Archol123
Archol123
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742830#Comment_3742830
The thing is the Blight player was 15h into his stream and made obvious mistakes he wouldn't have if he was a little more rested and the reason it is overtuned is because it required comp squad survivors and a series of Blight mistakes to get a 2man out in a game that doesn't even have a separate ranked playlist. About 1900 games, most of those with pre-nerf addons, were a waste of time for 4 people because they had no hope of escaping just alone for the fact that the most important skill survivors need against mobility killers, coordination, is not allowed by the game itself. On top of that the lack of knowledge that the killer will comp it out and survivors being encouraged by archives to essentially goof around though this is beside the point. You can bet it wasn't the first snipe attempt on his streak, it was just the only one that worked.
I still don't really see where this is supposed to be over tuned?
OK so the Blight player used the strongest stuff, just like the people trying to end his stream, both sides were really good, Blight made mistakes and lost because of that, sounds fine to me? I guess if the survivors were even better than those they might have gotten more people out, or broken streak earlier... Saying it required a comp squad when the killer player is basically also playing on comp level does not really add anything...
The game has no unranked mode though, it has a ranked mode where it matches people according to their mmr... You fail to point where the issue is Blight as a character and not just matchmaking... Did the Blight face survivors on that level every single one of his 1900+ games so that it would have been reasonable to assume that he could lose the streak? If not then it is a matchmaking issue... If you put Serral against your friends plat 1 friend in Starcraft 2 he is going to win 10k games in a row, and nobody would say something about balance... It is just that Starcraft has proper matchmaking so dumb stuff like that does not happen, but dbds matchmaking is trash. That's why such streak have so little meaning, because the grounds are uneven because one side is just way more skilled then the other one for the majority of games.
Well sure it must have felt like a waste of time for most survivors that went up against him, but once again, that is a matchmaking issue, because they were not of equal skill as the Blight player. And also an issue with the gap between solo and swf when it comes to the gap in information, obviously.
But tome Quests also make killers goof around? I would not blame that one tome Quests... Both sides don't know how the opposing side will play, so if you want to make sure you win you need to play in a certain way, that goes for killer just like it goes for survivor... Ofc it sucks for those on the receiving end, but this is also not an issue with Blight, but with the general design of the game, because everyone is in the same queue you don't know what you will get. But once again, the issue is that matchmaking puts people against this guy that are a. Nowhere near his skill for the vast majority of the games (which gets further benefitted by the game not having communication) b. That don't take the match seriously, because their only goal is not to just escape for a streak. However none of this points towards Blight being overpowered... This all just goes back to matchmaking being unable to give the guy a 4 men comp squad every single game and the game itself limiting solo players in their coordination...
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743162#Comment_3743162
It is hex with requirement on top of it, where effect is worse than normal perk. In what world is that good?
The duration is shorter than blind/stun killer gets and it's not difficult to run blind on most maps, especially for such a short duration.
It's so bad I wouldn't even consider it noob stomping perk.
Maybe he just mean the general idea of it and not the numbers themselves? I mean if the perk blinds you for like 3-5 seconds it might be quite good.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742069#Comment_3742069
I've seen you cite the "383 survivor win streak" stat a number of times. Funny story, there's a couple reasons why that's not a good argument for the current balance of the game being fair. Let me list them. Heck, I'll even start with the one that seems to make your point stronger.
First, the guy who did that escape streak ended up doing another escape streak that got over 500+ wins. Why not use that number instead of the smaller number? I only bring this up to point out that you need to do your research better.
And I point out you need to do your research better because Second, the rules for that escape streak were actually quite interesting: the streamer would queue up in a Survive with Friends, and the win condition was him escaping. Unlike other streaks like Hens et al. requiring a 3 escape, or Tony and his SWF requiring a 4 out, the only condition for that streak to continue was him escaping. His entire team could get wiped at 4 gens left and if he got the hatch he would still keep the streak. IMO having a team goal of getting a VIP out as your win con is like a killer streak where the goal is to make sure the obsession dies - you're not playing DBD at that point, you're playing Protect the President.
To be fair to him, the scenario of a team wipe with a hatch escape rarely if ever happened, he was a quite strong player and so were his teammates, but there were a fair few 2k games, and 500+, or even 383, are not numbers indicative of the level of balance survivors have as a team against killer, because those weren't team wins.
Third, those streaks were played on a version of the game from over 4 years ago. Gens took 80 seconds, DH for Distance was a thing, DS was active in endgame, Hatch spawned midway through the game and multiple people could escape using a key. Also, MMR simply wasn't a thing. Even if you could use that number as a barometer for game balance (you can't for reason #2 above) it would at absolute best be an indicator of the game balance and matchmaking from before 2020. The game has changed so much since then it's just inaccurate to compare them IMO.
Well in that case we take the escape of Hens and his friends which was like 230 or so... Still quite massive, I would assume that there could be higher ones out there as well. However Hens streak had limitations, quite big ones even, no items and offerings brought from outside unless gained during the match, no replicate perks and what not... I would assume their streak would still be going if they brought the strongest stuff only...
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743149#Comment_3743149
Lol of course it helps I'm not arguing that, I'm simply stating that a strong team will still be strong without the comms , I genuinely don't even get why you're arguing at this point you agreed earlier that a strong player would still have game sense without communication and now I feel like you're trying to troll or something by changing the subject of the argument everytime you reply, so I'll make myself more clear , a good swf will be a good swf even without communicating even though it does help them they don't have to have it and chances are they're BSng in a voice chat because they're friends, a weaker team can be slightly stronger with comms BUT it doesn't make their skill go up they still go down fast and still make bad decisions and really only a killer that's worse than them to begin with will feel overpowered and helpless because skill doesn't just magically appear when the mic gets turned on
Sure, but it will be even stronger with comms... I'm just saying that there are things that cannot be done by game sense alone, there is a difference between what can be known with game sense and what cannot.
It helps them with efficiency for sure, I don't think the killer needs to necessarily be weaker than them to feel overpowered... Even if they go down fast they can still reliably spread up in a certain way and use their advantage in the macro game to negate their lack of skill in chase.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743073#Comment_3743073
ghostface is unlikely to be a good killer. The whole point of ghostface is downing survivors before they get to a tile. This and 99% marking.
Sure, but it does not always go that way... How does the saying go "no plan survives first contact with the enemy", sometimes you just need a few seconds longer. I just don't think we should mess with movement speeds too much.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743147#Comment_3743147
Well, predrop is also going to deny main part of this hex. Blind is 100% optional too.
If people do it anyway, then it kinda means the perk is simply not threatening enough for survivors to even care and try to counterplay it.
Just a fact that survivors are not able to greed and have to predrop against Spirit fury can save you lot of time and survivors not always have chance to predrop.
You are still wasting 2 peek slots for people to pre drop and you not getting much out of it ^^
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743144#Comment_3743144
Well if you actually watched the video a wall was right behind him, he literally caught the survivor at a wall smh
I didn't really argue around the video but the situation in general.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743138#Comment_3743138
See but you're arguing about weaker players and I'm arguing that about strong players not being affected it's 2 different things were discussing here, I will say that even if they are weaker communication won't suddenly give a weak team the edge unless the killer is just as bad as they are
It will give them a benefit, increasing their odds of winning, is that not enough already?
Well on better players communication is massive... Not only for the macro game but also to decide where you go, because you can just know which resources are still up, you don't need to use certain perks that help you with that. Killers will already struggle against good players, but I don't think you can deny that clock callouts and information about everything that is going on during the match is a valuable resource to have... Take indoor maps for example... Ghostface on Lerys... There is reason why he gets played on that map in comp, and why it is entirely possible for him to even win, despite Ghostface overall being on the weaker side... There are a lot of situations where information is key, and it is just available when you can ask your team things.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743139#Comment_3743139
When you want to use Enduring, then Spirit fury is way better combination, no?
Counterplay is exactly same, but Spirit fury is almost guaranteed to give you hit/down.
Short blind is kinda irrelevant, when many players can run blinded anyway.
Kind of, but people tend to just pre drop against spirit fury, while they might still take the stun in certain situations, I'm not entirely familiar with the perk, but since it also works with blinds... Does it also work with perks like blast mine or stuns that are not induced by pallets?
Spirit fury will work once, and then people just pre drop ^^
I guess, unless they don't expect it, I think it could use a bit of a numbers change.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743128#Comment_3743128
I stated it's possible no offense but do you have a thing with following me around the forum? Lol
Nope, I have no clue who you are, I don't really remember names of people in this forum, would lead to biases and judging opinions by the person who said it and not just the opinion itself.
You just made it sound like the killer can do much about avoiding it, unless there is a wall he can look at I don't think there is too much you can do to avoid a background player flashlight safe, sure you can look around for a bit, but that makes it possible for players to come closer in the first place... I guess it much more depends on the survivor to get the angle and be lucky to not get spotted.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743118#Comment_3743118
They should just do old crow (6%) basekit and nerf/rework his speed addons that make him inconsistent to verse. Also opens up room to add speed reduction to strong addons w/o them making him unplayable.
I guess, but messing around with his speed just pushes such addons back by alot... Quite a lot of Blight players tend to say that speed is everything on Blight, so using an addon that reduces speed would need a massive upside to be usable when it does reduce speed.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743125#Comment_3743125
Like what? That perk is simply terrible.
There are way better perks to use against pallets.
Make the duration same as your stun/blind and it might be valid.
Combine it with enduring I guess, just because a synergy exists does not suddenly make it a good combo ^^ It is also a quite fun idea that the survivor suddenly gets blinded ^^ So maybe it serves a purpose as a meme perk.
Obviously there are better perks, which is why I said it is not a good perk... Enduring is a good perk.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743127#Comment_3743127
See and I disagree because smart players won't give the killer time to setup, if I'm facing a trapper I'm immediately taking in chase when I see the trap on the ground as I spawn in because I now have the information and can't give him time to set up any area, as for stealth I mean yea you could probably argue that but 9 times out of 10 that's still not changing the situation because let's say I'm being chased by Ghostface and he cloaks up and leaves me for my friend nearby on a gen, I don't have to tell my friend anything the HUD tells him I'm not in chase anymore and the terror radius suddenly disappeared, it's about game sense at the end of it all and if a group has that then communication is irrelevant and won't matter either way , they could all be muted and still win
So for the Trapper example if you do know it is a Trapper and you know where is and that he is placing traps then maybe you will do that, but if you just spawn in and sit on a generator you will probably not find out so quickly, but maybe your team does and then you can do something about it. Also it still provides weaker players exactly that advantage, because they maybe don't play optimal because they are not constantly disarming his traps, but they do call out where he has been and therefore where traps can potentially be... It maybe does not grant the same advantage for players on all levels but it does grant some... For example coordinating to hold a trap open so you can vault a window or something, that is an advantage and you will not be able to get your mate to do it for you because how would they know.
The HUD does not immediately tell them you left chase, this takes a few seconds, either you are exposed anyway or he just 99%ed you and then left in which case OK, what if he is still on you though? During those few seconds the HUD takes to stop the chase animation, this can be enough for him to get into a position to stalk the person on the Gen. For Myers this works even better because his heartbeat is quite small anyway, and taking an unexpected angle is super hard when you have a person following you around from safe distance and telling everyone to pre run... I would say that is quite a big difference, same goes for Ghostface... You see better players might able to negate such benefits, but worse players won't and on indoor maps it just does not matter whether you are good or bad if a Myers with a 6m terror radius pops up right besides you, there is nothing you can do even with game sense... While you might able to understand that the survivor you saw close by with bond was the one chase and when the chase on the HUD stops he might go for you, this is something a swf on comms can just call out without even needing bond...
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@The_Krapper said:
It's possible but it pretty much depends on the skill level of the killer and your own timing whether you get it , whoever was playing killer just picks straight up and that's a dream for every flashlight user I mean of course it's possible whenever you look into the wide open like that with no shades (lightborn)
Like no offense what does it matter? A flashlight safe should rely on the timing to blind while in animation, so whether you have to walk around and get the safe or with background player and get around while looking at you because you were hiding or what not, in the end it only depends on whether you get the angle or not... If he gets control of his character and is able to turn away the he probably can also remote hook, the whole debate seems to ignore that if done properly the blind goes through before you get control back over your character.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742011#Comment_3742011
Swf is a non issue people overestimating their own skill is the problem, if the killer player isn't good enough in 2024 after all these changes they're never gonna be good without tearing the game completely apart to give them a clear advantage, that's the cold hard facts whether anyone here can accept it or not. Swf hasn't been broken for a couple years now and in fact I bet you beat them alot of times without even knowing they're a group, a solid group with communication at the core of it is still a solid group and even if you take communication away it won't take the skill away from those players they'll still do gens and loop just as well while making plays for eachother.
While True in its core I would say it neglects the benefits it has against setup and stealth killers... There are just certain times when it gives you a benefit that cannot be gained otherwise, but ofc it does not suddenly make survivors better in chase... But it can give them more of a warning when and where to run.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742825#Comment_3742825
And I remember your post where you said hex: two can play is a good perk.
Looks like we've all said some goofy stuff, huh?
Hm... Maybe not good, but it has synergies and can work I guess?
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@LeFennecFox said:
Probably PTSD from blight when he had stuff like c33, alch ring, adren vial, blighted tag, and old double speed. Once killers get a reputation for being op/annoying to vs it never goes away no matter how many changes are made.
I think double speed was fine, the rest not. Maybe somewhere in between current and old double speed even...
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742947#Comment_3742947
That's exactly because there are NO comeback mechanics in this game, so 2v1 is a lost game, and there is nothing left for each survivor to do but to wait the other one to die and get the hatch.
What exactly would such a comeback mechanic look like? Increased Gen speed? There are just points where the game should be over and survivors should be able to give up, they need to go more in the direction of winning or loosing as a team, instead of rewarding selfish plays by giving people a comeback mechanic for failing to protect their teammates...
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@Junylar said:
So instead of providing survivors with some kind of come back mechanic, you want to punish those who want to survive. And then you will create a thread about "why are all soloQ survivors giving up 1st hook all of a sudden???" or "why does my killer queue take so long???
If you hide for 15 min and don't progress the game that is a bannable or at least reportable offense, I don't see a reason not to do something about such Behaviour? There is a big difference between that and just trying to survive...
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@Lost_Boy said:
They just need to remove the afk bird status to not be reset when putting an item on the ground and picking back up again. It's pointless and doesn't add anything to the game and allows survivors to hold the game hostage
As if that will do much when you can just walk around a bit to prevent that...
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@bakedpot8oesbro said:
icl if the killer tunnels or camps i will make my mission to not be found and to waste as much of their time as they did mine. i’m just petty like that.
but anyways the killer instinct suggestion is not awful but would be rewarding the killer for not being able to find anyone which kind of defeats the purpose of the game (scary hide and seek- as described by one of the devs a few years ago) and if someone is swapping lockers etc they’re not afk so there’s no reason for them to spawn crows.
swamp needs reworked sooo bad, if they do it justice who knows.
i don’t really think there’s anything they can do if im being completely honest
I guess unless you do it that long for it to become a bannable offense it is fine but if you do that then that makes you way worse than the guy tunneling and camping...
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
After having a half a hour of my time wasted by a pair of degenerates on Blackwater Swamp, I think it's about high time there be a system in place to deal with people who have no intention of progressing the match and instead just want to hide in a corner somewhere, here's what I suggest
First, improve AFK crows, make them take less time to spawn, make t hem take longer to get rid of, make them trigger noise notifications as soon as one crow spawns, and remove the ability to keep them at bay by constantly swapping lockers and repeatedly dropping/picking up a item
Second, if a killer isn't in chase for 5 minutes, trigger killer instinct on the nearest survivor every 5 seconds
I don't know if these systems would be abusable by quite frankly I don't really care, I just want something in place that makes dealing with survivors who want to waste everyone's time as much as possible outside of reporting
Also, rework Blackwater Swamp into something that doesn't resemble a flaming dumpster fire, please and thank you, I hate this realm and not being able to find survivors because of its colour pallet and the dense foliage is one of many reasons why
Just make it so people automatically get crows when they don't progress the game for a set amount of time and cannot get rid of them until they do, not only does this allow easier reports for players holding the game hostage it also takes away the responsibility of the other side to provide additional video information about that Behaviour...
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@Sarrif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743069#Comment_3743069
I think you are just not playing some killers well if that's what you think.
OK dude, show me the 1v1 matches VS a pure m1 killer against a comp level survivor that consistently last less than 2 or 3 min on a decent map... Certain mechanics just don't work against really good players and that even in a scenario where both sides are of equal skill... I never said this is something you encounter in normal matchmaking. In most matches every killer can win, but when you get really good survivors every once in a while it is really rough with some of them, and no matter what you do and how good you play you won't win this game... And I don't think that should be the case, if you play better you should be able to win and you should not be limited by the killer.
Also disregarding my point because you think I just play bad is such a petty move... Are you telling me that Freddy for example has anything in his kit that makes good players break out in a sweat? There are for sure a lot of killers that need basekit buffs, just because their kit lacks so much.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741531#Comment_3741531
maybe they can nerf and buff ghostface mark. Ghostface mark duration reduced from 60 second to 10 seconds. Survivor that are marked suffer from 15% hindered penalty and exposed.
That would be super unfun for the survivor, you can loop a killer for 60 seconds while exposed if you play it well... And with the slow you would need be at a tile immedislty, and if you are then the killer gets nothing and if not you die... That's just not it...
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@Nazzzak said:
If I'm understanding correctly, this won't work because you tend to see the stronger killers in higher MMR where they tend to go against stronger opponents. So less gen regression would negatively affect long term experienced players (ie those who probably spend the most money on the game too) while making things harder on new/low MMR survivors who will likely now have more gen regression to deal with than high MMR survivors. Not to mention, BHVR have already said that "weaker" killers perform very well in low-mid MMR. I think the easiest option is just stick with the killer/s you are comfortable with, though that wouldn't help content creators like SJ who need to play every killer for views and content.
You can say that about many content creators but Scott is not one of them xD He does not even play half the killers, because he finds them very boring and only does so when he gets a build request ^^
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@Sarrif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742661#Comment_3742661
No, there's plenty of killers that are viable at top mmr. It's just there's a handful that have a guaranteed 100% winrate at high mmr because their powers are fundamentally overpowered.
Second, basekit buffs are insanely more powerful than nerfing a handful of perks because that opens up perk slots. Would you be okay if all survivors got basekit off the record and sprint burst but made the perks a lil bit weaker?
Top mmr does not really mean much, because it is not the same as top level players... Let's just say there are only a hand full of killers that work well against really good survivors...
Well fairly obviously we need buffs to the basekit of many killers, the weaker ones... I don't really think that is comparable to those perks you mentioned though.
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@Reinami said:
I think it is bad because it creates yet another number that BHVR will horribly balance. They'll see that nurse has a low kill rate and her number will be high.
The thing that really just needs to be done is what they do with killers where addons become/feel "required" buff the basekit, and nerf the perks.
If killers had say:
- 10% base kick regression
- 200% base regression
- 30 second base corrupt
- 30 second base corrupt on hex totems
- Time to kick gens becomes 2 seconds instead of 2.7
- Nerf all the gen defense perks by about 25%-50% (depending on the perk) or just reworking ones that need it.
Things would be in a better spot, and this would be a good start to fixing stacking 4 gen defense perks, and gen defense being required for the balance of the game.
I think kicking a Gen is already 2 seconds, maybe even less...
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
The devs have already considered and dismissed the idea of having customized per-killer features like this.
They said they considered things like varying break speeds and varying gen times per killer and have already stated they will not do anything like that.
Scott should already know that, he's been here long enough.
So they cannot change their mind? They nerfed Billy a lot and then made him stronger again... I don't think such stuff is set in stone.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742009#Comment_3742009
MMR does exist. Just because they’re not transparent about it and we don’t know the details of it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. This is an illogical fallacy to claim that something doesn’t exist just so that your point can’t be refuted with it.
Doesn't exist meaning it has barely an impact on who you get matched with, sure it is an exaggeration, but it has been discussed for quite some time and should be known by now. Also even if they are not transparent about it, we know a lot because data miners gathered information, just check out the wiki and see for yourself.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742782#Comment_3742782
That’s what happens when you have a roster of mid killers. People want to win so they pick the only 2 killers capable of winning consistently.
Let's rephrase this into "People are willing to learn a hard killer as long as they feel like their work gets rewarded with a good performance". The issue is that their are so many killers that limit the person that plays them, you can be the best Legionplayer in the world, in the end you get limited by the character, and then you have other characters that don't limit you as much, allowing you to demolish people that are worse than yourself... I feel that is somewhat what is supposed to happen, if the other guy is a lot better than you he should whipe the floor with you...
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@Hannacia said:
I don't hate blights. I actually enjoy going against them, but many of them play the "comp" style.
They hard tunnel 1 person out at 4 gens and to me thats silly. S tier killer can win without playing like that especially in soloQ.
Fair, but how does the killer know he is facing solo q? He kind of needs to go all out at first until he can know.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742826#Comment_3742826
I understand your point about matchmaking, but I believe the issue is more complex than just player skill level. It's important to consider that not all characters are designed equally, nor are the roles survivor and killer. While skill is obviously important certain killers/perks may inherently have advantages that make them overpowering regardless of matchmaking. Blaming it all on matchmaking assumes that because a good player can beat other players with a killer/perk, the killer/perk is not overpowered or strong and that is not always the case. Nurse is a great example of this.
Blight can feel extra oppresive because if the team isn't uniformly skilled,he can dominate the match easily. And when it comes to the survivor role where teamwork is crucial, blights ability doesn't allow for minor mistakes without severe consequences. "bad" usually means "mistakes" and to expect a group of strangers with no communicaiton to play perfectly without making mistakes is unrealistic and unfair and should never be the case for either side. There should always be some wiggle room.
If majority of people struggle against a certain thing, I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable to believe that the thing itself is strong/difficult and may be in need of changes of some kind instead of blaming the majority for not being able to adapt/manage it. (personally i think blight is in a good spot right now aside from the bug but i mean this in more of a general way)
I don't agree with the mentality of "it's not good you're all just bad." You can use this mentality to justify anything no matter how unfair it is simply by insisiting that whatver side is struggling just sucks, even if statistics, experiences, or majoirty opinions say otherwise. That's goes for both sides. Old MFT, twins ptb, Old sabo where the hooks never came back, infinites etc. All of those were unbalanced and matchmaking didn't change that.
But Nurse is pretty much the same, beatable if the players know what to do...
But then once again, if the survivor players don't match the killer players skill, should he not win? The issue is ofc that basically one weak link is enough to fairly easily get the advantage in a match, but that once again is a major issue with matchmaking, the players should be on the same level so that there is no weak link that is much easier to get rid of. I don't think Blight has no wiggle room, his chase interaction had a lot of variety and different things you could do, it is just that unlike other killers he can punish misplays, most killers just cannot in such a way and you can mess up way more without man consequences, the question is just how much are the players be able to mess up before the killer should be able to capitalize on that...
I don't think that is an argument about the number of people, this fully depends of what is expected of them... The question should be is this too hard to achieve and not is it something people inherently do right... Sometimes counterplay is rather unintuitive and might need a few changes, but the question we need to ask in the first place is whether it is something the players are physically able to do, if so they can learn it, the question now is just about the appropriate amount of time it should take. So let's make this more practical... Let's say the killer has 4 types of skill layers and 4 types of counterplay to match those layers... Layer 1 for counterplay 1, layer 2 for counterplay 2 and so on. My point is that if the killer is capable to do skill level 1, then to match his skill you need to able to do counterplay 1. Of course people exaggerate when they say things like I only get matched with comp level blights but I don't really think there is an issue in the basic design when there is counterplay available that you just need to learn... The killer took the time to learn the killer, the survivors need to learn how to play against the killer, seems fair to me... The issue arises when one side has it way easier to learn it's part... But until now nobody brought up the point that mastering Blight is too easy but mastering his counterplay is too hard, or something similar...
My argument was if one side has the more skilled player why should this side not win? The killer character is just the tool, and it should only translate the players skill into the game, the character should neither buff nor nerf the skill of the player... And all people said above is that they get trashed by Blight players with way more hours or that were quite experienced on Blight... If you get matched with a player more experienced than yourself you should expect a loss to be more reasonable than a win... The outcome should be around 50 50 with equal skill but in such cases this just cannot be expected. If I play chess against a chess grandmaster I cannot expect the same odds to win like when I play against someone on a more equal level of skill compared to mine.
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@I_CAME said:
because there is no matchmaking in this game. Sweaty Blights aren't just isolated to some super secret top 1% matchmaking queue. They get matched with random solos too. I know because I got a 7000 hour comp Blight a few nights ago. It was about as fun as it sounds. Sweaty four man teams struggle against a sweaty blight and typically lose even in comp level gameplay. If this game had any real matchmaking that kept these players out of regular matches then it wouldn't be an issue. As it is now a sweaty Blight is basically a guaranteed loss for the overwhelming majority of teams. If you need a comp team to have a chance against something then it is overtuned. A streamsniping comp team with the most busted builds imaginable was literally the only thing that was able to stop the almost 2000 game blight winstreak. Even then they barely won.
Sooooo why exactly is it overtuned when a comp level player only gets beaten by comp level players? Is that not the result that is to be expected? Why should it be any different? Are we now blaming the character because the matchmaking is bad?
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@Oh_deer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742784#Comment_3742784
yeah, the average groups are really bad and the pool of survivors that can compete with a good blight are incredibly small. blight is simply overtuned and anyone with eyes can see that. no reason to debate it.
I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions... If a really good player is winning against really bad players that does not make the character he is playing overturned, that just puts even more focus on matchmaking being bad…
Killers should enable players to get really good results if they are good enough, that would be the best case scenario, the issue is just that matchmaking puts the comp level Blight with a bunch of bad players together in one match. Blight is not overtuned.
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@Rauy556 said:
Its always seemed very weird to me how blight is consistently regarded as one of the most hated killers by survivors. Blight is by far the hardest 'feature' to learn in the game due to how overly complex he is at base not even mentioning his map dependent interactions. As a result, it should be quite obvious that a good blight player has clearly devoted a large amount of time to learn and become good at the character, so why is it such a big problem that they are rewarded with one of the strongest killers in the game?
I personally suck at blight (PS5 things XD ) but do not have any hatred towards anyone who stomps me with him when I play survivor, instead I am quite amazed and respect the fact that they actually invested the time and had the patience to learn the hardest killer. I think it is perfectly fine that a character that is difficult to play and master is extremely strong, as why would someone want to dedicate all that effort to a killer relative in strength to a legion for example, that is very easy and quick to get good at. (Granted I do think his basekit is fine but his add-ons were 100% overtuned in the past and NEEDED nerfs, but there are still a lot of players that complain(ed) about base blight)
I also think it is quite odd that players complain about blight yet they mainly play survivor which is some of the easiest gameplay in a mainstream game, seriously the hardest thing is to learn how to loop which is a universal skill relevant to all killers, where as learning blight is not a universal skill. I think its fair to complain and voice your opinion when something is disproportionate in terms of input required and in-game results but that just seems so outrageous when it comes to a character like blight. Like if someone dedicated that much time to be able to stomp players on a regular basis, they've earned it and instead of being upset that you lost, it would be more productive to just get better and dedicate the same amount of time that those players did to become good at blight and then maybe you could go toe-to-toe with that same player.
Or at least he was the hardest "feature", with how they massacred his collision, at least that part of his kit is really simple… What you now need to learn is basically only how to properly do bump logic and flicks, while before you also needed to learn some more techs and map specific collision, what you can slide on what you can't slide on and so on… They dumbed him down quite a bit.
People in this game always expect they should be able to win the match they get thrown into, even if it is your average solo queue team against a literal comp player or some 10 k + hours Blight player who plays 80% Blight… And it would be fine to have the expectation to win a match, given that it should be balanced and both sides should be able to do so, but given how bad the matchmaking is I don't think it is fair to expect that, you will get demolished from time to time… better complain about matchmaking, because that is the real issue… On top of that there are very few killers that enable its player to outskill the other side in a way that would demolish the other side if they have no clue what they are doing, but can be played around when the other side is skilled, and once again since most players have no clue how to play the game above a certain level, that just means they get trashed when the other side is better, and then they blame it on the character instead of accepting, that they just need to get better (Which I admit won't help much if the rest of the team sucks as well, which brings us back to the matchmaking issue)… It is just a question of skill in the end.
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@Oh_deer said:
imagine a very good blight player, running meta perks, while camping, tunneling, slugging, doing everything he can to win
against an average solo queue team
it's a massacre, always is. very good blights rarely ever lose games. they'll go literally 100s of games without failure.
No offense dude, but the average solo queue team is really bad, if you have a player that is extremely skilled on his character he should massacre the average solo queue team, the issue is not the character but the matchmaking…
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742622#Comment_3742622
Based on...what? Why is it not reliable?
Aside from matchmaking being all over the place, especially depending on the time of the day?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742598#Comment_3742598
That's just it though: players are either not coordinating at a statistically relevant level to reflect that, or it's not nearly the boogeyman people make it out to be. Even if we're talking DbDLeague level 4 man SWFs, we're talking less than 10 teams in a server region in a game that sees anywhere between 40k-80k peak players on PC alone. That is such an extreme outlier.
Ok, so lets say you play a game, let's say volleyball… And while the opposing team is allowed to communicate, and you are not, in the end you still win… However do you think this was fair? Does it matter for it to be fair or not whether the result was majorly tilted by the benefit you had opportunity wise?
Because I don't think there is a good reason why we should argue about whether or not it impacts the result, there should not be a difference in opportunity when it comes to things that can be fixed by the dev…
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742469#Comment_3742469
If it were massively unbalanced, the data would reflect that. And it doesn't. At some point players have to reconcile the aggregate data with their beliefs.
It is an imbalance in opportunity for sure, not necessarily in outcome…
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742547#Comment_3742547
Lol I totally feel you. There are quite a few just fundamental features that should've existed in the game years ago and we're still missing.
Exactly, there are games from 2003 with better option menues and more stuff the player can adjust, but for some reason this game manages to be worse when it comes to those things, like how is that even possible?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742519#Comment_3742519
Well nothing is spoken in a monolith. There are always exceptions. I just think in general more blame development than the swf themselves if we're comparing.
In deed, how dare they have the standard of how options menues work from the early 2000s instead of what we have currently, where is my view distance slider bhvr???
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742474#Comment_3742474
I literally said that streaks do not mean much and that matchmaking is bad in my original comment, am I misunderstanding something?
Yeah, I get what you are saying. Limiting items to two per kind in general would probably be annoying for solos, three Medkits in one lobby aren't uncommon in my experience, so I don't see a solution.
I just wanted to further elaborate on the why of "streaks don't mean much", I agreed with you in the first sentence ^^
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741635#Comment_3741635
This is why SWFs counter Stealth Killers especially in Comms. It's a problem. I'm not sure how you would fix it though; I like SWFing and I don't want to have it go away.
The real issue is that SWFs can exploit some really unfun ######### in a way SoloQ can't. I'm talking sabo boil over builds on awful Killer maps, coordinated saves all the time, stacking offerings in ######### ways. In addition they coordinate in a way that SoloQ just cannot, it's unfair they have this advantage because SoloQ has to take what they can get.
It's lowkey kinda stupid.
And once again, why not give soloq the information swf has and then balance the game around having that level of information...
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742476#Comment_3742476
I do agree. It's human nature to get heated in the moment and take it out on the swf themselves. It does happen a lot and I can be guilty of it myself. I would say that if you took the majority of all those people and asked them later after they've calmed down they would all agree it's not really at the swf and that they're really angry at whoever allows it to continue. I think another reason it can be taken out on the swf more is because that's generally speaking the only outlet they have. The few outlets that exist that can reach the devs in any way feel generally ignored most the time and I would say players don't really feel heard most of the time. I think there's been a large disconnected between the devs and players for a long time. Even the devs and game itself for that matter. I think those are statements most players would agree with. I do however think the devs have been improving a lot lately in those areas, just still a long way to go.
I mean not just in the heat of the moment ^^ People on the forums where you typically have more time to think about what you will write do the same thing and tend to complain about the players...
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742433#Comment_3742433
Well, personally I see exploits as an oversight of play testing. It never made any sense for there to not be a hook in the RPD Library, for instance, and it is part of a playtester's job to deliberately break the game.
I don't think we need to go as far as banning people for using things like Out of Bounds exploits to "hold the game hostage", seeing as even Overwatch doesn't do that. I'm not sure if it's still possible, but if it is there are a few workarounds. One is to teleport players who are outside the playable area back into the playable area. The other is to automatically kill any survivor who is outside the playable area.
The point I was making in regards to how killers are faster than survivors is that Dead by Daylight has elements that are inherently unfair. Such is the nature of the game, after all. Killer has elements that are inherently unfair for survivors, and survivor has elements that are inherently unfair for killer. It's not a bad thing, by any means.
I don't mean ban them for doing it once... Maybe even on accident, but when this was a thing there were people who send themselves to this map just to do this... Game after game, until the killer either dcs or they die after an hour, because the game just ends... And if you do this repeatedly then maybe you should get banned. But ofc best case scenario is that such things are already countered by certain things not allowing for such things. But in all honesty, I have no faith that such mechanics will get introduced to this game, we still don't have a proper options menu, how can we expect such mechanics from the same game that "accidentally took out anti aliasing" wanted to bring it back shortly after and then took 3 years to do so...
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742413#Comment_3742413
The issue is as you said, the game is not balanced around it.
I think it's actually not hate for the SWF themselves as you are saying, it's hate for allowing an unbalanced feature to persist, so whoever would be allowing said unbalanced feature to persist in its current state. IE the game not being balanced around it. The hate isn't generally targeted at the players themselves, even though people do get a little heated in the moment.
As also mentioned, kill rates are a terrible reflection of balance for a multitude of reasons.
But then again people hate on the players far more in general than on the developers for allowing them, they should get far more criticism than they currently get for still not fixing stuff after 8 years...
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742447#Comment_3742447
Oni wasn't nerfed as far as I know…
Otzdarva released a video about the streak in Dezember at about 1600 wins, the streak ended in March at 1947, Blight's nerfs started in January so I'm pretty sure that quite a few wins happened after the addon nerfs (hug tech nerf was after the streak though).
Blight is maybe not the best example I admit that, you probably wouldn't get that high with any other Killer than Nurse but my point is less about the crazy high number and more about win streaks in general. Otzdarva mentioned a 350+ win streak on Wraith in the video in mentioned above. My point is simply "win streaks are possible as killer aswell and they are not a good indicator of balance".
I don't think limiting items to two per kind would be too restrictive, but that might just be me.
Yeah but such streaks don't mean much... Mainly because matcaking is so bad and the odds to go against a 4 men comp squad regularly are just so low... That is also why KNightlight managed to get 500 wins on perk less addon less Nurse... From the beginning he said the streak will end when a 4 men comp team snipes him, and otherwise not... And I think that is quite fair strenght wise... But it just shows how bad matchmaking is...
It is not about the amount of restrictions it puts on people but just that there are restrictions... Imagine going to the park with your buddies and you get asked if you are friends and then they have you put on a badge that says you came as friends... Not really a limitation but still annoying, it is about the general idea of having restrictions because you play with friends not about it being a big deal.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742069#Comment_3742069
So you want to balance around win streaks?
Fine, a Streamer got more than 1.900 wins on blight. Sure, most people would say that Blight is a strong Killer, but 2.000 wins would warrant a massive nerf if we balance by winstreaks, wouldn't it? Same Guy got more than 600 wins on Oni, so Oni OP?
I have two issues with win streaks:
1. The people who do streaks are usually very experienced and good players. Matchmaking sucks though, so in many cases they will be matched against Players that can't really compete anyway even if the better player does not bring strong stuff.
2. There are many things you can do to make your win more likely without looking at the skill or the killer or the voice comms like map offerings, addons and items. And sure SWF has an advantage in this regard because it is really unlikely that 4 Solos will coordinate in the pregame lobby to all bring a good toolbox with a BNP, but If a signifikant amount of SWF would play in this way you should see that in the stats (just like if most people would play like the 1900+ hours Blight his killrate should be very high). I do think limiting items to two per kind in SWF wouldn't be a bad idea and map offerings shouldn't be a thing in general, but it is not as big as a problem as people are making it out to be.
I think the 2000 wins on Blight were before Blight got nerfed 3 times...
Any limitations you bring forward for when people queue up together will always feel like getting punished for playing friends, that will just never work.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742396#Comment_3742396
Again, as I already explained, fun and balance are two different things and a more balanced game isn't necessarily a more fun game.
No, players who abuse exploits shouldn't be banned. That would kill the player base.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742400#Comment_3742400
There is plenty of recent hate for SWF, on here at least. People do think every SWF they face is a squad, though, because if they didn't there wouldn't be people demanding killers be able to opt-out of playing against SWFs.
Casual friends hanging out is not the massive advantage you think it is. Not since the HUD update. If people wanted a 'fair game', they wouldn't be playing Dead by Daylight. As an Asymm, it is inherently unfair.
If people didn't like playing against someone with an unfair advantage, there would be no survivors. Killer, by default, has an unfair advantage over the survivors in that they are faster.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742401#Comment_3742401
I would argue that anyone who exaggerates the advantage of communication and coordination has only ever played optimally.
People who play casually are not:
- Tracking the killer's location
- Coordinating their perks
- Coordinating where they go down
- Tracking everyone's location
- Using an established callout system
For the most part, they're talking about things that aren't even related to the game. So, no, SWFs are not getting a bunch of free perks. They have the potential to, but then they wouldn't be casual players anymore. Killers do not need compensation for playing against SWFs, least of all free perks.
That fully depends on your definition of the exploit... If we define as things like running outside of the map, like people did it in garden of joy to hold the game hostage, then of course they should be banned... Are we talking about going down in a place where they cannot get hooked then ofc not... I would not even say that that's an exploit to begin with.
The faster speed gets evened out by the faster window vault on survivor side, as well as the smaller hitbox and the ability to drop and Vault pallets... I would therefore not say the faster movements peed alone is unfair... Just because something is not exactly the same does not mean it is not fair.
Most likely... When you sit in a voice chat with your friends you tend to talk about everything, unless you are playing ranked and want to win... But since this game has nothing to gain out of winning, as you don't even see your MMR, I don't think it falls under the same category as ranked modes in other games.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741635#Comment_3741635
This sums up the issues with SWF really well. Yeah, being in SWF doesn't necessarily mean the survivors are great at looping and extending chases, but the communication and coordination provide and insane advantage vs. everyone playing solo. Anyone who denies this is not being honest. SWF effectively get a bunch of free perks, on top of the 4 perks that they bring into the match. And killers get no compensation of free perks or anything else on their end.
Well the devs denied that in a rather recent reddit FAQ and stated that it is not communication but coordination and willingness to take one for the team, which is not there for solos... Which is a completely useless statement, considering that communication allows for coordination and benefits altruism, because you can coordinate it easier... As you may or may not know, nobody believed their statement, as it is fairly obvious that it is nonsense and a sad excuse to not introduce new mechanics to close the gap in information and communication between solo and swf, because according to them lack of information is not the deciding factor when it comes to success :)