ForsakenM
ForsakenM
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No one should get banned for this.
BHVR should learn from this and make changes.
This is just people trying to play the game as efficiently as possible and not spend money because they don't believe the game deserves it. I have yet to buy anything (even the Stranger Things DLC which I was compelled a bit) because the devs have yet to show they understand their audience and what truly needs fixed.
That and, whenever they fix something, other things break. Pretty sure that's called sloppy craftsmanship...or should I say Sloppy Butchersmanship?
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So a read a lot of this and to that I have to say...
I would recommend starting a group to make your own game. No offense to BHVR, but I feel like their goal isn't about making the game fun or scary as much as it is about keeping people playing and getting money off cosmetics.
Your take on Doctor in particular sounds absolutely amazing! When I first got into DBD, I thought it was going to be more like a horror game: crazy stuff happening and general creepiness and being spooky but unfortunately the game got very competitive and never really had a scary vibe to begin with. Add on not feeling fearsome as a Killer to the point where survivors have a lot going for them and how survivors can't really interact or fight back and it unfortunately is a missed opportunity.
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@SpacingLlamas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/585237#Comment_585237
Freddy traps work similarly to Hag's water-logged shoe add-on. Slows survivors that activate the trap, unlike Hag's trap though Freddy trap will continue to slow survivors after leaving the trap area similar to Clown gas bottles.
Also the devs have already said they won't do non-humanoid killers because of money and resources, so money definitely plays a part into making new killers
Man, I REALLY don't like their reasoning on that considering how successful they seem to be now, but maybe that could change down the line.
Even so, with just humanoids, there is so much you can do that they haven't delved into yet and each new Killer seems to just take a previous concept they already have done and taken a new angle. They can only do that for so long and they really need to spice it up.
I love all the people coming in here and being cynical when I offered a legitimate discussion. I feel like people really don't like to question the developers of games they like. Be careful of that, or you could end up as the next Pokemon fan base.
I appreciate all those who have offered genuine discussion though.
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@gantes said:
Have you stopped to think that if they deviate TOO MUCH we'll have an even more unbalanced mess?
Killers have to obey certain design thresholds to be healthy. When you deviate too much from that, you have abominations such as release Legion. And Nurse comes close in terms of breaking game mechanics too, she's probably the limit of what they can do without destroying the game completely.
They are very creative inside of what can be done while keeping the game healthy.
And comparing Hag, Trapper and Freddy in terms of traps, just as comparing Spirit and Wraith in terms of invisibility, REALLY takes away from your point.
Honestly, it doesn't. You guys are missing the point.
Clearly there are things that others have mentioned that they haven't even tried to implement in the slightest that could work if done properly. Their game is already unbalanced in favor of Survivors because they keep putting the power in the hands of the Survivor over the Killer, even to the point that the Killer's power can become inert depending on if the Survivors allow it or not.
Legion doesn't break the game: he was balanced improperly and his design was a big on the weaker side, but the reason he was so unfun to go up against was because his Power was used better with a different play-style than what was originally intended. BHVR didn't take this into account, and thus Legion is what Legion is.
The point isn't "You are dumbing down Killers to their base instead of recognizing what makes them different." I AM recognizing what makes them different, I just don't think it's enough and that if BHVR keeps down this road of taking a base they have already done and trying to make small tweaks they will lose people's interest. Even if the Hag players different from Freddy who plays different from Trapper, it doesn't change the fact both Hag and Trapper incorporate traps into their base and the rest of their Power revolves around them (and since all Trapper's power is the trap itself, this is one of the many reasons why he is one of the worst Killers) and that Freddy will now be able to incorporate that as well.
This can also potentially lead to a Killer doing what another one does but doing it better, making other Killers obsolete. Billy vs Bubba and Spirit vs Wraith are good examples of this.
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@Zagrid said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/585144#Comment_585144
The only limit on creativity is the human mind. They can come up of a billion character designs if they wanted to, very few of them would be easy to balance though. They did talk about a killer that can fly and with enough balancing I think it could work. They can also have characters that have AI to help them if they worked to make good enough AI. They could have killers be able to place objects like walls to block survivors into a certain area and maybe damage them. They could have a killer that can't actually hurt survivors but they can have mini killers they can control be around the map. Most of these ideas are in the game Identity V. However its just to show that there are plenty of killers that can be made.
I think for them its mostly money and time that limits them. What will make them the most money in the least amount of time.
Ahh, someone who gets me.
Like I said, it's fine to take something you've already done and mix it up. People do that all the time to avoid boredom. It's why I acknowledge that the Killers who have the same base do have tweaks and play differently, but it doesn't change the fact the base is the same.
Even if the ideas you mentioned are from another game, I love the ideas we have here. I think you are right that they are limiting themselves. I just don't know what it is that is limiting them. It could be money or time or resources, but they seem to be rather successful, so is it really a lack of these things or is it greed?
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@PigNRun said:
The problem here is that you are using the most generalised idea of a Killer. The best example is your comparison of Plague, Clown and Huntress (who is the 4th one with range attacks, by the way? Cant think of any other than those 3). Plague is less about range and more about putting the Survivor in a disadvantage (fully infected or having to deal with Corrupt Purge). Clown is area of denial, shortening chases, and most importantly, doesnt have ranged ATTACKS at all. Huntress is a straightforward first person shooter. What you are doing is forcibly putting Killers in the same bag for having even the slightest similarities.
Secondly, Freddy is a rework. He is our first full-rework of a character. Their original idea for this character wasnt well received, despite of the creativity behind it. Whether he needed a full rework or not, thats another separate matter entirely. Freddy has been out for a while now. They wont gain much from reworking an already released Killer. Using ideas they have already used is probably the better option. They have already invested a ton of time on this. They dont need to spend any more time on potentially a whole other chapter's worth of effort which will get them less revenue in the end anyway. Freddy's case is certainly special, thus I would leave him aside in all this.
Thirdly, the only two cases of properly reusing a power I can think of are Hillbilly and Leatherface, and Myers and Ghostface. And thats it. And what a coincidence, the two "replicas" are (licenced) characters that came in the form of a "paragraph" rather than a "chapter". For the first case, we all know Hillbilly is based on Leatherface in the first place. Everyone knows this. But the game grew in popularity, then they managed to get the character's usage, and bam, we have both of them. This is also a case of the movies limiting how much you can do with said character. Leatherface has his chainsaw and... absolutely nothing else. There isnt much more to do here.
Then lets look at Myers and Ghostface. He is a different approach to one of Myers' several playstyles and focusing solely on it. If anything, I see this as a revisit to the older character and thinking a way to isolate said playstyle and adjust the power accordingly without messing with the original character. Granted they could have done more with Ghostface, no denying on that. But, at the same time, they probably didnt want to spend too many resources on the license of just a mask. Not saying thats wrong or right, or whatever.
Finally, lets look at your suggestions. I will use my first point for this.
- "Obsession" killer: How is taking an already existing system and using it as base for another character different from taking an already existing character and using it as base for another character? See what you did there?
- Circumstantially Weaker/Stronger killer: Thats not only Myers. Thats also Legion, thats also Ghostface, thats Pig, thats Wraith, thats Nurse. Again, see what I did there?
Aha, an actual discussion!
I would label Doctor as having a ranged attack, considering his Shock Therapy is a much longer distance than his Melee attack. Sure, it doesn't deal damage, but it is still something that needs to hit and is outside of Melee range.
I can see where you are coming from with Clown not counting as a ranged Killer, but once again his Power is something that needs to hit and is outside or Melee range, thus making his Power in specific ranged-based.
Plague's Corrupt Purge is just a ranged attack with and augmented hitbox to act more like the fluid she is spewing. In that sense, her Power does not differ that much from Huntress, and sadly that is where she is most powerful and it often gets completely shutdown by Survivors controlling the game. Her previous power works similar to getting a ranged attack on a Survivor except that it takes longer and had the added effects of the Survivor having full control over whether that hit counts or not and being able to spread that to others. Minus the Plague puking on either a Survivor or on an item they interact with, Plague has no control over whether the first part of her even succeeds in being a first hit or spreading to others.
Funnily enough, I thought it was clear that I was talking about just the Powers, not the play-style that is encouraged by the Power, since that is personal preference and often play-styles that are different from the intended one end up being the norm. Then again, I will admit that Clown's area-denial is part of his Power. However, area-denial and chase shortening is not unique to the Clown, as both the Trapper and the Hag attempt to deny you from going through certain areas and every Killer wants to shorten the chase (some to the point where they try to have no chase at all, hence the stealthy play-style).
As for Freddy, I think it's fair to include him since I'm solely basing this on repeated mechanics that keep getting applied to Killers. He will be able to teleport (Hag), set traps (Hag and Trapper) and place fake pallets (Doctor). The things that make this different are that he can't pick where gens are placed and he takes a longer time to teleport with a clear sign he is doing so. I'm not sure has his traps work, so I can't say how they differ from Trapper or Hag. The difference from Doctor is that Freddy will be able to supposedly pick where the fake pallets go, making the Doctor even more obsolete as he needs an add-on just to have them randomly placed. Freddy was sadly very unique and his current state is a result of having a knee-jerk reaction to your player base's reaction without letting the content breathe long enough to make a proper decision.
I have no argument with with you on Billy and Bubba. It's clear that Billy was their Bubba before they could get Bubba. There are tweaks that make them slightly different, but even then it's the same basic idea.
Once again, I disagree with you on Ghost Face and Myers, I just find Ghost Face as extremely uninspired. Whatever you may think of why he is how he is, to me he is a mesh of two previous characters with a few tweaks and yet again is another Killer who suffers because of it.
Now for the personal ideas. I will admit, those two ideas are very much taking from things already in the game. It's not inherently bad to reuse ideas and resources and implement them differently. My issue is that I feel like this is happening exclusively. As for my ideas I mentioned, they were ones I thought up of immediately as I was making the post and I even acknowledged what they took from. This issue here is that it is that it is actually that simple to take an old mechanic and put a new spin on it, which makes it seem even worse on BHVR's end when they have multiple minds and ample time and they still come up with something this uninspired.
I didn't want to give away too much of my idea here as this isn't really the place for it, but the Obsession-based Killer idea was a Witch Doctor woman who used Voodoo. She would have the option to hit a Survivor with an attack that would do no damage to them, but would allow her to take a piece of their hair and use that with her doll to curse them. This cursed player would suffer certain penalties until the Killer decided to curse another player, in which case they would be freed from the curse. I've already thought of many ways to properly balance it and how players would try to outsmart or work around the mechanic, but once again I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss it.
Also, the Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde idea would incorporate mechanics not yet used in DBD for both forms depending on the main idea I would choose to go with. This would make him play much different from Myers,to the point that you would have to dumb him down much more than I may have on my OP to compare them. The other Killers you listed don't really apply here, as they either debuff the Survivor or have an active skill rather than a passive buff that can be increased. The best one you mentioned is Legion, who temporarily buffs his speed for as long as his power is active.
Since I started this discussion, I'll do well to post my finished ideas in the proper section and then link them here.
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@OinkGirlMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/585100#Comment_585100
The fact that they are not being uncreative. It is just a fact. What more evidence do you want then the fact that they have not been uncreative before?
I just listed in my OP all the ways that show that they are being uninspired and lacking creativity, so it is not a fact that they are lacking or are not lacking in creativity.
It is a topic of discussion, and in your own topic you mentioned a new Killer idea, but why would you do that if BHVR doesn't like creativity and you would want to see them expand more?
Don't get me wrong, I like you idea of heavier illusions than just pallets, but I'm just stating that there is a clear discussion to be had and your own topic reflects this.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
So, do you think Plague came out of nowhere? Or Legion? While Base Legion was truely annoying, it was still a cool concept. Plague is also really creative.
So no, they are not suffering from a lack of creativity.
I already explained how Legion is one of the few with uniqueness in his Power, thought it is a small amount of uniqueness.
Plague is not unique: she uses projectile attacks and has a unique object Survivors can interact with. Fun fact, Freddy will also have a unique item to interact with upon his rework, so I need to add him to that list as well. Also, part of the small tweaks that make Plague who she is limits her potential in being a viable Killer because the Survivors have control over half of her perk. Sure, she has a ranged attack that is easier to hit than Huntress in some cases, but it doesn't deal damage unless the Survivors allow it to do so. This is why Plague is much worse than Huntress, as good Survivors can just not get hit or deal with being sick and still win.
Legion likes to go fast and stab people, the unique part being he can interact with vaults and pallets like a Survivor does when is Power is active. When Legion was first teased at TGA I thought we would be getting a Killer who acted as a Survivor and had to trick Survivors and put their mask on before attacking them, which would then change their model to their Killer model. Needless to say, I was disappointed.
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@Zertix said:
"I'm pretty sure this should be taken to mean more killers who are consistently viable".
Hillbilly is arguably the second strongest killer in the game but still has some counter play. The hag which has the highest kill rate in red ranks is viable but still does not make you feel helpless in a chase. The spirit though is a completely different story.
"Survivors wind up mindgaming me as Spirit a lot, doubling back when I'm phase walking etc."
I think your personal experience with the spirit should not be taken as a basis to asses her strength/potential in a chase. It is like saying I can't 4k when playing omega blink nurse, so she must be fine the way she is.
The problem with the spirit is that the chase turn into coin flipping, but the odds are heavily in the favour of the spirit. Even the shack pallet is no longer the god pallet when going against the spirit.
"Where are all these perfect Spirit players you're encountering who never miss anything?"
I never said that. To tell you the truth, I run into more bad to mediocre spirits than very good spirits. She has a very high skill gap but still this does not change the fact that she has no reliable counter play.
Top-tier Killer players will tell you Billy gets looped too hard and good Survivors will not travel in a straight line to be insta-downed. Nurse and Spirit are the best Killers because of map pressure and movement while being able to avoid being heavily looped.
However, to avoid being heavily looped and be good with the Killer to get to the point where you are complaining about them, that person has to dump a lot of time into getting there. Same can't be said for other Killers who are easily outplayed by Suvivors despite having the same amount of time put into them.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/584805#Comment_584805
So learning nurse to a certain point allows a nurse to win every game. This is balance, in your mind? Because that's how it is right now.
You say that you only lose to a nurse that is better than you are. It's amusing that nurse mains actually believe this. Once a nurse reaches a skill plateau, there is nothing survivors can do. It might as well be a single-player game at that point. It is not fun, nor balanced to have no chance to win.
Continue playing your nurse with the mindset that you have earned free wins because you have learned how to play her. If nurse does eventually get the nerf that is long overdue, it will be satisfying knowing that players like you will have to actually learn how to play killer.
I don't understand people like you. I see good Nurse players lose to good Survivors all the time. Sometimes you just get outplayed, that's how life goes. You can't be perfect every game.
Nurse is the only Killer in the game other than Spirit who actually rewards the player getting good with them. Every other Killer is so weak in one way or another that a Survivor who is good at their role will beat you consistently.
This is why people complain about Nurse and Spirit: they are actually good Killers, and Survivors are used to 'ruling the roost' as it were.
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Care to elaborate and offer counter arguments?
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I'm seeing mostly Killer Perk nerfs and Survivor Perk buffs here.
Killers are supposed to be the Power Role but they aren't: the entire game is dictated by Survivor actions and if they play to win and not to be immersed and the have the skills, any Killer that isn't Nurse or Spirit will get bullied.
If anything, Killer Perks should be buffed or stay the same power and some Survivor Perks should just be game mechanics: rather than making Sabotage be able to have the chance to make eventually all the hooks be gone, make it so that a Survivor can sabotage hooks without needing a perk and that items can boost the speed or make the hook stay broken longer.
Instead of having a perk that lets you heal yourself, make it something a Survivor can just do, but still have the same penalties or maybe increase the penalties. One of the reasons Survivors focus only on gens or looping the Killer is because these are some of the few things they can do without taking certain perks. There are other reasons why, namely that these are the only things that matter in the game, but giving them flat-out more things to do without limiting their perk selection will encourage some players to explore more options.
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There are many different ways that you could fix this, but regardless of how it's done, every Killer needs to feel viable. It's healthy for the game to have more variety.
Right now, the game is not balance in a way that gives every Killer or Perk a use, but since with enough time Survivors are just skins and don't have their perks attached to them, you can play any Survivors and run the best perks. You can run the best perks on any Killer and still suffer because most Killer Perks are balanced around the idea that the Killer has a Power as well. The problem here is that most of the Killers have a Power that is currently not viable.
Some ways to address this are..
~Go through each Killer and buff their Powers on an individual basis, keeping in mind what makes Nurse and Spirit the best Killers and pushing them up to their level.
~Nerf Suvivors indirectly by adjusting how fast gens can be done or by adding a secondary mandatory objective. F13 did this best by having certain Survivors excel at different things, but since DBD doesn't work like that another route must be taken.
~Going through the perks and adjusting them on an individual basis and raising the power of Killer perks with the idea that Survivors are currently the Power Role.
~Doing some major map layout changes that make it so Suvivors don't have nearly as many "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards when a Killer punishes them for making mistakes.
I currently can't think of anything else that would be a way to solve this issue of there only being two truly good Killers.
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Wow this had a lot of discussion as well! Either my posts are controversial or I'm speaking up about things that need to be dealt with according to the community.
So I knew going into this that a mechanic like this would require changes to perks accordingly. The original idea here is to change base gameplay to stop gens from being done so quickly which is a very common complaint, but to do so without implementing a brand new objective.
An example of possible balance is that Thanatophobia would only affect the action bars of whatever actions don't get punished by this new mechanic. For example, if the injured status only slows gen progression, then maybe Thanatophobia affects all other action bars that aren't related to gens, or if the injured status slows everything but healing then Thanatophobia only affects healing. Or perhaps you just lower the percent at all ranks on Thanatophobia and find a middle-ground to where it is still strong but not overpowered and the new injured status stays relevant. Or perhaps you change it to have a token system based on whenever a survivor heals and that when it reaches max tokens it activates a debuff of Killer buff of some sort, as this would help counter the "new" Self-Care meta that would emerge.
An example of balance for No Mither could be that it ignores the new injured status debuff, but then you would have to do information gathering on whether No Mither with perks that buff action bar progression while injured is too good. The trade-off here is that you would ignore the new injured debuff for the ability to be downed so much quicker, but still able to get yourself up from a slugging Killer. Then you have to see if ignoring the new injured status while also buffing your progress while injured vs being downed so easily has a fair balance to it or if it ends up being too good. This is how balance works: you have to get lots of test results and search for the average and make a decision from there.
@Tenshi0108 said:
Then let me tell you either you suck a t being a killer o you dont know how to divide the time you in your hands.Simple as that.
This has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with what I hear higher-ranked players complaining about. I'm just studying what other top-tier players are saying and coming up with ways to possibly fix the situation.
I remember when I came up with the idea to punish campers by making them lose bloodpoints or potential points or have emblem decay with a certain radius from the hook, and most everyone thought it was stupid and kinda flamed me for it. Then BHVR ended up putting it in the game.
I mean it hasn't helped all that much, but the idea was there and it was tried. Now we know that isn't what causes Killers to camp.
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@Paladin_Goo said:
So basically, thanataphobia?
This isn't the way. The fact that you say "survivor mains won't like it" screams bias. I play both (albeit I've been playing much more killer the last year) and I can even tell you this isn't the way to go about combating genrushing.
I also play both, and would be fine with this change.
Nobody does anything but gens, hook saves and healing. Sometimes totem cleansing, but really it's just about the gens. Chests don't matter and sabotage really doesn't matter
Also, no, not Thanataphobia: that hurts all survivors for having an injured survivor and stacks for each one injured. This would be a personal debuff that affects only you.
Though I would say that Thantaphobia might have to have changes depending.
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Wow, I'm glad there has been so much discussion here. Sorry I haven't gotten back to respond to it, busy with stuff.
So it seems the general consensus is that it would affect matchmaking times and that Ranked has no rewards setup.
Well first off I would like to say that DBD definitely has a big enough player base, so that isn't the issue for wait times. The issue is not having dedicated servers. What a lot of people don't understand is that DBD has been relying on P2P connections up until trying to work on dedicated servers which are not officially coming until later this year. This testing and transition has lead to issues similar to the ones DBD already has with broken lobbies and players not getting games. So it's not the player base, but problems with the game (possibly netcode or otherwise) that make wait times so long occasionally.
That said, splitting up players between these modes would in fact reduced the amount of players between these two modes and cause wait times to be worse to some degree, and with the issues the game already has this could end up going poorly. The simple issue to to fix the netcode and server issues first, then implement this system so that casuals can play casuals and competitors can play competitors. Then you would be able to see the actual difference in wait times.
As for Ranked not having rewards...well...most competitive games don't. You get a badge that shows you what your rank is and MAYBE and additional title for getting that high or getting that high with a character and that's it. Basically, you just flaunt that you are that good.
I know for a fact that people grind like crazy and perform the best they can to get to Rank 1 in DBD as fast as they can. That competitive spirit already exists, and thus ranked doesn't really need rewards if it's a separate mode. The only reason it needs rewards now is because everyone is forced to play ranked so you have to reward people who don't want to play ranked and hate going up against 'tryhards' so that they keep playing the game when they feel like they want to quit. If they just separated Ranked and Unranked, they wouldn't need such a system.
SWF isn't really and issue and doesn't need to be separated from Ranked due to the very nature of core gameplay of DBD: you can both get with your pals and have a fun time trying silly stuff and getting spooked, or you can establish your elite team and attempt to take down a Rank 1 Killer who could just as well 4K you all.
Honestly, you shouldn't let possible wait time increase and rewards for ranking stop people from being able to enjoy the game. I promise you that if they did this, the amount of complaints people about not enjoying the game would drop significantly, although you'd likely still have ranked players complaining about stuff that doesn't work. The casual audience who doesn't care about the small stuff though would only complain about crashes and glitches.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/532204#Comment_532204
1) Where did I insult you LOL
2) If you set a release date, you better release. If you don't there will be hell to pay.
3) You are overreacting if you think these MINOR changes constitute content that "isn't ready".
- You were close to using an ad hominem against him when you told him 'good luck getting a job' because you were actively being snarky and bringing up something irrelevant to the conversation.
- Talk to every major game from a AAA game that gets delayed. Spyro Reignited is a good example: they had a release date setup, but they delayed it so that all three games would be on the disc instead of having to download the other two. Just recently the new Animal Crossing game got delayed to March of next year. Guess what? People are over all fine with it because they want a quality product instead of janky garbage. BHVR could stand to learn from this, and they could stand to learn from Fallout 76 and Anthem, which are broken games that were not well tested in their betas and had little to no changes made before release because the companies involved didn't care. Showing gamers you don't care about what they say is a good way to lose money.
- When Ghostface hit the PTB, his power was fundamentally unusable. Since you can customize perks, the Power of the Killer is the foundation of gameplay in that role. This means the very base of Ghostface was majorly flawed to the point of not working. They had to make some sort of change otherwise he was nothing but an "M1 Killer" in the truest of the sense of the term. So they did, and it was a massive improvement, but when you start off a rock bottom you can't go but up. He still wasn't viable and all the experienced players said he was better but still bad. Then they nerf him in ways that people asked AND didn't ask for and announce it on his release? Why not give him another month to test and work out his kinks?
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@WheatThinO said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/303497#Comment_303497
If he was so balanced, why don't they give other killers tools in their kit that will help them all be high tier. It clearly isn't that hard to design a character according to y'all.
Furthermore, good billies will hit you with that saw as soon as they break that pallet you had to use after running that loop for so long. They have insane map pressure, an instadown, and run at normal killer speed. Idk why he runs at normal killer speed. His power is so good, he doesn't need it. Spirit has less map pressure (without add-ons) and she moves at 110, can't see survs, and has the one tool in her kit. Nurse has the one tool as well and its insanely good. But omg, guess what both of them don't have as a part of their kits? Instadowns!!!!!
He should run at 110 movement speed. That's it. That's the only change he needs. Or at least put it on the ptb, give the stupid survivor mains something to be happy about for once.
That's a good question: why DOESN'T BHVR give the other mid-low tier Killers better tools to put them closer to Billy?
Welp, your own post and the OP are proof of why: if a Killer is viable, Survivors whine, and there are always more Survivors than Killers. That is why GF and Plague's power are controlled by the Survivor in terms of reducing effectiveness. It's why GF still won't be amazing even after all his buffs.
They cater to Survivors more because they think that's the way to balance the game, forgetting that Killers play the game to.
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@bendermac said:
Seriously guys, STOP insisting on nerfs for something you rarely encounter. Prayer Beeds aren't used that much. same with Omega Nurse. What's next: Nerf Tombstone Myers?
My Spirit has currently 28 Beeds and I used it only twice in the entire time of game play. same with Moris. I must have like 200 on all Killers, yet I use them very rarely
Yes, these things can be a bit annoying, but taht doesn't warrant a nerf
Just because you personally don't use that add-on a lot doesn't mean others do not.
If people are complaining about it, they must face it a lot.
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@TWiXT said:
Its $36 for all of the licensed DLC, Shape, Freddy, and Pig are all $7, Ash, Ghostface, and Leatherface are $5 each. Everything else can be gained through Shards at 9000 per unlocked character, and you obtain 9000 for every 30 hours of gameplay. So to obtain both the killer and survivor for each of the DLC's you can get with shards that currently comes to 360 hours of gameplay. Say Gamers play for an average of 2 hours a day, that would mean that they would get all of the current characters in 6 months of play, while other less devoted gamers will achieve this in under or about a year. Its a grind for sure, but not so terrible in comparison to other games with grind mechanics that would eat up a year of time while requiring their players to play an average of 4 hours per day to get what they want without spending money (cough "Warframe" cough). On top of that the licensed DLC sets aren't necessary, of them only 1 is a good/decent killer so far (waiting for the final verdict on GF), and their teach-able Perks often pop up in the shrine (aside from BBQ&Chilli) which can also be purchased with shards. Overall, you're looking at just under a year of play to get all of the current DLC characters that can be purchased with shards, and most if not all of their teachables from the shrine.
There's no need to spend $87 for every DLC character, and they also tend to go on sale for around $3-5 during seasonal sale's events. So my suggestion is to wait for a sale if wanting to purchase any of the Licensed DLC characters, and just play regularly to grind for the rest if you don't want to spend any more money on the game.
I'm sorry, what? Six months (or half a year for those that find one way of explaining it more intense than the other) isn't that much of a grind? A year for those we aren't dedicated?
There was a crappy mobile game that I used to play for a bit that had a lot of issues, but the worst one was the grind. You had to collect pieces to upgrade a troop, but the only way to get pieces (outside of a roulette wheel or paying them upwards of $50 or more for their 'bundles') was to set a task for pieces. Every six hours, you would get between two and six pieces, but most often two. Eight to twenty-four pieces a day (if you maximize your time) doesn't seem that bad until I tell you that the best troops that only gave you two to six pieces need either 250, 500, or 1000 pieces to upgrade them. We did the math, and it ended up being nearly a year depending on how many you needed and that was WITH you maximizing your time.
Grinding to get things for free should be an effort, but it shouldn't be such an effort that it takes so much of a person's time for a pitiful reward.
I just recently got to 9k Shards and I was excited because I can get a new Killer, only to remember that the licensed killers require actual money. Still excited, I looked over all my choices and...I still have my 9k shards because I'm not interested in any of the killers.
I may spend my shards if I can find perks in the Shrine worth my time, but honestly I doubt there are any perks that will make the Doctor more viable.
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You guys are totally missing the real issue here.
It's not whether tunneling or gen rushing exists or not, because they do: Killers do in fact focus on one survivor until they are dead and removed from the game and Survivors do focus on nothing but completing generators as fast as possible.
It's whether or not these things are healthy for the game.
I would argue they are not.
Tunneling is unhealthy from both a competitive sense and a casual sense. From a casual sense, it's obvious: someone who just wants to have some fun and maybe a few scares alongside it now doesn't get to play the game. What fun is there in that? When this happens to you for multiple games, it ruins your experience. The competitive side requires looking at it form a different angle, but it exposes the imbalance of viability between Killers.
Take a look at which Killers tunnel the most often. You may notice they are mostly Killers noted to be lower on the ladder. You won't see as many Nurses, Spirits, Billys or Hags tunneling (or camping for that matter) because they are built in such a manner that they can succeed with out it, and look where they are on the Killer Totem Pole. This shows that in terms of competitive balance, Killers with weaker Kits require tunneling as well as other unhealthy methods due to a lack of base effectiveness in their kit.
Gen rushing is also unhealthy from both a competitive sense and casual sense. Once again, casual sense is obvious: if you are a Killer who doesn't care about getting a 4K and just wants to have fun and enjoy the thrill of being a murderous psychopath, suddenly the gates are powered and you barely touched anyone at all. It makes games too short and ruins the experience. From a competitive sense it has the same issue with games being too fast, but the issue is once again from another angle: nothing else matters. If it's not a generator, it's not as important. Chests, healing, looping, sabotaging, taking hits, blinding or stunning the Killer, even unhooking...none of these are as important as getting a generator done. This means the entire playstyle of both the Survivors and the Killer revolves around a single objective. Does a new Survivor Perk make it so you can do gens faster or for longer or help your allies do them faster or for longer, either directly or indirectly? Does a new Killer Power or Perk stop them from doing gens, directly or indirectly?
If so, how effective it is determines how often it will be used.
If not, it gets tossed into the pile of Perks deemed to be useless or the Killer will not be as viable competitively.
Funnily enough, it seems to me that the people who play competitively on both ends seem to accept both sides using these tactics. It doesn't bother them because they too are trying to be competitive and rank high on the ladder. Who it negatively affects are the casual players who just want to have a good time who are suffering by people trying to rank up when seasons reset or after losing hard and de-ranking.
The solution I offer? Making two separate modes and matchmaking for Casual and Competitive. This way competitive players can weed out some of the hate they get as well as consistently getting more engaging matches and casuals can face less players trying to win so hard and enjoy the game more.
Of course this doesn't solve the problem that the game focuses too hard on a single objective and thus has balancing issues because of it, but that is for a thread for another time.
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@Mochan said:
Advice for Hexyl
1. Stop thinking that only "strong" killers like Billy and Nurse are worth playing. This game is supposed to be fun.
2. Play someone else other than Billy. There is nothing wrong with playing killers other than Billy.
3. Fun is the only thing that matters in a game. Tying fun to your desire to win and stomp your enemies is a recipe for saltiness and discontent.
4. If you are going to threaten the Devs do it properly and not in such a passive aggressive fashion.
Advice for Mochan!
- People who play the game competitively will tell you that the only Killers who matter in the higher ranks are Billy, Spirit and Nurse. Thus, from a competitive aspect, they ARE the only ones worth playing. Also, some people enjoy playing games competitively, so stop telling them not to play how they want and how they have fun just because you think you know better.
- Stop telling people how to play the game. When they mention Billy, it's that Billy is a good example of a Killer who is both fun to play casually and viable competitively without being too underpowered or overpowered. Billy is the line in the sand that most Killers should aim to strive for.
- Yes, people play games to have fun, and for some that means doing their absolute best, improving, and winning. This will inevitably lead to games that are less stellar and more upsetting than others, but that is part of the game. STOP telling people how play the game.
- No one is threatening anyone: it was just a clear promise that shows that the devs need to get their act together for new content or the game will die faster than Deathgarden's original release.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/504032#Comment_504032
You can't derank past 15.
Oof...
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@Seanzu said:
Don't play until the 13th :)
Will that drop him from Rank 13 to Rank 18 or so?
I thought Rank Reset only drops you one or two.
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I mainly play Killer so I don't care too much about Survivor.
I just play it causally with friends to have fun.
Thus I am always between Rank 18 and Rank 20.
I barely have any of the good perks for Survivor and those ones I do have are currently not teachable because I haven't invested enough in them because I don't play Survivor.
@[Deleted User] said:
There is a punishment. Smart survivors will gen rush your arse off. Camping killers only have to go against a few teams like this to either learn not to abandon gen pressure, or complain like babies that gen rush is unfair.
My team was doing gens while I got camped. This Hag had Hex: Ruin. Because this was an under-10 Rank game she was able to camp me to guarantee the kill while also delaying gen work through the Hex.
I guess the real issue here is that competitive play is mixed with casual play, meaning that people who play for the thrill and to have a good time with friends suffer at the hands of people who REALLY want to get to Rank 1 even though you don't really get anything for it other than 'being the best.'
Hence the need for Ranked to be a separate mode.
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@CallMeSpidey said:
Your down votes astonish me.
I'd feel better knowing they won't get anything if they camp the hook. A major loss for BP.
It's fine, the reason they do this is because they just accept it. They accept the fact that some Killers like to camp and take the fun out of the game instead of looking for alternative ways to fix the problem.
If the problem is that Killers do it to guarantee a kill and points do not matter, than the new approach would be to find out why Killers want to guarantee a kill so badly.
If it's to rank up then that means that they are competitive and if this seems to be the underline motive then they should take the approach that has been asked for multiple times, which is to separate competitive and casual players.
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@ReikoMori said:
The dev team and us players have tested many anti camping measures. The results were as follows
We tested making times not count down and count down lower: Survivors developed a strategy to keep killers around the hook so they had near infinite time to make the save.
We tested bp loss and it didn't really work. We tested emblem score loss and it didn't really work either, but was a better idea than anything so that made it in. Recently increased the amount of emblem decay you get to the chaser emblem when camping and made the distance where your counted as camping like 16m big.
As you can see there is still camping. The devs aren't too keen on doing much else as while it is unfun it isn't an exploit and the game is designed with scenarios where camping is actually the optimal answer despite the emblem decay. People complain of facecamping still, but the actual action face camping is impossible as the hook was changed to swivel around when survivors are unhooking from an angle.
Fair enough, I know game balance isn't easy, it's just unfun when every day you get a game where someone is either camping or working with the killer or exploiting glitchs. I get that there is only so much you can do, but when the same two people (my friend and I) run into this stuff consistently out of everyone playing, that would incline there are a lot of people doing it to the point that it is rampant. That or we are just that unlucky, who knows.
Regardless I never enjoyed Survivor that much anyway but we may just have to stick to being fun-having killers who don't care if we 4K or not and leave Survivor alone.
Just sucks because you can't play together otherwise.
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Ahh, I play on PS4, so no such thing as comments.
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@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Even if you would punish camping killers with losing ALL points, they still would do it cuz they don't care about points. They care more about that kill.
Right but...if they get nothing from the kill if they camp, then why camp?
I get trying to win, but if you get nothing from it, why try so hard?
Is it a ranked thing? Because if it is, that still brings up the need for Ranked to be a separate mode.
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Woof, my first contribution to this website after hours of discussion with other players who play both survivor and Killer, and this is what I get: a couple of constructive posts and a slog of useless comments that think that balancing is impossible just because it hasn't been done properly before. I'm honestly a bit surprised at this reaction, seeing as camping is clearly a big issue in this game and sucks the fun out of it for everyone.
@Bravo0413 said:
Cuz the entity would punish the killer for doing their job.... yup this sounds like it goes with the lore :chuffed: ... since the update theres frames on the person being unhooked, BT is still a great perk to use, SWF...... oh SWF..... and SWF "shrugs" survivors have all the tools to combat any situation that comes infront of them... if its solo play... do gens dont give the killer the time of day...So actually, I disagree with this: The Entity wants people to be sacrificed, right? So if the Killer is standing there waiting for the Entity to slowly tease it's prey before taking them away, what is the Killer not doing? Sacrificing survivors...which is his job. The idea we came up with is that The Entity is actually upset with the Killer for essentially standing around and doing nothing when they are supposed to be getting them sacrifices. Also, perhaps the Entity likes to dine/play alone? Dinner for one, please!
Also, I'm hearing that camping is part of the game...newflash, it's not: it's abusing the game's mechanics. Trapper can leave traps so he can leave the hooked survivor and come back if someone gets trapped, Hag can do the same, and taking a look at all the Killer Perks not a single one rewards you for standing there but in fact most of them give encouragement for you to go off and hunt down the other survivors now that you have some sort of bonus from hooking one of them...but having one survivor dead is worth more than anything a perk can give you.
Let me give you a personal example: I currently play mainly the Doctor as I perform best with him. Before I got as good as I am now, I was losing games because I play this game as a Horror Film Simulator...you know, playing the game for what it is, so I played to have fun and would hook someone and run off to find others. Low and behold, people REALLY want to win in this game despite the game not really rewarding you for doing so, so I had a rut in which all four survivors were getting away and I was getting mad because I couldn't enjoy myself as I had hit that rank where survivors are armed to the teeth and ready to win. So I did that horrible act: in the next game, I focused on one person and hooked them and stood there until they died. That person lasted as long as they could, and their team managed to get three generators done in that time. Guess what happened after that? I slaughtered them all, and now that I have gotten better I can do that without fully camping them and actually leave for a moment to kick a gen and come back and find them after they have been saved.
My argument here is that when everyone says 'Just ignore them and do gens' you are not only saying 'just accept this abuse of gameplay mechanics and do nothing about it' but you are also saying 'forget about ever rescuing a fellow survivor'...when that is a huge gameplay mechanic...AND your line of thought doesn't even net you a big enough advantage. When a Killer camps one survivor and forces them to die, on average the survivors seem to get between 2-3 gens done in that time (for the sake of the argument let's say they get three done). Now that you are down an ally, everything points to the Killer's advantage:
-The have one less survivor to worry about tracking, hooking, doing gens, finding hexs, and helping out their allies.
-They now have less gens to patrol, making it easier to come up with a strong gen pathing and constantly punish the remaining survivors.
-They get rewarded with Bloodpoints at the end for sacrificing that survivor, regardless of how the rest of the game goes. In fact, this one kill often nets them as much (sometimes more) as the survivors end-game when the other three successfully escaped, and that is without using a BP booster.See, you working gens actually doesn't reward you enough as a survivor in this situation because you lose out on literally everything that fourth survivor could have offered you AND it's easier for the Killer to find you and halt your progress. Add on perks that have anything to do with gens and the Killer is making it a nightmare to get anything done that you might as well resort to just one of you getting away...which happens to me a lot. Seriously, with Doctor and Overcharge, I've had matches go on so long because I'll focus on keeping gens as low as possible and go after survivors only when they are really close to easily punish that games go on 20-45 mins and the survivors give up and either I kill them all or one found the hatch and the other distracts me so they can use it after they die. Anyone I chat with when I play Killer can tell you that when I play Doctor and the game loads, the first thing I say is 'Okay, no matter how many gens get done, I need to focus down and kill one of them.'
@Mister_xD said:
or (as i say in every single one of these posts) YOU REWARD KILLERS FOR NOT CAMPING instead of punishing them for camping. there. problem solved, everyone is happy.im legit so annoyed by all these posts .-.
But that hasn't worked so far: there are plenty of perks that encourage them to not camp and go after other survivors, but it doesn't matter because guaranteeing that one survivor death rewards them much more and hurts survivors much more than any perk can possibly accomplish. I'm seeing a lot of this where you guys are saying that camping isn't good enough to nerf, but it is: the killer gets rewarded more than the surivivors, and I listed the reasons why.
@George_Soros said:
@ForsakenM Nonsense. Camping is part of the game. As it's been said a million times by a million players. 99% of the time camping first hook is a bad strategy anyway. Also, your proposition mostly ignores the not-so-rare event when the other three survivors just swarm the hooked guy instead of doing gens. I know you addressed this partially by pausing timer while in a chase, but that does not necessarily happen every time when other survs hookrush.
Do the math: ok, being camped is not fun, I agree there. But. That's one person not having fun, and three others who can actually do something productive, pop 3-4 gens, and completely screw the killer who is facecamping: in short, possibly having a good game. The other issue is that often when exit gates are powered or already opened, and there's still four survs, one of them hooked, then the prudent course of action is usually to camp the one who is hooked.If the game were designed in a way that rewards camping, then it would be boring for killer and frustrating for survivors. But it is not the case. There are PLENTY of mechanics built in to prevent camping from becoming a winning strategy, also there's a significant difference in BP gains, in favor of less camping. Same goes for tunneling btw (just think of BBQ, that's clearly designed against tunneling). Do you think adding more elements that discourage camping would keep that small number of hard camping killers from playing their way? I doubt it. Your suggestion would punish good players too whenever they camp, and that would be unfair. Because as a killer, sometimes camping is necessary.
Waited to post my comment because I saw this post. Now I will admit, I'm not as experienced at this game as some other people, but a lot of the people I play with have been playing this game before it was free on PSPlus, so I'm learning a bit quicker than I may have otherwise. More importantly, let me address your arguments.
- As I said before, camping is not 'part of the game': it is an abuse of gameplay features, but nowhere in this game is it said that you have to camp, and many parts of the game encourage you to not camp. People camp because they want to win as the Killer and camping nigh-guarantees you a dead survivor, making it easier for the Killer, harder for the survivors, and getting your hands on BP no matter how the game goes from there.
- Camping is not fun for anyone. The Killer has to do it to significantly increase his chances of winning, but the act of camping itself is boring because you just sit there and stop playing the game until they die or someone tries to save them. It's not fun for the other survivors because there is honestly little they can do to prevent it without taking major risks that are ultimately not worth it, and losing that survivor puts them at a huge disadvantage regardless of how much progress they make in the meantime. I can't tell you how many times I've heard other survivors complain about camping when they are not the ones on the hook. Clearly, it's not fun for the camped survivor either.
- I am a bit familiar with the hookrush strategy, and I agree that it can potentially save a survivor and minimize negatives to the other survivors, but there are many things in the Killer's favor if they try this: perks, add-ons, Exposed or anything that works like Exposed (Hillbilly and Cannibal say hi), Trapper and Hag traps, Clown AoE...I'm sure there is more that I don't know about. Also, while there is no specific perk that rewards camping itself Dying Light does heavily reward a Killer for guaranteeing the death of the Obsession as soon as possible and could be stacked with other perks to make a 'Camping Perk Set' that helps you successfully kill that one survivor. Decreased attack recovery, maybe even Fire Up, and now you have a kit that can potentially punish the survivors no matter how the decide to react to your camping. Best case scenario for a hookrush: Two survivors get injured, hooked survivor gets unhooked, and you all somehow lose the killer without any other repercussions. I'm sure we all know how unlikely that is, as it's much more likely that someone else will get downed during the rescue, and that could easily be the previously hooked survivor which would practically damn them to their fate.
- You brought up a good point about the Exit Gates. With my idea, I think that once all the generators are done, the timer would no longer activate if a Killer camps someone mainly because, as you said, it's the only way to get a kill at this point due to a lack of survivor objectives.
- Look at my previous arguments for why the Killer gains more than the survivors do when they camp, and that the previous attempts to fix camping or encourage doing non-camping activities hasn't worked. Also, more people camp than you give credit to, as player run into them regularly.