AGM
AGM
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I honestly think they handed off the design of Skull's power to a group of new interns or new hires who don't know much about the game...
I bet the janitor and a potted plant could have done a better job.
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CoH is finally balanced in its current form, and by extension, boons as a mechanics are no longer a failed idea because of a single overpowered perk. Dark Theory can finally be buffed by being given a secondary effect, and they can hopefully start introducing more boon perks again.
If you really want to be healed, try using Bond to help you find teammates and Leader to boost their heal speed, Resurgence or Renewal to heal when unhooked very easily, or Inner Healing.
CoH will never get back the ability to self heal, and it should absolutely stay that way.
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@betelgeuseyes said:
Reading all these comments, guys act like you can't be healed in dying state... Or that all survivors run the same perks. I even said what if it was a boon totem then it wouldn't be abused but no one here sees that. But yeah, you guys get all the likes even when you got it wrong. Wow.
The idea sucks. In any form. Period. For the reasons everyone has already said.
If you're going to whine when nobody likes your ideas and gives you feedback as to why, then stop posting them, as you obviously can't handle constructive criticism without taking it personally.
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@jesterkind said:
For the record, the dev update said you get activations of Dead Hard via being unhooked Instead of getting unhooks, not in addition. So based on the wording, there is a hard limit of two Dead Hard uses per survivor, and they have to be staggered between hook states instead of used at the survivor's discretion. It's a huge nerf.
Similarly, it's worth mentioning that CoB and OC weren't chosen frequently "because killers have no other perks", but because they enabled the 3-gen camping strategy, which was obviously unhealthy and warranted being nerfed. Pain Resonance is a different story, I'll grant you that, but CoB and OC did need to be nerfed. It wasn't arbitrary.
+100% speed on CoH is slightly concerning, but that's really the only thing to be concerned about in this patch. It still can't be used to self heal or chain with medkits, and medkits themselves are substantially weaker, so at bare minimum the self-heal problem has been fixed.
The buff to heal speed on CoH is only to make up for the time it takes to place it, and the time it takes for other survivors to come to the boon area to heal an injured player. And since that healing bonus doesn't work with med-kit heals, it sounds like a smart change to me.
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I think it's a bit complicated.
Her kit is a mishmash of half-baked abilities that kinda... suck: pseudo stealth, pseudo mobility, and pseudo game delay. Since these abilities don't perform their designated function well, and her add-ons barely do anything (except for two I'll talk about in a bit), she's pretty difficult to play as (and boring to many) if played like a normal killer.
However...
Players who set out to learn a killer usually find the killer's most effective way to be played and for Sadako it's her 'no hook, condemn kill' playstyle that relies on two very specific, fairly rare add-ons. This playstyle results in a game that is unlike any other way to play DBD, and also quite difficult if not impossible for many teams to play against, especially when not on coms. It results in: survivors being slugged on the ground for long times, punishments for teammates picking up slugged survivors by giving the rescuer a stack of condemned, and an inability for survivors to actually use the de-condemn mechanic either because the killer teleports to the TV the survivor needs, or because they physically don't have the time in between killer attacks to insert the tape due to Save the Best for Last.
So on one hand we have a killer that feels really bad to play for the killer player if played "traditionally," and on the other hand a killer that, because of two add-ons, feels horrible to play against if the 'no hook, condemn kill' playstyle is used. And I think people who play both sides remember both of these 'facts' which makes most players except the diehard Sadako fans actively avoid playing her. That's my take on why Sadako's pick rate is so low.
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@ARTRA said:
In short, now those 2 together are less than actual CoB.
CoB 200% and Over 75%-200% together were two instances of extra 100%. Total speed at max of 300%.
Now CoB is 125% and over 85%-130%. Total of 155% at max.
Kick regression speed is 4 times slower as 1 survivor repairing.
So 1 min of repair is the same as 4 mins kicked.(no perks,items,skillcheks).
That means that with CoB after a full minute duration instead of regressing 15 sec of survivors repair it will regress 18.5 sec. Adding around 3.5 seconds after 1 minute.
Over in one min should be around 4 seconds(this is just quick math).
Now both together after 1 minute of not stop regression adds like 7 seconds of regression. From basic 15 seconds/minute to 21 seconds/minute with both perks.
Before they added like 35 seconds in one minute. From basic 15 seconds/minute to 50seconds/minute with both perks. Almost the same as 1 surv repairing.
Its a nerf of the 75% of the power of those perks.
So CoB is an info perk now and you can send guard after noise notification.
And over its an ""anti-tip"" gen perk.
You can check info in wiki to compare if something seems weird.
Hope this numbers helps. Have a good day.
Did some more in depth analysis and the nerf to Overcharge is WAY worse than I thought.
Figuring out exactly how much regression Overcharge provides in the first 30s requires calculus, but for those who don't care about the math, the first 30s of Overcharge basically regresses a generator by ~8s, or essentially a ~107% multiplier assuming the gen never gets touched for 30s.
Here's my workup:
t1 = 0
t2 = 30
y1 = .2125 = .25(.85)
y2 = .325 = .25(1.3)
y = mt + b; plugging in t1 and y1 gives b = .2125; now plugging in t2 and y2 gives: .325 = 30m + .2125, so m = 0.00375
therefore y = 0.00375x + .2125 is our graph of regression rate over time
now to figure out regression, we integrate; int[0 to 30] of 0.00375x + .2125 = (0.00375/2)(x^2) + .2125x = 1.6875 + 6.375 = 8.0625 charges.
So, over the full 30s, the generator will have regressed 8.0625 charges, which is only 0.5625 charges more than base regression which is, again, only if the gen isn't touched in that time. And if we add on another 30s of regression at 130% to reach a minute, as you did in your post, that's only another 9.75 more charges, for a total of 17.8125, which only adds 2.8125s more repair time over base regression.
Jesus, Overcharge is just... amazingly, fantastically pathetic now.
For reference, failing an Overcharge skill check results in 12.6 charges of regression, or ~2/3rds of what a gen would regress using this perk by itself over a whole minute...
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I'd argue that only being able to run 4 perks and an item/power with 2 add-ons already is a cap. Not a numerical one, sure, but a numerical one would get pretty messy pretty quickly anyway.
But I actually lied, because even though there isn't an arbitrary number that an action's speed can't exceed, with the way speed increases are calculated, the higher the rate of an action is, the more of a rate increase it takes to get the same amount of speed, a.k.a. diminishing returns.
Take We'll Make It and new CoH. Base healing speed (100%) is 16s. Healing someone with We'll Make It (100% + 100% = 200%) is 16/2 or 8s, where the first +100% saved 8s. Healing someone with We'll Make It in CoH (100% + 100% + 100% = 300%) is 16/3 or ~5.3s; the "first" extra 100% saved 8s, but the "second" only saved ~2.7s more.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396134#Comment_3396134
Or the early game will be worse, because the killer won't have any great regression perks to slow down the generators. The DH nerf didn't happen in a vacuum. The gen regression perks were better than all the other slowdown perks, and they all got nerfed, but none of the other slowdown perks got buffed, so now killers are stuck with worse slowdown than before.
That's the point...
If survivors can't heal themselves as quickly or easily, nor have a third health state from the get go, killers will have quicker access to best way to slow down the game: downing a survivor. And if you can do that more easily, you won't need to rely on regression perks as much, and therefore make do with the nerfed ones. Corrupt, Pop + Eruption, Sloppy + Jolt, Deadlock... hell, even Ruin + Plaything + Penti are all viable options. Or, maybe with this new patch, slowdown perks won't even be "necessary" anymore, but just another option for those who want them, with the end goal in mind of BHVR weaning killers off of their opiate "slowdown perk" addiction.
They're trying to adjust the game so that slowdown perks aren't considered needed anymore, but are still there for those who want them. Why don't you want that? And why are you complaining about a new meta that hasn't even had time to form yet?
The patch hasn't even been released and you're treating the nerfing of some quite unhealthy perks as a disaster without considering the "compensation" killers get in other areas...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395786#Comment_3395786
No, I'm not glad at all, because I removed Eruption from all my perk loadouts because it's completely useless to me. Eruption's ability to regress or stall generators is trash compared to what it used to be. I also removed CoB and Overcharge from all my perk loadouts, because those are all trash compared to what they used to be too.
And I don't care if people can't use it on the 1st chase. I still potentially have to deal with 2 DHs per survivor that has the perk equipped, and since the DH's actual effect is exactly the same, it's just as unfun and awful as it currently is.
And it could be better if the original PTB version went live, where the person being unhooked doesn't get DH, so I don't feel an urgent need to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
It's almost as if BHVR has realized that regression perks as a concept have been way too strong across the board, crowding out any other perk that doesn't slow the game down from ever being used, while making the mid/late game easier for killers and harder for survivors than they think it should be.
Meanwhile the DH nerf makes the early game easier for killers and harder for survivors, allowing killers to have an easier early game in exchange for a (slightly) harder mid/late game when taking the self heal nerfs into account.
Sounds good to me for both sides; more perk variety, less of a possibility of having 3 gens done before your first down, more encouragement to heal altruistically. I don't see the problem.
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@HagsOnlyFans said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395644#Comment_3395644
and you don't think exhaustion perks and healing boosts arent?
I'm sorry its really hard to listen to an opinion that UNHEALTHY
Some people just can't handle the hard truth I guess. Oh well. By all means, please don't let me stop you from living in your fantasy reality.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395477#Comment_3395477
Most survivors wouldn't care about a hypothetical 6 or more potential. With the original PTB version, they would quickly notice that some of their games ended up with 0 activations, and would drop the perk.
Also, we know the new DH isn't really worse than the original PTB version, because these forums aren't flooded with complaints that DH got "double nerfed in one PTB". And considering that survivors went from "the PTB dead hard is awful" to "thanks BHVR for listening to feedback", we are very sure the new DH is a huge un-nerf compared to the original PTB version.
Shouldn't you be glad that when they nerfed this perk they still left it semi-useable, similarly to Eruption?
They usually nerf the strong perks into uselessness, like Ruin, but every once in a while they manage to actually balance a perk.
For what it's worth, for some perks the nerfs into oblivion were necessary, like CoB and Overcharge, since they had a very powerful effect that activated without any interaction with other players.
But I think this Dead Hard change is actually brilliant.
If you want to use DH, you either have to go without any exhaustion perk for your first chase, or you have to use another perk slot with a different exhaustion perk. (Brings back memories of when people used to run original DH and Balanced Landing in the same build a while ago.)
And as killer, your first chase with every survivor will nearly always require only 2 health states to down the survivor, ensuring that they won't be able to waste as much of your time at the beginning of the game, when the killer is at their weakest and the other survivors are slamming gens.
My prediction is that Dead Hard usage will drop for a little while then gradually rise, but not to the same level that it was before.
For what it's worth I play both sides, and give this nerf an A-. It could be better, but I'm not sure how. A very good perk balance!
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@HagsOnlyFans said:
So since yall decided to scale back how much you're nerfing healing, you're gonna do the same for all the generator regression perks right?
I just want to make sure its understood that time saves need to be treated equally, faster healing means something needs to be faster for killer too otherwise it creates an imbalance.
Just because it's someone else's birthday doesn't mean you get a cake too. Especially when you already got your consolation pie.
Maybe try using any other type of perk to achieve the best slowdown there is in the game: downing a survivor.
Game balance is not a tit-for-tat transactional relationship. Things holding the game back get changed.
This time they addressed the unhealthy self healing meta for survivors, and the unhealthy gen kick meta for killers; them being in the same patch isn't entirely a coincidence nor entirely unconnected. They needed changing, so they changed them.
Regression perks in general have needed nerfing for a long time, because they are so strong that people refuse to play without them (as evidenced by this post) to the point where no other killer perks can compete no matter how reasonably they get buffed.
Call of Brine and Overcharge were especially unhealthy for the game, as they required no interaction with survivors in order to activate their extremely powerful effects, which going forward will be a huge red flag (i.e. being a meta defining slowdown perk without requiring interaction with the other team) that a perk might need some changes.
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Calm Spirit, Dance With Me, Decisive Strike, Déjà Vu, Head On, Kinship, Overcome, Pharmacy, Potential Energy, Resurgence;
A Nurse's Calling, Awakened Awareness, Barbecue & Chilli, Dead Man's Switch, Hex: Retribution, I'm All Ears, Oppression, Thrilling Tremors.
The majority of these I would say are decent perks that just need some slight duration buffs, cooldown reductions, or some QoL effects.
For example, Kinship could just activate automatically when you're on your second hook stage and give your team a timed buff icon notification to let them know you have it and when it will run out, and I'm All Ears, Oppression, and Thrilling Tremors could all stand to have their cooldowns decreased (especially Oppression).
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I bet they think we're all idiots reporting the previous bug it had. Either that or they're so overwhelmed with the PTB feedback that the message is getting lost in the chatter.
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For what it's worth, I think the most glaring issue with the base heal change is that now mangled will be in almost every game resulting in 30s heals. Hook stage timers are 60s. So if a survivor is hooked and face camped, and there aren't any survivors already healing or healed in order to have 2 healthy survivors up to force the save, the survivor on hook will literally be unable to be saved in time before the hook stage timer ends. And that's just the first, most egregious problem, but I've talked about it so, so much now that I'm getting tired of repeating myself on the other points.
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If they don't keep altruistic healing at 16s I will probably stop playing survivor. If they nerf Engravings I will stop playing Billy until they give him an add-on pass.
Everything else I can adapt to.
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These ideas are really bad, no offense. The hook stage suggestion could be easily abused and decrease the incentive for teammates to get other players back in the game as quickly. Not being able to try to escape on hook means you can't leave games you don't want to play in anymore as easily which is obnoxious. A 10% hindered penalty on anything for the remainder of the trial is unfun and overkill on something like Dead Hard. Your Ruin idea is bizarre; not functioning with Undying is unintuitive, and it revealing itself in any way would make it get cleansed guaranteed within 1 minute of your first hook if not sooner. Deliverance is perfectly fine as is. Returning Pop to being total regression runs counter to the idea of trying to get away from a gen regression focused meta, and nerfing the base regression speed while also not letting it work with gen regression speed boosting perks is, again, unintuitive. What if a gen regressing after a Pop then gets Jolted or Erupted?
The DS idea isn't quite as as bad and has a little merit to it, but the incapacitated timer would have to be something like 10 seconds maximum, as it wouldn't be fair to Nurse, who wouldn't be able to even go after a different survivor due to being slower than survivors. And something like that would definitely still need to be only 1 time use per game. Though it decaying slower if slugged would be fine, imo.
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@Peanits said:
I respect the theory, but I assure you there's nowhere near as much scheming going on as you might think. I would love nothing more than to announce some changes and celebrate with people as they say, "Wow, this is perfect!" from the get-go. Obviously that's easier said than done with an asym game, but we try our best.
In reality, we just aren't afraid to try bold things. The PTB exists for a reason. We can try these things out and see how people feel. If it's not popular; that's fine, we can change it before it goes live. We've gotten a lot better at this as time has gone on. There's a lot more knobs and switches we can fiddle with behind the scenes to make these changes a lot quicker than before, making it less risky to try. Basically, be bold, but be receptive.
Ultimately, nobody can say for sure how people are going to feel about something until it's actually out there. Not even us. We would much rather test things and get feedback than be too scared to touch anything and constantly wonder, "What if?"
For what it's worth, I think that the way the Developer Updates are worded could use some work. Instead of announcing everything as if "this is the way things are going to be" and that players just should deal with it and adapt, announcing certain mechanics like "In this next PTB, we want to consider/see what would happen if/want to try out X mechanic" to avoid giving the impression that the changes will be permanent, feedback be damned.
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It's certainly a casual game. Not the biggest distinction, but there is one.
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@Adjatha said:
Killers lose their 12 best perks, and are left with garbage.
[crickets]
Survivors lose their two best perks, after gaining wave after wave of baseline perks, advantages, information, and buffs.
[Total panic erupts across the countryside]
Ahhhh classic.
Nobody cares about your Us vs. Them nonsense. Most of the changes are fine on both sides. It's the 24s base healing and the Engravings nerfs that most people care about.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382978#Comment_3382978
Not at all, them moving at same speed and addons are a coincidence.
Except ofc, the addons are designed by the same man. But that is irrelevant to any balance discussion, so it its whataboutism.
Do you even hear yourself? "They were designed by the same person/people, but it's a coincidence"? The same person picked 230% twice by random chance? You're not even trying at this point. You're just a contrarian that wants to be right. No point engaging with you.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382424#Comment_3382424
Why does otz opinion matter more than most? He is a fogwhisperer. He actually job for behavior is keeping the game healthy, half of his recommendations have gone into the game already? That's why he is not just some streamer. If anything your just some guy on a forum.
"He is the King, so he must be right" Biggest elitism energy here mate, that is all I can say.
you shown with evidence you simply dismiss it
You mean when Im shows non credible evidence. Some Youtuber isnt a good enough sample size.
when people give valid reasons for why billy does not deserve this nerf you either default to the addons are overperforming without even consulting why that is the case( not seeing the big picture)
I am yet to see a valid reason besides hearsay about those two addons, I even addressed that in my response. But I dont think bHVR even wants it that way. Addons being essential to usage of a Killer is just a bad idea.
or simply ignore it in your response. You cherry pick what you want to argue against and your ego simply ignores the rest.
If there is something you want me to address, simply @ my name and say "I want you to address ... "
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382517#Comment_3382517
From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy.
You cant really have an addon be that essential. Ill bet you half a camel that isnt the intention or public policy I think bHVR is fully aware that most people dislike Hillbilly's addons, if not then they can survey for that information (which maybe they should) but keeping an overperforming addon in the game, just because you guys feel its the only addons you got is not gonna fly I think.
Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
Now I have seen whataboutism on this forum, and ofc some systems are related. But Blight is 100% not related to Billy, and yet he has been brought up again and again. Some other killer's addons not being touched isn't an argument for not touching a completely different killer. I really don't know why you guys try that. Blight will get his nerfs for sure, bHVR isn't a hypocrite for washing the floor when the hedge needs trimming too. Those are unrelated.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
If those addons are outliers in every billy build that overperforms, they still need to be toned down. I dont see how saying "they didnt ask why" is even a good reason, first of all you assume they dont know how those addons work and second it disregards the question if its intended for those two addons to be essential. which I dont think is a train bHVR is running on.
Idd like for you to adress if you think those two addons are intended to be essential high mmr enabler addons.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
Oof thats is rough Sailor. But I actually think the engravings have just risen since the last rework, slowly becoming part of overperforming billys again and again. idk how that is incompetency. Seems like a timely reaction to me.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382548#Comment_3382548
BHVR don't nerf overperforming addons. They never did. Instead they nerf addons with high pick rates. Also let's not pretend that Engravings are overperforming. They aren't. Because Billy isn't overperforming. If they were really after overperforming addons Blight would have gotten nerfed a long time ago.
I don't see how you can demonstrate that bHVR does not nerf overperforming addons without access to the stats which you don't have. So how exactly do you know this besides your opinion? Also you might wanna look above about that Blight argument too.
BHVR are either trying to end what they started nearly 3 years ago (killing Billy for whatever reason) or they once again do random stuff that no one asked for. Have you ever heard someone call for a nerf to Billy's Engravings? Because I haven't.
Someone being mad about an addon is not required for bHVR to nerf it, like can you imagine. "Sorry, we cant nerf something because we have not received a complaint." Like come on. There is no way in Hell bHVR operates like this.
You are right that Hillbilly is overdue for some changes and I think most people agree with that.
This is why I advocate for a full Billy Rework, I think bHVR is just doing some routine maintenance on a Killer that really out to get a rework. But really they are not working hard on it, they just tweak a numbers that are overdue. I think if Billy needs some changes, but that requires an entirely diffrent campaign and as we seen in this thread. People dont want him reworked in case they lose the last 7 years of their life.
You're telling us you spoke to a former designer at BHVR? How is anyone supposed to believe that? Until you can back up that claim everyone will just take it as made up, no offense.
Yeah, its just an tidbit. This is why I believe it, I don't expect you to take that reason as justified.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382592#Comment_3382592
Addons can also be OP without overperforming compared to the rest.
OP in a certain situation are SITUATIONAL then, not OP. Even so if that was true, that means those situations happen far too often and that would still justify them being toned down. There is no way bHVR is gonna rework all maps just for one Killer to make sure those situations dont happen as much.
The "hard gameplay" we love is curving, and without these addons the survivor needs to make significant mistakes to get curved. So if we nerf the good curving addons, we wont curve nearly as much. Which is sad, because most billys and most survivors like curves.
I don't think sliding around a Car like it has butter or soap on it is what bHVR was going for. Neither with Blight. I have never had a Billy do that to me and felt, wow great design, really fair and balanced. I don't recall seeing bHVR putting out a statement on that. if you can find me one Ill accept it.
About the people and polls that are not official, I really think you ought to do a really big poll to figure that out, but I don't think bHVR will release the polling.
Why do you think he needs a rework and not a Buff?
- Clunky and unwieldy to play.
- Terrible addons.
- Curving (which I don't think is intentional.)
it would be easier to address all this in a new Power, rather than repurpose the repurposed Power from 2016.
Not every comparison is a case of whataboutism, and doing so shows you're just arguing in bad faith (as usual). Billy and Blight are both mobile killers who literally move at the exact same movement speed in power, and who both have (at least) two add-ons that grant movement speed in power and stack. Blight is literally one of the most appropriate killers to compare Billy to.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381847#Comment_3381847
yes? simply put would their be this much backlash? would said streamer and otz say this is a dumb decision? from what i can see no body has made a post saying this is a welcome change? nor videos or discussions. you are the only one for this change?
Well its funny isnt it, bHVR is the only ones who have the numbers that show that addon overperforming. So what does it mean when Otz or any streamer comes down to say its wrong, How do they know anything? They don't. So what makes their feedback more useful than others, than mine? It does not, its not even an argument, its a fallacy, argument from popularity.
I am willing to take bHVR's side, if the addons are overperforming then they should be nerfed even if I rather want the Killer Reworked. I have no reason to believe bHVR to be working maliciously here. Sorry if you find that strange.
finally if we talking about evidense here what besides your personal opinion is billy unfun to play against? or badily designed? give me that evidense
I like when I ask for evidence, you don't provide me some, you ask my for evidence of my opinion. That is Rich. Idk if it was not clear its my opinion. Like I don't claim every user thinks Hillbilly should be reworked. But some definitely claim like 90% of players have no issue with Hillbilly, only pleasant experiences.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381837#Comment_3381837
I love your enthusiasm, but I have no idea who Twoknee is or how his youtube community is a representative sample of the dbd Community
Also that poll said, playing AS or against.
Statistics are not THAT easy.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382026#Comment_3382026
You made a big response here and ill show you the time, which you show me. Now you don't use quotes here on the website so I'm unsure what each section is in response to.
The difficulty with billy directly comes from the movement speed. It's mechanical and mental difficulty from having to time everything right ON TOP of correctly guessing their actions.
This change doesn't make billy harder, just weaker. The interactive part of the power in chase is the high movement speed, high sensitivity window. Any slower directly hamstrings both the difficulty and strength. He won't have the ability to curve to the same capacity, and just have to use his saw for backrevving/zoning.
Sounds like more bad design to me, a set of addons should not be essential to his power on higher mmr. but to me, these points only show major issues with Hillbilly, which a rework could rectify. It does not really convince me to think that bHVR should let you keep an overperforming addon anyway. I talked to one of their former designers today, the guy who did those addons today, He says he knew they would come for those addons eventually.
Now if I understand that correctly and you believe those addons have that purpose, then perhaps those addons should be reworked into the Killer's basekit=? Then you have your own rework idea. But I am unsure how you can convince people of this because to anyone looking in, it just looks like everyone who plays billy at high mmr uses those addons cause they are best. You would have a good argument if this will cause a significant drop in Billy's Kill rate. But I would think bHVR could call that bluff because I know they can see the Killrate with/without those addons. I do get you I think, but its hard to confirm.
About the whole Hard part honestly you kind of just replied to a quip rather than my point on overperforming addons. Not really sure we will get anywhere discussing what is hard and what is not, pretty useless to talk about something so subjective. Weak or mechanical difficult makes it hard in like every dictionary. I do get you want a mechanically difficult Killer here.
I am also glad you agree Billy could use some changes, at least we agree on something now.
And the evidence for the last point you mentioned will never be enough, you're clearly discrediting that purely off of what you see as ego. You're not looking to have a conversation. And that's fine if you don't like me because you think my word may have some inherent bias, but let's refocus on the main point, alright? The mention of me streaming has zero relevance to any point in your eyes, but that's no reason to make snide comments. It shows nothing but bad faith.
No literally, if we could make bHVR put in a part in the next Survey that asks what is your favorite Killer to go again and if Hillbilly shows up as significantly well liked Killer to vs then I literally have to eat my words. Its rather rude you think me that dishonest.
I have no problem with you, only the arguments you have chosen to bring into this thread. That is why I quipped it.
Now weather you think Im bad faith or not means not much to me, but I do think im atleast responding directly to your replies and that isnt exactly how bad faith works mate. Maybe its an elaborate smokescreen or maybe Im here because the subject is just interesting to me.
From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy. Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382441#Comment_3382441
The real question is... why not? A blinded zombie doesn't have a big impact in you anyway as you can still move, chase, attack, use your real power and everything. In the other cases the flashlight neutralized the power in some way and degree, even more so in the case of the Hag. And if you think about it, a blinded zombie can be an advantage as it is a signal that not only he found a survivor, they are more than probably close to him. And all the things you said there are still an appropriate counterplay to them, but you can also blind them if you have the chance.
I don't know, I don't really mind for them to leave this specific interaction in as long as they maintain it constant in a future (in other words, if they add other killer with "minions" that have eyes, they can also be blinded).
Again I'd make the argument that his zombies are part of his power. And to be perfectly clear, I don't particularly want the interaction removed per se, I actually like the flashlight interactions with Nurse and Artist especially, I just don't understand why Nemesis was left out of the "item X shouldn't disable killer powers" pass.
And as for your point on killers with minions, I assume you mean autonomous, and I'd argue the Knight has minions that are semi-autonomous once locked on, and flashlights do nothing to them.
It just seems inconsistent to me, but I'm willing to admit that I could be in the minority on this. I'd just really love to hear from the devs about their reasoning when choosing to ignore this interaction but not all the others.
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@Batusalen said:
None of the other powers affected by flashlights have an autopilot and moves around the map without any direct input from you and for basically free, searching and hurting survivors. You can't drop pallets on top of the other powers either because that powers are not a separate entity from you.
I don't mind that zombies are still affected by flashlights as they are technically "extra minions" and not your main power... but for the love of the T-Virus, improve their AI! I'm tired of seeing survivors passing right besides the zombie and it going straight up the other direction the survivor is or simply not detecting him, among other things.
But then why is it flashlights and not something base kit, as they did with Hag? Why is leaving the area, or using teamwork, or actually using a pallet to kill a zombie not appropriate counterplay? Why does one specific item now counter a non-insignificant aspect of (now) only one killer's power? Nemesis' add-ons modify his zombies; does this not make them intrinsically linked?
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Failure in every sense, from power to perks to design. Thank god this dumpster fire is never played and can be bought with shards if you want her or her perks for some ungodly reason.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382268#Comment_3382268
I mean some mismatch on which addons they should be focusing on is destroying the game? That's going a bit over board don't you think?
Healing will take much longer but all the gen regression perks are getting nerfed as well. The killers need slow down somewhere. If it's not in the gens it's in healing. How is this destroying the game?
Step 1: Devs make heal time 24s.
Step 2: Sloppy/Mangled becomes meta.
Step 3: It now takes 60s to heal 2 survivors to full, which is the same amount of time as 1 hook stage (not counting the time it takes for them to find each other)
Step 4: Killer camps; since it takes at least 2 survivors to rescue vs. a camping killer due to the BS of being able to grab healthy survivors while rescuing, they automatically get a free hook stage if the survivors have to reset
Step 5: Survivors stop playing because this is some stupid, piss poor excuse for game balance that anyone can see if they just do some goddamn math.
As for the add-ons; it just adds to the frustration that they have no idea what they're doing. Who asked for an Engravings nerf? Who is going to use Freddy's blindness add-ons, or Oni's add-ons which increase movement speed while absorbing blood orbs? They needed to be REWORKED, not thrown token buffs that still don't justify using them!
Meanwhile they have a GIGANTIC backlog of killers who need add-on passes: Billy (again, but don't ######### it up this time), Myers, Freddy (again), Slinger, Pyramid Head, Blight (for having OP as hell add-ons that remain UNTOUCHED), Twins (which was promised well over 6 months ago but is nowhere to be seen), Nemesis, and Sadako.
Not to mention the dud that the last two chapters have been, both killer-wise and perk-wise.
I am so tired. I don't want to be so negative. But they insist on releasing 4 new killers every year despite the obvious lack of ideas, polish, originality, etc... and refuse to fix the backlog of trash we already have because it doesn't make money.
Gen kick meta, dead? Good. Dead Hard nerf, great! CoH nerf, fantastic! QoL and accessibility improvements, wonderful!
But some people in that company I have had it with. It's so hard to be positive about a game where the developers won't even work out basic consequences of their changes.
"I'm sure they'll listen to feedback after the PTB!" you say. But the bottom line is that the Engravings nerf and 24s base heal speed nerf should not have needed more than 5 minutes worth of thought to understand why they shouldn't have even dedicated coding manpower to it in the first place.
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@Blueberry said:
How are they destroying their game?
Obnoxiously slow healing times, and nerfing good add-ons on bad killers while ignoring/refusing to rework the bad add-ons on bad killers and ridiculously overpowered add-ons on good killers.
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Not surprising. Potential new players deserve to know what they're getting into. That the devs are basically chickens without heads that happened to strike oil in 2016 and have been Mr. Bean-ing their way through one self imposed disaster to the next for 7 years.
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You think Dredge is too strong? Dredge. An M1 killer with an RNG dependent teleport, a 50/50 zoning tool that slows you to a crawl, and some "stealth" that lights you up like a Christmas tree is too strong?
Have you played a bunch of matches with him, with his best perks and add-ons? Have you experienced the vast disparity in locker placement and amount across different maps? Are you aware of the counterplay against Dredge when locking lockers that are considered a group?
...Do you think Freddy is too strong?
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@HaunterofShadows said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381295#Comment_3381295
Yeah. I've mastered the art of not really caring what people think
Something you and the DBD team have in common, it seems.
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@TrueGuardian32 said:
I want to try the new changes before I pass judgement, my question is how much did they nerf it. Did they brutalize it into the ground or just make it slightly worse. I'd like for them to remain untouched but no clue if that will happen.
Imo the "how much" question is a bit irrelevant, because at the end of the day some idiot decided that these add-ons needed any sort of nerfing which just shows unfathomable incompetence.
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For what it's worth I 100% agree with OP and at this point they're just kicking Billy when he's down. These add-ons are some of the very few left that even do ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT and they want to nerf them? Meanwhile Blight with 10 busted add-ons gets no changes? This is purely the result of their idiotic "balancing" philosophy; some guy saw a spreadsheet showing these add-ons being used more than others and never stopped to ask why. It's because Billy has approximately 4 add-ons that even do anything useful in the first place!
Off-Brand Motor Oil, Big Buckle, Leafy Mash, Black Grease, Pighouse Gloves, and now ALL the other overheat add-ons are entirely useless.
God forbid they at least rework some of his garbage tier shite before they nerf some of his only decent add-ons left.
This change has me ######### livid and incredibly disappointed. Especially showing the double standard between Billy and Blight, and especially after Skull Merchant.
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@martinj97 said:
some survivors being objectively better picks than other survivors.
Don't you worry, my friend. All perks will be balanced soon.
Sometime within the next millennium.
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@Blueberry said:
Allow him to close hatch as well as snuffing boons.
Remove the DS stun on successful down. Stop punishing someone for playing well, it just feels terrible.
Nerf CoH self heals/medkits.
Make taking Victor hostage not a thing.
Now they’re solid.
Taking Victor hostage is already not a thing, since you can recall Victor after pouncing on a healthy survivor after a little bit of time.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378025#Comment_3378025
Well I disagree, and no it's not an excuse. I for one think these changes helped. Her 3 gen is of course still strong, but in a healthier way, because now it makes her downing power stronger, as opposed to her defending power allowing her to make matches last 60 minutes. That has at least been my experience. Things and changes aren't always as obvious as they might seem at times. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Also, you can "demand" the devs to go back to the drawing board as many times as you want, doesn't mean they're going to do so, lol. Many people agree that 3 gen is not necessarily a problem of Merchant herself, but of the state that the game is in right now. I had a match on RPD against Nurse with 3 blinks, who could easily just blink to 3 seperate gens at once. 3 gen is not only a Skull Merchant problem, that's for sure.
So I am positive they will want to monitor Skull Merchant a bit after the meta shake up we are probably getting in a few weeks before making any more changes to Skull Merchant. So probably no Skull Merchant drawing board for a bit.
That is of course provided that the meta shake up actually addresses the 3 gen meta in some way or form.
As much as I would like to go back to a meta that requires interaction with survivors in order for killers to benefit from regression perks, the fact of the matter is that with the meta we have now, Skull Merchant can obviously still pick a 3 gen, slap on CoB and Overcharge, and drag out games for ages. They either need to change the perks sooner rather that later or change the killer sooner rather than later, again.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378111#Comment_3378111
The "return" for fixing a bad product is restoring faith in your customers and increasing the likelihood that they will be willing to support your future products. As well as positive recommendations to friends who may be considering the same.
It could be considered particularly important if, say, you were launching a big new product soon, maybe on April 4th, hypothetically...
Yea after the Skull Merchant chapter I'm literally never buying anything from them with real money unless it's a licensed chapter.
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@ad19970 said:
Do you know this from your matches? Because one day isn't that much to know for sure how problematic something is.
Personally, her 3 gen seems weaker to me now. But of course trapped survivors not being able to hack drones may still be too much for her 3 gen, hard to say at the moment. On the other hand, getting rid of that would mean she would need major buffs in other areas.
Personally I do not hope that they completely rework her. I for one very much like her design, I just hope that the devs continue to keep an eye on her, and if she really does turn out to still be a problem, that they add further changes to her, to really fix her.
It needs to be said however that she might be fixed automatically with the meta shake up we will hopefully see right now. Skull Merchant being a problem with 3 genning isn't just a problem of her, but the state of the game she released in. In a different version of DBD, she might have never been a problem in the first place. So I could see the devs wanting to wait and see how the meta shake up affects her before she receives more changes.
It really doesn't take a genius to immediately spot something problematic. This idea that "you just haven't waited long enough to be sure" needs to stop being an excuse for the developers' utter lack of competence, especially when it comes to this abomination of a killer.
These changes did next to nothing to stop her 3 gen camp strat. Back to the drawing board I guess.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377452#Comment_3377452
-"The vast majority of survivors are solo."
The devs gave us stats saying that is not true. More than 50% of all games are played in a swf of some kind. And that was before tunneling/camping/slugging got real bad; most of my friends only play in a SWF.
-"Sometimes you just lose because you're not as good as your opponents, and that's okay"
DBD has god pallets that turn the killer's skill off. Can you imagine if killer had the same thing? Imagine for example if killers stopped having a terror radius for anyone in a SWF.
DBD has maps that are massively survivor sided; where is the 76% kill rate map? That was something we had in 2016 and now Shelter woods is massively survivor sided. Look at all the most recent maps : Shelter woods rework, Red Forest Rework, Knight map, Garden of Joy - all of those maps are so broken.
There's about 1 fair map for killer : Wreckers yard.
Your first point is patently false, but the source from BHVR on solos vs. swf players was from quite a while ago, so I don't know where to find it.
Your second point shows that you're not taking macro level play and game sense into consideration as part of survivors' skill is to waste killers' time at those strong tiles, while the killer needs to make a skill based judgement call on whether they should commit or drop chase and find a survivor in a weaker area.
Also, it's kinda funny that you didn't mention the map that, according to the last time we got map stats, had the highest kill rate as "fair" for killer.
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Would making it so that your bleed out timer doesn't stop while being carried, picked up, and put down help to accelerate the time that people have to endure this without it being abusable in some way?
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I honestly don't understand the nostalgia everyone has for old Freddy. It was an interesting but unsalvageable idea. Not being able to interact with survivors until putting them to sleep was a bad joke. The passive asleep gen speed penalty, combined with being nearly forced to miss a skill check to wake up obnoxiously dragged games on for too long, but even with this in place Freddy was still too weak to win. The unlimited aura reading on asleep survivors outside a certain range would be very unfair in today's DBD. All of these mechanics have no place in modern DBD.
Don't get me wrong: Freddy 100% needs to be looked at. The whole "choosing between snares and pallets" needs to go; the devs should find a way to make both basekit and then give him the biggest add-on pass they've ever given a killer, because he has literally 4 add-ons that are even useful but are boring as hell.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368753/thats-it
People are going to make fun of you but you're not wrong. DBD has unfair maps that make 2/31 killers viable when the survivors you play against have more than a potato between their ears.
I will remind everyone that people who play these games professionally for their job (even the ones with 7-9k hours) resort to camping/slugging/tunneling because high level survivor play is too efficient. It gets even worse vs 3-4 man SWF teams which have no limits.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377417#Comment_3377417
-"You can win with every Killer against the majority of Survivors."
And that's why 90% of the dbd tournaments have Only Nurse and Blight and the survivors have massive perk/item restrictions. How much you wanna bet if I put together a SWF team that you can't win? Since all killers are viable you will play Doctor.
Game will be played best 2/3 on random maps (no picking). Addons will be limited (no iri, 1 max purple/green per player) and you can't run addons more than once for the 3 game set.
IF you got to play Nurse and Blight sure you might be ok... but you dont get to do that so you will get stomped.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377422#Comment_3377422
-"the statement that "Nurse and Blight are the only two Killers that are barely viable" is laughably stupid."
-"What's my key to success? Unpredictability, I dont run meta."
You can run no perks/addons vs garbage mid tier survivors and 4k every time for like 50 games. If you do not need to run meta perks then you are playing low skill players.
Because every game of DBD is a SWF comp squad vs. a newborn baby playing perkless add-onless Wraith?
Comp DBD may as well be a separate game mode for all intents and purposes. The vast majority of survivors are solo. There is great disparity in the skill levels of players. If someone is losing all their games, that's their problem, and will eventually be moved to their appropriate MMR. If they still can't win any games after that, then it's literally a skill issue.
At whatever MMR I'm at, I've gotten 4Ks with Freddy, I've gotten 1Ks with Blight, and vice versa. People need to stop crying that they lost because of the maps every time they lose, because it really makes it harder for the devs to get good feedback on what to change about the actually problematic maps, like Cowshed having a ton of ridiculously strong pallets or Mother's Dwelling being the size of a galaxy.
Sometimes you just lose because you're not as good as your opponents, and that's okay. Just move on to the next game, or take a break from DBD if you're burnt out to the point that you're ranting about Nurse and Blight being the only viable killers in a regular casual game of DBD.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377333#Comment_3377333
Pretty sure Chugger was asking to OP and didnt see Mandy answering.
Huntress & Trickster lullaby have clear distance based on how tense their music are. I understand it clearly.
And my question is toward to Freddy, because I feel his lullaby is different to others, no distance at all. Visual may make it easier to estimate the distance, which may be a nerf to Freddy.
And return to my question, would the visual TR an indirect nerf to Freddy?
Freddy's lullaby absolutely gets louder as he gets closer. You might not be able to tell that, but then you'll get great use out of this new feature I guess.
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@hatchetChugger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368680/new-visual-terror-radius
What about killers like Freddy or Huntress who have lullabies? Will there be sound indications for that as well? What about things like Plague getting corrupt purge, Wraith uncloaking, or even Spirit phase? Is there any plans to expand accessibility further with something like direction audio indicators?
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376699#Comment_3376699
Whats about Freddy lullaby? His lullaby is the hardest to know the distance.
Its like his lullaby goes from 0 to 100 in a few meters, which I dont know how close he is with his lullaby unlike Huntress.
If visual TR show exact distance to lullaby, I would consider this is a nerf to Freddy.
Mandy already answered about lullabies. Yes, they'll be shown as if they were a terror radius in regards to the visual indicator. Please read threads for potential answers to your questions first, as 9 times out of 10 someone will have already asked your question and someone will have already answered it.
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376672#Comment_3376672
the visual terror radius shows the lullaby - the same way as you would if you heard it
I can't help but think that this might provide a huge advantage against Sadako, as it would basically eliminate any aspect of her stealth by giving you an extremely clear indicator that she's approaching while demanifested...
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@H2H said:
There's also at least 1 actual infinite in the Skull Merchant camp on Shelter Woods now too.
Are you referring to the extremely strong window in the tent with that tall fence covered in mesh next to it?
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@dollidahlia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377263#Comment_3377263
I get that it’s boring, but why does nobody ever talk about what’s boring to killers?
it’s always “it’s boring to survivors” but it’s never “it’s boring to killers”. Gen rushing for an example is boring to killers but people just say “pressure harder”
At least in this case it's because the killer is making the decision. And in general, this is what it boils down to; decisions that only the killer can make can vastly change how much fun everyone is having, and if the killer makes the choice to make the match miserable, why does their fun matter?
To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying to never take the killer's fun into consideration, just that their fun matters less in the cases when they are explicitly choosing to make it less fun for everyone, and are (often) the only one that gets to decide that.
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I don't despise the Knight like I do the Dull Merchant but I don't find it particularly fun to have literally all of my other options taken away so that I'm forced to hold forward. Imo the best counter against Knight's is to have a teammate take guard aggro so that you can play as you would vs. any m1 killer but, y'know, solo queue and all that...
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Myers definitely need a fresh coat of paint (slight stalk regen over time on survivors, less drop off over distance on stalk rate, small Tier I buff, etc.) and an add-on pass, but no, he is absolutely not overpowered in the slightest barring Tombstone Piece.
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Swamp with a giant deadzone in the middle and 8 pallets total says hi. Haddonfield can be quite pallet sparse as well.
I agree in some cases; Blood Lodge, Fractured Cowshed, Badham, Garden of Joy, and Borgio usually or always have a metric crap ton of pallets and could absolutely use a slight reduction of 2-3 pallets.
Every other map has either an appropriate number of pallets or has a good amount of slightly weak outplayable pallets.