Survivors get "constantly" nerfed
I want to start this thread because I have seen this a lot in arguments about the new changes, and my question to you is this:
When was the last time, besides this future patch, survivors got nerfed? Fast Track got side graded and was blatantly OP for swfs. Besides that's one "nerf"(side grade) constantly implies multiple nerfs, which I don't remember any from this year.
Had to edit because it's two am and I misspelled things.
Comments
Be for real, Fast Track was a hard nerf. It's worse than it was before the rework. It was better off left alone. Cross Examination was the most recent so-called "broken" perk to be instanuked. The anti tunnel ptb was an extremely colossal waste of time and expectations, and the one thing that came of it is also being nerfed. Fog Vials were destroyed and weren't even impressive on launch, and are still pretty bad even after waiting many months for adjustments.
Fog Vials didn't need to be gutted, I agree, but first off, that happened eleven months ago, and cross-examination allowed you to escape chases if you looped and you won the mind game. I would know I used it, although I guess that does count as a nerf; however, Fast Track was side grade because it's less abuseable in SWFs and better in solo q.
Everything is potentially "abusable" in SWF. That's not really a reason to destroy everything. There are only so many high-performing 4mans out there. I'll never understand why it's called abusive when survivors optimize something but it's strategy when killers hard tunnel at 5 gens.
And it's really not a side grade even if that's what they called it. You used to just sit on a gen and get instantly rewarded for someone else getting hooked. You now have to get off your gen and perform an action to get the reward, which gives it the Deli problem of getting to the hook first to get value. I've seen almost no one run it since the rework. Even before the buff I did at least see it here and there. Now it's gone.
The fact that Cross Examination actually did something isn't a reason to nerf it. I didn't try it but I did play against it quite a bit and it was a non issue for me, even in indoor maps playing a 4.4.
Tunneling just bring DS, works great even if they're not tunneling. Plus tunneling is a strategy not a perk, and is countered by perks.
Also, unhooking is required to not let your team die? So a perk tied to it gives you bonuses for doing a thing you are meant to do.
And cross was a problem if you want; I can link video compilations of me escaping chases with it.
Also look at Jason; his add-ons got gutted for no reason besides crying from survivors. I play 50/50 and can tell you he was easy to counter, take chase and avoid projectile and zoning every killer can do that but Jason can't?
Every time killer hits you with cross examination you just get elusive for 5 seconds + the speed from the injure and it's hard to track the survivor after that, I rely on listening to survivors a lot and that's one skillful part of killer like in chases listening to grunts of pain when there's tall walls so you can't see ethe survivor you can track them with sound while looping but cross examination just gave permanent elusive, the design is just flawed imo and it needs a full rework to be a good perk but not broken.
A few issues with how you set this up
1: Constantly - people talk more about severity than frequency, BHVR doesn't do updates that frequently, especially with the new way they are approaching mid chapters
2: Fast Track Side grade - seriously, how is that a side grade?
3: Nerfs being deserved - lots of things in the game may or may not be deserved, that has nothing to do with whether one side is bearing the brunt of it.
A year and a half ago when the quality of life was announced, survivors were told that BHVR understood not enough attention had been paid to their side. Instead since 9.2 which was when so many issues on the survivor were supposed to be addressed, they've lost anti-hemorrhage syringe (not a side grade or a buff despite some absurd claims), Styptic Agent was outright murdered, Conviction nerfed, OTR nerfed, Hope nerfed, and killer aura read on keys just gone. You also have things like Fast Track getting buffed, then nerfed, and the planned increase of unhook protection getting removed as well. Survivors lost quite a few of their strongest things, are going to lose more, and this all came after a promise to address the biggest complaints.
Some of the things above should have been changed. Some absolutely deserve what they got, some didn't, and some where done poorly, but its been a a massive change from the directions survivors were being told the direction of the game was going, which really leads to the feeling that survivors are just getting kicked around by the devs.
Everything is potentially abusable by Nurse too, but killers can't have strong perks because they would be OP on her. Only difference is that there's at least a 2 man SWF in 50% of games, vs a 3% nurse pick rate. DBD is incredibly challenging to balance.
So the survivor needs to bring a perk to slow something base kit. Keep in mind that if survivors run something enmass people complain (DS has already been complained about many times and look at SB now) and how this doesn't stop tunneling, only delaying it by who knows how much. It doesn't counter it, especially on its own and, this is where i have a major problem with your comment:
it does not work well if the killer does not tunnel.
So do you know what the Deli problem (or part of it anyway) is? If you run deliverance you must get a safe unhook before you get hooked. This means that particular survivor needs to do their absolute damnest to not get found and hooked before someone else (lethal pursuer + luck = SoL…and thats one version), you need to get to that unhook without being seen/caught first which is the important bit as your likely going to have to race to that unhook to make sure no one else gets it before you do, otherwise you have to wait till someones hooked again to even try to activate it, all the while hoping your not next on the chopping block.
Fast track now has that similar problem if less extreme. If your chased and caught before you can unhook, no value till the next persons hooked. If someone else rescues before you do, no value till the next one. Your very likely to fight your team as a solo survivor over this.
If i recorded i could show how it didn't save survivors despite using it. Just cause you or I get different results doesn't mean it needed hit immediately or not does it? Not real testing period means who knows if people would properly adapt.
…Jason got a light tap all things considered. You apparently saw fog vials got actual gutted for no reason besides crying from killers. THAT would be an example of gutting.
Hope, Syringes, Styptics - these alone will have made an enormous dent in survivor performance. Fast Track - should have just been reverted. I just got it in Chaos Shuffle and it is a complete joke now. Cross Examination we can't even consider as we did not get a chance to try it properly.
There are also a number of shadow/undocumented nerfs that have not been addressed yet but do greatly affect gameplay. Examples include difficulty in throwing pallets, stolen/missing prompts, getting hit much more frequently through pallets, delay when fast exiting a locker.
Not to say that a couple of new survivor perks haven't been good, like Five Moves Ahead, and perks with Elusive status have made stealth more of an option again.
this right here.
Bhvr themselves admitted survivor was getting the short end of the stick and then scrapped everything. I love how “50/50” killer mains just ignore how much survivors have lost because it doesn’t fit their narrative.
Atleast i can say i’m an actual 50/50 player. I don’t try to use that as a shield to cover my bias to one side.
So about deli, every single unhook counts as safe cuz it's currently broken, if you go into the basement while a killer camps it and unhook the survivor Infront of the killer, it will count as safe, I have seen many times when my first hook was in basement and then after that hooking the other person who was unhooker, when I went away they unhooked themselves and got the broken status effect, like every unhook is safe currently.
Also, cross examination was tested in the PTB and it was very obvious it's broken to many killers going away after going once around the loop as they thought the survivor left (there are plenty of loops with high walls where you can't see the survivor) or killers keep going around the loop when they thought the survivor was still there but they left with whole 5 seconds of elusive, elusive is a broken status effect and getting it permanently is broken (elusive literally does what 10 different perks do combined like iron will is one of them for example and with cross examination it was basically permanent) and it gave you the 5 seconds of elusive every time you got hit so with the speed you were able to hide from the killer, imo the perk should be fully reworked cuz it's a flawed design.
If killer's were getting nerf after nerfs, survivors will say they're justified, stop complaining.
If survivor's were getting nerf after nerfs, killers will say they're justified, stop complaining.
If you look at DBD as a whole, from year 1 to 10, both sides have been nerf to oblivion and back. That is because the game is extremely difficult to balance for all possible perks, powers, tools, and addons for now and future. Not too long ago it was killer's getting ever slowdown perk nerfed. Whether or not any of those changes held long term, it was the killer side being targeted.
You should probably know what the game considers a "safe unhook" if you are going to claim its bugged. It just means that the unhooked survivor doesn't enter the dying state for 15 seconds after being unhooked. I have actually had my deli not activate because I unhooked a friend who wanted to use their plot twist and plot twisted before those 15 seconds had passed. You could argue that there should be more conditions on a safe unhook but not that it isn't working as intended.
You have to love how so many of the "I play both sides, my opinion is objective fact" crowd reacts to survivors getting a new anything. "This doesn't benefit me at all! Where's my equal attention cake!?"
the undoucmented ones are the worst.
Locker one is so bad, especially if you get caught by one of cheese lockers near a vault its just a free grab for killer now rather then free hit.
They also did deja vu in recently, if you paid close attention you could see gen spikes moving on the deja vu aura, that has been gone since Jason came out
I don't need help with tunneling. I do mostly fine on survivor in that regard, and I chew right through that garbage perk as killer. It's nothing to many A and S tier killers. Speaking of nerfed survivor perks though.
I'm not going to run across the map only for someone to get the unhook before me. But that's kind of irrelevant. The fact that you have to stop working on your gen and go perform an action makes it a nerf.
I could have just as well made little snippets of me maintaining chases and getting downs against it. I run Lucky Break on survivor which gets me out of a chase or two for free pretty much every match while also doubling as anti-tunnel. There are many perks that do this. The idea that a thing is maybe situationally useful and not straight trash warranting a nerf is the problem.
Gutted is wild. Some of his add-ons were buffed, and his anti-camp was greatly reduced. He's also got some insanely busted add-ons. He doesn't even need add-ons but they did what they did with Ghoul and gave him two extra perk slots. Badge is unacceptably free and strong. But you're asking about survivor nerfs and bringing up killers now.
The thing where it worked if the killer was behind you was a bug but all you did here was describe Lucky Break. I used footsteps and breathing to track people with CE, as well as prediction. Already works well for me maining a prediction-based killer.
I do know that and 10 seconds out of 15 are covered by endurance (the 15 seconds were fully covered with 15 seconds of endurance which is currently in the game but will get changed later), getting hit during the 10 seconds means getting a speed boost and by just holding W will probably guarantee survival for 15 seconds even against blight (some resource should be near).
Your plot twist example is just highly specific cuz of that one perk and would be a bad play by your teammate, like just heal for 16 seconds. Also, If the unhooked survivor wants to bodyblock (and killer waits the 10 seconds and downs them), then they are asking to get tunneled out, they could have used their elusive to get away (I know this change has not been implemented yet but still).
It's not a bug but really every unhook is basically safe unhook which is rarely otherwise and was caused by a bad play most of the time, so saying needing a safe unhook for deli is an issue is just fundamentally wrong, not getting hooked first is not that hard actually, killers use lethal rarely (I love this perk but it shouldn't be considered crazy strong or something that's used every match) cuz a slowdown is obviously better, like corrupt intervention shows the survivor location basically + first few gens at the start will take longer to be completed.
Again, you can argue it should have more conditions which is what you are now doing but that doesn't make it bugged. I was simply explaining what the game considers a safe unhook since it seems like you didn't know beforehand.
We didn't know that would happen and laughed about it because we thought it was funny, its a niche interaction that obviously works that way if you think about it, we just made a silly mistake. Bad play? That's time I used to hop back on the three gen the killer was holding, it was absolutely the right play.
Not getting hooked first is entirely chance, not something "easy" or something you have much real control over. Last time we actually got stats on perks lethal pursuer was fifth most picked worldwide, I don't know about you but that isn't rarely used to me.
Where did these numbers come from?
Very well said. This is also my main point why I am not really excited for anything new for Survivor at this point, since I know that Killers will protest and that it is very likely that BHVR will bend their knee to them. Just happened with Cross-Examination, a Perk which was so insanely mid and still people complained about it. I have barely seen it before its Nerf, which might also be due to the fact that people did not bother playing it because they knew it was nerfed, but it was once again something which got nerfed before hitting the Live Servers to gain actual Data. And this is the fourth or fifth time where something like that happened.
And this makes me think that whenever a Perk which might change my Build or might change the Meta for Survivor might be released, Killers will protest and it will be weakened significantly and become irrelevant. Killers at least get options to play around with, e.g. Turn Back the Clock as a very good Regression-Perk which allows to have some Build variety.
But the Anti-Tunnel and Anti-Slugging Update is basically what killed my vibe completely. They said in the past that they want to address those issues, but in the end, they probably did not care too much about it, given the fact that they will now remove the only thing which was left of Anti-Tunnel (aside of the Survivor Nerfs of course), which is the extra 5 seconds of Unhook protection. And I am still very sure that they should have just brought the Anti-Tunnel and Anti-Slugging to live and see how it actually plays out on the Live Server, because I think that a) it would not have been that bad for Killer and b) Tweaks were totally possible.
And last but not least, I am also feeling bad for the people who worked on that stuff. They spend actual time to think and develope those measurements and then someone decided to throw it away in a second. It must be incredibly frustrating to work on something for months and then all your work is just poured down the drain, because some players were really loud and concerned about things which were really not that bad and could have been tweaked. I would honestly thinking about quitting my Job at a company which "values" my work like some piece of trash.