Blueberry
Blueberry
About
- Username
- Blueberry
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
Yeah this is one of my big wants as well. Not just scratch marks but auras in general. Allow us to customize the colors around.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707479#Comment_3707479
I would love to see gen kick perks get buffed back since we have the 3 gen system in place now. Would be nice. At least put COB back to its original numbers, just don’t make it stack with OC.
Boom 💥 doneWell honestly I don’t think it would even matter if they stacked still since the kicks per gen is limited.
-
I mean we already had a small meta and then they nerfed stbfl and sloppy making the list of viable perks even smaller. Not even getting into all the other perks they destroyed like all the gen kick ones and Thana. Honestly old Thana was fine and the gen kick perks should get buffed back since now that we have the 3 gen limit their old strength is no longer an issue. Most all the other perk options are just so awful the current meta gets defaulted. We need another patch with significant perk buffs. They need to stop nerfing perks in general and focus on buffing bad ones. If you nerf and buff we just replace one meta for another. If we just buff other perks then we get a larger pool of viable perks diversifying the meta, that’s healthier.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707322#Comment_3707322
You can't make solos play on swf level no matter what tools you give them. Map wide bond wouldn't make nea stop urban evading around the map; people do what makes sense to them and not you.
Like another poster wisely pointed out, comms is only part of the strength of swf. The real strength is in being able to filter out bad players. Competent solo lobbies exist and prove this.
Oh I totally agree. The main advantage of swf is the guarantee of good teammates more than it is the coms.
The main issues with solo queue have nothing to do with balance, it’s matchmaking and just players being bad.
-
I’m down for bringing solos to swf level and then buffing killers to swf level, but as mentioned, no one ever mentions the later part. They don’t want killers brought to swf level, just survivor buffs. We can generally see balance changes following this cycle as well. We’ve had changes bringing solo closer to swf with very little to bring killers to swf.
I generally dislike the phrasing that most swf are just friends hanging out casually. Even if that’s true, it’s extremely downplaying how much advantage just hanging out with friends casually gives. Even in casual friend play they are still getting ridiculous levels of extra information fed between each other that highly impacts the games balance. “Casual friends chilling” is not just a minor advantage.
-
She’s fine. Even her really good addons are fine most of the time. I’d say her ultra rares are even a good example of what most killers ultra rares should be, most are terrible.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706830#Comment_3706830
Well as Hens for example described it holding Victor hostage is basically the counterplay to them, because everything else is just the killer player missing and with that super low recall time you can just 4 men slug way too easy... He injures them faster than they can heal and there is no reason for him to pick up.
I mean sure losing your power for that long sucks, but what are the survivors supposed to do otherwise? Run to the opposite side of the map and jump into a locker?
Well the counter play is not supposed to be holding him hostage. The counter play is stacking and healing. Healing counters the slugging which is the only way they win and grouping leads to them getting kicked on every successful down which means they are generally picked up before you can get back or they do get there in time and now you’re forcing her to down, walk over, down, walk over, which is losing them the game anyway as that’s too time deficient.
This all said, I can understand why you want the Victor held hostage to be a thing, but I think we can both agree having their power held hostage like that is bad design and not fun for the killer. So if we are doing that, then Charlotte needs something to make her fun to use when she doesn’t have her power. Maybe she needs her own power as well or some kind of strength boost she gets while Victor is taken.
-
Yeah this has been a bug for a while, please fix.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
I just want to reiterate what I just said in another thread….
If Twins goes back to 30 second Victor hostages, then I’ll stop playing Twins again, and I’ll consider this entire Twins rework to be a complete failure.
It’s literally the only thing I cared about, and wanted fixed.Literal same. That was the number one issue they had. Everything else is irrelevant if that’s not fixed.
-
@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706797#Comment_3706797
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411731/okay-new-twins-update-is-pretty-good
On the last page, she confirms that recalling Victor after 10s from latching onto a survivor is a bug and will be fixed in the next hotfix patch. This means it will go back to being a 30sec if the survivor decides to hold him hostage.
I agree the whole reason I wanted to try this version of twins was bc I could recall victor after a hit on a healthy survivor. I never liked being powerless for 30 seconds just bc the survivor refused to crush him off their back. So now I wouldn't touch this killer ever.
Dang yeah, back to having their power taken hostage. I was giving good praise on the Twins changes too. I guess I take that all back. Twins are still going to be just as unpopular to play as they were before now.
-
@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706761#Comment_3706761
Yeah, I agree. The main reason I never play Twins is bc I hated then I was forced to play Charlotte whenever I latched Victor on a survivor. She is just boring to play and the feeling of the true fun of your power being held for 30 seconds by a survivor. I wanted to play this version of Twins because you call recall Victor off a survivor but Mandy says that a bug so I really don't want to play them now.
Wait wait, did Mandy actually confirm that being able to recall Victor early is a bug? If that’s actually confirmed then Twins is back in the boring dumpster. That was the main thing actually making people enjoy playing her now as taking Victor hostage makes them ultra boring.
That actually kills any interest I had in Twins now if that is actually a bug and being reverted.
-
@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706120#Comment_3706120
Idk I just feel like Victor isn’t restrained enough now and that was the only thing really keeping them balanced. We’ll see.
Almost all the other QoL changes are excellent though.
It’s a tough fix. The core problem is that there’s zero fun on charlotte, she does nothing. She’s an m1 with no power. So the more you limit Victor chain hitting the more the player is forced to walk around as an m1 with no power, boring, plus weak, but more importantly boring. People want to limit Victor and I get it, but the more we do that the more we need to give some additional fun factor to charlotte. Maybe charlotte needs an ability of her own as well.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706120#Comment_3706120
after playing a dozen games of twins, the only thing that i wish they would change is revert regrow time from 10→6 and reduce the time it takes to recall victor to 5 seconds. Other than that, Twin is perfect as is. dead weight time is somewhat annoying.
The time with no power does feel bad but I’m more worried they’re gonna nerf them.
-
@redglyph said:
It became a very boring killer because there was no countermeasure.
4k is possible even with no skill player.↓ Please revert this.
Victor’s Pounce now latches onto Survivors when they are put into the dying state. While Victor is attached, the Survivor cannot return to the Injured state. Other Survivors can crush Victor during this time to help the dying Survivor. Victor automatically returns to Charlotte after 20 seconds. (NEW)
uhh it was reverted, this never made it to live.
-
I’m surprised this is even a debate. 100% I would call that cheating. It’s an unintended and unfair advantage.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706176#Comment_3706176
I wish they buffed Madeines's gloves and Soyed milk. +2 meters and +6 meters is too low. it would be nice if they buffed these add-on to +6 and +10 meters. Victor is somewhat of good tracking power because you can switch, see if anyone is in the area with killer instinct then take back control of victor.
Dead hard is incredible potent vs twins in this iteration. In the ptb, victor could hit a survivor with dead hard then catch-up. in this iteration, dead hard becomes a victor grab. I agree with lockers being still an issue.
Those addon changes would be nice.
In reference to DH, in the old version you didn't hit them and catch up. You hit them, and then they just turn around and instantly kicked you. That's why I prefer this version.
-
@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706084#Comment_3706084
The 10 seconds to unleash is only if Victor got crushed, not recalled. Victor used to be attached for 45/30 seconds, and Twins were still an incredibly strong killer that went on winstreaks of hundreds of matches, 4k'd routinely in tournaments and were generally said to require a coordinated team of at least 3 SWF survivors to beat with any consistency if the Twins player is any good. Now it is 10 seconds. And that's on top of all the other baseline improvements. I won't go into a silly numbers game here, if you don't understand how oppressive Twins without the ability to create Victor downtime are, that's you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706111#Comment_3706111
If he gets crushed, he's ready to be unleashed 10 seconds later. If he hits someone, he is ready to be recalled and unleashed 10 seconds later.
I don't mind to leave it at disagreeing on whether Twins were an incredibly strong killer even before this update. It is true that tournaments restrict healing items and perks, which makes Twins stronger, but tournament teams are infinitely more coordinated than any pub group anyone ever meets, and coordination was their biggest weakness. And yet she stil routinely 4k'd.
Twins in this state are broken.
"If he gets crushed, he's ready to be unleashed 10 seconds later."
Ignoring the fact that he has to be resummoned all the way back at Charlotte and cross the map again.
"If he hits someone, he is ready to be recalled and unleashed 10 seconds later."
A 10 second wait before recalling, then another delay before resummoning, then you have to recross the map again. There's more to the time than just the cooldown.
" It is true that tournaments restrict healing items and perks, which
makes Twins stronger, but tournament teams are infinitely more
coordinated than any pub group anyone ever meets, and coordination was
their biggest weakness"I'd argue just really good swf's on coms are stronger than comp teams when you factor in them being allowed to stack all the meta perks and 4 syringes or styptics. I think you're downplaying how very signficantly they are nerfed in comp, it's substantial. Also, in comp they are always playing on maps that are significantly easier for killer. There are many, many more maps in DBD that are way more survivor sided that they completely avoid in comp that we are facing against those just really good swf on coms. Factoring in maps + no item or perk restrictions is substantial.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705781#Comment_3705781
at least silencing cloth is really good still. the changes are honestly above my expectations. No longer does swf just abuse victor and hold victor for 30 second+regrow time.
Yeah that's true. They are above my expectation as well because we got things that weren't really listed, essentially recalling Victor while attached and reduced stun on successful Victor down. Both of those are huge. Those were two of my biggest gripes about playing Twins. They feel significantly smoother and less clunky to play as well as being stronger. Holding Victor hostage should have never been a thing in the first place, it's bad design. The counter play is supposed to be just grouping up and keeping healed. They still have the annoying locker jumping which is bad design as well but I'll take what I can get, huge improvement. They are very strong now. I was really looking forward to Weighted Rattle though, sucks losing that.
-
For survivor, decent skilled teammates who don't just give up.
For killer, non swf. I just want a fair and balanced match. I want to win or lose because of outplaying or being outplayed, not because of poor balancing and the other team having advantages the game wasn't balanced for.
-
Yeah ever since this patch extreme lag and rubberbanding.
-
I actually like this current version. They feel so much smoother and most the clunkyness is gone. Quite good too.
-
@sizzlingmario4 said:
Is Victor's cooldown supposed to be shorter after he downs someone? The 5 second cooldown was kinda needed for adequate counterplay if the killer player doesn't intend to switch back to Charlotte. If the goal is to let players switch back to Charlotte sooner (which I'd even say is a good thing), then allow switching back to Charlotte during Victor's hit cooldown. But if the player intends to stay controlling Victor then it should be a 5 second cooldown like it was before.
One of the top few things that made Twins feel clunky and people not want to play them was that stun. Having to eat a 5 second DS stun on every successful down feels terrible. It's punishing you for playing well. Being able to swap during this, while feeling nice, doesn't fix the problem. Playing the Twins like this loses you games so you don't really want to be doing that. The chain hits is how she's good.
-
@PogbertChamperson said:
My only real problem when versing the twins is that Charlotte can recall victor immediately after hitting a healthy survivor. If she finds you then deploys victor she can hit you, recall, send victor right back out. Holding victor hostage was a problem, but I think even a 5-10 second window where she can't recall would feel better to verse without drastically bringing down her power level.
edit: I guess it is 10 seconds before recall atm. It feels pretty quick considering how easy it is to hit someone with victor.
I mean 10 seconds to recall, then the cooldown, then to resummon and get back to that survivors location..if you even find them. That's quite a bit of time.
-
That or just make all totems appear as dulls until the first gen is completed. Either way.
-
Btw for those curious before about if you could kick Victor after a successful down, you can. They are not immune on a successful down. I verified.
-
@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706013#Comment_3706013
You are referring to "Charlotte can now recall Victor at any point while he is unbound.", which isn't what this is. First of all, "unbound" would mean not bound to Charlotte or a survivor. Secondly, this change was already in the PTB, and yet Victor could not be recalled while latched onto a survivor. And finally, if this were also applying when latched on, you would be able to instantly recall him, instead of having to wait 10 seconds. They simply reduced the time before you can recall Victor while latched on to 10 seconds, undocumentedly.
And while it isn't quite as horrendously broken as Twins were on PTB, you will still lose every time to an even just decent Twins unless you are a 4-SWF on comms abusing Power Struggle. And even then you will still lose if the Twins player is more than just decent. Victor will be out constantly, there is no respite, no time to reset, he'll be injuring and downing someone without counterplay every 20 seconds, and of course again be able to slug everyone in quick succession once they are injured.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706030#Comment_3706030
You don't have time to out-heal Twins, Victor is on the map every 10 seconds ready to injure and down survivors.
Twins were already an incredibly strong killer before this update that were generally considered top 5 in tournament play and 4k'd even highly coordinated teams. I welcome the quality-of-life improvements to them, but this specific change is uncalled for and breaks the killer.
"You don't have time to out-heal Twins, Victor is on the map every 10 seconds ready to injure and down survivors."
You can. She also isn't out every 10 seconds, that's exaggerating a bit and disregarding the delay on Victor manual returns as well as any missed hits.
"Twins were already an incredibly strong killer before this update that
were generally considered top 5 in tournament play and 4k'd even highly
coordinated teams. I welcome the quality-of-life improvements to them,
but this specific change is uncalled for and breaks the killer."They were not. Tournaments are also a very bad example with all the rule sets they add artificially.
-
@zarr said:
There is an undocumented change that makes Twins almost as broken as they were on PTB: Victor can now be recalled some 10 seconds after latching onto a survivor. That means there is next to no downtime from Victor, he will always be out injuring and downing people without counterplay.
Twins are unbeatable right now. I hope that shadow buff is not there to stay.
As someone else said, it's not undocumented, it's intended.
Also they are very beatable and have lots of counter play. The counter play is healing and grouping. Essentially the complete opposite of what most groups want to do, which is stay injured, split up, and spread out. The heals deny her snowball slug potential and group denies chain hits since she gets kicked after every down or miss. Oh and locker jumps as well, she actually has very little time to reach the locker.
-
@Brimp said:
Victor is not immune to kicks after downing a survivor despite the white aura misleading you to think so. Also controlling victor himself near a hook does not increase the Anti-Facecamp.
Okay that's what I thought I had experienced as well.
-
@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705924#Comment_3705924
Are we sure its the color that is bugged then and not the invulnerability? I only ask this because the patch notes says Victor will glow white when he isn't able to be crushed, but what scenario would he glow white now if he can be crushed during a successful pounce attack?
I was pretty sure I'd been kicked, but I could be wrong. Let me go test it some more.
-
@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705930#Comment_3705930
Ironically wasn't all that a result of them mass slugging in the beggining? Leading to aggresive balance updates? I hardly believe they were that clunky on release. I don't quite remember their on release features. But I don't think a 5 second stun was one of them lol.
Correct, the 5 second stun was not on the release. It was added later. Bugs aside, they weren't as clunky on release. Supposedly their reasoning years ago for adding this clunkyness was because Twins was performing too well at high mmr levels even though they were fine everywhere else. Even though basically no one played them then either, so it was a weird statement. I personally see no issue with their slugging, I think it's a valid play style. High risk/high reward, lots of counter play. Their change also did zero in terms of stopping them from slugging, it just nerfed them in general and made them feel bad to play.
-
@ExcelSword said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705924#Comment_3705924
This especially. The cooldown being less than 5 seconds has a massive impact. Victor can still move as well, so you need to be ready to kick him as soon as you see him going for another survivor.
Yeah I really like this change. Having to eat a 5 second DS stun every time you play well and down someone was one of the things people hated about playing Twins.
-
@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705918#Comment_3705918
Oh interesting, i haven't played as survivor yet, i only played as Twins themselves and nobody was able to kick me when i downed someone
I think it's just the color that's bugged making people think they can't. The stun on Victor after a successful down is also 3 seconds now instead of the old 5 so it's a much smaller window for them to act.
-
@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705915#Comment_3705915
I heard he still glows white after a successful pounce?
Yeah he does glow white after a successful down atm, so that may be a confusing bug when he's supposed to be red since the white means not kickable.
-
He's been kickable every match I've played him so far after a down.
-
No, he is not immune.
-
Very happy with this current Twins. More rewarding if you play well and more punishing if you play bad, that's good design. The faster recovery on downing a survivor and being able to recall Victor when attached sooner both feel amazing and remove two of the biggest clunkyness The Twins had and what prevented a lot of people from enjoying them. I'm assuming the Victor attaching to survivors that have Endurance is a bug, but honestly as others have mentioned as well, this feels fine. It seems kinda like a neutral change but I'm a bit more positive leaning towards it. Just leave it, no need to fix. Most people are liking it.
Honestly the last issues with The Twins are just the walk to pick up a survivors and their addons. All the walking to pick up might not be much of an issue though with all the other QoL kinda offsetting it though. However, the addons are still terrible. The need a full addon pass. Now essentially all you're ever running is just Victor movespeed addons and a Spinning Top when you see lots of items, that's it. Very little diversity of options. I was disappointed to see that Weighted Rattle got reverted as well, I had been excited to use that and now it's bad again.
Overall these changes make them feel so much better to play and I expect to see an uptick in usage of The Twins. Please don't nerf any of this, it's solid and being received generally positive by most people.
-
It looked disappointing on paper but after testing they kept in a few things not mentioned. The faster Victor recovery after a down and the recalling of Victor after attached much sooner. These feel amazing. Those were two of the big things making her feel bad to play. Last remaining feel bad is just the walk to pick up. She overall feels much smoother and less clunky to play which was what she needed. She's more punishing if you play bad with the longer Victor respawn cooldown but more rewarding if you play well and land your hits, as they should be. I think they're going to be much more popular now.
My only sadness is not getting the addon changes. I was excited for Weighted Rattle. Now it's basically just always auto default to Victor movespeed with throwing a Spinning Top in if you see lots of items. That's about it. Very little addon diversity with most of them being very bad. They need a full addon pass still.
-
Dang the addon changes for Twins didn't even go through. More disappointment.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705630#Comment_3705630
No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook.
Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in camping.
Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking.
We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here
You actually are.
According to Nightlight right now, the top 10 most used killer perks are: Pain Res, PGTW, Lethal Pursuer, Corrupt Intervention, BBQ & Chili, Nowhere to Hide, Bamboozle, Surge, Sloppy Butcher and Deadlock.
Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has additional restrictions.
And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
Pardon?
"Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been
implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which
is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in
camping. "It does not. There are a myriad of anti slug perks that exist and slugging is very high risk as if it fails you gain nothing and lost a lot. Also, the only anti tunnel you're avoiding is DS and even then it has a long timer which is giving you a very long time to potentially get saved before it's over. He still can't pick you up till it's over. Oh is he bleeding you out while standing over you? The survivors aren't winning the game while he stands there for minutes throwing the match? When is this realistically even ever happening? I rarely ever see this and I play way more than the average person.
"There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and
slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest
levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking."If you think the game is balanced for 12 hook matches then there's nothing else we can talk about as that is an objectively false statement that will deter any future balance conversation as we have a completely different frame of reference.
"Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition
that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to
kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as
you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has
additional restrictions. "Wrong. Lethal could be rendered useless by Distortion and even turns off at the start of the match. Risk and negative right there. Corrupt turns itself off and even ends early if you play well. Negative and limitation on value. BBQ requires hooks, aka skilled play. NWTH requires wasting time on gen kicks which is a high cost and could potentially be countered by Distortion. I'll give you Bamboozle. Surge is heavily RNG, could be very good or bad depending on map and is limited in use by basic attack requirements. Sloppy is limited in use by basic attack requirements like Surge so is generally only usable well on already weak killers. Also has time limitation now.
You're too stuck on "normal game play". It can be part of normal game play but still have many negatives, skill requirements and restrictions which is what this entire conversation was about.
"And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest. "
Comparatively. If no other perks existed except Calm Spirit is Calm Spirit now too good? So saying it's still the strongest is irrelevant.
"Pardon?"
Sorry I forgot about a perk so useless that no one ever uses it. Why was this relevant?
-
@radiantHero23 said:
To me, winning or losing isn't that important. How I won or lost is much more important to me. If I lost as killer while I had 7-8 fun chases with different people, this is actually a win in my book.
If I loose while getting pre dropped and shift w key'd for around 5 minutes by all teammates, then that game can go down the bin.
Winning with great chases feels the best of course.
Winning with massive tunneling, slugging and camping feels awful. These matches feel more like the game being a job and you are the one that has to do the dirty work.
Very subjective question though.
I agree!
-
@[Deleted User] said:
Outcome is irrelevant. As long as both sides have a fighting chance. Too many things can make the game lob sided.
Also good day to you Onryoberry.
Lol good day!
What I find interesting is that if you ask people which matters more in their own personal experience, they will almost always say "why". However, if you reference game balance or game statistics, now the why is totally irrelevant and the win or loss is all that matters.
Interesting right?
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705383#Comment_3705383
requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over here crying about it.
If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook.
It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look, it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table.
"Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't
horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over
here crying about it.If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook."
No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook. The sole reason anyone would rather be hooked than slugged is because they want to exit the game early and give up which is something that shouldn't be encouraged. I would always rather be slugged. "Play like a normal person", so you mean aiming for a 12 hook game? Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
"It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look,
it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions
to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in
reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss
Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table."It's not disingenuous. The way you are phrasing this is disingenuous. We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here. I'd say I'm even being generous as I picked the most popular perk that is also considered by most the player base to be the best killer perk. So the "best" killer perk even has all these limitations.
I already said Deadlock is unhealthy design and I would change it as well. The difference here is that there are a few meta killer perks that I would agree are unhealthy whereas my statements above can be applied to most of the survivor meta and nearly all the exhaustion perks, which is the actual topic of this post, so I'd rather stay on topic. Also, Deadlock isn't even in the top 10 killer perks so we're being generous including it.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
-
@Yoshirama said:
But before we need to get rid of Pain Ressonance + DMS
You know you can just let go of the gen right before the hook and avoid DMS entirely? You don't even have to guess either, it literally shows their aura right before the hook.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705415#Comment_3705415
i predict that he is going to be next artist. so far Nightlight says he has high pick-rate. So far I am wrong. let's see how long it holds up.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705424#Comment_3705424
agree. Another newbie-stomp type killer. I like scottjund idea for buffing him. Make it so that survivor has to not look at the killer. Maybe if you look at the killer, he hinders you. that sounds like a more unique design then current iteration.
Yeah I actually love Scotts idea as well. That would make him such a unique experience to face.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705418#Comment_3705418
stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB, distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them. Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. They're easily most consistent anti-tunnel perks in the game. The popular ones have little to no drawback and often extend chases more so then OTR/DS.
"stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion
is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB,
distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this
with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them."Similar value in what you're using them for, I can agree.
"Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. "
Disagree. They're for extending chases. Extending chases can be for preventing tunneling, but it is not defacto always just for tunneling.
Just because something can be used for preventing tunneling doesn't mean it is an anti tunnel perk. You're using these synonymously.
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705429#Comment_3705429
“ pre dropping all pallets as an issue in design” yes that’s an issue if it’s bad maps like the game or badham which should get changes
“If you don’t clearly we aren’t playing in the same mmr” bro trying to sound superior about mmr when matchmaking doesn’t even work so it’s pretty pathetic to use that argument
“And how do you interpret what I said as "excusing deadlock"?
“ So kind of a required unhealthiness at moment unfortunately” there you excused it.
The reason you don’t see terminus is because of no way out is better and because of pop pain res and from embrace being meta. No saying the perk is great but the perk is far from garbage
"yes that’s an issue if it’s bad maps like the game or badham which should get changes"
This issue applies as an issue to like 80%+ of the maps.
"bro trying to sound superior about mmr when matchmaking doesn’t even work so it’s pretty pathetic to use that argument"
MMR can throw you off matches here and there but to say it just doesn't work at all is just factually untrue.
"there you excused it. "
If pre dropping is an issue, which it is, then you have no point in mocking me like I'm excusing killer perks. You attempt to imply like "oh killer perk is fine but survivor perk not, just because", when you know that's not what's happening.
"The reason you don’t see terminus is because of no way out is better and
because of pop pain res and from embrace being meta. No saying the perk
is great but the perk is far from garbage"No, that is absolutely not why. If NWO, Pain Res, or Embrace didn't exist at all, you would still see basically no one using Terminus. It has absolutely nothing to do with those perks existing, at all. It's just a bad perk.
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705414#Comment_3705414
none of your reasons were were valid. Lithe isn’t just vault a window and that’s it. You have to use it correctly. You have to loop correctly to use it effectively. Just vaulting a window might work against Freddy (he needs a lot of help), that’s not gonna work with all the other strong killers in the game. And it’s not even the best exhaustion perk that’s goes to sprint burst. The fact that you excuse dead lock is pretty hilarious since the perk just works passively with no input. I don’t think this perk needs changes btw it’s just funny how you excuse that perk.
terminus is not garbage it counters adrenaline (don’t give me the excuse that it doesn’t counter that speed boost because that’s not what the killer mains were complaining about with the perk) and keeps everyone injured in the endgame."none of your reasons were were valid"
Please elaborate then as to why they're not.
"Lithe isn’t just vault a window and that’s it. You have to use it correctly. You have to loop correctly to use it effectively."
No you don't. It is literally vault. The skill level required to get good value from Lithe is laying on the floor it's so low. There's a reason it's the most popular Exhaustion perk, it's because it's easy to get value.
"The fact that you excuse dead lock is pretty hilarious since the perk
just works passively with no input. I don’t think this perk needs
changes btw it’s just funny how you excuse that perk. "And how do you interpret what I said as "excusing deadlock"? I quite literally said it is unhealthy design and I would change it. I didn't give it a free pass. Unless you don't see pre dropping all pallets as an issue in design, in which case I don't believe we're playing at the same mmr.
"terminus is not garbage it counters adrenaline (don’t give me the excuse
that it doesn’t counter that speed boost because that’s not what the
killer mains were complaining about with the perk) and keeps everyone
injured in the endgame. "Running Terminus in case there's Adrenalines is bad game planning. There's a reason you don't see Terminus in the meta much less basically ever. It's not because it's good..it's because it's bad. There's a reason.
-
I'd put him in B tier and anything in B tier or below needs buffs imo.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705383#Comment_3705383
It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though.
these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying that they are mandatory for optimal results.
They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements etc etc. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use. The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng.
My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not. In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my opinion.
On a personal level, the perk that looked the most successful in term of anti-tunneling for me was Made For This. The 3% haste was incredible bonus for me. it allowed me to run killers for a long time. It is the one perk that I feel empowered my chases more then anything else.
"these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is
throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying
that they are mandatory for optimal results. "They are not contradictory statements. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I did not say they are throwing the game by not running an Exhaustion perk. That is not a synonymous statement with what I actually said. Zero reason you wouldn't run the perk if you wanted to win, is not the same thing as saying it's required to win. Completely different meanings.
"I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to
dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for
killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that
Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your
disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use.
The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add
unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng. "I agree.
"My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks
with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay
killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the
record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not.
In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much
like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited
use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them
is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my
opinion."Exhaustion perks are not anti tunnel perks. You get their value by just being chased and normal game flow, whether you're being tunneled or not. I agree that if survivors were able to they would run 4 exhaustion perks. Exhaustion perks being limited to 1 per survivor I would not stretch as "limited use". I also think, generally speaking, saying Exhaustion perks take skill is a huge stretch. I guess you did say it's easy skill though.
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705383#Comment_3705383
pain res you just get for playing normal nothing crazy if you ask me. Also dead lock noed terminus no way out activate without you doing anything. Am I saying those perks need nerfs? Absolutely not. Other than background player, nothing on the survivor side needs nerfs and nothing on the killer side needs nerfs either. Exhaustion is fine
I literally just listed all reasons why that isn't true and all the requirements of pain res.
Deadlock is free value and unhealthy design I agree. Problem here is that it's the only counter that exists for survivors just pre dropping pallets that also doesn't have counter play. So kind of a required unhealthiness at moment unfortunately. Ideally in the future when just pre dropping pallets wasn't as lucrative as it is in a coordinated group we could also change this perk.
Terminus is garbage and not even worth mentioning.
Noed is unhealthy design and I would change it as well.
I just gave you tons of in depth reasoning as to why Exhaustion needs changes and you basically just said "no it doesn't".