Sabo/wiggle changes (survivor and killer)

Comments

• Daniel_Silva04

  May 19, 2025

  I don't think sabotage needs more buffs, because it's already an extremely poorly done mechanic and very frustrating to deal with. It basically has no counterplay if used correctly, the killer will have to drop the survivor and will no longer be able to pick him up because of the wiggle buff that the survivors have received a while back, where if the killer drops the survivor the wiggle fills by 25%, so basically he is immune.
• Zuiphrode

  May 19, 2025

  No.
• Langweilig

  May 19, 2025

  @Daniel_Silva04 said:

  I don't think sabotage needs more buffs, because it's already an extremely poorly done mechanic and very frustrating to deal with. It basically has no counterplay if used correctly, the killer will have to drop the survivor and will no longer be able to pick him up because of the wiggle buff that the survivors have received a while back, where if the killer drops the survivor the wiggle fills by 25%, so basically he is immune.

  My aim wasn‘t to buffs already good perks/items. Most of these changes are aimed directly at perks that aren‘t really good (leader, hangman’s, thana, dying light, toolboxes with 16 charges, yellow toolbox, saboteur, boil over, desperate measures).

  Breakout you could argue about being already good, but I don‘t find it very useful, especially when going for safes means throwing the game most of the time. Buffing alexes toolbox and reducing the charges consumed by sabotaging might not be needed, however I‘d like these changes.

  The aura remaining shown after it got sabataged will only trick you if you don‘t pay attention, which seems fair to me.

  I don’t think sabotaging is a poorly designed mechanic. The killer can relatively easy counter it by running to a different hook. Most of time there are 3-5 hooks in range either way and those buffs change nothing about the situations where you are unable to hook already.
• Langweilig

  May 19, 2025

  @Zuiphrode said:

  No.

  Do you want to elaborate or just downvote without any constructive feedback?
• AimsKey

  May 20, 2025

  Boil over - I can understand. The amount of trolls used to constantly run upstairs to not be hooked again and again, because of the extra wiggle from a fall and no other route to a hook in time, i used to just leave slugged and say NOPE, you stay there then. Im glad they added some hooks upstairs to help with that.

  Leader - No way. Might as well not have Hex totems if you find your with a SWF. They would all have one person with it i bet lol. Everything would be insanely fast. Can you imagine a SWF with that power of Sabo and healing? Holy…….

  Sabotage stuff - No way. Carrying a survivor i get plenty of people sabo as it is, nevermind making it easier. I get maybe your balancing for solo? but its awful if its a good team as it is, nevermind a full SWF would be terrible!!! All of them run those perks lol.

  Thatnophobia - Making it better so other killers want to pick it and it nerfs it a little for the usual Plague/Legion picks without the +12% extra. That ones fair tbh.
• yukiday

  May 20, 2025

  OK Let's go slugging meta.
• Langweilig

  May 20, 2025

  @AimsKey said:

  Boil over - I can understand. The amount of trolls used to constantly run upstairs to not be hooked again and again, because of the extra wiggle from a fall and no other route to a hook in time, i used to just leave slugged and say NOPE, you stay there then. Im glad they added some hooks upstairs to help with that.

  Leader - No way. Might as well not have Hex totems if you find your with a SWF. They would all have one person with it i bet lol. Everything would be insanely fast. Can you imagine a SWF with that power of Sabo and healing? Holy…….

  Sabotage stuff - No way. Carrying a survivor i get plenty of people sabo as it is, nevermind making it easier. I get maybe your balancing for solo? but its awful if its a good team as it is, nevermind a full SWF would be terrible!!! All of them run those perks lol.

  Thatnophobia - Making it better so other killers want to pick it and it nerfs it a little for the usual Plague/Legion picks without the +12% extra. That ones fair tbh.

  Leader: I mainly want the other people to heal me faster in soloq. The sabo part of it isn‘t that useful, but I added it for completeness. It is also very unlikely that you are near another survivor when they cleanse a totem and it’s not worth running across whole map or staying near them for a bit of faster cleansing speed. 25% is far too weak and doesn’t make a difference.

  The saboteur buff wouldn‘t even do much. It will still sabo very slowly. The cooldown reduction/going on cooldown after the sabo action instead of the start is more a quality of live change and the aura change would make it worth considering it.

  Yes, I‘m balancing for soloq and these changes are almost all (except Alexes toolbox change) for bad items/perks and relatively minor. Non of these perks are really worth running at the moment. In swf these changes don‘t even change anything, because swf can already make themself unhookable if they want to.
• Langweilig

  May 20, 2025

  @yukiday said:

  OK Let's go slugging meta.

  Like the last time toolboxes got changed, where nothing like that happened? These changes aren‘t even significant and mainly aimed at bad perks/items - not the good ones.
• Zuiphrode

  June 1, 2025

  @Langweilig said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929863#Comment_3929863

  Do you want to elaborate or just downvote without any constructive feedback?

  My feedback is that your idea is stupid and you should feel bad for posting it.
• LockerLurk

  June 1, 2025

  @Langweilig said:

  A while ago toolboxes got buffed and recently breakout. While it made sabotaging a lot better, there are still perks and elements that need some polishing to be viable.
  

  Boil over

  • Remove getting wiggle progress after falling and landing with the killer.
  • Hitting a great wiggle skill checks grants 1% wiggle progress. (New)

  Note: Boil over is only good in situations where it can be abused and it lead to nerfing sabotaging as a whole by introducing so many new hooks. Now it is barely useful, because most or all abusable spots are fixed.

  Breakout

  • Increase range to 6 (was 5)meters.

  Saboteur

  • Reduce sabotage time to 2 (was 2.3) seconds.
  • The cooldown only starts after successfully sabotaging a hook.
  • The aura of hooks gets shown when someone is downed or carried by the killer. (Was only when carried).

  Leader

  • Increase the percentage to 35-50 (was 25)%.

  Desperate Measures 

  • Dead survivors count for stacks.
  • Increased its effect to 16 (was 14)%.
  • Added sabotaging speed to its effects.

  Sabotaging a hook in general

  • The aura of sabotaged hooks remains shown to the killer for 10 seconds, after they got sabotaged. When the hook got sabotaged you also see it with the aura. (new)

  Toolboxes

  • Sabotaging consumes 4 (was 6) charges.
  • Alexes toolbox has 20-24 (was 18) charges.
  • All toolboxes with 16 charges get 20 charges.
  • New addon, that shows you the aura of hooks inside of a 32 meter radius to your location.
  • Yellow toolbox: Hooks need 20 seconds longer to respawn. (New)

  Dying light

  • The obsession gets affected by the negative effects as well.

  Thanatophobia

  • Gain 4% of its effects for each injured survivor. (Was 2% per injured person + 12 % when all four are injured).

  Note: That way it can be used on more killers than legion and plague.

  Scourge hook: Hangman’s trick (mini rework)

  • While carrying a Survivor, see the aura of any survivor within 9 (was 0) meter of a normal hook and within 14m of a scrounge hook. This effect persists for 4 seconds after hooking the survivor (new).
  • When a survivor starts to sabotage a hook, they scream and become exposed for 30 seconds. (new)

  Note: If survivors try to sabo you can go for them or down them with the exposed and they get interrupted by the scream. The aura reading will also be a lot more helpful and less situational than it currently is.

  What do you think ? 💭

  My ideas for perks, killers…

  I'll look at these bit by bit, but I'm of the opinion none of these changes would be very healthy for the game whatsoever.

  • Boil Over: I agree wiggle progress when falling from a height should be removed as this was and still somewhat can be abused. I don't think it needs to grant +1% wiggle increase, though. The perk was nerfed for very good reason, and upstairs hooks were added to cement that. Rather, the change it needs I think is to just remove the extra sway it causes for Killers, and make the Great Skillcheck zones on wiggling be larger, meaning that wiggling will a) naturally grant a bit more progress as per the perk's intended design, b) this perk can no longer be used in an exploitable manner and is just for accruing BP, something Survivors still often struggle with. I know BHVR doesn't wanna have perks that do that anymore, but I feel it's healthier than adding changes to make previously problematic perks strong again. They were nerfed for good reason.
    
  • Breakout: I think 5 meters is plenty, Breakout plays are meant to be risky moves. Rather I think Breakout should simply not stack with any wiggle increase progress, because currently it can stack with stuff like Boil Over and Flip-Flop. I don't see any reason it needs to be strengthened as it's already a risky perk. Maybe if you want to strengthen it, have it instead help boost the carried Survivor's wiggle progress even more but if it's successful, the user becomes Exposed and Exhausted for 10 seconds - that makes it strong but situational like Shoulder the Burden, while having a strong downside to discourage abuse by stacking it with stuff that makes both of the Survivors escaping easy. Nobody looking to bully the Killer wants to become the next target. I still don't think it even needs this; not all perks have to be strong picks.
    
  • Saboteur: This perk does not in any way need to be buffed; if anything Sabotaging as a mechanic is greatly overtuned. It is never, ever used for anything but to troll or frustrate the Killer player into hardcore slugging everyone, stomp on baby Killer players, and complete challenges. I think Saboteur as a perk needs a full rework entirely - instead of breaking hooks, it now is used to permanently entity block a vault to the Killer (the Killer cannot shoot things through this vault either) OR rebuild one pallet per round and then deactivates - and this pallet or Vault may not be a God Pallet/Vault (this would be hard coded to not work on pallets at shack, pallets and vaults at certain structures like Cow Tree, or on vaults above a drop down or next to other vaults). You get one use to tilt a chase in your favor per round. Rebuilt pallets are given a special sheen visible to all players. If a rebuilt pallet is broken again, it is never rebuildable again - it also does not stack with Chemical Trap (you can't trap this pallet with it). Effects of this perk do not stack - if someone in the round uses it, it deactivates for everyone who has it. This adds a new tactical mechanic to the game that is hard-coded to not be abusable because it's only able to be used once, and that people have asked for or found fun - being able to use vaults and pallets in a new way against Killers or being made to play around them.
    
  • Leader: This perk is already fine as is, it really doesn't need a buff. Buffing it would help SoloQ, but also make SWF stronger for no reason - and SWF is already strong. If anything I would rather see Leader not stack with things like toolboxes, but that's a pipe dream. I think it's genuinely fine and balanced as is.
    
  • Desperate Measures: This perk's speed increases are already being turbobuffed in the next patch when Springtrap comes to live, so I don't think it needs anything more. It's already going to be fine for those who like to play injured and take that risk. Most certainly dead Survivors should not count for stacks, why should you get stacks on a player no longer in the game? Killers lose stacks on perks around Survs being kept alive and the Obsession if they kill someone too early, why shouldn't Survivors have the same consideration to play around? Also Sabotage speed absolutely does not need to be added to anything, as already discussed Sabotaging is currently overbuffed for no reason except to make people maybe not use toolboxes on gens, which spoiler, they just use them on gens anyway.
    
  • Sabotaging in general: I think the aura read for Killers on seeing which hook was saboed is fine, and a very good accessibility change for deaf and hard of hearing Killer players. I also think the aura should be shown to Survivors, so they know that's a safe zone for a short time as the Killer can't hook them there. As for Sabotaging in general, as I said above, it's overtuned and it needs to be reverted to how it was, yesterday. It's overkill and it's a mechanic solely used to bully baby Killer players or taunt the Killer into slugging everyone. Revert or change it.
    
  • Toolboxes: These don't need to be stronger, they're fine as they are with a couple actually being overtuned depending on what addons you put on them. The change to toolboxes needs to be this, and nothing else: All toolboxes have 16 charges, but some addons can have more. Speed increase is the same as before with a slight cap, starting at 25% for a Brown Toolbox and being max 75% for a Blue or Purple Toolbox. Toolboxes that have a sabo speed increase now no longer can increase generator repair speed, and toolboxes that have a repair speed increase now no longer can sabotage hooks. Toolboxes are currently the biggest reason that there are complaints about "genrushing" and games going too fast; they are pound for pound the strongest Survivor item as well as easily the best pick for simply grinding generators, and that's basically all they are really used for. The biggest culprit here is Commodious and toolboxes like it (the anniversary ones, for example), and they are the ones that need this most. Remember, BNP was so strong, it was changed multiple times to what it is now. There are enough more balanced ways to do sabotage and repair generators - it's absurd enough I rarely ever bring toolboxes anymore and guess what? I still repair gens quickly enough because of others bringing perks for it or simply using teamwork. With the coming changes to other items being given more use or new uses, toolboxes may not be the only decent pick anymore anyway, so I would be fine seeing them toned down a bit. I don't mind there being an addon for increasing hook aura range, but I think charge addons should be rarer than sabo addons. No doubt I'll be downvoted for saying this should happen, but let's face it - we all know this is what should happen.
    
  • Dying Light: This perk is outdated and needs a total rework because an Obsession is chosen every round. Your change isn't it though and frankly removes the whole point of the Perk. I think the Obsession should get a 10% increase to unhooking, healing, and repairs - but in exchange, they now have their aura permanently revealed to the Killer for 5 seconds every 30 seconds for the entire round. To counteract tunnelling, if the Obsession is hooked, their unhooker becomes the new Obsession and gets the same benefits and drawbacks. Those who are not the Obsession still get the usual drawbacks. This makes the perk an interesting choice and can work with some other Obsession perks, plus it removes the frankly useless drawback from it while still keeping the Obsession-based nature of the perk. I think Wretched Fate should also have this change, but in reverse - Obsession still gets the drawbacks and nobody else, everyone else has aura revealed for about 5 seconds every 30 seconds.
    
  • Thanatophobia: Actually an OK change for Killer perk variety that is counterable with medkits/syringes, but I would add one change - the increase is to 4%, and up to 16% slowdown when everyone is injured. If everyone is injured, they in addition become Broken until someone is downed, hooked, or killed, and then the perk goes on cooldown for 180 seconds. This means that the Killer can't force permanent broken, it doesn't offer extra benefit to those Killers that like to keep Survs Broken or injured all round, and Survivors must heal each other not just to prevent the slowdown but also to prevent teamwide Broken. This probably is a bad change though and if anything, just upping the repair debuff is enough.
    
  • Scourge Hook - Hangman's Trick: Niche but a useful effect. I think maybe it could make sabotaging riskier yet though, and I propose the following change that also is much more thematic for the Killer it belongs to, the Pig. This perk remains a Scourge Hook but it now booby traps those four hooks. If a Survivor sabotages one of these hooks, instead of making them scream, it Entity Blocks that hook from Sabo for the next 16 seconds AND it puts the saboteur in Deep Wound - this way they must leave and mend, and can't go back to that hook, but Survivors also can't be Downed this way. Like with Thrilling Tremors, the Killer sees Entity blocked hooks with a White Aura, and like with Entity blocked Dredge lockers, the Killer can see the Entity spikes on this hook. After the Entity Block fades away, the Scourge Hook effect transfers to another hook on the map, like how Jagged Compass works. This way it's a decent anti-sabo tool and it also makes people trying to bully this way take risks - nobody likes being forced to Mend. If the Survivor is already injured, Deep Wound still procs. If the Survivor has Endurance, it removes the Endurance but does not give them Deep Wound. Keeping it a Scourge Hook with Entity Block prevents abuse of the perk, but also gives the Killer some light info on where Survivors may be.