Ayodam
Ayodam
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- Ayodam
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@Annso_x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585198#Comment_3585198
Is it actually ? I was super excited for it but I ended up not even buying the chapter because the perk seemed really underwhelming
It’s situational as most survivor perks are but I think it can be fun. It doesnt hide scratch marks so you’d need to pair it with another perk to get maximum value. I don’t think footstep sounds are the main way killers locate survivors. When I play killer I can’t even hear them over the TR music/ambient noises and I have a good headset.
@OP: unfortunately none have made it to my rotation. The best survivor perks for me tend to be older.
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BGP isn’t very common in my games but I’ve noticed an uptick in people complaining about it. Maybe the devs should revert it back to what it was? Then no survivor would use it and you wouldn’t face the frustration of experiencing it 1 out of 20 matches. 🤷🏽♀️ I’ve never liked it myself. I wouldn’t even notice if it was gone.
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Ranks were hidden for this exact reason, then they came out with prestige and like… didn’t hide it, or even provide an option to hide it. I dunno what BHVR was thinking. They literally made the same mistake and are looking into correcting it the same way.
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People complained about both of those perks after DH was nerfed & before MFT released. I know a handful of killer mains are here saying they’re fine (now) and that people won’t complain about them (a lie), but I guarantee you in a month or more you’ll see a bunch of killer mains complaining about them. Again.
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Smurfing. They don’t want survivors at their level; they want to face weaker players.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581814#Comment_3581814
I mean, 2 minutes is 120 seconds while it takes 90 seconds to finish a gen, so yes it is absolutely possible for 3 gens to pop in that time assuming survivors dont spawn right next to each other. I figured you meant 1-2 minutes as a range, not that 1 minute was an expectation (because yes, that wouldnt even be possible with BNPs and perfect rng.)
So again, yes, it does go both ways.
So when it comes to repair time you have to account for survivors 1.) finding gens, 2.) initiating repairs, 3.) the killer finding one survivor to chase who hasn’t started a gen, and all of these factors increase the time it would theoretically take to finish those gens. It’s not a flat 90 seconds and a scenario where three gens are completed in two minutes would mean that three survivors all start repairing generators at the exact same time within literal seconds of the game starting. The only other way this could be feasible is that the killer is so bad he didn’t find a survivor before three of them at least halfway finished three different generators. It’s extremely unrealistic either way. So… no. It doesn’t.
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@appleas said:
Playing Killers that give side objectives to Survivors helps a bit like Sadako, Pinhead, Wesker etc.
The intended slowdown that devs had for Killers was spreading injuries and Survivors spending time to heal each other. This was somewhat nullified by MFT + Resilience, meaning Survivors ignored healing to do gens faster.
With the upcoming MFT changes. Survivors who are less confident about their chase capability without the 3% unconditional haste boost will probably opt to heal before doing gens.
I’d like to point out that before MFT survivors had the weakened healing and still weren’t healing. MFT wasn’t the cause. Survivors prioritized gens because healing was nerfed & it’s just way smarter to push through gens than waste time trying to heal.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581729#Comment_3581729
There are also times where the gens actually do go that fast, but neither can be confirmed nor denied without video to run it back and count. There's room for both.
There is in fact no non-hackable way 3 gens can pop in 1-2 minutes while a killer chases one survivor. So no it doesn’t go both ways.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Do you have some gameplay to review?
@Rulebreaker said:
We would really like to see some of these matches. Not comp or tourney or anything as such, just random in the wild matches where this happens.
Don’t hold your breath. Lol
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/396607/whats-going-on-with-gens-lately
It sounds like you ran into one or multible cheaters. Other then that, those numbers wont match up by simple math.
A lot of killers underestimate how much time they spend in chase. They say gens pop in 1-2 minutes when they’ve really chased the same survivor for like 3+ minutes.
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Well, the survivor version sucks so I’d want a killer version to stink too. I personally think your suggestions are too good.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3577339#Comment_3577339
I've missed anything happening to Window of Opportunity (Powerful but not OP IMHO).
As for "Prove Thyself", I remember it was only slightly nerfed recently, probably because gens are flying fast nowadays. Are there people wanting to reduce it further?
Yes and gens weren’t flying because of PT. They’re completed because healing isn’t worth it so survivors remain injured and work on gens, survivors have no incentive to do anything but gens (boon perks stink, hexes aren’t really much of a threat unless they’re NOED, and survivor items are pretty bad so no point in chest diving), and it has always been more efficient for survivors to split up on gens rather than group together. Killer mains thought, somehow, that by nerfing so many secondary survivor activities survivors would not understand they must focus on gens. I guess the belief was they’d still roam looking for chests, waste time healing and setting up boons—all at no real benefit. Surprise, surprise; most survivors aren’t imbeciles. Basically killers wanted everything survivors could do to include some sort of basekit gen slowdown.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3577273#Comment_3577273
You still here? And you still doesn't understand what you read?
First, told me where I interchanged those terms outside of referring to "1 survivor - 1 gen" scenario where basically are the same, as the base progression for a single survivor is 1 c/s.
Second, if instead of doing a gen with another survivor, you try to find another gen and get chased instead, the number of charges lost and not pumped in another gen are only 53 charges, as you would just only had spent 53 seconds doing the co-op gen, not 90. That was the example I gave in my other post, arguing precisely that nothing guarantees that those 53 extra charges you would get from splitting progression would by pumped on another gen.
To finish:
Whereas two survivors working on separate gens is 53 seconds x 2 = 106 charges.
Yeah... that's what I was talking about, hence the "(charges)" after the "106 seconds" as that is how everybody wrongly refer to it even in this post and I myself said that earlier, so I made clear that those are 106 "charges", not "seconds" as someone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576299#Comment_3576299
It takes 2 survivors ~53 seconds to do one gen entirely (without prove), which is 106 survivor seconds
So, your argument with all this is what, exactly? Or are you just cherry picking every little thing you believe I'm wrong about at this point?
The point is no matter how you slice it, it is more efficient for survivors to complete gens separately. Prove Thyself does not make completing gens faster. You can ignore the math because that’s really all you need to know. The joke is on you, hon.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576862#Comment_3576862
Right, that's why comp players, who aren't even allowed to use Prove, will typically stack a critical gen. What works in a vacuum isn't what works in practice.
Couple of things hon:
1.) Comp isn’t actually a singular thing; different competitions have their own rules (and sometimes what one competition bans may be ok in another).
2.) Comp in general has a lot of inane rules. I wouldn’t use that as the litmus for what’s good or bad in this game.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576653#Comment_3576653
Saying Prove is garbage is one hell of a hot take though.
It’s never really been good and is just bad now. It’s almost always, always more beneficial for survivors to split up on gens. Heck, 2-4 survivors running individual gen repair speed perks and grouping up (to, say, break up a 3-gen) are actually more efficient than just one of them using PT. Killer mains complained about survivors grouping on gens, PT was nerfed. Now, I see complaints about survivors splitting up to different gens. Because that was really always the best choice.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Im all for changing perks to reward for actions. Survivor perks synergize fairly well as an individual but even more so when counted as the 16 total for a team. So much utility from the perk roster should be tempered by having the players earn the most beneficial effects.
This makes zero sense. You have some of the most confusing takes.
1.) Perks on both side synergize. Survivor perks aren’t more synergetic than killer perks. I’d personally argue the inverse.
2.) One survivor loads into the game with 4 perks. They have zero say in what anyone else chooses, so there’s no guarantee that what that one person chooses will ‘synergize’ with some one else’s loadout. Doubly so since most survivors bring the same perks, which isn’t synergy but duplication.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
it was only 3% mft defenders said, that was a lie and topics like these are proof. You still have your beloved 3% you just dont get it for free or indefinitely anymore.
perk is balanced.
now its ultimate weapons turn.
Is Ultimate Weapon on the chopping block?
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574269#Comment_3574269
How many times do I have to bring up other games to prove you are just wrong. It's almost sad how many times you have repeated this.
You could start by bringing up a game that’s an assym horror-action party. You know, something relevant.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574098#Comment_3574098
No but they do know if the mechanic didn't work that way they wouldn't be left with a 3v1 with 4 gens up. Its not fun as killer. Doubly as survivor. I wish in overwatch or tcm or other games i could say "im not having fun let me just die instantly" but thats not the case. You qued and those games keep you in until you die for good. Or the game ends.
They could still be left with a 3v1. People could AFK, give themselves to the killer, or sabotage the game in other ways. You can’t force someone to play the game in a way you’d like—period.
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@SirCracken said:
The criminally low amount of upvotes on this post speaks volumes about the DbD community's entitlement.
Literally every other multiplayer game highly discourages if not outright punishes people who rage quit. But because the devs put in a mechanic that allows you to "lawfully" rage quit it's suddenly completely fine the ruin the game for everyone else in the match?
Pure delusion.
You dunno that people only die ‘early’ on hook due to rage quitting.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573742#Comment_3573742
Semantics. The point they were trying to convey is that punishing quitters is a common practice in online pvp games. You can add other genres to that as well, DBD is an outlier specifically because it doesn't prevent ways of going next and ruining the game in the process (bypassing their own disconnect penalty.) Also note how there is no killer equivalent, barring opening an exit gate once they're powered. Part of why the comparisons make sense is because they affect the team side more than the individual in the asym formula.
It’s not an argument of semantics as none of those games are even in the same category (assymetrical) as DBD. Is there another game where one player (killer) can unilaterally decide if another player (survivor) gets to play the game at all?
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@Crowman said:
The devs intentionally left the mechanic to instant die on hook by not hitting 2 skill checks. They could have easily have just removed that feature when they reworked 2nd state from button mashing.
You can't really report players for using game mechanics.
Removing the feature would hinder killers as it allows more time for other survivors to rescue the hooked survivor. There’s really no way to force survivors to play out a match that doesn’t negatively impact other players. No other MMO has this issue (or the ability to force its players to play games). DBD definitely won’t be the first.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573322#Comment_3573322
This discussion has come up so many times. The devs seem to think it'll be abused and might make queue times worse (tbh I think if someone is getting blocked so much they're having trouble finding a game, then maybe it's deserved...). Anyway, I've said before we should each get like 5 or so block spaces each so can only block a limited number of people.
How do other MMOs deal with this?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573343#Comment_3573343
No problem. But could you give killers the ability to open the gates at any point of the match, for the same reason, please?
I’d love this, personally.
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@not_Queef said:
The fact that so many people think that tunneling is "playing normally" is really quite depressing.
It is though? Why do you think BHVR has thoroughly nerfed anti-tunneling perks and mechanics? Lol. Tunneling is totally acceptable gameplay & y’all need to embrace it. Because what are you really gonna do about it? Quit?
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It’s nothing new. Killers have literally always tunneled. I see it more than any other strategy (slugging and both forms of camping) and have for years. It’s the most efficient way to win.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572578#Comment_3572578
No, as its still an active trap. Its timer is simply paused
Idk if this was a glitch or not but I thought at one point if your trap was active, Pig slugged you and you crawled out of the gates the trap didn’t kill you. And I thought if it was active but she picked you up, carried you to the gates and you wiggled out it didn’t kill you either. Something about her carrying you over the gate threshold rendered the trap inert.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572397#Comment_3572397
The problem with that is that if you want people to actually stop using meta tools, there are only two options: Buff everything to meta level (deeply problematic, see: release Circle of Healing), or nerf the top stuff.
Otherwise, you'll get an influx of good viable perks (Furtive Chase, Gearhead, Crowd Control, Claustrophobia...) and nobody will bother using them because their current builds work just as well as before and still work better than the newly-buffed alternatives.
I'm not personally saying I want them to do this, to be clear, I still want those bad perks buffed just so that they are available for me to use, but I do think it's a mistake to assume that'll do anything to the overall meta.
An issue, perhaps the issue, with nerfing the top perks to be as weak as every other perk is that it’s going to further grow the power imbalance between roles (kill rate grows beyond 60%—and I’ll explain why in a moment). Nerfing perks without buffing anything is just going to highlight the fact that in this game survivors are totally perk-reliant, while killers have powers/abilities and base-kit mechanics that aren’t reliant on perks at all. So they’re less affected by perk nerfs that target both sides. Like if neither killers nor survivors had any of their current meta perks, or really any perks at all, one side edges out quite extremely. It would simply be too imbalanced. And this would lead to attrition that the devs don’t want (see Death Garden).
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571490#Comment_3571490
The only map rework to produce more dead zones within the last year has been borgo which is getting its max pallet count increased to 18. The Gas Heaven and Blood Lodge rework just made the main buildings even more accessible by spreading out the fillers more evenly to the point where I played survivor and didn't even try because I could just W to the next pallet before a killer could attempt a mind game.
The Coldwind maps, also reworked this year, now include a lot of dead zones. The reworked Eerie has more dead zones than it did prior as well. So no it’s not just Borgo.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572087#Comment_3572087
The reason I brought up where I’m located is MUCH different from the reason you did, and you know that.
I’m not complaining about lobby dodging? I hardly get dodged lol.
Overused, overwhelmed, over it.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571965#Comment_3571965
No, it’s a small log showing data that suggests dodging because of being p100 is not really an issue in my region and mmr. Not sure why you feel the need to bring up where I’m from?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571981#Comment_3571981
I don’t care if you believe me or not. I’m telling you these are the exact reportings from my games yesterday. Whether you believe it or not, doesn’t matter to me. You’re a stranger on a DBD forum.
I think people exaggerate on here. A lot. I took the time to collect data that supports MY experience and MY belief, that being dodged for being p100 doesn’t happen much, and for my region and mmr, that is evident. Even with full SWF of p100’s, don’t see it.
If you’re experiencing something different, feel free to create a product to debate with.
You brought where you’re from up first. You said NA which I think means North America? I think lobby dodging happens in every region but many people who complain about it are from North America, just like you. 🤷🏽♀️
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571957#Comment_3571957
You’re telling me, excluding the time you WAIT to get into a lobby, you sit in the actually game lobby for 10-15 minutes getting dodged over and over?
I’m not talking about matchmaking time.
And no, I don’t believe it. Refer to my results.
So this small sample size of yours convinced you that lobby dodging is a rare, far flung thing..? Is this like some American form of a persuasive argument?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571465#Comment_3571465
Yeah but the difference is you dont have to be necessarily good at the game as survivor when they just increase more and more pallets/strong main buildings or windows to waste a lot of time for the killer. Simply because spreading on gens is a thing a LOT of the killer roster can't compete with to the point where even mediocre survivors could reliably 2-3 out if they focused on escaping.
It seems that map reworks are producing more dead zones and fewer safe/good pallets. What does that mean for your belief that bad or mediocre survivors can win by wasting time on loops?
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570085#Comment_3570085
What do I actually say that seems to be killer sided? I am a self admited blight mains who knows he has op add-ons, I dislike people being able to leave games whenever for free(survivors), I dislike 3-gens, camping killers and think the game should tune down tunneling. The only reason I might seem killer sided is because I argue about blight with more knowledge about him than 99.5% of the people on this forum. I genuinely have played a lot more survivor than killer for the past year and a half now.
You make a one or two sentence snide remark hating on killers or expressing something heavily survivor biased. Dunwick does the same thing for killers albeit definitely more biased just with many more words.
For what it’s worth, I don’t personally think Blight is overpowered. I do however believe survivors are weak. 🤷🏽♀️ That’s about all in your comment I feel is worth addressing. Oh, and his name is Dunwich.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570430#Comment_3570430
Why , oh why, do we always have to go down this road? We all know both sides make stupid demands for nerfs.
Hmm. I don’t think I’ve seen survivors calling for senseless perk nerfs; if they do, those threads don’t get traction because this forum is notoriously killer-sided. I do however see killers complain about not only mediocre survivor perks, but terrible survivor perks by demanding they need nerfs—ergo this thread. Like the OP is literally complaining about Breakdown—a super rare perk that does next to nothing. I believe I have seen Breakdown maybe three times in over 900 hours of playing. And in every instance, it did not prevent the killer from hooking the survivor. Clairvoyance and Left Behind are better value. So yes I can see killers complaining about them.
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@Sava18 said:
In all my time playing this game up to 300 hours after the first 10 playing doctor I probably had a 60-70% kill rate. I don't think I ever hard tunneled and camping was relegated to an end game for me other than when I was securing a stage. I played Hag, nemi, ph and bubba, during prime CoH and God validation dh. Like I might main blight now but that meta was far harder to deal with than the current one. People suck at this game, genuinely be better.
Why are you always doing these super one sided posts? Ayodam was the first one to reply and they got a ton of upvotes but they are a reverse mirror of you. All they say is from a biased survivors perspective, you are the same for killer.
The only time I ever was going super try hard was like a month into blight getting 4X dh, iw, UB and filler perk. That was only because I was so fed up with seeing the same 6 perks that I refused to allow survivors to win at all.
I feel you’re one of the last people to call out anyone’s bias. You’re quite killer-sided, at least here in this forum. And I am no where near the inverse of Dunwich.
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The thing I never understood was that killer mains wanted survivors to have a secondary objective and boons (CoH, really) filled that task. But it was complained about—rightly or wrongly—until its nerf. Now no one really runs any boon perks, and it leaves me thinking killer mains want a mandatory second objective for survivors that has no benefit whatsoever to the survivor, which is unrealistic. I think boon perks are best forgotten.
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@Nazzzak said:
Any Means is about resetting loops, Alert is about knowing where the killer is, and Windows is about knowing what pallets haven't been thrown down or destroyed. I don't use MFT, so can't speak on that combo, but I think the sudden popularity of WoO has more to do with solo queue getting harder to tolerate and players feeling like they can only really rely on themselves now. I've been playing for 3 years and for 2.5 of those years I never even considered WoO as part of my build. It had zero appeal to me. It's recently become a staple, I use it often. I can't say exactly what has changed, as after 2.5 years I've got alot of map knowledge up my sleeve already so it's not about that.
I've also theorised before that the recent cutting down of pallets in map reworks may be playing a role too. When there aren't alot of pallets to begin with, and alot more dead zones, people want to know in advance exactly what they have to work with.
It’s this and the fact that BHVR is nerfing top survivor perks. Those that maybe have been, say, the 6-8th most popular are naturally going to rise in popularity as 1-5th are weakened. There will always be some sort of META.
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I know you’re a killer main, but how often do you play survivor?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567375#Comment_3567375
Again that would still make it side based on ping but not favor one side or the other which would feel worse for both sides instead of being consistent since half the time you would still get hit like that and half the time killers would have half the amount of time to react and hit over a pallet or window with no visual difference.
Its a 1v4 game this should favor the killer because its their objective
Exploiting bad game design is the killer’s objective? It’s more reasonable to prioritize the faster internet connection. Otherwise, what’s the point of having a faster internet connection?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567023#Comment_3567023
prioritizing ping would make it inconsistent which is worse than favoring one side or the other getting hit half the time and not getting a hit half the time both would be terrible
It shouldn’t be side-based, it should be based on whatever player’s info connects with the server first. Like in every other online game.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567023#Comment_3567023
They tried to do that with first versions of hit validation. Didn't work out.
It isn’t working out now. But the way they say it works is that hits (at pallets and vaults) favor killer, while grabs (like off gens and previously hooks—not vaults) favor survivor. Not true for the latter, though.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567024#Comment_3567024
Thompson House has a gigantic dead zone bottom left (considering the house is top middle)
Damn. Then they’re all bad…
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566352#Comment_3566352
Boy howdy, this game is getting more fun each update /s :(
Yeah, Coldwind was butchered. There’s one variant that’s kind of balanced (Thomson House, I think?) but the rest are now killer sided.
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@bjorksnas said:
Well the formula for ping hits over windows and pallets are probably Killers ping x2 + your ping. Meaning on ~50ms you have an additional 150ms that you can be hit over that pallet on top of how long your hitbox lingers which doesn't have an exact number but is probably something like 0.5s. To be fair if it worked the other way around killers would likely never get hits over windows and pallets even if it expressly looks like they should and in a 4v1 game I think the game should favor the killer's hitbox perspective because otherwise there will be a lot of jank if survivors are favored. New vault speed build 0.3s vaults, good luck killer timings and power hitboxes
It shouldn’t prioritize perspective; it should prioritize ping (internet speed). So while the person with lower ping (a result of faster internet speed) should of course have the better outcome, as is the case in virtually every other online game, in DBD the person with higher ping is prioritized as like a pity. Well, with killers. For some reason low ping doesn’t benefit survivors. Not sure what that’s about.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566721#Comment_3566721
Its not "y'all", its me making a suggestion that could be soley a me-problem. But judging from the response , and the nice discourse we got here, I think that I am not the only one who sees the problem at hand.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566722#Comment_3566722
Thats some good point you make here. One thing thats related to this is killer spawn, too! When I spawn at the edge of the map, I have a pretty good general idea where at least one survivor could be. But sometimes I spawn smack in the middle of the map with gens basically all around me, and thats aweful. Its basically a coin toss in which direction to head and it could very much happen that I patrol two gens, but chose wrong and by the time I head back 3 gens pop without me so much as seeing a glimbs of the survivors. A survivor going down in the first 20s of the match is nowhere as punishing as this, and there is no "git gud" or "game sense" involved, its just a coin toss and if you lose, you lose the match right at the start.
Were you not one of those killer mains screaming for a nerf to Prove..? To your suggestions, at the end of the day BHVR isn’t going to nerf a core aspect of survivor gameplay without concession. You can’t have survivors inefficient on single gens but also inefficient when grouped on gens. You basically just want gens slowed down so you have more time to kill survivors.
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What in your mind is an infinite loop?
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@Yatol said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565509#Comment_3565509
infinites are still present in Crotus and springwood
Those aren’t infinites.
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I mean y’all wanted Prove nerfed and so it was. Lol. Now you don’t want survivors splitting up on gens.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566171#Comment_3566171
But the complaints were about camping and aggressive unhook denial, not the killer standing too close.
Yeah, when people complain about camping it’s proxy camping that they’re unhappy with. Face camping is pretty rare. It does suck for the person stuck on hook but it’s an uncommon situation and removing grabs was probably enough to solve it.