AlwaysInAGoodShape
AlwaysInAGoodShape
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I just clicked the link and it described it just as I would:
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
strange that
Are you stating that my version of the game doesn't have ANY main objectives at all, since flat gens are also not mandatory?
Also, I doubt that you pressed the link:
A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game.It's really hard to be a side-quest yet simultaneously being the route through which you complete the game xD
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Finally someone mentioned it.
Stealth! is indeed the strength of the part system.Even though it is already possible for a coordinated SWF to finish a generator without being noticed, many are too lazy to try.
This is why Parts are not as fast as doing flat generators; because it grants that killer extra time to sniff people out.
If the killer doesn't manage to find someone, then the survivors made the right choice for the early game.
If the killer hears audio from crafting and finds someone in the basement, then that sucks, especially since you don't keep crafting progress when cancelled and now your teammates have committed themselves to a less optimal strategy if their strategy was to rush things.There are only 3 places where such survivors could be if they weren't doing gens. You'd find them in 3 general area's and if they'd move fast then you'd see scratchmarks.
Their ability to stay hidden simultaneously comes at the cost of slower progression.
If after testing, it is believed that parts are indeed to strong during the early game, then there are 2 possible ways to change that:
1 is to change the ratio between parts
2 is to change the functionality of parts/the duration of crafting them upon survivor death."x upon survivor death" is a very useful way to compensate for otherwise too strong/too weak aspects of anything in this game.
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https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sidequest
"A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game." -
@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
If installing parts take even slightly longer than doing the gens (if the killer is distracted) then it shouldn't be an issue, because the generator isn't going "instantly".
The idea of it going instantly is only relevant to the degree a killer can regress a generator. A distracted killer can't.Installing a part: 5 seconds (which one can do at any time and can't be regressed)
Repairing a gen alone with 5/5 parts: 10 seconds.
3 people on the same gen: ≈ 4 seconds.That is insta-repairing, because it doesn't matter if one needs 50 cumulative seconds to produce 5 parts (not considering multi-tasking in this, which could reduce this time to 20 seconds), the only thing that matters is that 3 people need to be near a generator for merely 4 seconds.
This is the "insta" repairing I'm referring to.
I know. But it's wrong to assume a gen with 5 parts against a part-less generator. What were the survivors doing in scenario B while the other survivors in scenario A were getting the parts? The survivors in scenario B already finished the generator, before the survivors in Scenario A got to do their "insta-gen".
What the part system simply does is, it makes the total time of completing generators longer, but it makes generators harder to defend.
If generators aren't defended and the killer is distracted, then there's no need to do the generators with parts. It simply puts you behind; otherwise if the killer keeps regressing your generators... then perhaps they should've been getting parts!Killer not defending Gens?; Do flat gens; (Unless your team is bad; since parts are better for the late-game)
Killer defending Gens?; Do parts;The nuance comes from how many parts you think you'll need.
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@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape I really have no more energy to entertain this meta-discussion about what is and what is not a side objective, I think it's a waste of both our times, or at least it is of mine, sorry
.That being said, I would appreciate your opinion on this post:
@Edys said:
[..CUT..]
In fact I think you can easily see what would happen in a swf game: once a couple of gens are done, one player can distract the killer by either chasing or even doing generators, while the other 3 build parts and insta-repair every generator, like an invasion of locusts. You have to imagine something stronger than 3 brand new parts for the entirety of the game, that's really too much.>
If installing parts take even slightly longer than doing the gens flat (if the killer is distracted) then it shouldn't be an issue, because the generator isn't going "instantly".
The idea of it going instantly is only relevant to the degree a killer can regress a generator. A distracted killer can't.(Also, collecting parts should always last longer than doing flat gens, because if their completion time is EVEN, then doing parts is always superior as it has more benefits, through ratio's between parts could change.)
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What your not seeing, is to get out someone needs to do gens, but no one would need to collect parts ever, it would be purely optional.
So you acknowledge the Part route as distinct from the vanilla route, thus you acknowledge doing flat gens being distinct from doing Part-gens.
Now you still call doing part gens optional and therefore a side-quest. Do you still not notice how doing flat gens also has become an optional "side-quest?"
META is what matters. The idea of side-questing is wrong.
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Just a question; What do you mean by mandatory and what do you mean by "main objective?"
The main objective is completing this bar: 400 seconds (+20 sec gate-time x2) = 420 minimally/440 maximally.
When you do a flat gen, you are simply progressing +80 at a certain location.
When you do are creating parts and work on a gen you are also doing +80 but at different locations, but that 80+ gets awarded under a certain condition.Both progress the main objective bar. (Which is not the same as a collective generator bar; this bar is literally everything that you require for an escape)
Now you understand the 420 main objective bar, why does sitting at a certain location longer make adding to that bar more "main" then the other? Isn't everything that adds to this 420/440 bar the main objective and everything that doesn't isn't?
Which is why sabotaging for example isn't the main objective but both a Part-gen and flat gen are
What does;does not require anything aside from the generator.
Is trying to score a goal in a football match not doing the main objective, simply because they aren't doing generators? If you told a footballer that, they would tell you that you're crazy; what is inherent about scoring goals and winning the match?
The same goes for DBD; Escaping is the goal. Nothing else is inherent to it. If you replace generators with socks, then people completing socks would still be doing the main objective, whether they do generators or not.
Sitting at a certain location for longer has no special importance on making something more "main" then something else.
The only thing that makes it main is that through SUCH THING ALONE you can complete your end-goal.But I'm gonna be honest, I simply don't care if one route is main, side or whatever. I can agree to call everything as you wish, it really doesn't matter for the sake of the discussion, that is how your proposal is (or is not) flawed.
Correct. a discussion about balance is a separate topic and involves what people believe to be the desired numbers. (Or whether something is systemically flawed, like the legion).
But the claim that in a game where you can complete the bar through 2 different methods purely, to call 1 of the 2 a side-quest has very wrong implications, suggesting that something structurally makes it not part of completing the main objective and can therefore inherently not serve as an alternative experience, similar to how sabotaging and such alternatives are ignored for the sakes of them not being main objectives.
To understand that in a multi-route main objective system both routes render the other not purely mandatory, but collectively form the pool of what IS mandatory, is crucial to understand, as that explains that it is indeed the relation ship between the 2 (/3/4/etc.) that decide on whether it will be used a lot or not, and as demonstrated by the example, the relationship between the 2 can render both sides non-existent.
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Paddy, so in the example it is a "side-quest" that you would ALWAYS do? Doesn't really sound like side-questing. Nobody would be doing flat gens. (Might sound like side-questing but still isn't).
And I’ve also not changed my stance from my original comment of people not doing this side quest, which is clearly explained in the above!
That is a META statement more than it is a side-quest statement. In my example you always picked the parts, thus doing flat gens is side-questing. (your logic)
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Again you state that a flat generator is the main route, yet in my example you would never pick it. What makes it "main" if it can be completely avoided and never used?
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@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:So did you collect the parts or did you do a 1000 second gen?
Neither because it’s hypothetical, and 1000 second gen wasn’t your intital proposal.
You really shouldn’t change your proposal halfway through in order to force your idea as the better alternative, it’s deceptional.Adding a different way to do the same thing isn’t a secondary objective, As many people have already stated, no one would really bother because it’s unnecessary and as most people have already said, increasing gen times isn’t something people want, you know this which is why in your OP you never suggested the current gen time would be increased.
you stated you could decrease gen time by finding/making parts at designated areas.
Add that time to the time reduced doing the gen with parts and you haven’t gained anything, and like many have said this wouldn’t work of benefit solo players.
if secondary objectives are added it can’t be around the gens, and needs to be end game or early game, not just another way to do what we already have to.
Ah, but you're discussing which main route is META now. Not that either one of them is side-questing.
If you want to debate which one is META then I'm all in for that (:
I've been waiting for you to realise that the 2 are different. -
@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape what they are stating is that to do a flat generator or a part generator, is still doing a generator. If you don't believe me, ask themWhat does this have to do with side-questing again? Nobody contests this claim.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
i think what paddy means is for an actual second objective besides working on gens in any capacity. such as perhaps a pc that you need to find access codes for in lerys/the game in order to escape etcI understand that.
But their claim is that when having 2 routes through which you can complete the main objective, 1 could be called a "side-quest", which is a false claim.
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@Edys said:
I'm not rejecting your definition, at all, I'm just pointing out that they were not using it when talking about "...still doing generators..."
There are 3 definitions right now:- generator: the metal machine that needs to be fixed in order to escape
- flat generator: a generator without any add-on installed on it
- part generator: a generator with parts installed on it
They are talking about generators.
If you still disagree... I honestly can't explain this better
Your definitions are correct.
But they are not talking about generators. Because doing generators is not 1 thing, as you've clearly pointed out yourself.
They are talking about flat generators.
In the vanilla game there's no need to distinguish between the 2 since doing a generator is practically the same since there are no other options.They are saying that doing flat generators is mandatory. Not that doing a generator is mandatory;
to do a generator (flat, part, whatever): required → main
You literally state here that doing the parts IS NOT a side-quest!
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@Edys said:
language is consensus - when WE say "generators", we are talking about both generators with or without parts.how you do them is a different story.
Literally all I'm doing is using 2 words to distinct between the 2 ways someone does generators and you reject it xD
How you do them is INDEED the story!;Doing generators = Doing Flat generators + doing Part-Generators
when WE say "generators", we are talking about both generators with or without parts.
Nobody disagrees with that xD
Which is why I say FLAT generators when I say that doing so is now optional, but you called it mandatory. -
@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape - no one is talking about your definition of flat generators, trust me. Everyone is talking about simply generators: they are the main objective. how you do them is a different story.Yes, the name for doing them with parts is a Part-Generator. Doing it the vanilla way is a flat generator. That is literally what we are talking about.
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So did you collect the parts or did you do a 1000 second gen?
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@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape , I fully understand what you are saying, are you sure you are reading me correctly, though?We're saying exactly the same thing, so why don't you understand @Paddy4583 / @NuclearBurrito2 point? They are simply saying that at the end of the day you are still doing generators, if you call them flat or part or rainbow or unicorn, they still are generators.
Don't argue for the sake of arguing come on
That's not what I'm doing. So I assume you collected parts in my examples right?
Why did you not do the flat gens? You literally stated that that was mandatory?to do a generator (flat, part, whatever): required → main
What I've been pointing out is that everything is determined by the numbers and neither routes are mandatory, neither are they side-quests. They are simply 2 interrelated ways through which you can complete the main objective, with different pro's and cons.
The only basis on which one route gets chosen over the other is to what degree that is stronger under said conditions, which may vary throughout the match.
Which is why you just saw what you believed to be a mandatory route becoming a "side-quest".
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Maybe applying the example will make you understand that in a multi route, neither routes are mandatory;
Generators take 1000 seconds to repair.
You need to repair 5.
You can collect parts which translate to removing 199 seconds off of that generator, meaning that if you have 5, you only have to do 5 seconds of generator repair time.Now you can choose. Will you sit on the generator for 1000 seconds or will you collect 5 parts before finishing that generator?
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@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape, a main objective is something that needs to be done. A side objective is something that doesn't need to be done.
to do a generator (flat, part, whatever): required → main
to search for parts → not required → side
to not install parts → not required → side@Paddy4583 is talking about the first case, you are not considering it because... I don't know why.
You don't have to sit on a flat generator (vanilla way).
Doing a generator =/= doing a flat generator.
If you add parts to a generator and finish it you are still doing a generator (the main objective) but you are no longer playing the vanilla route of finishing flat generators.Did you understand my example?
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Again we weren’t talking about your version stop changing the topic in order to dig yourself out of a hole.
No we were talking about the version with my Part system.
Why the hell would we be talking about the base game and how you have to do gens in the base-game? There is literally one route there xD
You're creating imaginary opponents. No one says you don't have to do gens in the base-game.
What is said is that in my version you no longer have to do flat gens. -
You definition of a flat generator is flawed. Right now if I do a generator with a toolbox then that generator will take less than 80 seconds, if the killer kicks the generator then it will take more than 80 seconds ect ect ect
But you do still understand what a flat gen is right, nonetheless? I assume you even correctly understood that using a repair box still is doing a flat gen, where as Paddy failed to understand anything about it.
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@NuclearBurrito2 said:
More importantly I think this suggestion misses the point of why additional required objectives are wanted.The whole reason why it would help is because we want to slow the game down, but we don't want to increase generator times further, the solution is to give things besides generators that need to be done. However if they DON'T need to be done then either you still have to increase generator time or you haven't slowed down the game at all
It doesn't miss any point. Is sets in place the structure to nerf separate routes and provides a more functional system for in the late-game, that no longer requires us to have a replacement of the game the moment it starts malfunctioning (called the hatch).
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So you understand that there are separate routes (in this case 2) but there could be infinite. Now depending on the strength of a route, people would start to use it more often or less often, all based on the numbers.
Now imagine this:
Generators take 1000 seconds to repair; you need to repair 5.
Adding a part gives you a multiplier that equals removing 199 seconds from that generator (up to 995 = a 5 second generator).See how route B is superior and how doing flat gens is (basically gamethrowingly) bad?
Route A is still not a side-quest. It's just a slow way of doing the main objective.What is a stronger route is determined by the numbers.
What is a side-quest is determined by what it contributes to. Route A in this example is still doing the main objective and neither routes are mandatory. -
1: Myers
2: Hag
3: The Pig
4: Freddy (with the right add-ons)
5: The Wraith (with the right add-ons) -
Your idea is a side quest as we already discussed, because it doesn’t need to be done in order to complete the main objective, you then attempted to be clever and reduce the current game to a singular person not doing the objective and stilll being able to open the gates.
which we both know is a diversion because SOMEONE has to do it if people want to escape.
So you call doing flat generators in my version of the game also side-questing then, since you don't have to do it, which is the basis on why they will no longer bother? 😂
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@Paddy4583 said:
We weren’t talking about your idea, we were talking about the actual game as it is... COHEARANCE!!!!!No. You don't know what you are talking about;
Amazing idea definitely see everyone doing this optional side quest.
Yes please, what do you have in mind?
Id imagine it being described something like this:The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory it’s.......
Haha 😂
Your not very good with analogy’s either it seems.The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory..... and if it’s not mandatory Its???
You try to paint this as a "side-quest", while not understanding that Route A as a result also became a "side-quest" as a result of the new route B, which is the basis on which you tried to delegitimise it.
It's a very bad idea trying to say that "we weren't talking about that!" in a place where everything you type has been saved 😂
We can see what we were talking about, and you don't know what you are talking about yourself!
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Iol okay then, so no one needs to do gens to get out of the map, yeah you definitely know what your talking about, you fail
Inflating doing generators (Route A & B ) with doing flat generators (Route A)-counter: 1
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It's exactly what the conversation is about.
In the OP we introduced a new route through which the game can be completed.
You called route B a side-quest because you can finish the game entirely through route A.
Then I showed you that by the same rule, route A is also a side-quest, since you can also finish the game entirely through route B, without doing an 80 second generator (aka flat gen, aka route A, aka the vanilla way), meaning that your use of the word side-quest is really off.The only one that doesn't understand these most basic concepts is you. xD
I promise you I follow the conversation, and it's rather amusing. -
Nope that’s not what we are or were talking about at all, regardless of what you call them you stated they do not have to be done at all.
You are a troll, clearly.
What I said is that there is route A and Route B. You can finish the game completely through 1 route.
Route A is flat generators. (Vanilla)
Route 2 is part-generators. (OP)A revolves around 1 button.
B revolves around repositioning yourself, searching for things, etc.You have to finish generators (aka the objective). You don't have to finish flat generators (aka holding m1 without needing to ever move)
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@Paddy4583 said:
No that’s your definition, no One else calls them thatDo you know how language works?
There's a word:
There's a definition:
The word is defined by the person first uttering it.You can find the definition the first time it is used, and others understood it. (some may even understand it without finding my definition since I use the word "Flat" similar to other uses of the word, commong in MOBA's and other.
Flat refers to unchanged; basic, unaltered.
"Flat armour", "Flat attack power" and in DBD "Flat generators".It is everyone's definition, which is why you are the only person that doesn't understand it.
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Paddy4583
Yes. An 80 second generator. Guess what the definition is of a flat generator xD
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@thesuicidefox said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
AN ALTERNATIVE TO PRESSING M1You mean we can press M2?!
If you just press m2, then it won't take long before the Crows will start to circle you.
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blah blah I know what I’m talking about thanks
I doubt it. You didn't actually quote me anyways. That would've proved you wrong.
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@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Funny a few comments ago you said you don’t have to do gens as they are at all... make your mind up
You mean flat gens?
Nope gens that’s what they are
If you were quoting me, then no, you weren't talking about a generator. You were talking about a flat generator specifically.
So that's not what "they" are.If you install x amount of Parts on a generator and then start working on it, you're doing a generator, but you are not doing a flat generator.
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Funny a few comments ago you said you don’t have to do gens as they are at all... make your mind up
You mean flat gens?
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@Free_Hugs said:
I think the issue here is, you're still doing "flat gens" even with 5 parts installed. You're just doing them for 10 seconds instead of 80. But you're still doing them. You're still just holding M1 on a gen, just like you did before. It's just faster.Flat gens means doing a 80 second generator. If it doesn't take 80 seconds it's not a flat gen.
To use your example of oj or coke, having multiple ways to do the same thing, in the end, the same way, does not make variety.
It does. Take RuneScape fishing. Instead of there being 1 spell, there are multiple spells through which you can change your magic. The fact that you are training magic doesn't change that multiple spells add variety, even though you're essentially doing the same thing (training magic).
I wouldn't even acknowledge this as a side quest, significantly less a main quest. Unless you would argue holding a toolbox is an alternative main quest, because it is technically different.
A toolbox doesn't require you to play differently. Parts do.
In the end, (nearly) all DBD's actions a survivor can do without the killer will conform to the trinity mentioned in the OP.
You either do a progress bar, whether long or near instantly as unhooking, requiring you to go to a certain position to finish it.
You either search for something.
Or you either collect things (picking up).
Your following suggestion will fall in the same trinity:Imho, a secondary objective should be separated from gens completely. That's why I suggested it modifying exit doors, which are distinct and different. Otherwise it's just dressing up the same, boring, thing. Holding M1 on gens.
The difference between the Parts mechanic I mentioned and the example I gave that other people suggest:
"Doing 5 gens > Fixing Cables > opening the exit gates"
These type of secondary objectives aren't really secondary. You can't choose, because you'll always have to do them. There isn't a game where you can get out without doing them.
In the cable fixing example, you can't even choose the order in which you do things. In your example, you can change the order, but you can't choose whether you want to do it, because you will be forced to every game. -
@Edys said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@EdysYour comment just disappeared. Do you have it saved in a draft?
no, for some reason if I edit it a few times it disappears and needs to be approved by the mods.. it will reappear eventually
Good, because my quotations weren't sufficient at displaying your comment xD
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Your comment just disappeared. Do you have it saved in a draft?
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early game
You won't have to do 2 generators if you're doing parts. Having multiple with 5 parts is also perfectly fine.
Now: The part where you mention the total rate at which you do gens: You are correct, the variables from the OP would indeed make the Part system a slower alternative route, for the mere reason that the creating and repairing alone already takes up 15 seconds (without walking) while also just eliminating the 15 seconds, meaning it CANNOT be faster than doing a generator.The reason I've kept it like this is that it's important that this secondary part system gives us the tools to slow down the game, yet preventing it from becoming impossible to play the late-game.
So to follow my thoughts here: Imagine that through calculating average walking time for parts, we've made getting parts and installing them JUST AS FAST as doing flat gens. Not slower not faster. This would create the issue of:
If a craft-spot is closer to a generator, they would do the parts. If there isn't one close, they would do the gen, thus increasing the rate at which survivors can do gens.
For this reason I'd want the numbers to be on the weaker side, as buffing things is less negatively perceived as nerfing things.
Also, if in the ideal world both eh Parts route and the flat generator route would be just as fast, then the Part route would always be superior, as you can interpret it as a normal generator which cannot be regressed beyond a certain point. The Part therefore should (at least at later parts) be weaker than finishing the generator, as it would otherwise completely render doing flat generators useless.middle game
As for the 3 gen patterns: The Parts are superior at dealing with a 3 generator strategy. There is no problem here. If the killer is guarding 3 generators, survivors have all the time they need to collect parts, meaning that they can essentially "work on a generator without being there". They only need a 5 second installation and can return to a safe spot. In other words: The 3 gen-strat is less valid as people can work on generators in 6 different spots.
As for the SWF critique: As with everything that introduces more complex strategies, a more coordinated team will be able to utilise it better. Though if the Parts were implemented and the older route would be freed from stagnation, the overall time a team needs to complete all gens should be increased, while not being to hurtful to the late-game. The 10 seconds of having to wait for someone to create the part wouldn't probably the main highlight, but the fact that SWF's can communicate where they are going to put them is what would mostly be highlighted by the virtue of communication.
Of course we could prostitute a perk like Deja Vu to always reveal all generators in red and their installed parts in yellow, but that is not the ideal philosophy, since this perk would be link Bond and given to SWF for free.
There are multiple ways of addressing that though. Perhaps similar to how survivors are notified which gens have been completed, there are also ways for them to know where parts are installed.Late game
Although I don't know why we would be 3 genned or whether the killer checks the crafting spot, there are still 2 available. The survivors would still be able to progress the game better than ever before. They also need a terrible version of a 3 gen in order to not be able to sit on it for 5/at the end 10 seconds.
Unsafe gens that typically create 3 gens are more easily to do now since you don't have to sit at that dangerous location for x amount of seconds, so the ability of you being interrupted should also be smaller.
The 3 gen will be least of the issue. The strongest point here is SWF (and in particular their knowledge on where parts are installed).
Although for experimentation's sake, I'd still keep the Part-route slow, for the reason that there is something nobody has yet brought up as an argument on why the Part-Route is so strong; which is that your location is significantly more uncertain and that alone is already a great strength.There are multiple ways to inform survivors where the parts are installed. if you have your own suggestions, feel free to comment them (:
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Oh yeah for sure, So many times I’ve been killer and the games started no gens done and the little buggers have all escaped, really gets me salty.
Those games didn't have Parts.
Also you should say Flat Gens, not gens. Gens can also mean generators with Parts. -
@Paddy4583 said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Still wrong. Doing the main objective very slowly is still not side-questing. Not doing the main objective: that is side-questing.
Fits my definition of one:
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
so to me it’s a side quest and you won’t change my definition.So you'd call doing a generator for 80 second also side-questing since it's also optional and doesn't have to be done?
You can open the exit gates without having done a single flat gen. Wouldn't call doing flat gens mandatory. You've convinced me; that's side-questing (:
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Which defeats the point of why the devs want to add new objectives to slow games down.
About this part; the Devs can't simply slow the game down. This would only balance things for higher ranks and make people even more team-dependent/hatch-dependent.
DBD needs a structure through which it can function during every stage of the game. The game should both be slowed down, but also durable once people start to die off.
The structure of the Parts is deliberately designed around the problem of generator-regression and people's ability to leverage time at lower counts of survivors alive, which maelstrom10 correctly compares to: x cannot regress beyond a certain point. -
Which defeats the point of why the devs want to add new objectives to slow games down. It will only work if they are mandatory.
Alright, so imagine this:
take the numbers from the OP, they are deliberately slower than doing flat generators. (as you can see, even creating the part + installing it is 15 sec alone. This times 5 = 75. Walking will add to that.)So imagine this is mandatory. Then we'd have slowed the game down, right?
Now, because we have 2 ways of doing the main objective, neither is mandatory. But we can now safely nerf the other route, which we'll call doing Flat-Gens.There are multiple tools available to do that;
-Increasing Generator time: (easiest)
-Allowing killers to kick generators with instant damage (with the amount that we deem healthy)
-As Maelstrom10 suggested, making generators automatically regress at a slower rate than after being kicked.
(And probably a lot more)All and all, we can nerf route A since we have Route B, and we can nerf route A to the extend that we want to, because it wouldn't break the game as long as either routes is still in tact, though it would prevent anyone from using it.
So when choosing which route should be stronger, then I'd still argue that at least for later parts, doing flat gens should be the better options as it doesn't have the same Pro's adding parts has, thought that'd be up for the Devs to decide.
What is crucial to know is how such balance works when having double the routes through which the main objective can be completed (or even 3, or 4 etc).
The possibilities are endless. -
Still wrong. Doing the main objective very slowly is still not side-questing. Not doing the main objective: that is side-questing.
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The way you phrase it, you'd think that that would be a very common occurrence, which I disagree with. And generally, things shouldn't be centred around the uncommon.
No I'm saying that with those variables, it has the ability to become either UBER common or completely uncommon, based on how you do the variables.
That is my point. With this implementation, the structure is in place. The only thing left to do is find what one might call "the bliss point."For example, if you'd wanted to make the Parts extremely relevant, then you'd do something like: The 1st part gives you a multiplier of 8 and everybody would use it.
If you want people to never use it then the last part gives you a multiplier of 1.1 and nobody would use it, not even in the late-game. -
@Maelstrom10 said:
Upvoted. i really like this idea and completely agree with the idea that no action should be mandatory (beyond actually completing the generator that is) if anything, i think that gen times are already too long on their own with a single player working on them. that being said while i don't wish for longer gen times per say i do recognize that gens (collectively) go to fast. the parts system (when impacting the last survivor alive) essentially acts as a more cohesive "left behind" (bills perk) where gen speeds increase (and if im following correctly) can no longer regress past a certain point. im supremely down for that, and i think along with that buff of allowing people to stop gens regressing past a certain percent, we should buff the amount taken off a gen by a killers kick (but increase the time to kick a gen (atleast in a chase) so killers have to choose to kick them in chases). so long as there is an infinite ability to make parts at different locations, and those locations are limited in nature, then im all for it. along with the fact that this would effectively increase generator times by putting the survivors in a situation where they likely need to go get a part then i love the idea (ie gens take longer without them then they do now.)My posts don't need to be so long if people like you can read my mind (:
I'd also like to add onto the killer buff/nerf to kicking i mentioned earlier, that adding very slight (1% per like 5-10s sort of slow) degeneration to gens when no ones working on them after a certain amount of time would be extremely nice, meaning that if the killer moves you off a generator, it will very very slowly regress, (percent of degeneration should be far slower then if the killer kicks it to still motivate them to kick it, yet still be helpful if the killer can apply extraordinary map pressure)
Hell maybe build in overcharge but make it a regular skill check, and buff the perk by making it soundless or smallerThere are a lot of regression options that we can explore indeed. I didn't cover them here but what you mention could easily be possible and since you can move generators down to 10 seconds could hardly ever become problematic.
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@DocOctober said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Paddy4583The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory.Outside of your perfect DbD world, I see no reason why Survivors would choose your secondary option over just using the good old gen rush.
For 1 and 2: It's the only option you have left when there are 2/3 people alive that have a certain amount of gens left to do. (If we take the environment representing dbd in it's current state).
If you imagine DBD in a state in which you can no longer rely on a hatch and the free escape aspect has been removed, then it's the only safe option. With different ratio's between x amount of parts + gen-time, doing x parts may be more beneficial rushing wise. (Such a thing also varies based on whether someone's bring toolboxes).
It all comes down to which variables you choose and which (problematic) vanilla systems remain unchanged.
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The analogy is correct.
Previously you could only fill the glass with orange juice (gens requiring 80 charges)
Now there is cola.
The introduction of cola makes neither cola nor orange juice mandatory, but it does make picking 1 or a combination of mandatory. -
@Paddy4583 said:
Yes please, what do you have in mind?I wouldn't call it an optional side quest. It's 1 of the 2 main routes through which you can complete your objective. With the current variables typically slower than choosing route A but with more late-game security.
If your mission was to fill a glass with liquid and you could choose to fill it with either cola or orange juice, I wouldn't call filling the glass with cola you doing an optional side-quest to filling the glass. It'd be doing the main objective.
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