Endurance should not be active after all five generators are completed.
The reason is that the killer often cannot do much about it at that point. If the killer hooks a survivor during the endgame, another survivor can unhook them or free themself, and then Endurance activates. After that, they can usually reach almost any exit gate safely.
This creates situations where the killer gets a hook in the endgame, but the survivor is still extremely easy to secure because Endurance removes most of the risk from the rescue.
Comments
I feel like this wasn't much of a problem before people (myself included lmao) started abusing the 15 second basekit BT
Part of endgame as killer is thinking about the best way to do things. If the person has no hook states than hooking is often not the best idea. If the basement is nearby, you have a better chance of defending the hook. As it is, some killers are very difficult to rescue against, and if survivors aren't coordianted they can blow it and flip a win into a loss. Killers already get no anti-camp, and most useful survivor perks are disabled in endgame.
End game kills aren't supposed to be free. If you have 2 or 3 people left to perform the rescue, you probably don't deserve it.
"Don't deserve it" well bro what about hatch, does surv deserve it in a lost game? 🤣
I generally think Cog was saying that you have to work hard and play well for a Endgame kill, its not free. i have no idea where Hatch came into play here
Also Hatch isnt a matter of deserving it, its a matter of "will i get there before they will?"
Because you dont have to play well for the hatch, but somehow surv getting it is deserved, while getting a single kill in an endgame which is a lose anyway for a killer is not deserved. Called a hypocrisy.
I guess i can slightly understand that a little more now, but generally whats wrong with a survivor getting hatch? As killer youve won, and played well. should that not be enough?
Whats wrong with killer guaranteeing a kill in an endgame?
Fair move
The hatch is an intended mechanic certain players have decided to supress. Endurance is an intended mechanic that's hard to suppress, so I guess just delete it? You are the one caught up on the idea of deserved things. You think you deserve a 4k even if everyone gives up. So do you also think you deserve a free kill when you play like garbage and get two hooks all match?
These too things aren't remotely equivalent. A survivor can play perfectly but have bad teammates that cost them the match. Hence, the hatch exists. And it's not a guarantee even if it's allowed to spawn. But killers are one person, and if you did bad, it's solely on you. Killer should be the role of individual skill expression and personal responsibility yet so many are always asking for more free stuff.
I’m fine with it. Killer can facecamp in endgame, and in most cases it’s going to be a hook trade. If survivors can pull of a hook save with me facecamping and get everyone out safely, then I tip my cap to them. It sucks when it happens to you playing killer, but it feels great when you pull it off as survivor.
I can see the endurance being cut in half once the gens are powered, as the killer now has no options besides ensuring kills by any means including camping or going after whoever is on deathhook. But not having endurance is like "well u just happened to be the survivor closest to the killer once the last gen popped so you die. better luck with the next 15 minute round." As you wouldn't have a chance to do anything either.
Endurence can be bareable but with full haste thats different level it automaticaly put killers like trickster,huntress,first into loss to get that survivor even slinger when he misses because every use of their power slows them and these survivors dont loose any distance while they are still protected by endurance plus bodyblocks.
This combo makes hooking near gates loss which it is unless you have killer with oneshot like bubba,billy,mayers or survivors dont bodyblock you a hook.
Survivor with unhook haste has 4,4 m/s for 15 seconds which is 66 meters of distance thats more than half of some small maps in distance or half of that map which is a lot of distance so with killer who can protect hook as bubba,billy,mayers or has no insane mobility (even with mobility you cant get then through endurence in time before they are in exit area) you need to hook them like half of the map far from exit gates which is very limited depending on map.
And surv side is a side of team skill expression. God why you so stubborn about getting a win in a game your team lost, it would be absurd in any other team-based pvp, if your team loses you also lose no matter how godly player you are, thats like common sense, not difficult concept to grasp, but i guess dbd players are built different. Why cant you play killer or just a game where only individual skill expression matters if losing because of bad teammates is so frustrating for you.
Take a look at your personal stats. Do you see "wins" anywhere on the survivor tab? No, you see a personal escape rate. The game doesn't require survivors to be team-minded, and they aren't rewarded in anyway for doing so. Until there's more basekit assistance and more full-game changes to help soloqers be a team, they usually aren't.
Thinking killers should be able to guarantee an end game kill even if they were terrible all match is the most entitled idea I've ever seen. If you're entitled to a 4k every match you win, then aren't survivors entitled to a 4 out every match they get the gens done and the gates open?
Lol I do play killer. I know it's hard to believe, but we don't all want things to be free and easy. Some of us want to earn what we get.
You know what's hypocrisy? Thinking you should always get a 4k when you're winning, even going so far as to supress intended mechanics, and then also thinking you deserve a free end game kill when you're losing.
In endgame cutting it in half or getting rid off haste and keeping full endurence would be fine change tbh because both of them are too much.
Before it was 10 seconds but 5 seconds make huge difference in distance and safety of survivor who was unhook in endgame.
idk i'm capable of turning games around even with endurance in endgame by playing around it, or doing my best to avoid endgame in the first place. i fail to see the issue here?
there's also no hard definition of a win for the team. results are just a conclusion of in-game performance against whatever killer you're going up against. individual skill relies on your decision-making as a player. and yes, this includes leveraging endurance.
being smart about your deathspots to force a better chance at escaping or the killer making a critical mistake by not being mindful about where they're putting you, how many survivors are alive and their health state or whereabouts, etc. matters in this scenario. it's not just "free".
also for the sake of providing examples:
but outright trying to void this aspect entirely for end game because you don't want to have to think about your actions carefully or be strategic, and instead blaming "bad teammates" for your failure to control survivors is a personal issue.
the game should not have to, and will not bend to your emotions.
edit: post was meant to be addressed to OP as well but quotes broke.
It's already next to impossible not to secure a kill at endgame and you want to make it even easier? Dude if you are this concerned just camp, throw on deadlock and noed. It's two kills minimum with no effort involved.
i dont think endurance should be removed as removing endurance prevents any incentive for a rescue play, the hooked personw ould just be abandoned.
So endurance should exist but it shouldnt be 15 seconds imo and i would remove the haste boost there prior to endurance hit.
this would allow rescue plays in end game but not just make the unhooked invincible and get an escape with essentially zero risk
It is not about kills or anything like that.
Endurance exists to help survivors against tunneling and to give them protection in those situations. However, once all generators are completed, the game is basically considered over. At that point, there is nothing left for the killer to “tunnel” someone, because the main objective has already been completed.
The way I see it is similar to the hatch. The hatch gives survivors hope of escaping and prevents them from completely giving up when the match is almost lost. In the same way, if basekit Endurance were removed during the endgame, it would give the killer a reason to keep playing the last minute or two of the match with the hope of securing a kill.
If you are so good at killer that you can secure a kill during the endgame even with Endurance active, then that is good for you. However, that is your personal experience, not necessarily what the general player base experiences.
If the developers still want Endurance to exist during the endgame, they could make it so that Borrowed Time provides Endurance during that period instead of having it be basekit.
Take a look at your personal stats. Do you see "wins" anywhere on the killer tab? No, you see a personal kill rate. The game require you to play for 4k. Not "3k is a win anyway going for 4k is an ego". But it only works one-way right? 🤣
I personally dont think killer should guarantee 1k at endgame, but i dont think hatch should exist either. Why do survs get free win buttons and killer can't get a thing that doesn't even give them a win, not even a draw, just a kill. "I am poor solo q so skilled my teammates suck i deserve i win". Once again play killer or some game where individual skill matters more. You dont come to team game and complain about your random teammates otherwise(its not like you cant get friends to play with yourself) you are just an idiot honestly who hates himself.
Yes its hard to believe you play a killer if you think any killer gets things free and easy. Thats just average opinion of bad surv who gets stomped in 15s chase by skull merchant and complains about killers being too OP.
Also slugging at 2 survs is intended, at the very least at this point it is, it was like that for years and bhvr did not address it in any way, either bhvr dont care and dont fix obvious problem for years or you just make up things in your head. Choose your poison.
Why do Killers feel that they are entitled to their pity Kill in Endgame? LIke… You reached Endgame as the Killer, meaning you failed to protect 5 Gens. So the reward should be a guaranteed Kill on a Survivor? (And before someone comes at me - I call hatch a pity escape as well which Survivors should also not be entitled about…)
And funny enough, if Endurance in Endgame is removed, I bet that this would lead to overall less Kills in Endgame. Because situations where Survivors try to get everyone out and fail would happen less, since less people will be trying to save someone in Endgame if this person does not gain Endurance, since it is very, very unlikely that they would make it out.
I mean to be fair bhvr themselves have gone on record saying they want the endgame to be "fair game" with stuff like DS OTR and the like deactivating at endgame. Just depends how much they mean by that because with 15 seconds you could have something like deli or 4% and get out despite how close the game was lol. If the killer has killed 2 survivors and catches the 3rd at endgame and hooks them. Thats a pretty close game. And they just jump off and run out. Eitherway its a pity escape/hook. Just depends what side they wanna take. Just that 4%/deliv makes a win into a draw in that case because from 3 to 2.
Endurance off hook is there to prevent the survivor from being downed the moment their feet touch the ground against a camping killer. It does help with tunneling as well but that is secondary to it giving the survivor the initial chance to get away. Without that it isn't hope to get a kill, its guaranteed.
I actually think the endgame is typically when killers are at their strongest. By that point a lot of resources have already been used up, survivors are often injured or have hook states, and you need to defend 2 gates instead of 5 generators. Anti-camp and anti-tunnel perks are no turned off, which allows you to face camp making securing an end game kill easier than a kill before the gens pop.
The reason basekit BT exists is to prevent an immediate down with no counterplay. I think it’s reasonable to say that the game is healthier when both sides have some degree of agency and possible counterplay.
The game doesn't "require" you to do anything and I never said playing for 4k is ego. Feeling entitled to a 4k in a match you've already won and forcing a lengthy lose-lose situation on other people is ego.
Show me where in this game it says slugging specifically for the 4k is intended. Just because people have decided to do something doesn't mean it's intended. BHVR are too scared to make big changes because they know the CCs and their mindless drones will cry about it until it's destroyed.
I already showed you my nearly 60% ER for the month but, yeah, I must be bad at survivor. So here's me getting a couple sudden wins as killer, totally thanks to aura perks, free and easy:
https://youtu.be/zxFVqAkQyzk
https://youtu.be/y6ubqFvyGfUThat first one you can see I was doing terrible with 2 hooks at 1 gen left. Yet I won. Because killer is like that. Sudden wins after losing don't happen for survivors.
And here's a handful of undeserved end game/late game wins. Because the game is already killer-sided as is, against all but the very best coordinated teams:
Would you like to see a bunch of screenshots of 4ks at 5gens too? Those are also free and easy, thanks to poor matchmaking.
Then it should be a freebie specifically for people who are not good? Why should that survivior who was unlucky enough to be hooked at the last second in a match they were winning just suddenly lose so the not-very-good killer gets a consolation prize?
Here's an actual example from my survivor point of view of this issue.
1 player eliminated
I get hooked (next to an open exit gate).
The remaining two survivors, despite us having a guaranteed 3 man out make a HUGE blunder and decide to just leave the match with me on-hook.
Because of this massive survivor blunder, the killer should have at least secured 2 kills here. However, despite that, because I'm a survivor, the game simply handed me a free escape leaving the killer with a single kill…and there was absolutely NOTHING the killer could do about it. Even if he hooked me further from the gate, that extended BT time gives me plenty of time to get to the gate - especially with Lithe in my pocket.
https://youtu.be/0YtyDEGryosThe clip shows @cogsturning targeting one survivor while another is down, but instead of chasing the first survivor he turns back and catches a survivor trying to come in while he is distracted and get the pick up. Its a demonstration of how survivors can collapse late even when they have things going for them.
Also, Kwon doesn't stay in the same place, he's moving when the M2 comes the 2nd time.
With the current pallet density and the speed of the game, survivors almost always have resources around them. Also, I am not talking about defending the exit gates. I am talking specifically about Endurance no longer working once all five generators are completed.
Do you think it is fair for the unhooking survivor to be able to use Endurance aggressively to body-block the killer and stop them from hitting the survivor they just rescued?
In that scenario, both survivors can often escape because the killer cannot do anything meaningful. The unhooked survivor has Endurance, the unhooker can body-block, and with nearby pallets or the exit gate already open, there is usually no real counterplay.
Not realy without very good mobility they arent, gates are powered and resources are mostly done but survivors having bodyblocks still can help them with distance to gates.
At endgame as killer you have less struggle to get down but one slip anf survivors are gone through exit gates plus your options are more limited you cant go for anyone who you want like guy who is next 99 gate will escape you which doesnt happen when gens are still at play. Endgame has some advantages for killer but even more limits only two main advantages are there and thats high probsbility of survivors having less resources (pallets) and many meta perks not working like ds and others and thats all killer has there compare to state of zhe game where gens are still in play.
Basekit bt is now 15 seconds compare to previous 10 and its still with haste during endgame which gives unhooked survivor 66 meters in distance in straight line plus one hit more and they cant be oneshot through it and after taking damage in these 15 seconds window they get hit plus sprintburst for 1,8 seconds which is another 10,8 meters of distance while killer is slowed for 2 to 3 seconds depending of type of power attack cooldown they have used (m1 is 2,7 seconds) and killer for that time on vast majority of attacks gets massively slowed down in movement speed.
So unless its great mobility killer with shorter cooldown like ghoul,blight who can catch up and cut through health states unhooked survivor is save and out and others can bodyblock or be bodyblocked even by saved survivor which makes hooking near gate super bad for killer and its just mytter of time before save is done and here not all killers can trade so easily.
When it comes to pallets and resources, we may just have to agree to disagree. I think claiming survivors have access to roughly the same amount of resources at the end of the game as they do at the beginning is a bit disingenuous. Killer is absolutely stronger when there are less pallets on the map.
As for aggressive body blocking with endurance, I think that’s focusing on one particular use case rather than the reason the mechanic exists in the first place. That’s like saying that because 4 man bleed out slugs exist, slugging can’t exist at all. We can talk about how things are used but we need to acknowledge why those things exist in the first place. Â
Personally I wouldn’t  mind a middle ground solution. The unhooked survivor could temporarily have no collision, meaning they can’t body-block for others and killer can’t body-block them from the gate. That would address the issue of endurance being used aggressively while still preserving its original purpose; to protect someone who just got unhooked.
Because while I understand the frustration of an unhooked survivor using endurance to force a body block, I don’t think the answer is removing the protection entirely. Without it, an endgame hook would easily become a guaranteed kill. Anti-camp is disabled, the killer can stand directly in front of the hook, and the moment the survivor is unhooked without endurance they can be instantly downed with no way to react, no counter play.Â
In my opinion the goal shouldn’t be guaranteeing an escape or guaranteeing a kill. The goal should be creating situations where both outcomes are possible and both sides have some degree of counter play and agency. That’s where I think the healthiest middle ground is.
Sure, that may work: remove the unhooked survivor completely from the equation so the killer has a chance to make a trade hook.
We know they can do that. My problem then becomes: what about the other second-chance perks the newly hooked survivor may have?
Yes, Decisive Strike would not be active, but what about Deliverance? What if they get the 4% self-unhook? In that case, the newly hooked survivor could still end up getting a free escape.
The reason I say Endurance should stop working once all five generators are completed is because it would force survivors to make the right play. You should not be able to run in, unhook directly in the killer’s face, and then have both survivors run to the exit gate with very little risk.
I also believe the unhooked survivor should not have a hitbox for the killer.
it’s hard to work hard for something impossible lmao. There’s zero point in hooking a survivor you downed in exit gates as they’re always going to be able to get due to hook density combined with endurance, and then that endurance will in turn be used to take a proc hit for the rescuer.
Respectfully, I think endurance is becoming less of the issue here and the discussion is shifting toward whether survivors should have any chance to escape after being hooked in the endgame.
Originally the concern was aggressive endurance body-blocking. I suggested removing collision from the unhooked survivor, which would solve that problem. But now we’re talking about Deliverance and even 4% self-unhooks and even labeling them as “free escapes”.
That’s where I get a little confused.
Deliverance isn’t a free escape. It’s a perk that takes up a slot, has a specific activation requirement, can only be used once, and does absolutely nothing if you don’t meet those conditions And a 4% is exactly that, a 4% chance, not a guaranteed outcome. It’s luck based, much like hatch spawning directly in front of you or closer to one person than the other.
I admit I’m also having trouble understanding the idea that endgame should fundamentally change the rules in a way that removes even more options from survivors. By the end of the match, survivors are usually at their weakest. resources have been used,  they have hook states. Whether we agree on exactly how strong killers are in endgame, it’s hard to argue that face camping isnt easier when anti-camp is disabled, or that survivors are somehow just as strong in end game as they were in the beginning when all pallets were up and nobody had any hooks.
So if survivors are already in their weakest position during end game, I’m not understanding why we would want to make them even weaker by disabling all endurance.Â
If a survivor uses a perk they brought specifically for that situation, after surviving until the endgame and completing the requirements to activate it, its considered a “free escape.” But a killer being able to face camp a hook after anti-camp is disabled, and immediately being able to down that unhooked survivor because endurance is disabled in end game, isn’t considered a “free kill”? We’re talking about a 4% chance being too high?