707841#Comment_3707841
The largest problem with twins was how clunky and buggy they are... The largest problem against twins is that the only real counterplay is holding Victor hostage, because otherwise twins will injure and down people faster than they can heal.
The counter play to Twins is not holding them hostage, that's just bad design. Their counter play is grouping and healing. Grouped so that every Victor down gets him kicked and the survivor picked up before she returns and healing so that they never have the chance to chain slug, which is the only way they can win. With the respawn time of Victor increased after being kicked you objectively have time to heal or pick up before she gets back unless Charlotte sent out Victor when she was literally already nearly on top of you, which is very rarely the case. This is without taking a single healing perk or medkit into count, we're talking literal base kit here, and rarely do I ever see a match without at least some healing perk or multiple medkits. Any healing perks or medkits makes this significantly easier. Then there's also the counter play of locker jumping, which is most of the time effective as she is rarely close enough to get there before you break out. This also ends her chain slugging and forces a pick up even if she does reach you in time. That is their counter play. While their bugs have always been annoying, it was not their main issue, it was taking Victor hostage that was. The "clunky" is Victor being taken hostage, as well as the 5 second stun on every successful down. Those two things are why people found them unfun to play.
The Victor early recall is confirmed a bug. So we're talking 30 seconds held hostage, then a 10 second recharge, then whatever travel time from Charlotte with Victor. That's 40 seconds on every single healthy injure where you are an m1 with no ability…that is extreme unhealthy design. How many minutes per match is that of having no power? A lot.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708604#Comment_3708604
as much i would love pain res base-kit, that's one change i think that will not happen. In fact, i predict pain res and grim embrace to get nerfed. I don't know when though. Just that i sense that it will not stay the same.
Until they bake a good amount of gen regression into the base game stacking gen regression will be the meta forever.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708586#Comment_3708586
i think it will happen. they have buffed gen-kicking two times. it is one change away from being a relevant mechanic in the game.
Add that, then a weaker base kit pain res that works on every hook as long as it's not the same survivor that was hooked last to only give it to killers playing fair and then we can nerf a lot of gen slow down perks simultaneously.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708565#Comment_3708565
i think that is poor idea. they should increase base regression from 400% to 300% which would buff these perks into relevancy.
Well of course I'd prefer that as well, I just doubt that's going to happen.
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Just revert them both to the last version. Now that we have the 3 gen feature limiting their strength those nerfs are no longer necessary.
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So I could just block every single person that beat me?
This would be an absolute disaster if this was ever implemented.
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I see DS used aggressively trying to force it on killers and hit killers not tunneling way, way more often than I see it hit killers "actually" tunneling.
It should at least turn off once the killer hooks a different survivor. Idk how this wasn't already changed years ago.
If DS only hit people that were in fact tunneling I'd be totally fine with it, but that's just not the case.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708469#Comment_3708469
I like the idea of bringing back breaking tapes on hit. It would give her another form of skill expression by allowing the killer to bounce between survivors to slowly build condemn and give her some way to stop people putting a tape in mid chase. Helps bring back a bit of the condemn playstyle without being overwhelming like the old one and more engaging. She wouldn't have to commit to chasing someone with a tape until they are downed just to have a chance to combat the tapes.
Even solely this change would make a substantial difference so this sounds good to me!
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@Livion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708447#Comment_3708447
I always thought that giving her a tiny speed boost while cloaked wouldn't be that bad, not like wraith but a bit smaller so she can patrol better.
Maybe that's giving her way to much mobility so...
I generally would rather buff her in unique ways that isn't the same as other killers, even if it's a smaller %. As you mentioned Wraith already has that so I'd rather give her something more unique. Either improving the flicker a lot for better mind games or maybe while Demanifested she could walk through windows at a slower rate. Something unique. There's already way, way too many killers that are nearly copy/pastes of each other with a different splash of paint on it.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708447#Comment_3708447
I honestly have no clue haha. Sorry.
Well there's a few different ways we could go about this.
- TV's that aren't that survivors target TV for tape drop off should not be highlighted, it removes surprise teleports and makes it even easier to spam turn off TV's completely denying her power with little downside. You can already hear them audibly anyway.
- Ring Drawing should be base kit to incentivize hooking and give some kind of punishment to tape holding. There's currently zero negative to tapes. There needs to be some risk/reward.
- If we don't do Ring Drawing built in, I'd rather have hits breaking tapes returned. This is another way of giving Sadako some form of fighting Condemn removal. She currently has basically zero control over their removal. She's essentially an m1 killer with no real anti loop, no real stealth and a map mobility controlled by survivors, so if I can get an m1 on them I should be rewarded for that.
- Remove the directional audio on TV teleports, it removes the point of the surprise.
- I would also mention improving her "anti loop" if it's even good enough to call it that. The intermittent flicker is so bad it does on the edge of nothing realistically. However, it currently is supposed to be better but is actually a confirmed bug and never received the buff to its duration that it was supposed to get on her last update. It's also currently desynced visually between what Sadako sees and the survivors see. Meaning when you look invisible on your screen from the flicker, you're not for the survivor. This messes up any ability to actually time your direction changes at loops.
- Speaking of which, remove the slow down entirely from Manifesting. We already know it's trash as a stealth, doesn't have a charge, doesn't have a speed boost ect. It does so little it isn't worthy of slowing you down at all.
- Remove the lock in limit on hooking like we had on the last PTB version. It punished people who ignored her tape mechanic and rewarded hooking. She currently doesn't have enough incentive to hook at only 3 locked in. Any number that gets locked in at 2 hooks is completely and utterly irrelevant. At that point they're dead on hook and the Condemn doesn't even matter anymore. If the Condemn ever requires more than one hook at max it has defeated it's entire point and is counter intuitive.
- Her addons are a complete mess. The vast majority of them are trash. There's also many of them which still have old effects that used to be good, based on her old version but weren't reworked upon her reworks and don't make sense anymore. Iri Tape which used to be one of her best is now complete garbage.
- Speaking of addons she has some that feel "required". I know that her speed boost out of TVs was already buffed but Bloody Fingernail is her best addon and feels like an auto lock every match, it's that good. It would be extremely challenging to convince many Sadako's to drop it regardless of what happens to her other addons, it feels that required. Maybe nerf it and buff some of it into the base kit again.
I'm not saying all of these, but these are some different directions to go.
I also disagree with any point about "condemn is just for slow down, not getting kills". I know you didn't say this yet, just mentioning before the guaranteed person does. The Condemn is all she has. She's trash in every other aspect. If the Condemn is only for slow down then her entire kit is just a teleport controlled by survivors and m1'ing people. Even from a fun aspect that is bad. I can understand her Condemn being as it currently is if she was better and more fun in other areas, but she's not, the Condemn is the only thing she has going for her and the only thing making her unique from other killers. It's why people play her over any other killer.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708416#Comment_3708416
I'm not saying her stealth is good, it isn't at all. I'm saying she shouldn't have good stealth because it would be too much in addition to everything else she already has.
She's not overpowered or anything, she could use some changes, but removing the lullaby isn't the way to do that. Buff her in other ways. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be fine, but that's just what I think.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708419#Comment_3708419
Yes because the OP was saying that my logic meant Ghostface was broken, which I was showing wasn't the case because he has nothing that Sadako has and isn't in anyway comparable.
I mean I'm down if you're wanting to improve her in other ways instead of the stealth. What did you have in mind?
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@BlightedDolphin You’re giving reasons why Ghostface needs buffs as well, not why Sadako doesn’t.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
I don't know how I feel about Sadako having no lullaby.
It's annoying and negates a lot of the stealth potential. However an on demand stealth with no cool down or drawbacks on top of a map wide teleport and built in slow down might be a little much.
You can hear where she’s teleporting from as well as see the TV so it’s not a surprise. The manifest also slows her down while being the only stealth that gives basically nothing. There’s no speed boost, no charge, no one shot, nothing. The manifest/demanifest is just preventing you from attacking. Yeah it’s on demand without “much” of a draw back, but it also has none of the benefits or bonuses that literally any of the other stealth killers have. It’s the least rewarding to use of them all. The “flickering” is hardly a benefit either.
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I'm okay with pallet stuns knocking it out, but all the other stuns knocking out as well shouldn't be a thing. A lot of other stuns are out of your control and enforce bad game play. This is actually a substantial nerf.
I was also pretty sure they've had the stance that perks shouldn't directly counter killers powers which is what this does. They've been steadily removing all instances of that from the game and this would be a step in the opposite direction.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708211#Comment_3708211
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BPM20B3XGE5X/img-2147.jpeg
She “Silently and invisibly” traverse the realm 🤣
Nope. She’s loud as hell and she flickers in and out constantly. 🤣
Oh wow, yeah that's just blatantly false then. She is definitely not either lol.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708148#Comment_3708148
it is not a bug. it is because she doesn't have lullaby. it is directional audio cue when she is invisible just happens to have same distance as TR.
I guess "technically" not a lullaby even though it pseudo acts as one.
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I guess she’s just the exception for some reason.
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Vampire and Werwolf type killer needs to happen at some people, people have always wanted this.
I do think more creature type killers have been a massive untapped potential for dbd. Tons of licenses open up and creative ideas for originals.
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It’s bad.
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Yeah I would rather them both go unchanged. Nerfing perks just because they’re popular isn’t a good idea. We should be adding new perks to the meta, not removing more and making the options even smaller.