AlwaysInAGoodShape
AlwaysInAGoodShape
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@Paddy4583 said:
Please see example to deduce definitionDefinition of a second objective that is distinct from doing a gen:
for a secondary objective, the killer has a gate key in their back pocket. A survivor must move behind the killer for at least 1 second to grab the key, which is then held as a secondary item.
A survivor must have a key to open an exit gate.
Which means that everything opposite to this is you doing a gen. Sounds like a ridiculous definition.
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A "true" new objective should be something that does not obey to the triad
I think you miss their point;
Free_Hugs: If you can complete a gen with 5 parts and 0 M1 holding, yes, I would be content with that being an alternate objective.
Free_Hugs claimed that if the generators were completed through parts alone they'd consider it a second objective. They weren't talking about the time being split, but about the B route having an overlap of inserting charges into that generator, thus using the same progression system (Charges) for the last 10 seconds.
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@Free_Hugs said:
Sure.Off the top of my head, for a secondary objective, the killer has a gate key in their back pocket. A survivor must move behind the killer for at least 1 second to grab the key, which is then held as a secondary item.
A survivor must have a key to open an exit gate.
I meant the definition; not an example.
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Yes, if your idea is different enough such that it is distinct from "doing gens" it would be an acceptable suggestion to put forward.
Your OP was not that, thus the blowback you've been experiencing.
Then again, answer:
Turning the Gen into a flower, does this make it a second objective? -
You can basically see doing a part at doing a generator at another location. Basically you have more locations to do generators! Is that a second objective?
That is my point. In DBD everything translates into something else:
For a main objective: Holding a progress bar at x location >>> x = generator/x = crafting table/ x = whatnot >>> filling the 420/440 second bar >>> escape (win-condition; the actual objective was to escape.)Yet, you state that being able to work on generator progress in more locations is a secondary objective.
Parts are basically finishing 15 seconds of a generator that cannot be regressed.The things that makes it different/an actual new objective is that it introduces aspects of shorted time/different sounds/mandated walking for that route, etc. Which are all elements the OP also has.
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You hold m1... at a crafting table, where you basically "repair" generators. (aka the 420/440 bar)
Also, if you'd install the last part for 15 seconds instead of 5 seconds and doing the gen, then it would be the same result; same gameplay, yet you'd recognise the same gameplay to be containing a different objective 1 time, but not in the other.
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Pssst I’ve always referd to the collecting of parts as a side quest that hasn’t changed, I don’t need to change my argument.
You are the only person changing the scope to fit a narrative, I’ve remain consistant in my view and point.
Yes, your referral is wrong and you've not been consistent with anything xD
What I quote is literally the first things you've said. That was the part we were arguing about.
Your claim that by virtue of it being a side-objective it is not necessary, and rejecting the idea that in any system where there are multiple routes to complete anything, neither route is mandatory.You've only been trying to distance yourself from your own claims since in the 1000 gen example, you admitted that you'd never touch a flat gen xD
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@Free_Hugs said:
But you can but complete the gens through flowers alone.If you collect 5 flowers for a gen, is it completed? Does it light up?
If it does not then it is deceptive to say that parts complete gens.
No, parts and flowers. That's all you need. Now would you consider this to be a secondary objective?
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No matter what you argue, it will be impossible to convince anyone you've been discussing with that what you suggested is a "secondary objective" because "doing a gen" is still what you are doing and a "secondary objective" is something different.
Imagine it very simply: The generator gets transformed into a flower, meaning you are no longer doing a gen. All you're doing is a progress bar similar to healing, doing gens, sabotaging, etc.
Now would you call this doing a second objective then, since by your quoted reason it would be?
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Have you asked Paddy why they consider your idea a "side quest" instead of a secondary objective?
You're making a mistake here; when people talk about doing the main objective, they mean doing that which LEADS UP TO the main objective. It's kind of a collective word play; the main objective of course always is escaping (and to the degree the pip system/BP).
Paddy claimed that people wouldn't use the route since it's inherently a side-quest.
I showed them that it wasn't because it's purely defined by meta.No matter what you argue, it will be impossible to convince anyone you've been discussing with that what you suggested is a "secondary objective" because "doing a gen" is still what you are doing and a "secondary objective" is something different.
If I changed that gen to a flower, would it be doing a secondary objective then, if your parameter is A as we discussed a moment back?
Ergo, since your suggestion is not a secondary objective as advertised in the thread title, Paddy refers to it as a side quest, in lue of alternatives that came to their mind.
This has nothing to do with preferring. If you can complete the game through parts and flowers alone, then either doing flat generators are also "side-quests" or neither of the 2 are.
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You: Amazing idea definitely see everyone doing this optional side quest.
You: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory it’s.......
Me: I wouldn't call it an optional side quest. It's 1 of the 2 main routes through which you can complete your objective. With the current variables typically slower than choosing route A but with more late-game security.
If your mission was to fill a glass with liquid and you could choose to fill it with either cola or orange juice, I wouldn't call filling the glass with cola you doing an optional side-quest to filling the glass. It'd be doing the main objective.
You:The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory Its???**
You dropped the ball there.
The flat generators weren't necessary when you could do the stick with beefs.
In a multi-route through which you can complete the main objective, neither route is mandatory. Only the mix or sole use of 1 of the, in the pool of routes is mandatory.You tried to weasel out after I replaced the word, since you couldn't answer it. Then you tried to say that you "said different things", while everything you typed is saved xD
This was your argument:
You: Amazing idea definitely see everyone doing this optional side quest.
"Nobody would be doing it since it's a side-quest."
Then I showed you how it's a main quest with the 1000 second gen example, showing there are 2 routes and everything is determined by META.No matter how much you try to distance yourself from your own claims, it's saved. Everyone can read the blatantly false claims. xD
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@Free_Hugs said:
That is the point, though. It is not two different things, even in your alternate version of the game.Because in the end, you're still doing the same thing, "doing a gen" that we agreed upon. Standing beside a generator, holding M1, watching a progress bar.
Your idea is not different enough. That is what everyone has been trying get through to you for the past 8 pages.
Your idea isn't different enough to not just be "doing a gen" still.
Well, hugs. I see your point, but this is not what me and paddy were arguing about.
We were arguing whether doing parts was a "side-objective" or not, and I've been trying to explain him/her that in any system through which there are 2 ways to complete the mian objective (to escape) neither of the 2 (or 3/4/5) are mandatory, but all are main objectives as through every route you can complete the main objective.
What is mandatory is that you have to pick from those 2(or/3/4/5) options to finish your main goal, which makes it a main objective.It is that basic fact that we've been arguing about.
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Since you clearly need extra explanation. Chances are that you still don't know what a flat gen is.
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No Paddy. The parameter for distinguishing a main objective and a side-objective is not the cosmetics of an object.
If your point is that you still have to do a progress bar at an adjusted model of a generator for 10 seconds, no, that is not what makes it a side-objective, which means your "point" isn't even related to your claim.
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Can this mutually understood phrasing of "doing a gen" be accepted for reference moving forward, please, AlwaysInAGoodShape?
be accepted? This has never not been accepted by anyone. If this was what you wanted to get accepted then you've been arguing against non-existing people.
What I've been arguing about is that in the not vanilla version of the game (the OP) doing a generator means 2 different things (Part generators and Flat generators);
New (hypothetical) OP
When installing the first part to a generator, it transforms into a flower. The time it takes to finish a flower overlaps that of the OP with x parts as variable)My argument is that in the above mentioned hypothetical case, you'd not be doing generators, neither would you be doing anything different than mentioned in the OP.
See how you're BOTH "not doing generators" while ALSO doing the exact same as in the OP? Strange isn't it.Do you notice how you can do the flowers and escape without ever finishing a generator? Meaning that generators are optional? That means that doing generators is a "side-quest". Weird isn't it?
(now replace flowers with Part-generators and replace generators with Flat generators)
(and if you understood that example, notice how you committing to that answer makes you directly state that: The difference between a side-quest and a main quest is DECIDED by the COSMETICS of an object) -
@Free_Hugs said:
AlwaysInAGoodShapeIn your OP, did you state that the minimum time needed to repair a generator with 5 parts on it was 10 seconds?
Correct. A generator; not a flat generator.
In this case a Part-Generator (or a stick with beef if you will) -
@Free-Hugs
>No. Listen. Don't try to evade the argument.
No argument is being evaded. Doing Part-Generators is simply just as much of a side-quest as doing flat generators are as demonstrated.
>I am telling you why, in your OP aaand for several pages after, people were telling you they were still just "doing gens" because "doing gens" is pressing M1 next to a generator while a progress bar fills up, which your suggestion still did.
Yes, they are doing gens, genius? But doing gens no longer means 1 thing. Doing Gens no longer means that you have to sit still doing a generator. Doing a generator a certain way is literally impossible if you don't move. You cannot complete a part-generator without moving.
The parameter that makes x "the same" is not a word under which is it categorised, but the difference in EXPERIENCE that it creates.
Let's call doing Flat generators doing gens.
Let's call doing Part-generators doing gens.
Let's call going to a swimming pool doing gens.
Let's call breathing doing gens.
Let's call playing DBD doing gens.
Let's call eating doing gens.
See how we can categorise a million things under 1 name, depending on how we call it? If you find doing a FLAT generator boring, that doesn't mean that you find breathing boring, because even though you can categorise them under 1 term doesn't make them the same thing.
Doing a Flat gen =/= doing a Part gen =/= breathing. The parameter of the "boring objective" isn't that someone is "doing a generator"; it is someone doing a FLAT GENERATOR. (Aka a prolonged progression bar, whether is it s generator, or whether it's healing, or whether it's x that takes too long.)
Now, in DBD you are either doing 3 things when there's no killer:
You are walking/searching, you are either doing a progress bar at a certain location (from anywhere to 0 seconds to infinite) or you're picking stuff up.
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So you mainly have 2 parameters:
A: Doing something with a different name (/appearance) makes doing an objective different.
B: The experience and required inputs is what makes doing an objective different.
If your parameter for a "different objective" is A, then this would be a "new objective":
Instead of having to do 5 gens, there are only 4 Generators and 4 Cankers. Completing a generator or a Canker takes 80 seconds, cause skill-checks and can be regressed after being kicked.
To me, this is doing "the same thing", because my parameter is B. It doesn't create a new experience and required input. You are doing exactly the same thing. To you this is revolutionary, because after all, Cankers are not "doing generators"!
Since my parameter is B, doing a different objective means that they create a different experience through different inputs. This means that "doing a generator" doesn't have to be the same. Instead, doing a Canker and a Flat Generator are the same. Where as a Flat Generator and a Part-Generator are distinct from one another.
(That is what the wooden stick example illustrates. It simply changes up words.)
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Now, there is a distinction between the main objective and a side-quest; a side-quest is of NO contribution to the main objective, which is both wrong for doing flat gens and doing part gens.
It is wrong for doing part gens since doing and adding a part is basically progressing an unregressable 15 seconds from the total timer of 420/440 seconds.
Through Parted Generators (or call them sticks if you will), you can complete the entire game, without ever touching a Flat Partless vanilla generator, where as in the main game, you can only do Flat Gens.
(The only thing that would make doing the exact same thing doing something different, is when it has a different purpose, like the difference between healing and doing a flat gen, which are both doing a progress bar. We are talking about main objectives here, so their purpose is mainly the same.)
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@Free_Hugs
Try the stick example. You no longer have to do a gen; you have to do a stick.
How is doing the stick a sidequest if you don't have to do a gen either? Doesn't that make doing a gen a sidequest also? -
It's below 30% on all platforms at rank 20 and below 45% on all platforms in rank 1.
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I don't understand how so many people can disagree with the OP.
It's very clear that NOED is disproportionally powered in comparison to other killer perks.
Cleansing the dull totems adds close to a whole generator: Both cleansing time and time searching for it. (the killer might not even have the perk. It's a win for the killer anyways.)Even if you believe that survivors are stronger, in-faction perk-balance shouldn't be destroyed by people's desire to prostitute a select few perks to "fix" what they believe to be a faction-balance issue.
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For PS4 it's exactly 40%.
The other 2 are in between 40-45% I think.At lower ranks, the win-rate drops to almost 25% and that is terrify if you actually consider that at this point everybody is escaping through the hatch and not the exit gates.
The number of people escaping through gates is a lot lower.
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Definitely caves
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@The_Crusader said:
What's the escape rate around 40%? It's less than half.But apparantly survivors need more objectives to do.
God forbid the problem lies with the person playing killer rather than the objective time.
At higher ranks its at 40% for survivors. Only at very high level survivors against very high level killers is the problem that killers (actually!) don't have enough time.
Which is why solutions that simply try to make the game longer would all hurt the game for the majority.
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Neither. I was C where in addition to the gens and gate there is a 3rd (or 4th or 5th or whatever) requirement to escaping and that the whole process takes a total of greater than 420 seconds
So simply, you want to add another gen. Because you believe the games should take longer.
The problem is, you find generators boring, so you want to transform let's say 2 of those gens into (idk) something equivalent in time. (That action would most likely translate into something of the trinity, which may very closely resemble doing a gen/prolongued progress bar.
On top of that, making the game flat out longer has also made the game very frustrating for a majority of the players in lower ranks, who now have a win-rate that drops even below 30% which is where it's currently is.You wouldn't have more choice. Every game you would still have to do the exact same.
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@Nickenzie said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:https://xboxclips.com/NMCKE/4468d623-7407-4989-a65d-12354dded93b
I don't know what perk that Meg has, but I want one.
Decisive DC: (Very Rare Meg Perk)
Whenever you're about to get attacked by the killer, use the active ability button at the exact moment you take damage to crash the game and award you with 32k bloodpoints.xD That caught me off-guard
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I hinted at this in my OP: That there's a trinity of options. Basically in DBD you're doing the same thing under many different names:
"healing", "doing generators", "Sabotaging". You are doing the EXACT same thing. The only difference is what it accomplishes + the location.
Therefore, to me it was important that we didn't simply name the same experience as something else; instead we'd CHANGE the experience.So what would you prefer?
A: Instead of doing 5 Gens; you need to do 3 Gens and 2 cankers? (Cankers take 80 seconds to complete and give skillchecks)
B: or would you want to do what the op suggests meaning you do the "same thing"; doing generators, but you'd actually be doing different things. -
the two concepts are different, and to be clear I stated an alternative to doing gens I would agree, I wasn’t >agreeing to same game play and meat on sticks.
It's the exact same game-play; it's the exact same strategies.
The only thing that's different is the word xD (and it was already different without the analogy: Part-Generators & Flat Generators >>> Sticks with steaks & Generators) -
What the example shows it what bothers people is going through a monotonous experience, not by going through a monotonous term/word.
You play DBD a lot. Every time you play DBD it's DBD and not a different game, but the experience that DBD provides is somewhat different every time.
The problem with gens is that you have to sit still for 80 seconds; thus the second route offers you TRUE choice, which is even better than just variation.
If we let go of the stick analogy, we are indeed "doing a gen" in the end, but "doing this gen" is no longer the same experience.
It's as much as a different experience as that of the stick (whether there is actually beef or not) -
https://xboxclips.com/NMCKE/4468d623-7407-4989-a65d-12354dded93b
I don't know what perk that Meg has, but I want one.
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@Paddy4583 said:
And if your idea was that there was an alternative to doing gens, I’d totally get where your coming from and agree that it’s different from doing a gen and not just a different way of doing a gen, alas this was not your OP idea at all #sadfaceemojiIn the example, you're literally sitting at a stick right next to the generator. There's no gameplay difference xD
It's just deceptive wording.So all we had to do was change the name of a Part-Generator to a Stick with beef instead of a Part-Gen and all was solved. No more side-objectives.
Well that was easy (:
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We can choose to do the progress at the generator location and we can progress it through parts from a distance, so we have 2 approaches, making each other an alternative route to another, thus A.
B is wrong for obvious reasons.
C is not doing the main route for either routes. But both are doing the main objective, thus also wrong.
D if at least any of A/B/C is wrong then D is wrong. -
I think the game can know whether it has crashed or not.
If for example after every match it returns a certain function but is unable to do so, then it knows something went wrong. (Similar to how unreal engine knows it crashed when it gives you a crash log)
It's possible that such a thing also successfully works when you unplug the power. But if you have problems with electricity, then that might mean no DBD when it turns back on.:P -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:I kinda already played that game by replacing parts with totem.
You said:
What have I proven here? Absolutely nothing, since the generators are still required and the totem still isn't
With sticks, the generators are no longer required.
Ok I literally swapped out every instance of part gen with "stick with beef" and it doesn't change my argument a bit
You can't see how you wouldn't need to do a generator if there were literally sticks?
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I kinda already played that game by replacing parts with totem.
You said:
What have I proven here? Absolutely nothing, since the generators are still required and the totem still isn't
With sticks, the generators are no longer required.
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Now replace the word part-generator with the word sticks with beef.
See how nothing inherently changed gameplay wise?
See how the factor of you doing "the same thing" no longe equals doing a generator? since generators can be done through different ways?That is my point. It's only semantics;
If you instead add the parts to a stick right to the gen nothing changes gameplay wise. Are we suddenly "doing different things" now?No, because doing a gen is no longer "doing the same thing". The routes are a completely different experience and both are doing the main objective;
You can open the gates with sticks (part-gens) or do them with flat gens, without ever having to do them with the other.
Semantics. Semantics; semantics.
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@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Paddy4583 said:
Mc_Harty said:
This entire discussion is a brick wall. Just let it die already.
I enjoy watching how ludicrous it becomes, because he hates being criticised, it’s my new lobby hobby
Criticising my idea? You've barely criticised it. I've mainly been correcting you applying fallacious logic, which is wrong whether my idea existed or not xD
Oh don’t use big words you clearly can’t use in context. Double fallacy argument? Good one.
Nope. We haven't been discussing my post at all.
Instead we've been discussing this:In rune-scape your objective is to train magic all day. There are multiple ways of getting Xp, which gives you multiple routes through which you complete a goal.
Route 1: getting the basic want that doesn't force you to get runes.
Route 2: Getting runes to cast special spells.All you've been doing is inflating the main objective (Training magic) with Route 1 of training magic.
I've been pointing out that in any system in which there are multiple routes to achieve your main objective, NONE are mandatory, but neither are you side-questing to achieve your main goal;If you use your want and only stand still; You're doing your main objective.
If you get runes and cast special spells: You're doing your main objective.
Which is both training magic, and training magic can be achieved both through 1 route alone AND a mix between the 2.I've been pointing out why your logic if calling training magic through runes is wrong.
But we have barely discussed anything about the inherent content of route 1 or 2 -
@Paddy4583 said:
Like I’ve said already that’s not the point, neither was it my argument.I'm applying your logic. You're back peddling.
The basis on what you called something a side-quest is that it wasn't MANDATORY.
Doing generators isn't mandatory when you can do sticks, thus doing generators is doing side-quests.That's your logic not mine.
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@Paddy4583 said:
Mc_Harty said:This entire discussion is a brick wall. Just let it die already.
I enjoy watching how ludicrous it becomes, because he hates being criticised, it’s my new lobby hobby
Criticising my idea? You've barely criticised it. I've mainly been correcting you applying fallacious logic, which is wrong whether my idea existed or not xD
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@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Again not talking anout the gens, but the collecting and installing of parts....
the actual argument I had, that you keep avoiding.
Yes, what about collecting parts? Collecting parts and finishing sticks is the main quest is it not? After all, you don't have to do any generators in order to escape. Doing sticks with parts is all you need.
Nope it not.
You cannot escape with purely parts, sticks and opening the exit gates?
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@Mc_Harty said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Paddy's "insight" isn't particularly valuable. The rest of the discussion is however.All this discussion isn't valuable when it's the devs that decide what goes on in their game.
So the forums aren't valuable?
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@Mc_Harty said:
This entire discussion is a brick wall. Just let it die already.Paddy's "insight" isn't particularly valuable. The rest of the discussion is however.
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Again not talking anout the gens, but the collecting and installing of parts....
the actual argument I had, that you keep avoiding.Yes, what about collecting parts? Collecting parts and finishing sticks is the main quest is it not? After all, you don't have to do any generators in order to escape. Doing sticks with parts is all you need.
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@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:I’ll help you see it my way by changing your definitions and the original outlined proposal and idea, while completely avoiding your actual argument.
My argument is not defeated. We only changed the word: "Part-Generator" to "Stick with beef" and flat generator to (only 1 type of) generator to make it simpler for you to understand, while keeping the gameplay the exact same.
Now, paddy? Do you see how doing generators is a side-quest when you can just do sticks? (:
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with parts though a gen should never take more then 60-80 seconds to complete (this includes, building and installing time, not the time between benches and the actual gen as well as the time after all parts are installed.) but without atleast a single part there should be a efficiency penalty for toolboxes and time taken. i guess thats where a brand new part could come into play? @AlwaysInAGoodShape that a bnp toolbox would let you skip making one part (effectively the 10-20s of making one, and the transportation time)
Interesting. So indeed, there are a LOT more options on the table, especially when it comes to toolboxes. And with more freedom in exploring (hefty) generator regression there must be a way to turn even the toolbox gen-rushes into something that the killer will be at fault for.
BNP, (correct me if I'm wrong) adds 25%? If with my numbers from the OP you'd add 1 part instead, then that'd actually be very funcationl!
Normally it's "a chance" of adding 25% (skillchecks are not up to change in high level play) but in what you suggest it would be 15/80*100 = 18.75%.
Conceptually it also does make a lot of sense. Why not xD -
From:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/319894/p1First time you DC you get a pass, maybe your internet played up.
Second time it should be a 15 minute wait before you can get back into a lobby.
Third time and it's an hour wait to get into a lobby.
Fourth time a 3 hour wait.
Fifth time 24 hour ban.
Any following disconnections then result in another 24 hour ban.(resets after a day without disconnecting/disconnection penalty)
I think that would work.
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Iol okay then, so no one needs to do gens to get out of the map, yeah you definitely know what your talking about, you fail
Inflating doing generators (Route A & B ) with doing flat generators (Route A)-counter: 1
Doing a gen is mandatory!
Irrispective wether a part is installed or not.
opting to collect parts before doing so is not!Inflating doing generators (Route A & B ) with doing flat generators (Route A)-counter: 2.
I'll help you out with this example:
Let's slightly change the OP: Instead of installing the Parts on a generator, you install it on a wooden stick with the text: "I like beef" on it, directly next to a generator.You work on a wooden stick just like a generator, but it needs at least 1 part installed. After that, it takes just as long as a generator and also regresses when the gen right next to it is kicked.
If you complete the stick, you have 1 less "point" to do (generators and sticks give you 1 point. You need 5) and the generator right next to the stick becomes disabled.Now do you see how you can completely finish the game through working on sticks without the need to finish even a single flat gen? x)
And by that; generators are sidequests and the example is exactly the same gameplay as the main post xD -
The maximum speed at which you should be able to do a gen should be around 10 seconds in the end (at 1 survivor alive minimally), as without such conditions the game might find itself in states in which it might become playable.
I'd change crafting time to a number and make it decrease per survivor death.My argument is that their ability to stay hidden (and then come back to the same gen) simultaneously, while being slower, guarantees the repair, no questions asked. So yeah, I'm more interested in seeing how you would change the process.
I have separate posts in which I talked about the "state of stealth", which is the state in which all remaining players are hidden for a certain duration, but that's a topic on its own. (And yes, the state of stealth is an issue, but currently and in the future if not addressed).
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And no I’m clearly not saying that, I’ve made it very clear that I believe your version to be that same game with an optional side quest of locating parts before doing a gen.
You state that if something isn't mandatory, then it isn't doing the main quest.
Doing flat gens isn't mandatory in my version.
= doing flat gens is side-question by your definition, since you can complete the match without it. -
So doing a flat gen is a side-quest in my version of the game. That is what you state;
You claim that there are no main quests/objectives in my version, because you simply are blind to the effects of having multiple routes through which you can complete the main objective.Skyrim: Side-quest: Marrying someone:
Skyrim: Main Quest: Finishing Alduin as a mage
Skyrim: Main Quest: Finishing Alduin as a warriorSee how neither playing the warrior or the mage was mandatory, yet it being you completing the main quest? (:
Playing the mage is not a side-quest. It doesn't matter whether the mage is stronger than the warrior or the other way around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEgeGS9oVhk&t=1s