Closing Thoughts on 2v8
As I don't think I'm likely to move to any of the other forums, and absolutely love 2v8, want to give some final feedback on it. I've played about 175 survivor games of 2v8 in the last iteration, which I know quite a few people here eclipse, but I'm doing my part to lower those killer queue times.
What's the unsolvable problem? - 1v4 we talk about soloq vs 4 person SWFs. Well 2v8 doubles that. Are we discussing killers in close coordination, survivors on comms, some mix of the above, none of the above? I think the game is sided KWF > Survivor > killers alone, but the latter two are much closer to balanced than the regular 1v4 game (how many survivors have to SWF to make it lopsided is a tricky question. I played in an 8 person and it felt unfair, but a 2 person doesn't seem to yield many advantages). I don't know how to maintain any type of balance in such a system outside just ignoring the outliers, so good luck BHVR.
What I Like About It - I initially expected to hate 2v8, but now vastly prefer it. The following is completely subjective, but I think the class system is a better game. I've always been surprised by how people relate 'sweaty' with 'serious game'. To me if the survivors all bring 4 BNPs gen rush or the killer plays a super S Tier on a huge win streak, its far more absurd than serious. 2v8 though takes out a lot of the extreme stuff and, again subjective, I think that makes a better game.
What I think they should do - the main issue remains, how to get people to play more survivor? Well, I already play a lot of 2v8 survivor, but here's what I think they could do to make it better while retaining what makes it work.
Survivor Class Variety - Talking about new classes happens a lot, but I think at max there might be 8 types, and that would be pushing it (the boon class is the obvious, Invoker is another possibility, I could also see a class that yields lots of chest based mechanics). But I think if we get too many classes it will ruin a core part of 2v8, that is the survivors can actually predict each other in solo unlike the craziness of a gazillion perks in 1v4 that you don't know until match start.
Instead, I think they should add class variety. Keep the core identity of the class (i.e. what it does well), just vary it up. A Guide class with something like Repressed Alliance instead of Blast Mine is a pretty clear example. If each class had a few different "builds", I think it would do a lot to keep the survivor side fresh.
Gen Regression and Catch Up Mechanic - Another thing people have been complaining about for a long time is that the catch up is based on hooks, when deaths is the far more relevant stat. It feels strange as survivor when the killersare excellent, but have two hooked everyone and so gens are flying, or where the killers were bad, but they tunneled someone, so gens are at a crawl and the killers have massive pressure.
My suggestion - slightly decrease the bonus survivors get from hooks or increase the slowdown from completed gens. However, significantly reduce the gen regression speed every time a survivor is killed. Right now if it gets down to ~four survivors it can feel impossible to move gens forward and people just start hiding. If gen regression was reduced per death it would discourage tunneling and encourage gameplay in the 2v~4 which would make the survivor experience much more appealing.
Starting Items - I don't think this is the way to go. I get it that the shortcut to 'we need survivors to play' is 'make them stronger' but it really needs to be 'make them more interesting'. Chests actually served a purpose in 2v8, as a frequent medic I wanted a medkit so I could easily heal myself after a burst heal, now I just have it (which, to be clear, is stronger, but boring, it reduces gameplay and decision making). A toolbox for the Guide is just - that thing you do, you do better. At least the fog vial and key for Escapist and Scout add more options on what to do.
Instead, what about making it so certain classes are more likely to find certain items? You could even throw in finding addons/upgraded rarity to make the chests more useful and interesting.
Salts - Remove them from the game. To be clear how bad I think they are, I found more success hiding the salts from my team instead of deploying them.
This seems to be a problem with BHVR design ever since the idea of invocations came around. Taking survivors out of the gameplay loop is a massive disadvantage that BHVR doesn't seem to fully grasp. It's not just sacrificing objective (gen) progress, but this is making other survivors less able to do things like gens because they have to rescue/be chased/heal. Lots of things in DbD operate on a risk/reward metric, these mechanics however operate on a guaranteed loss for possible reward, which is why they are so bad.
5% haste also isn't very interesting. It is statistically powerful, but doesn't really feel like much is different in a single game. Add on to this the killer can just ignore you really removes all the value.
If salts were to stay in, they should either A) give a permanent effect or B) give a team based effect or C) be something far more unique. If it made your aura unreadable for a period of time that would be interesting because it would open up new gameplay (stealth), though it does increase the chance of ratting.
Oh, I literally almost forgot they open up the class's after hook ability. This used to be a neat aspect of 2v8, but has basically died off as being a game changing aspect (which is sad, I really liked the ideas of survivors growing stronger as they got closer to death and wish more was done with the idea).
Killer Classes - this is my most 'not a chance BHVR would do this' idea, but here goes. Killer's shouldn't have the same four classes, or classes at all. Each killer should instead have like three or four variations unique to them. Please don't make this something 'sweaty' like I mentioned earlier, but variations that are all of roughly equal strength. Just port over some of the more common builds to the killers and there you go.
Stop Downtalking 2v8 - please stop referring to 2v8 as the casual or non-serious mode BHVR. Some of us care far more about it than 1v4.
Best survivor team - just as a subject of discussion that isn't feedback, presuming all soloq, what's the ideal survivor lineup? I think its 1 escapist, 3 Guides, 3 Medics, 2 Scouts, 0 Torchbearers. If one player is really good at saves, losing a guide or Medic to be the torchbearer is worthwhile to gain someone to keep the killers occupied. I think anything more than two escapists is a waste, 4 guides/medics/or Scouts I think lose power, but are pretty fun for just very different gameplay.
Comments
Gotta ask, why would Guides be worthwhile at all? They do literally nothing besides lol blastmine. Ideally you'd have 3 escapists, 3 scouts, and 2 medics. Escapists are extremely good at wasting killers time and getting saves. Scouts are needed for pallets in the late game and having 3 is plenty, while medics can theoretically be broken from their aoe heal in a chase this would require a swf to be realistically strong since you just aren't going to have that level of coordination in soloq. Still their increased healing speed makes them great for saves.
Also yeah Torchbearers need massive buffs if I see more than one in the lobby I'll typically dodge just because of how awful they are.
I personally loved the item addition. It's what made me play more survivor this time around. Theoretically it should reduce all the time wasted opening chests. Unfortunately they dropped the stupid salts at the same time, so that messed up that possibility. I also hid them from my team. People would chase me around the map when I had them so I just sat on gens with them until they gave up. They were such a horrible menace. I agree the effect should be global. I was shocked when it turned out not to be.
As for team lineup, I like there to be a mix, and I think Guide and Scout are both under appreciated. I played almost all Scout this time and fell in love with the role. I had several 8 stacks where we did 4 Guides and 4 Scouts and that was both hilarious and highly effective. Four Medic doubling up and 2 Escapists was also great. Much like 1v4, the fun is in the SWFing.
The short answer on Guides is process of elimination. The medium length answer is that the other classes tend to take away from each other in a way the Guide doesn't. The long answer follows by working through the classes:
Medics - I think medics are the most important class, not having any is very bad for the team. 2 is the minimum, 3 is ideal as it gives a good map spread and makes the double burst insta heal more realistic to pull of. I think 4 is unnecessary and now medics are just running into each other doing heals instead of other important objectives.
So for medics I think there should be 2 to 3, with 3 being ideal.
Escapists - I really don't think they are that good, though two points on how I play.
1: I've never been a windows player, so I don't find it particularly changes much.
2: As killer, I don't chase the escapists. I just ignore them and focus on the classes that can actually do things. So the 'waste killer time' point only works if the killer falls for it.
The more general point is that sprint burst can't stack. If you have multiple escapists in the same area they aren't helping each other. One is plenty, two is possible but I don't think worthwhile, and the games I played were no one was escapist was some of the stronger survivor teams.
Additionally, because I believe in a lot of medics, this really tunes down the value of the self-heal that they get. If you have few medics the value of being the escapist jumps.
So 1 escapist, with zero or two being okay.
Scouts - These are a strong role, but the pallet rebuild has two issues.
1: Its strength is subjective to the killer duo that is faced on how much pallets work against them
2: Time commitment
Usually the ideal pallet(s) to rebuild are a little out of the way, meaning the Scout has to take time from doing the other tasks (gens/rescues/heals) to go rebuild.
Then you have the issues of the starting keys. Scouts should be opening all the chests they find, basically for toolboxes so other survivors can speed through gens (though a backup medkit or something else isn't a bad thing either). Anymore than two scouts though and this just becomes unnecessary as the Scouts will likely find more keys while opening chests.
In my experience I think the strongest part of Scout is being the time waster in chases. They are less obvious to killers, and the lingering aura read makes them strong loopers.
Thus I think at least one Scout is necessary, two is better, three is okay but not as strong. It is pretty funny though to be in a game with a lot of Scouts and just having infinite pallets.
Guides - So by process of elimination, we've now used up somewhere between 4 and 6 of the possible 8 slots we have, leaving Guides as the remaining. However, even beyond process of elimination, I think Guides are a strong role that stacks really well.
First, on its own, giving how much harder it is tracking gens, it can be useful to spot a gen near the end game that others might be overlooking. This can literally be the difference between an easy trial and the survivors throwing themselves against a pair of defending killers.
Second, the aura read it provides to other survivors is really important as in 2v8 vs 1v4 pairing up on gens is the better tactic given how strong gen regression can be.
Third, I think Blast Mine is pretty great for a few reasons. One, it provides the time waster/get away from gens in much the same way as an Escapist. Two, it breaks up the flow of killers who are working together as one gets stunned. Three, if you have a lot of Guides, killers have to start thinking over whether they want to kick a gen or not. This can be useful as it now allows survivors to stealth near a gen instead of just running away and might keep gens that aren't even blast mined safe. Fourth, it provides the Guide info, if they go do something else (likely a save) and the blast mine goes off, they now have info on a killer's location.
Fourth overall reason, they get their power from doing what they are supposed to be doing. The escapist is reliant upon the killer chasing them, the Scout has to trade off other objective time for rebuild, the Guide recovers their power while doing the thing they are meant to do (kind of like the medic).
Fifth, the toolboxes they have now are not a huge change, but can make the difference between popping an early critical gen and finishing the last gen of the game.
I still think about what happened to that Blight…
He deserved it.
I think 1v4 is the superior mode, because BHVR does not want to adress the main issue of 2v8. Two killers chasing you means you get down in a very short timeframe. Always.
I have come to accept and embrace that fact and just do my archives in this mode. Wait i can't even really do that starting next year. Welp.
I like the fact that we start with an item now too, even if my own favoured class has an item I only use to find something more useful or fun as quickly as possible. I feel like BHVR gave the Scouts keys because they saw in their stats how many chests I used to waste time opening in all the previous 2V8s (surely Escapists should be the ones with a key and Scouts should be given a Fog Vial?). I don't know why, but it was always the Scouts that were raiding chests in 2V8. Maybe because the other classes have abilities that do what items do and the Scouts don't.
Anyway, I'm still opening a lot of chests and ignoring all those maps/toolboxes/keys and salts, but at least I'm not spending half the game doing it anymore.
I think the 'feel' reason for scouts having the key is to use the aura reading property to see the other survivors (which makes sense for a scout having perception). But in gameplay it is certainly far better and more interesting to open chests.
Of all the items I think the map would have been the best one to give Scouts, tbh (even if I don't like them). Obviously fits their theme. Plus, being able to show gen locations to teammates would be pretty useful near end game when gen progress often seems to slow quite a bit.
I'm traditionally a Guide player but I went Scout this time around specifically to farm keys for my destitute main. I ended up liking the role more than I thought. I'm pretty much going to play whatever has items I want moving forward as long as you continue to get to keep them, and I'd hope they don't change that because it's a big incentive for those of us with poverty-stricken mains.
these are the kind of long form posts I like to read while sipping my morning coffee
Counterpoint, healing is far less important from medics thanks to blue tonics and with the addition of survivors starting with items creating a plethora of medkits from chests. Also there's the simple fact that you aren't going to be able to get a double heal burst off with no communication, I'm sorry but that just is not happening with no communication in the game. So while yes in a vacuum three medics are good, in solo q reality they simply aren't that vital compared to escapist and scout.
Escapists are good for the reason you've stated. You don't chase them meaning you aren't pressuring vital gens because you instantly give up chase or need the other killer to support your lack of chase ability. This means that survivors are able to get free gens done with no risk. Having three people that are cranking out gens because the killers won't touch them means that gens will be flying and since scouts are the stealthy class who can more easily avoid chases you are forced between trying to find a bunch of hidden people or waste time with escapists and commit to them. You also are vitally forgetting their unlock ability. Self heal at 70% is extremely fast and importantly does not need another survivor to waste time on you. In fact it's more efficient to not have another person healing you.
Scouts meanwhile like you said is bad to run across the map to reset a pallet but if you have three then odds are one of them will be in the area and can easily reset a pallet. Furthermore a lot of killers can and will eat through pallets, but also survivors who don't greed pallets and just use them all will burn through a lot but also stay up forever unless chased by both killers. I can count on one hand the number of times I get downed by a killer solo in this game mode. (Excluding nurse because nurse ######### sucks) Scouts let survivors play like this the whole match.
Now lets break down some of your reasons for guide.
Finding gens is not important due to scout. They open up chests a lot and you'll find a few maps that can cover that easily so that's a moot point. The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.
Third blast mine while annoying is just a few seconds and you need to pray that the killers will kick the gen at the right time, something you have no control over and likewise does nothing at the very end of the game where escapists, scouts, and medics all have abilities that can result in otherwise impossible saves happening. In the event both killers are together like you said then the survivors already won. Killers who stay together the whole match will lose assuming the survivors aren't throwing simply because they can't apply pressure properly and in such a scenario the escapist class gets even more powerful due to being able to juke both killers easily.
Fourth… I guess that's valid? I can't argue against the fact you need to do gens to escape but I'll counter with escapists and scouts are well suited for playing for hatch in the event things go south where as medics and guides are in a much tougher spot relying far more on luck.
Fifth, I'd argue it's more of a detriment popping an early gen faster. It's better having people work on a wider amount of gens at the same time simply because it means the slowdown does not proc until the gens done. A lot of people like you said waste their toolboxes mindlessly on the first gen applying a harsher slowdown that will slow the game down.
In short guide is not good for a variety of reasons and I would argue that it's on par with lightbringer in the value they bring.
I have managed to do the double heal with a random other medic multiple times, all it takes is two players that know it's possible and paying attention to who the other medics are. Obviously it is easier on comms and a major reason my duo and I were usually both running medic.
@topic
I found the items to be fine but definately the most boring thing they could have done. I do really dislike the salts and how they and the items made chests so much less useful. My personal desire for a survivor class is something that interacts with protection hits.
On team setup I would go 2 guide, 3 medic, 3 scout, with maybe dropping a medic for a fourth scout. Medics I don't feel need a major explanation, faster heals, aoe heal, no scratches, all just good.
I think guides are good for two things. The first is finding and bringing other survivors to the important gens to complete, early these will usually be around the middle and later it's finding out of the way gens. The second is using blastmine on these important generators to allow survivors to get away and not chase around them, better to give the killer aura and have them commit to a chase in a bad area. Two seems like it's enough to accomplish this and the rest of their powers don't feel strong enough to warrant more.
Lots of scouts because pallets get broken quite quickly and not every map actually has a ton of them. RPD in particular has a decent number of god pallets but not a ton of pallets overall and only a couple good windows. This map feels killer sided in 2v8 unless the survivor team is regularly rebuilding pallets, RPD with a lot of scouts becomes survivor sided in my opinion. The regular aura read also means you have a better idea how safe it is to stick a gen. On top of all that, the fixated and iron will can be excellent in chase especially alongside the lingering aura read
I think escapist is simultaneous frustrating to face but wildly overrated. A decent number of killer powers can fairly easily outplay the SB and as has already been mentioned the killer can ignore these survivors. The best use for escapist is saves but that usually means they need to trade a flashlight with a torchbearer (at which point you have arguably the worst class on your team) or you need to find one in a chest. I can still see one being useful for the occasional SB chase intervention.
Escapists can also just go to one of the many chests that scouts open. In my duo they easily get me a flashlight most matches and I can reliably get 4~5 saves a match because of it. Normally ends up with the killers sticking together like glue but that again just means we win.
Also you kinda glossed over the fact that the maps scouts will get from chests negates the main strength of guide.
Tonics - its a luck based element, not one I ever really built strategy around. More like 'oh, hey, we don't have to heal', but I have plenty of games where the killers seem to find all the tonics first.
Escapists - Pressuring gens, maybe. You can get the same thing with Guide blast mining gens as well, without the worry of the few killers who make the escapists ability not as worthwhile. I certainly think a team could go that route, it just doesn't seem as ideal to me.
Not really forgetting about the self heal, I mentioned it, but I get it was a long post (
Additionally, because I believe in a lot of medics, this really tunes down the value of the self-heal that they get. If you have few medics the value of being the escapist jumps.). I think Escapist/Medic work against each other, the more you have of one the less you need of the other. I find the medic burst heal/fast healing speed to be more useful, because it also allows them to heal up the Guides/Scouts, but again its a trade off.Finding gens is not important due to scout. They open up chests a lot and you'll find a few maps that can cover that easily so that's a moot point. The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.1: I feel like Scouts have more useful items to pick up while the Guide always has the gen read.
2: The map doesn't point out the four closest gens which isn't as critical as 1v4, but can still be pretty important.
3: It's not finding gens for most of the game that's the most important part, that's easy outside which critical gens to hit. It's the latter game where a gen might be overlooked. A map user wouldn't really have any reason to activate the map, while a Guide will just see it for free.
The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.Third blast mine while annoying is just a few seconds and you need to pray that the killers will kick the gen at the right time,These sentences kind of work against each other, are we going off anticipating how killers will play or not?
Anyway, I think a few seconds is a pretty substantial impact, especially with multiple triggers in a round. The game (1v4 or 2v8) is all about buying as much time occupying the killer while the survivors do other things. Its free time that the whole team gained.
likewise does nothing at the very end of the gameBlast mine doesn't, but the Guide does open gates faster. Having one still left if gates pop and its a 2v5 or less can be pretty helpful.
In the event both killers are together like you said then the survivors alreadywon.Killers who stay together the whole matchWell I didn't say the whole match, which would be horrible for the killers. However, there will be times were the survivors will get cornered (especially like a map on RPG), or just the killers end up meeting as they rotate around the map and capitalize on working together for a brief window.
Fifth, I'd argue it's more of a detriment popping an early gen faster. It's better having people work on a wider amount of gens at the same time simply because it means the slowdown does not proc until the gens doneI disagree. Survivors definitely want to spread out early, but I think its better to pair up on gens. One getting them done so they aren't prey to gen regression, two if someone has to leave for a save the other can finish the gen.
Also, while map dependent, some maps have really critical gens that if popped off the start make the game much, much easier for the survivors.
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Also, the other post, going off the idea of the Escapist become the flashlight user, its a good strategy, but again you don't really need anymore than one player doing that for it to be effective.
You are treating something rng based, chests, as a sure fire thing. If you manage to get four or five flashy saves those killers were not going to be winning with or without the saves. Better killers don't get flashy saved against that often, especially not in a single match.
You are unlikely to get a map from chests via scout, the key guarantees a rare or greater item and so does the subsequent rummage. That leaves just the singular possibility of the annotated map and I've literally never seen one in a chest to the point I suspect they are bugged to not appear, you are far more likely to get a rare+ medkit, toolbox, flashlight, or key than a map.
You know, I had been wondering why maps seemed so incredibly rare to come across despite playing a lot of Scout, didn't actually think about it. Thanks for laying it out.
This is honestly such a cool thing to read! I'm glad to hear you like the change, but the fact that it's also helped guide (heh) which class you use is great feedback in and of itself. I'll be sure to share this with the team :)
Okay and you are treating something rng based (everyone being extremely dumb and not knowing where gens are) as a sure fire thing. Like I know we all love to joke about soloq teammates drinking lead paint or whatever but everyone whose played this game for more than a couple of hours will understand gen layout.
You already assumed the killers are dumb, again you won't be getting consistent saves against decent killers.
The other difference is you want to exacerbate the rng by requiring finding both maps and a flashlight from chests. On the other hand, guides decrease rng by taking those dumb players and getting them to the gens that need to get done and even a good player won't always keep track of where every generator gets completed over the course of the match. Having someone aware of the closest together gens also makes the survivors far less likely to 6 gen once again making the layout rng work for them instead of against them (a 6 gen won me a decent number of killer matches I should not have won and would not have won if the six gen hadn't happened).