Blueberry
Blueberry
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The only real issue with Billy is his addons. I think his base is fine.
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I didn't think this was even a question.
There are lots of times when camping and tunneling are the best choice to make.
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If we were going to touch him at all, I'd be closer to buffing him than nerfing him.
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@Vetrathene said:
Well lets see, as most of the killers have no map presence and BHVR keeps making larger maps that favor survivors, without slowdown perks those killers are severely weakend. The fact is that its the tip of the iceberg as BHVR wants to nerf even more slowdown perks, taking more power away from already weak killers. Wheras survivors still have BT, which just got buffed, and DS, which is still super strong after the nerf, and honestly in some ways even stronger then it was before. SUre medkits got nerfed, but really only one got actually nerfed, the other one is still an extra health state for 15 seconds that has no counterplay. Keys are still a problem while moris have been nerfed. I, and I am sure other killer mains like me, are just tired of it.
The medkits actually got buffed, the only nerf was those 2 addons. The medkits heal other survivors much faster now. Agree on your point though.
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They need to be tweaked, but not until we fix the games imbalances like maps, toolboxes, keys and gen speed.
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Seems like a solid B to me.
You just have to drop pallets early with him similar to Clown.
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Plague and Demo, they both have lots of issues but I would say they are better than most give them credit for.
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DS, BT, Unbreakable, SWF, Map, Kills, how many pips
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Devour Hope is how strong a Hex perk is supposed to be. Ruin isn't there.
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I haven't had an issue with it.
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I think it's interesting seeing the amount of DS, BT, and SWF in all these games yet were told the play rates of those are much, much lower than what we see here. These plays rates reflect my games as well.
Granted only 100 games but it still seems telling.
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As others have said, it's an extremely meme build.
Your team has to be extraordinarily bad for him to even come close to getting it to work before the gates are open.
It does not need nerfs in any shape or form.
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I don't really see an issue with Exhaustion addons at all from either side. If the survivor isn't running an Exhaustion perk it's completely wasted anyway.
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Infectious Fright was better than I originally gave it credit for.
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If they cleanse a totem it should remove the effect for the team but force them to be debuffed by it.
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I disagreed with him heavily about DS being fine and I don't mind the monetization of The Rift, but everything else was pretty on point.
I don't get how they point at really good killer streamers to say killer is fine but then when it comes to survivor they point at low rank new players. Why don't we point at the survivor main streamers that regular broadcast Bully With Friends? It just seems like quite a double standard.
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@Goat_Worship said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1030002#Comment_1030002
So tell me why the best killer I have ever seen, with a 98% win ratio at red ranks ranks, swears by it and calls it the best killer perk in the game?
https://mixer.com/ProVengeance
Throw on whispers if you have a hard time finding survivors.
None of the "best killers" call it the best killer perk.
You are basing too much opinion on watching videos instead of having the experience in it yourself.
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@Goat_Worship said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1029971#Comment_1029971
Literally solved by corrupt intervention. I have no idea why everyone is ignoring it.
Many are ignoring it because it isn't as good as you think it is.
Corrupt Intervention can screw you depending on the map and your spawn where there are still open gens on opposite sides of the map. You also get good survivors who just ignore the gens for its timer and now you wasted a perk slot for nothing.
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Not 3 seconds into the map loading and Discordance activates on 2 gens, both on complete opposite sides of the map.
Yes, we use Discordance and no, it doesn't come close to solving the "gen rush" problem.
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@ddubuckyee_user said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1026845#Comment_1026845
The shape perk? Thx!!
Yup, np.
Basically you just always shred if possible on your obsession so that you spend most the game sitting at full 8 stacks. For it not to take a stack you only need to hold shred for a split second, not long at all.
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@ddubuckyee_user said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1026818#Comment_1026818
Hey. What is STBFL?
I don't know the English names of perk. Sry
Save the Best for Last
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I like Discordance, Pop, BBQ and STBFL.
STBFL is S++ on him.
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I have a soft spot for Fixated.
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I actually think it's the licensed "Tank" killer from L4D. It fits the wall knock down theme perfectly.
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Against good survivors you have to. If you play "fair" against good survivors you lose.
This is why DS, BT and Unbreakable are crazy strong, they force you to play "fair" aka lose against good survivors. This is why "near" all survivors are running the same perks give or take a couple at red ranks.
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@Ghost_Face_Main said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1025654#Comment_1025654
What buff could Any Means Necessary receive? I feel as a survivor and killer player, the 2 minute maximum cooldown is appropriate as to not abuse pallet resetting so quickly.
So few pallets get left to lift that I don't see the cooldown having anything to do with the fix.
I'm worried this rework is gonna translate into rebuilding broken pallets...that's terrifying.
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75% of the killer roster doesn't have a toolkit good enough to properly apply pressure with how strong loops currently are and how massive most maps can be.
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Pretty lackluster.
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A lot of killers need buffs, but Legion is actually flawed in design. He needs a rework to change how he functions.
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Map design.
Size and many loops being too strong.
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The maps looks gorgeous.
Gameplay wise it doesn't seem like an improvement over the old version in any way.
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I completed it
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4 SWF with 4 toolboxes.
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@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1023024#Comment_1023024
you forgot its also a hex perk
scott jund described it best, TO STRONG to be a regular perk
to weak to be a hex perk
The funny thing is that also describes almost all the other hex perks that no one runs lol
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I like using maps with Inner Strength
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If I 4k it means there was a significant skill difference or they just played really bad that game.
Some games I do badly and it's because I messed up a lot, but most games I lose wasn't because I got outplayed but just because they knew how to do gens fast. All chases sub 15 seconds and still a loss.
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I've played a few games on Lery's as Demo with no issues.
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"All killers simply do not have enough time to "Apply Pressure" when survivors are optimal on gens."
I think this is the key take away from this.
75% of the killer roster simply does not have a good enough tool kit to properly apply enough pressure with how badly designed and overly large most maps are.
Many maps need the strength of their loops weakened and their sizes shrunk down.
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@NullEXE said:
Hawkins Lab is very balanced. I win just as often on that map as Killer as I do Survivor.
I kinda feel the same way. My favorite map on both sides.
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The Autohaven maps. They are so plain and uninteresting.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1021856#Comment_1021856
Camping and tunneling isn't meta though...could you link a meta killer game so I understand the most efficient strategies? To me the meta is pressure gens and end chases fast.
Pressure gens and end chases fast is the meta. The problem with that statement is that 75% of the killer roster doesn't have a good enough kit to do that adequately against good survivors and with the majority of the maps being so poorly designed.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1019569#Comment_1019569
Not really? Survivor perk loadouts depend on playstyle. Those perks are just s tier in annoying aggro, not overall.
I disagree and I think most people would as well.
Those perks are S tier in all scenarios.
If the killer doesn't camp/tunnel etc to where those perks never activated then you already won anyway. If you didn't then your team was bad. Playing "fair" against good survivors to where none of those would have activated is how you lose.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1021702#Comment_1021702
Actually the definition of tunnelling is going after the same survivor over and over to rehook them. This can be done in a few ways and but the most common is hitting them after being unhooked. This is exaclty what DS is designed for so you cant rehook them again after doing that. To allow you to hook the other and then hook the other again with no downside basically goes agssint what the perk is supposed to do.
The game is a 4v1 yes but you are not a team. As solo you are a bunch of randoms who are out to save their own skin. If someone dies in a match an you escape how does it affect your outcome? Teams win or lose as one they arent rewarded seperately.
I never camp and tunnel and play at red ranks and most of my games are 3k as I like to give the hatch a lot. i dont feel I need a 4k each and every game. Yes I get beat a few times but I take that as I was outplayed which will happen. Sorry but you are still advocating the use of these strats which the devs clearly made these perks to disuade people from doing. If you choose to play that way and they activate then you alone allowed these perks to be used.
Your whole argument with BT doesnt really make much sense. The perk is desgined to combat camping. A save while someone is being camped is never be truly safe as in most cases you will take a hit or swap places on the hook. It seems you want players who use it to get actively punished by campers? no DW means you can be slugged and they have a free hit on the other. which can reward a camper with 2 hooks.
Camping should only really be non punishible by BT at end game imo as once the gens are powered I feel securing a kill should be warranted.
"Actually the definition of tunnelling is going after the same survivor over and over to rehook them."
Rehook being the key word here. Downing them is not tunneling, hooking them right after would be.
"This can be done in a few ways and but the most common is hitting them after being unhooked. This is exaclty what DS is designed for so you cant rehook them again after doing that. To allow you to hook the other and then hook the other again with no downside basically goes agssint what the perk is supposed to do."
If you hooked someone else while they were downed and then came back to hook them because their team did not pick them up that is not tunneling. The team had plenty of time to help them and either chose not to or they misplayed hard.
"The game is a 4v1 yes but you are not a team. As solo you are a bunch of randoms who are out to save their own skin. If someone dies in a match an you escape how does it affect your outcome? Teams win or lose as one they arent rewarded seperately."
Being randoms doesn't mean you aren't a team. Most people don't go back for a save at end game when the killers camping because they want the blood points, they go back because they don't want to leave a man behind.
Here's a quote for the definition of team:
"A team is composed of members who are dependent on each other, work towards interchangeable achievements, and share common attainments. A team works as a whole together to achieve certain things. A team is usually located in the same setting as it is normally connected to a kind of organization, company, or community."
Winning or losing as a whole has nothing to do with the definition of a team. You simply share a common goal in wanting to all escape. Your most important goal may be your survival, but it is a team game.
"Sorry but you are still advocating the use of these strats which the devs clearly made these perks to disuade people from doing."
The devs also clearly condone the behavior and accept it as fair play. If you hook someone to turn around and see 3 survivors running circles around the hook that is a scenario you have to camp in unless you want to purposely play dumb. My point is not that survivors shouldn't have counters to tunneling and camping. My point is simply that those perks are currently too strong and need more counter play.
"The perk is desgined to combat camping."
And my point is that is does so too effectively. It is a game swinging effect with zero downsides and zero skill involved. My change keeps its purpose of saving the camped person but simply asks the rescuer to make a save with even a tiny bit of thought involved.
"A save while someone is being camped is never be truly safe as in most cases you will take a hit or swap places on the hook."
Many of the camps are indeed saveable if done properly as very few are actual face camps. Even if the scenario does go as bad as possible and it is simply a hook trade, if the rest your team is freely pounding gens in this time yall will have won the game anything in the time the survivor is sitting on the hook. Hooking trading in a camp scenario if done properly as the rescuer is a losing scenario for the killer.
"It seems you want players who use it to get actively punished by campers?"
Only if they make a stupid save.
"no DW means you can be slugged and they have a free hit on the other. which can reward a camper with 2 hooks."
That's only happening with a stupid save.
"Camping should only really be non punishible by BT at end game imo as once the gens are powered I feel securing a kill should be warranted."
Camping shouldn't be punishable in the first place. The devs have stated many times that it is a valid strategy. Face camping you should just be doing gens because he is throwing the game. If he's just regular camping then my BT changes would work perfectly well as there are windows to make good saves if played properly. This is also the majority of the camp scenarios.
Now what I would argue for is that killers need more incentives to leave hooks so that it is not as good of a play and people do have more fun when there is no camping.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1021565#Comment_1021565
Hitting someone immediately after being unhooked would fall under the definition of tunelling. What would you call going immediately after the one off the hook instead of the unhooker? DS is after all to try and avoid that strat. If you then went after the unhooked instead then you effectively nulifty DS with the time decrease. It's a way to get the player to actively not chase the one unhooked to death.
You mention the word team which I think is a common mistake. DBD is not a team game its 4 people with a common goal but if you escape it has no bearing if the others dont. This is to stop some random from ruining someones match. As the killer you are in control of your choices while as survivor you aren't always.
This is why my proposal means you shouldnt want to slug as its not beneficial. What is beneficial is not hitting the one unhooked as you can remove DS from the game.
If you feel you have to tunnel and camp in some games then tbh these perks are actively designed to stop you from doing so. What you are then asking for is a way so you can do those if you feel you need too. Unfortunately this would be abused by those who just want too and dont need too. I am giving a solution to those who fall foul of them by not actively tunnelling or camping and randomly finding survivors again which is the main issue imo.
I don't think BT can work with swapping hits. What if the player is already downed? Do they still get the mend timer? It also makes it less of a perk for solo players as without being full health it no longer does what its designed to do but punish the player who uses it directly. They are risking themselves for others alot more as yes thet can be hit but then the skill of the random player affect them. That could also be abused by campers by hitting the unhooker letting them unhook and then hitting the unhooked one hooked one so you have one more hit and then both would be down. Swf sure they would risk it as always but they can coordinate saves anyway and shouldn't need it.
"Hitting someone immediately after being unhooked would fall under the definition of tunelling."
I disagree. Hooking someone immediately after being unhooked is tunneling. Only downing them is to create pressure to make other survivors get off gens to come save them and to punish the rescuer who made a bad save trying to farm them.
"You mention the word team which I think is a common mistake. DBD is not a team game its 4 people with a common goal but if you escape it has no bearing if the others dont. This is to stop some random from ruining someones match. As the killer you are in control of your choices while as survivor you aren't always."
I think you are wrong with this. It is a common mistake to say this is a 1v1, it's a 4v1. Your goal may be your escape, but you aren't accomplishing it alone and however solo your mindset may be, the killler is going against all 4 of you. Your last sentence is also wrong, you are in complete control of your actions as survivor. You can choose to let them die for gen time or just to wait for the hatch.
"This is why my proposal means you shouldnt want to slug as its not beneficial. What is beneficial is not hitting the one unhooked as you can remove DS from the game."
And by following this advice you lose the game. You are creating zero pressure playing like that. Against an optimal survivor team you aren't winning like that.
"If you feel you have to tunnel and camp in some games then tbh these perks are actively designed to stop you from doing so. What you are then asking for is a way so you can do those if you feel you need too. Unfortunately this would be abused by those who just want too and dont need too. I am giving a solution to those who fall foul of them by not actively tunnelling or camping and randomly finding survivors again which is the main issue imo."
If you don't feel that some scenarios require camping or tunneling then we aren't playing the same game or at the same ranks. Every perk should have counter play. You are giving a solution to those being punished who aren't actively camping or tunneling but at the same time weakening killer pressure in a world where most killer pressure is already too low. We don't need that last caveat included.
"What if the player is already downed? Do they still get the mend timer?"
They would still have the hit blocked, no DW, just blocked. If the persons already downed then they can't be injured again.
"It also makes it less of a perk for solo players as without being full health it no longer does what its designed to do but punish the player who uses it directly."
It is doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is protect the person being unhooked. This just prevents completely unsafe unhooks with zero thought involved. It's also important because it's adding some risk/reward with the perk seeing as it is a game swinging effect currently with zero downsides and just strong in all scenarios.
"That could also be abused by campers by hitting the unhooker letting them unhook and then hitting the unhooked one hooked one so you have one more hit and then both would be down. Swf sure they would risk it as always but they can coordinate saves anyway and shouldn't need it."
Exactly! That's entirely the point of the change. It's supposed to make the rescuer actually make a good save and not just yolo in with zero thought for anything and have no cost whatsoever. Current BT has allowed survivors to learn nothing about timing a good save because of this perk, they have no reason to. They make a bad play and don't get punished for it.
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@Almo said:
Pig is in the higher ranges for Killer performance. It's unlikely she need a buff. Having said that, there are a few odd things hanging around (like Ruleset #2) and we'd like to do an addon pass eventually.
Killer performance based on what? Those kill stats yall released have multitudes of factors that they do not take into account to where they're near worthless in terms of determining balance. Most experienced killers and survivors will tell you Pig is weak.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1020604#Comment_1020604
You seem to be missing the point.
If a killer choses to slug the hooked one first they get punished by having to wait longer to pick them up as in essense that us by definition tunnelling. This makes tunnelling less viable overall.
If they chose to go after the unhooked one or hook them when they are downed after saving they get rewarded as the timer goes down by half.
If you just deativate it completely then a killer can slug the unhooked one first, hook the other and then rehook them in essense tunnel the unhooked player. It's no longer anti tunnel as its very easy for campers to adopt this strat.
Another change could be a BT hit. It doesn't punish the killer and the timer still halves since they have the extra hit.
What the change should do is give players a chance versus certain strats as its designed to do but not punish the killer as heavily for not hitting them. It needs a certain amount of protection but not so it gives 2min immunity in the match when the killer is not tunnelling.
The DS change should help with BT in this scenario as they would have under 26s and counting which is nothing. BT is op as it is due to DS as it is now imo as many just instantly unhook knowing they can't be picked up for at least 50s.
"If a killer choses to slug the hooked one first they get punished by having to wait longer to pick them up as in essense that us by definition tunnelling. This makes tunnelling less viable overall."
If they downed and hooked someone else after you were slugged then that was not tunneling. He hooked someone else and they had time to be saved while he was after the other guy.
"If you just deativate it completely then a killer can slug the unhooked one first, hook the other and then rehook them in essense tunnel the unhooked player. It's no longer anti tunnel as its very easy for campers to adopt this strat."
That is not tunneling. They had plenty of time to be saved and the team chose not to, that was their misplay.
The problem with current DS is how abusable it is in many situations that aren't camping and lack of counter play. Just slug isn't enough counter play as many times you are not able to do that as slugging itself is a very high risk play, not to mention everyone running Unbreakable now so you get left with no option. Against good red rank survivors there are times you have to tunnel or camp, if you play completely "fair" against good survivors you are losing or they are playing dumb.
I'm not crazy about that BT effect on DS as then it doesn't feel like a unique perk any more. A BT hit does still punish the killer btw.
I think BT should act as a hit trade. It transfers the hit from the person being rescued to the rescuer. This preserves its purpose of protecting the person on the hook while stopping the completely unsafe unhooks that have zero downsides and is game swinging.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1020571#Comment_1020571
If you reread my post you will see the timer only goes up when slugged if they are downed before the other person is hooked. This is to stop someone farming them and the killer downing the farmer and then the one unhooked one instantly.
If the person is hooked before you down them the timer even on the ground is halved 😉.
BT well its strong but I would argue not as strong as before as both had the effect so you got three hits as an unhooker where as now it should be more about swapping the hooked person. The only issue is a DS user and why my proposed change to this is to help with this exact scenario.
"If you reread my post you will see the timer only goes up when slugged if they are downed before the other person is hooked. This is to stop someone farming them and the killer downing the farmer and then the one unhooked one instantly."
I did read it multiple times. That's why I said "There's no reason the time should increase for a person on the ground after another hook as that is in fact not tunneling" I am referring to exactly what you just mentioned. As I mentioned this is unnecesarry as that is plenty of time to be picked up at base and would not be farming because of that.
"If the person is hooked before you down them the timer even on the ground is halved 😉."
That isn't realistically happening unless they're dumb.
"BT well its strong but I would argue not as strong as before as both had the effect so you got three hits as an unhooker where as now it should be more about swapping the hooked person."
It went from busted OP to just slightly OP. It still rewards bad saves with zero thought or cost and asking nothing of the survivor with any downsides.
Just make hooking a different survivor deactivate any active DS's and I think that would be good enough.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1019569#Comment_1019569
Did you look at the post I replied too?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1019800#Comment_1019800
That depends how you look at it.
SB for example was originally 20s and recovered while running so could be used multiple times. It's a far cry from what it was a it gave multiple sprints in one chase. All the exhaustion perks also had a separate cooldown so you could chain them. That's a pretty major change to them which was needed but major none the less.
The post was at the same time as this post so at the time I had not.
However I don't agree your change would be a good one. There's no reason the time should increase for a person on the ground after another hook as that is in fact not tunneling. 60 seconds to be got up at base is ridiculously long and since he downed someone else you had plenty of opportunities to be picked up. There's no reason for a time increase in that scenario. A time decrease for others after a hook would make sense though as those others were not being tunneled, so that part is good.
I would also apply my original statement to more than just DS even though it is the main example with BT being another.
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Nurse isn't what she used to be at all. She's lucky to just make A tier.
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There is such a double standard in this game.
Both "gen rushing" and "tunneling" are the most effective way to win the game, yet gen rushing is considered fair and the survivors just doing their objective, yet tunneling is considered toxic and for some reason not the killer just doing their objective.
Both lead to not fun experiences for either side.
I agree with your point though OP.