Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712860#Comment_3712860
You didn't suggest any changes to tunneling in your post, only that chase times should be shorter to the degree of 20 seconds
To me they're separate topics. You view them as one topic because of the aforementioned viewpoints we disagree on.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712825#Comment_3712825
thats actually a thing that showes me how skewed the matchmaking is.
in some games i hit bl 1 a couple of times but in most of my games i hit bl 1 every chase except the surv is heavyly misplaying and i hit bl 2 more then just a couple times. im cool with not being good thats no problem for me but when you guys say hitting bl 2 or 3 often is throwing then there must be a problem with the survivor i face or am i wrong with that
Yeah I can't even remember the last time I hit BL 2, much less 3. Do you have any of these matches recorded by chance? I could watch them and see what's going on.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712836#Comment_3712836
Let's not kid ourselves.
Tunneling would either increase or remain the same since it would be easier with chases designed to last 25 seconds.
No, no it would not. If they made chase times appropriate we could implement significantly more blockers for tunneling into the base game.
There's no point in this conversation, we already know we disagree on this topic. You think they do it for easier matches, I think they do it more often out of necessity and poor game balance. We've had this talk many times, it's not going anywhere.
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I think the prevalence of it is due to entitlement.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712812#Comment_3712812
i think about 80% of chases should be around 20-25 seconds but current average is around 45-50 second average.
Which, generally you're spending almost half that entire max time just holding w to catch up in order to start attempting to play a loop.
I agree. I think biggest imbalance right between weaker killer and strong killer is pre-running & the value of health-state. Like if you take an average killer like Demo, a smart survivor player can just pre-run for like 20 seconds before chase even begins and then when you do hit them, you get another 20 seconds of just hold-w. throw in a exhaustion perk or a safe pallet here and there and every chase is too long.
Yeah I agree. Most averages being around 45-50 seconds is why tunneling is prevalent since there's an extreme disparity in objective times from chases being way longer than they should. If the average chase was 20-25 seconds I think we'd actually see way less tunneling.
I feel like when we look at tiles that most survivors think are fair and what they think most maps should have they are the exact tiles that are too safe and lead to 45-50 second chases. The "bad" tiles they complain about are generally the tiles needed to reach 20-25 second chases.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712816#Comment_3712816
Yes in my experience its okay to hit bloodlust 1 but you shouldn't hit it often and hitting 2 is bad and level 3 is you are throwing the game
Yeah I agree with this. BL 1 a couple times can be okay but generally if someone’s playing properly they shouldn’t be getting this often at all. Especially not BL 2 or 3 though. I think anyone getting 2 or 3 is making serious misplays and probably throwing the game.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712817#Comment_3712817
When do you try to leave chase?
With Sadako I leave chase if I don’t take a resource, hit or condemn stack in 10-15 seconds. I make them come to me.
When I play plague though. Different story. I love her but I suck at her lolI'd say about the same on Sadako. I tend to try and make most my hits be post teleport TV hits from catching them out of position. Rarely will I just chase as an m1 unless they are out positioned or at an unsafe loop. It's more often hit, teleport, hit, teleport. Unless I get a 3+ condemn ping then it's teleport, teleport, teleport. Or I'll prematurely break chase if I can see someone going for a tape drop off/pick up and I want to cut if off.
Most Sadakos I see don't teleport enough and generally are just using it to get around the map. That's a mistake.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712812#Comment_3712812
I agree. I think 25 second chase is average. Anything past 30 seconds is decent. 40+ is good.
I agree. Most people are too hard on themselves. If you can prevent the hit for at least 30 seconds+ that's a good run for your team. If most peoples chases are that long y'all are probably winning unless they threw somewhere hard.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
less 25 seconds for killer. a long chase for killer would be something 60-90 seconds.
Yeah I would say anything longer than 25 seconds for a chase is losing the killer the game. Which, generally you're spending almost half that entire max time just holding w to catch up in order to start attempting to play a loop. This is before we even get into Exhaustion perks, pre drops, body blocks, DS, loops with forced pallet breaks ect.
Would you say the average survivor thinks 25 seconds max is a good/fair chase time? I would say most would say not, which is where the issue I feel lies. What they typically want isn't realistic.
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@TheArbiter said:
I mean you could argue that by looking at bloodlust, that kinda tells you how long the game thinks you should go before getting a hit, if you hit bloodlust 1 twice in a chase, then that chase lasted a little over 30 seconds, 50 seconds for bloodlust 2, and 70 for bloodlust 3.
Which I would interpret as by the time bloodlust kicks in they think the chase needs to be ending soon.
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DBD2 is not going to happen.
People would flip from losing so much progress and money invested on cosmetics and what not.
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@Cypherius said:
So you think we should rule by majority then? If you're building a plane should we listen to the majority that knows nothing about building planes or the few that do?
If we where to "rule" based on the best players i could just point you to Lyinxi who wins with Twins even against coordinated teams. Even before the buffs Twins got this patch.
Or how about Otz? In his tier list he placed Twins as at worst B even on bad maps/if countered. But at best tier A+.
Looking at high level players this Killer seems very strong even before the current patch.
You realize a hit "every 30/40 seconds" is the killer losing the game right? That is extremely slow. As a killer if you aren't getting a hit in sub 25 seconds max, you are losing the game.
Those 30 seconds are very generous and include cooldowns. Once Victor finds a survivor the hit is coming much faster. The ""chases"" are very short. Yes a 30/40 second chase is usually bad. I am aware.
Also my main complaint is the "free" part of that hit.
It's not assuming the Twins is bad, it's because even that that specific case is a smart play for them it's overall bad is it's killing their map pressure spending way more time on Charlotte lugging her around the map than they should be.
Downing 2 survivors is bad now? Most maps are not big anymore. And with slowdown perks and macro play you can afford to move her a little while you wait for Victor.
So your team is picking you up way faster even if you had already used it
That is a fair point. But i don't trust solo players to have the coordination to make good use of that.
Medkits run out fast because they're extremely good. By the time the medkits are running out you've already killed so much pressure the gens are almost done.
This is true versus most killers. Its kinda baffling how many people in these forums think medkits are bad.
But with Victor's currently high uptime he can burn though charges very fast. That was my point. Not really saying medkits are bad.
I try not to ever mention anyone by name as that can walk the line of breaking forum rules if anything said is viewed as negative so all my comments are in generalities.
Many popular streamers want the game balanced for different things with most of them wanting it balanced for average players, aka people playing bad. This is how the game is currently balanced and why it causes issues at the higher level when it's actually good vs good players. Winning against coordinated groups through tunneling which doesn't take skill or represent game balance and winning through hooks are representative of two different things so I would not use them synonymously.
So hypothetically if I wanted the game balanced for bad players as many popular streamers do I might have the same opinions they do, but I don't. I want the game balanced for good vs good players, and no I do not mean top 1%, I mean like top 20% or even 30%. My point with this is that pointing to things that popular streamers think on a topic can skew the perspective as their subjective end goal may be different. For reference though on experience I have as much hours in DBD as Otz does roughly.
30 seconds for chase is not generous as you are saying though, that's objective, it's the literally intended hostage hold time. Then you added respawn time of 10 seconds. So we're looking at 40 seconds just to get Victor released again..not even traverse the map or chase time, literally just spawning Victor.
I never said down 2 people was bad and is mischaracterizing what I said. You aren't downing two people in that scenario and what i said was bad was so much invested time on Charlotte keeping her close to every single Victor chase you make.
You say you don't trust randoms to pick you up but that is quite literally what the game is balanced around, solos. It's balanced around assuming you'll have bad teammates. This is why swf breaks the games balance so much.
As referenced prior, I'm not against adding more counter play to Victor, I even made a post with ideas of how to do so. I'm just arguing what Twins counter play is currently and that holding Victor hostage shouldn't be a thing as it's unhealthy design and why no one plays Twins.
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Vampire, Werewolf, and Spider esq killers need to happen.
I think BHVR has a very large untapped resource for killer ideas if they dipped more into "creatures" and less humanoid. Forcing themselves into mostly humanoid is limiting their pool of ideas.
Would love an amoeba type killer that's like a blob of goo/slime.
Survivors tend to want to spread out and split up as much as possible so I like the idea of stuff that forces them to group for the counter play and punishes if split up and spread out.
A time killer would be cool. Like they have a rewind ability that lets them swap places with where they were like 3 seconds ago. Maybe a secondary ability that swaps them where they were 15 seconds ago for map traversal or even higher level mind games.
Maybe a killer that alters the map, "The Mist". So like significantly more fog when you're playing against them and instead of a TR the thicker the fog is the closer they are, so it's like a visual TR. An ability that blasts the area with massive fog so thick it can not only make it hard to see the killer but also the loops/windows/pallets themselves. Running through the fog clears it away to encourage teammates helping as well. Could have like ultra rare addons that make using windows/pallets cause a bonus blasts of fog to be released each time, or an ultra rare that causes the fog blast ability to do the opposite and of blasting around the killer to help mind game loops it instead blasts everywhere a killer or survivor is not. So it trades your anti loop of the fog for covering the map and destroying map visibility for them. The killer could have vision that lets him see through the fog.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712753#Comment_3712753
This is not how language works. If the majority of a population understand a word to mean a certain thing, then the dictionary definition is what is irrelevant. It's called semantic change. Words change meanings all the time due to misunderstandings, appropriation, reappropriation, translations, etc.
And the definition has not been changed yet so until it is, that's the definition.
Most people don't know the correct forms of "there" or "to". That's "most" people. Do we now just get rid of all the other forms since most people use it incorrectly?
I could see an argument for saying it "should" be changed to include these further instances, but to argue the objective definition is wrong because most people are using it wrong and the definition just hasn't been changed yet would be a logical fallacy.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712728#Comment_3712728
If the developers of a game allow something then it really isn't cheating. That's taking the definition too literally and not allowing any room for pragmatism.
As said in my post, whether devs of a game allow something or not is utterly irrelevant to the definition of cheating. Many people misuse the word cheating in the terms you are referencing but it is technically cheating. Just because lots of people use a word incorrectly in majority doesn't mean that all the sudden that's the new definition, it just means the majority are using it incorrectly.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712733#Comment_3712733
This.
CCause If we only look at the definition then using ts is cheating to
Because "by definition" it is. We can all "feel" a certain way about the word "cheating" but by definition that is technically cheating. We can argue whether it's an issue or not, that's subjective, but the definition of the word is objective.
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If I was someone who only played survivor I would take that deal any day. That would drop the kill rates massively, like 20%+. In turn you’d probably see a massive increase to tunneling/camping as there just wouldn’t be time to make chases.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I say not cheating, but absolutely unfair.
Goodmorning friend!
The definition of cheating is actually an "unfair advantage". This would generally make them synonymous unless it was giving you an unfair "disadvantage".
People tend to use the word cheating in relation to whether or not the devs of a game allow it, however them allowing it or not has actually nothing to do with cheating by definition.
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@Cypherius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712527#Comment_3712527
Incorrect. I do care about the experience of the other side. I play survivor regularly and enjoy that experience, even against Twins, and even with slugging. Me not thinking slugging is an issue, is not me not caring about the other sides experience. Those aren't the same thing.
Considering the amount of people that complain about slugging yes it is part of their experience. You not caring about it means it does not affect you. But it still sounds like you don't care about their experience. "this does not affect me so its ok" is a selfish stance to take.
You don't have to communicate to stick together, there isn't coordination needed. It's common sense when you face Twins. You can play around Forced Hesitation. Forced Hesitation simply lowers the max distance you can be from the teammate you're grouped with for the kick.
You need to know where people are. Especially Important at the beginning of the match. Also i can't guarantee that my team mate knows the counterplay and i can't tell them either.
Forced Hesitation also makes it easier to down both if Charlotte is nearby. Why are we ignoring that possibility?
This is just factually incorrect. We can look at the heal/pick up times to compare the numbers. The only time this isn't possible is if Charlotte is extremely close to you, which usually isn't the case. I'm talking base kit here, not even medkits or healing/slug perks.
Again: Why are we ignoring Charlotte being nearby? If doing so lets you pressure and potentially down 2 people greeding the same generator. Why assume that the survivors are amazing and playing flawlessly but the Twins are just mindlessly sending Victor to his death? Even high level Swfs screw up. Its not a realistic expectation from a solo team. And its not fair to assume Twins are playing in to the counter with no adaptation.
Very easy if you're running any of those, and when's the last time you had a match with zero medkits or healing/anti slug perks? Very, very rare.
I like to run h
ealing perks. But most people i see don't do that. Medkits run out very fast when playing against a killer that gets free hits every 30/40 seconds. Anti slug? Aside from FTP + Buckle up i don't see many, And this one requires one person to be healthy already. Unbreakable is a little bit more common now but is a one time use. Not that it matters. You should not need specific perks to counter a killer in a game with no drafting.Their counter play does not require coordination. You just simply understand healing and grouping. You don't need to pass information through your teammates. Not knowing Twins counter play is a skill issue.
It does if the Twins is actually good at adapting, disrupting and spreading pressure. Its not as simple in practice as you are implying. Grouping up and healing is not the hard counter you are making it to be.
What is bad design is Victor being taken hostage.
Yes it is. Having a free hit available every 30/40 seconds is bad game design as well. Twins is not a well designed killer. I would be fine with them having short cooldowns/no hostage taking if point blank pounces where not so free to land.
"Considering the amount of people that complain about slugging yes it is
part of their experience. You not caring about it means it does not
affect you. But it still sounds like you don't care about their
experience. "this does not affect me so its ok" is a selfish stance to
take."So you think we should rule by majority then? If you're building a plane should we listen to the majority that knows nothing about building planes or the few that do? You're never going to please everyone. There are no rational reasons to hate Twins or slugging. I follow what's rational, not what the majority thinks as most can be irrational. My stance has nothing to do with "does not affect me", it's objective. "Fun" is subjective, but "something" is objectively more fun than "nothing". You can do nothing on a hook except remove yourself from the game where there are multiple interactions and things that can be done on the ground. I would always rather be slugged.
"You need to know where people are. Especially Important at the
beginning of the match. Also i can't guarantee that my team mate knows
the counterplay and i can't tell them either.Forced Hesitation also makes it easier to down both if Charlotte is nearby. Why are we ignoring that possibility?"
It's a team game, that's what DBD is. By saying you can't guarantee your teammates know the counter play is like saying, "what if my teammates are bad". Yes, if people play bad, they lose. That's how games work.
Charlotte is normally not that close by. It's a possibility yes, but rarely the case. In order to keep having Charlotte close enough by every single time they have to be playing very inefficient and spending more time on Charlotte than they should be. I rarely experience issues with this and I play significantly more than the average player for a large sample size of data. The exceptions don't make the rule.
"Again: Why are we ignoring Charlotte being nearby? If doing so lets you
pressure and potentially down 2 people greeding the same generator. Why
assume that the survivors are amazing and playing flawlessly but the
Twins are just mindlessly sending Victor to his death? Even high level
Swfs screw up. Its not a realistic expectation from a solo team. And its
not fair to assume Twins are playing in to the counter with no
adaptation."It's not assuming the Twins is bad, it's because even that that specific case is a smart play for them it's overall bad is it's killing their map pressure spending way more time on Charlotte lugging her around the map than they should be. So while beneficial in that immediate encounter it's overall negative for them in the game in general. You want to be spending as little time on Charlotte as possible. Also, if you want to assume the survivors are much worse then we can also assume the Twins is much worse and assume Charlotte is rarely nearby right? It goes both ways.
"I like to run h
ealing perks. But most people i see don't do that.
Medkits run out very fast when playing against a killer that gets free
hits every 30/40 seconds. Anti slug? Aside from FTP + Buckle up i don't
see many, And this one requires one person to be healthy already.
Unbreakable is a little bit more common now but is a one time use. Not
that it matters. You should not need specific perks to counter a killer
in a game with no drafting. "You realize a hit "every 30/40 seconds" is the killer losing the game right? That is extremely slow. As a killer if you aren't getting a hit in sub 25 seconds max, you are losing the game. You don't have the time to spend more than that in chases. So no, 30/40 seconds per hit is not an issue, it's winning you the game as survivor. Buckle Up is extremely good against Twins for the Endurances since it forces a Victor attach allowing a momentary Victor hostage every time. You're also ridiculously down playing how good Unbreakable is. It is not just 1 wipe reset. The increased recovery is in effect on every slug. So your team is picking you up way faster even if you had already used it. It's also completely meta and in nearly every single match at high mmr. You shouldn't need specific perks to counter a killer I agree, and you don't, they simply make it easier. Medkits run out fast because they're extremely good. By the time the medkits are running out you've already killed so much pressure the gens are almost done.
"It does if the Twins is actually good at adapting, disrupting and
spreading pressure. Its not as simple in practice as you are implying.
Grouping up and healing is not the hard counter you are making it to be."It's not simple. If it was simple they wouldn't be a good killer. It takes skill.
"Yes it is. Having a free hit available every 30/40 seconds is bad game
design as well. Twins is not a well designed killer. I would be fine
with them having short cooldowns/no hostage taking if point blank
pounces where not so free to land."Which is why I've made forum posts listing change ideas to Victor.
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It's still quite solid where it's at now, I don't think it needs buffs. I also can also see your buff being abused a few different ways.
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@Cypherius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712283#Comment_3712283
It would just seem selfish to only care about the experience of one side.
There is nothing inherently wrong with slugging and the hate of it is irrational. Twins also has tons of counter play
You complain about it being selfish to only care about the experience of one side them proceed to dismiss the experience and complaints of one side. Rather hypocritical.
Twins also has tons of counter play. There counter play is grouping and healing
Forced Hesitation screws that up. Its not hard to counter the grouping up if you know what you are doing. Also good luck coordinating that strat with solo queue randoms that you can't communicate with.
As for the healing: you need a strong heal/anti-slug build on at least 2 different survivors for this to work against a half decent Twins. Base kit healing can't keep up with Victor.
Just because a lot of the community complains doesn’t mean it’s a rational complaint, the average player in dbd is very bad.
That sort of statement only works when discussing weak killers/perks. Twins is not weak and requires coordination to beat, in a game where solo queue has no tools to communicate with each other. That is not a skill issue. Its bad game design.
"You complain about it being selfish to only care about the experience of
one side them proceed to dismiss the experience and complaints of one
side. Rather hypocritical. "Incorrect. I do care about the experience of the other side. I play survivor regularly and enjoy that experience, even against Twins, and even with slugging. Me not thinking slugging is an issue, is not me not caring about the other sides experience. Those aren't the same thing.
"Forced Hesitation screws that up. Its not hard to counter the grouping
up if you know what you are doing. Also good luck coordinating that
strat with solo queue randoms that you can't communicate with. "You don't have to communicate to stick together, there isn't coordination needed. It's common sense when you face Twins. You can play around Forced Hesitation. Forced Hesitation simply lowers the max distance you can be from the teammate you're grouped with for the kick.
"As for the healing: you need a strong heal/anti-slug build on at least 2
different survivors for this to work against a half decent Twins. Base
kit healing can't keep up with Victor."This is just factually incorrect. We can look at the heal/pick up times to compare the numbers. The only time this isn't possible is if Charlotte is extremely close to you, which usually isn't the case. I'm talking base kit here, not even medkits or healing/slug perks. Very easy if you're running any of those, and when's the last time you had a match with zero medkits or healing/anti slug perks? Very, very rare.
"That sort of statement only works when discussing weak killers/perks.
Twins is not weak and requires coordination to beat, in a game where
solo queue has no tools to communicate with each other. That is not a
skill issue. Its bad game design."Their counter play does not require coordination. You just simply understand healing and grouping. You don't need to pass information through your teammates. Not knowing Twins counter play is a skill issue. What is bad design is Victor being taken hostage.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712283#Comment_3712283
So you would say good players played it like that? Should we have seen that type of gameplay in comp then? Because they would know how to properly play against twins and not just hold Victor hostage? But oops we didn't.. So what could this mean?
"So you would say good players played it like that?"
Yes.
"Should we have seen that type of gameplay in comp then?"
Yes. We did.
I would say comp is a very poor metric for measuring anything though. They have a whole slew of separate rules that change what they run, how they play, and skew end results.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712281#Comment_3712281
It's either Haste or Hindered(for the survivor Victor is latched onto) since Victor already applies 3 different status effects to said survivor(Oblivious, Incapacitated, and Broken).
I'd prefer the Haste over hindered since it lets you actually chase other survivors as well and the Hindered wouldn't work for locker jumps.
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@ExcelSword said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711868#Comment_3711868
I know you are going off what Mandy said, but BHVR released a short on youtube only two days ago, that clearly states "At any time, Charlotte now has the ability to recall Victor to her side whenever she likes."
There is no ambiguity about recalling Victor latched on survivors being a bug, like Mandy claimed. Their own video contradicts that.
I will be accepting if they decide to implement a minimum time to recall latched Victor (just please not to 30 seconds), but if they claim it is a bug fix rather than a balance decision I will be peeved.I didn’t see that short they released so if that is true then yes those would be contradicting statements. Mandy seemed quite clear that it was a bug but if they do end up leaving it in the game then I take back all my complaints and I am happy with Twins now. I just lean towards thinking they are going to remove it and then that is a huge issue for twins. Whether or not Victor can be taken hostage is such a massive make or break for how fun they are or how strong they are.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712160#Comment_3712160
The issue with facing twins was the slugging, tge feeling that besides holding him hostage that there was no counterplay and that the chase interaction against Victor is pretty one-sided.. To say there was no issue facing them ignores all community complaints, considering BHVR even mentioned the slugging as an issue during the PTB rework
Slugging with Twins was not an issue. There is nothing inherently wrong with slugging and the hate of it is irrational. Twins also has tons of counter play. There counter play is grouping and healing. Grouping so that each down gets Victor kicked and the person picked up before charlotte can get there and healing because the only way twins wins is through chain slugging. So slowing the game down and keeping healed breaks their win condition. Holding Victor hostage was not there only counter play, that was just bad design. Just because a lot of the community complains doesn’t mean it’s a rational complaint, the average player in dbd is very bad.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712156#Comment_3712156
Essentially, yes, because the main problem with her gaining Haste during the PTB was that it actually made her slugging potential stronger since Victor only latched onto downed survivors. So I feel like it wouldn't be a problem with their current version since she wouldn't be gaining it while a survivor is downed by Victor meaning it's not gonna be buffing her slugging potential at all.
I’d be interested to try this. I know people really scoff at giving haste these days though.
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@Cypherius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712078#Comment_3712078
They could simply say something is bad but agree it would need to come with something on the other side
That should only be the case when both sides are in a similar level to each other. I do care about the experience of both sides as i don't main either role but Twins are not being neglected right now. They already got several "somethings"/buffs in the last patch. despite being tier A. A proper rework would have been better but they at least got something.
Zero changes where made to improve the gameplay experience against them. If anything it would be selfish to complain about survivors being given some improvement as well.
So long as a point blank Victor pounce is so easy to hit it would not be balanced to give him high uptime.
I would've put them previously B not A tier, and anything in B needs needs improvements. I would say they're neglected once they return taking Victor hostage. None of their QoL changes fix any of the reasons that made them unfun to play.
There was no problems with the experience of facing Twins. The only issue with them was being unfun to play because Victor was taken hostage.
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@ad19970 said:
I feel like Victor would need quite the changes to gain some counterplay. He would have to be much slower, and his pounce would have to be dodgeable. Seems very unlikely that Victor will receive such changes.
Any other ideas to fix him?
What do you think about those nerfs to Victor I mentioned for counter play?
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712065#Comment_3712065
That's not what I mean, but an easy fix to that is simply what BHVR were planning on doing initially with their rework where Charlotte gains Haste after Victor latches onto a survivor that lasts until either Victor gets ripped off or until she hits a survivor. That wouldn't encourage slugging since Victor doesn't latch onto downed survivors and would just encourage survivors to rip him off of themselves instead of trying to hold him hostage since all they'll be doing is messing themselves or even their own team up by not ripping him off.
So while holding Victor or Victor has someone in a locker she gets 10% haste as we had on the PTB?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712084#Comment_3712084
No, but I think the comp groups and groups with combined hour totals of etc etc etc are probably biased in favour of more active and aggressive playstyles because that's how you keep the game engaging after that amount of time.
The absolute, single best thing any team can do is hardcore genrush with a full stacked genrush build. Very few teams do this because it's kind of boring. They pick the more active tools, and the things that have a flashier win condition even if that win condition isn't guaranteed. See: The possibility of stunting on a killer that actually ate your DS, even if most of the time all you get is slugged.
Or maybe they don't get slugged most of the time. My post isn't even aimed at survivors, it's aimed at the killers who seem to not realise the way you counter this tactic is to just ignore the survivor trying it.
I think to assume all of these high skilled groups only do it because of entertainment purposes would be very misleading.
Also the best thing they can do is not gen rush builds, it’s stacking second chance perks because they know the only way the killer can win is through tunneling or slugging, of which those perks are the counter.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712074#Comment_3712074
I don't think all squads are doing it for fun, but I do think most of them are probably severely overestimating how good of a tactic it actually is. They're all probably banking on the killer actually picking them up, which would actually be to their benefit.
For that second part, I just disagree. Having one person on the ground and one person in chase is a worse setup for the survivors than one in chase and three on gens. It's a marginal amount of distance in most cases and it comes at the cost of one of the team members being immobilised, that's not to their benefit.
So all these comp groups I face and groups with a combined hour totals of going up to even 35k+ hours are all just wrong and don’t realize it but you you are right about this instead of them? Really?
All these groups with high hours aren’t dumb, they do it because it’s not as bad of a play as you think it is. You are looking at only net surface level value and ignoring all the other nuances. That guy going down is worth it if the guy the killer is trying to get is on death hook and that hit gets him to main building where he can buy a ton more time.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711864#Comment_3711864
Not necessarily... You can just complain and tell that something sucks as the consumer, it is technically not your job to do that for BHVR... I guess it would be helpful though.
It would just seem selfish to only care about the experience of one side. It doesn’t necessarily have to come with an answer to the problem. They could simply say something is bad but agree it would need to come with something on the other side. In other words they don’t need to do the devs job to care about both sides.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712062#Comment_3712062
"High MMR SWF teams" and such also choose to be flashlight squads or to go for Head On plays. They don't do these things because they win games - they often lose games - but because trying to be aggressive and attempting to bait the killer into eating stuns/blinds is more engaging than playing it safe.
You can't weaponise DS. The most you can get is forcing the killer to slug you, which I would argue shouldn't count because it isn't to your benefit in most cases.
Flashlights squads and head on plays are meme’ing and fun things. You aren’t talking about fun things, you’re talking about just standing in front of someone blocking a doorway to let their team finish a gen in time. I think to assume ALL these squads are doing it just for funsies would be extremely disingenuous.
Forcing them to slug IS in their benefit since it forced a hit giving the other person more distance to get away. That IS literally weaponizing DS. It’s forcing a slug that helps them.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711892#Comment_3711892
Twins aren't really a killer that can have any valid/reasonable counter-play. Also it's a bad idea to try forcing counter-play methods onto a killer who doesn't really have a design that could allow any reasonable counter-play because all that does is result in an "anti-gameplay" killer like Singularity where both sides can just completely deny each other the ability to play how they want.
The best and most reasonable counter-play for any killer with a ranged ability(regardless if it's a projectile, leap, etc) that doesn't force them into an anti-gameplay killer is simply dodging which is what Twins already have for their counter-play.
That's the only problem I have with killers getting designed with too much of a counter outside of the simple dodging counter-play and such because all it has really done is make it too easy for many players and thus all of those players behave like every killer should have WAY more counter-play to them than what is needed.
So you want it just left as is with Victor being held hostage?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712054#Comment_3712054
I mean, it is only halfway good in very specific scenarios. Even when survivors are trying to engineer those scenarios, it still breaks out in the killer's favour most of the time as long as they don't take the bait, AND all of the value you actually get when it doesn't break in the killer's favour comes from Endurance, not DS.
Even when it comes to minute to minute value, it's a trade at worst. You're trading perk value or an important generator for the opportunity to snowball, at worst. More realistically, you're just getting the value of multiple occupied survivors and wasted survivor perks.
It is DS adding this value as well, not just Endurance. Even if Endurance did not exist we would still see this scenario happening from DS. Also the sheer fact that high mmr swf groups do this scenario regularly in itself proves your point wrong. If it was so bad they wouldn’t be doing it. They do it because it works. It wouldn’t be so wildly common that we’re even having this post on the forums if it was a bad move to make. There’s a reason it’s a hot topic.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712041#Comment_3712041
Only if they're downed by that hit, at which point the correct play is still to slug them because it slows down the game more than picking them up.
It only breaks in the survivor's favour if we're in one of those super specific scenarios you laid out AND they only block one hit with Endurance, running away afterwards. They get that second-to-second value but they aren't gifting the killer a window to turn it around at the same time.
DS might compel them to let the killer down them, which is to their detriment.
You’re talking about it like it’s only good in very specific scenarios but the survivors “choose” when they want those scenarios to happen. So if they are doing it, it is that specific scenario. That slug also slows down the “overall” game, aka overall value and we’ve already talked about it isn’t always about overall value.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712036#Comment_3712036
I mean, sure, any slight extension in chase can be a big deal in the right circumstances, but I don't see how that really affects the overall point here.
It's also worth mentioning that none of what you're describing has absolutely anything to do with DS. The slight extension to chase we're talking about comes from Endurance, not DS, because the only thing DS is doing is compelling that survivor to run around behind the killer like a headless chicken.
You can absolutely weaponise Endurance. You cannot weaponise DS.
It absolutely has to do with what we’re talking about. DS being active is preventing his pick up after the body block. Whether he eats the DS or downs and continues to chase they have gained the second to second value they needed. If they didn’t have DS in that scenario it wouldn’t put the killer in the lose/lose scenario that it does.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712029#Comment_3712029
Yes, correct, the overall value is the part that matters. The overall value here is much higher because you're occupying multiple survivors, which both slows down the survivor objective and puts you in a better position to progress yours.
They might pop that one generator. That's about all they're getting with so much of their team occupied, though. One generator doesn't matter unless it's the fifth, and even then you've got time.
You’re severely downplaying how important that second to second value is. Getting that one gen done at that moment before all the regression can activate can be worth a lot more than you’re realizing, even when it’s not the 5th gen. That could be the break of their 3 gen and now their final 3 are on opposite sides of the map. Overall value is not always more important than second to second value. Realizing this would change your entire stance on this topic.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712013#Comment_3712013
You don't really need those perks to proc if you're occupying two survivors with the same chase, and as for Unbreakable, I think it's even more to my benefit if I'm getting survivors to waste two potentially high-impact perks for no real benefit.
A survivor on the ground may be less good for you than a survivor on the hook, but it's still significantly better than a survivor up and doing gens, which is what this outcome needs to be compared to.
The absolute best I can say for this argument is that there may be some slight back-and-forth even though it still breaks in your favour ultimately. That's kinda it. You're trading a perk proc for a different kind of value.
You’re focusing on overall value rather than second to second value. Yes getting unbreakables out of the way and pressuring two survivors at once is great but the reason to do this is buying precious seconds to finish popping a gen right before they can hit it with that PR or right before they can get there with a Pop kick ect. It isn’t always about overall value. That isn’t two wasted perk slots.
Sometimes two cups of water now, is worth more than two gallons an hour from now even though a gallon is objectively better.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711992#Comment_3711992
How?
Survivors choose to do things that throws the match all the time, most of the time because it's just more fun than playing it safe and doing the most optimal thing.
So, how is them getting slugged worth it? What do they gain out of this?
Survivors in high mmr and 4 man swf aren’t doing it for the funsies, there’s a reason. They do it to deny a PR proc, GE proc, delay a Pop activation, protect someone else that is on death hook ect. All things that provide more value than them going down, of which very often also run Unbreakable to remove the downside anyway.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711984#Comment_3711984
How is it weaponised when the thing that they achieved - being hit and slugged - is detrimental to them?
It is not detrimental to them. The shear fact that they choose to do it proves this. It is a net positive for them to do so. Them getting slugged is worth the hits blocked from the person you were trying to go for.
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No, that’s just wrong. Saying you can’t weaponize it just because you’re not “forced” to pick them up isn’t a rational statement. The shear need to sometimes hit them or down them just to get them out of your way has already delivered the intended value whether you pick them up or not. Anyone who plays at high mmr would agree it can be weaponized, this isn’t a debated fact. The only debated part is how much of an issue it is or how counterable it is.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/413015/addressing-twins
"Second we could remove blood and silence survivor sounds while on Victor."This would also make Twins borderline not fun to play as as well since those are the ONLY ways to track survivors as Victor and, due to his crazy low camera FoV, you wouldn't be able to see over anything meaning you wouldn't be able to visibly track survivors as him at all on cluttered maps.
I mean that is a valid point. Just trying to think of new counter play ideas. Do you have an idea instead?
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711853#Comment_3711853
It could also have range tied into it as well as volume, but I just said volume due to the fact that not everyone uses the visual terror radius setting.
If it had both I’d like this change. Remove the directional feature from it as well.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711856#Comment_3711856
The directional lullaby effect she has is a bug specific to her. And my idea is to keep her lullaby the same(hopefully with the exception of the directional bug), but have it behave differently so that she'd have a little more stealth capabilities that start off strong and slowly gets worse over time. It'd essentially be a way to balance out her early game and late game strengths because at the beginning of the trial she'd have no strength from her Condemn, but she'll have strength with her stealth and as the game progresses her stealth strength weakens because her Condemn strength is increasing.
Actually we have confirmation that it is in fact not a bug, the directional lullaby is intended. We tried posting it in bugs and were told this.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
because twin slugging wasn't an issue. it is how they're suppose to work.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711824#Comment_3711824
i have to admit, i am playing them a lot more on daily. It is just so nice to have a killer that counter hold-w play styles in victor.
If they were going to stay like they are now I would feel the same way. Unfortunately it’s bitter sweet because exactly what’s making them enjoyable right now is getting removed soon.
I agree, slugging wasn’t an issue with them.
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Yeah getting kicked on Endurance hits was super annoying. Like it was punishing you for landing your hit.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711822#Comment_3711822
I mean to be fair the whole killer is bad design in that sense... The design aims at slugging and offers very little counterplay against experienced twins players besides holding him hostage... So that is the lesser evil compared to a stronger version that is just as frustrating to go against.
Well I suppose my argument is that people should be recommending an alternative or a change to alleviate that problem, not just welp I’d rather you suffer than me.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711805#Comment_3711805
add-on passes take too long. i rather have perk passes because…. at least perks affect every single killer. survivor perks also barely get changed besides decisive striking getting buffed and Adrenaline staying the same.
I mean if my options are addon or perk pass then yeah I’m gonna take perk pass.
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Volume wouldn’t work because it would still be detectable by the heartbeat system. What you should do is just replace volume for distance at which the lullaby is detectable. So same concept but distance instead.