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Sadako/Onryo wishlist to make her more fun again

Langweilig Langweilig
in Feedback and Suggestions

What do you think of these changes and the addon pass in the comments?

Let's start with the reasons why I want the following changes.

  • Her teleport became too limited and predictable by introducing so many things that help survivors with condemned.
  • Spamming the teleport for condemned is still a boring, unfun, abusable and annoying way to be forced to play her and against her. I want more freedom in playing her again in fun ways. In the past you could decide whether you wanted to chase as her or condemn survivor first.
  • Her stealth isn't really stealthy.
  • Tapes are being hoarded by survivors.
  • Turning TV's off is too free and fast.
  • Survivors who know how she works make her ability useless, while survivors who don't, lose all the time. Both situations aren’t fun. I try to make her simpler for people who don’t understand her and more consistent across skill levels.
  • I want her to be better at chasing survivors (again).
  • Her TVs are constantly turned off, which makes them unusable for getting close and chasing survivors. I want to discourage turning them off.

Chase/flicker buffs

  • While demanifested, the visible duration gets reduced to 1-1,2 seconds (was 1,5s).
  • The lullaby radius, terror radius, threshold of full invisibility in the otherworld is decreased to 18 (was 24) meters.
  • Her Lullaby is no longer directional.
  • She keeps her pallet stun immunity, loss of collision and undetectable for the lingering flickering duration (,which lasts 4 seconds without the mirror addon). (New)
  • She flickers for 4s after crawling out of a TV. (new)
  • She keeps flickering while breaking pallets and vaulting windows (currently deactivates after starting those actions).

Teleport/TV/chase buffs

  • Please remove the TV auras!!!!!!
  • Increase the tape insertion, grabbing and the speed for turning off TVs to 1,5-2 seconds (was 0,5s/1s).

Changes to her condemned mechanic

  • Passive condemned: Every 25-35 seconds of holding a tape gives 1 stack condemned. (New)
  • Only one (was all) TVs spread condemned.
  • Hooking a survivor (with a tape) gives all other survivors 1 stack of condemned. (new, ring drawing basekit)
  • On the second hook all (was 3) condemned stacks get locked in.
  • Every 60-90s survivors receive a stack of condemned passively. When a survivor is in chase, on hook or carries a tape their timer is paused. (new)
Tagged: Killers

Comments

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    Addon changes

    Chase addons

    🔴 Iri videotape (rework) - for map traversal

    • Hitting a Survivor within 8 seconds after Manifesting turns on the last TV turned off (partially reverted).
    • Sadako can teleport to a turned off TV, which activates it afterwards again. She does not spread condemned, when teleporting to a turned off TV 📺. (new)

    🟣 Telephone

    • Survivors suffer from a -8% (was -3%) hindered Status Effect for 3 seconds, when Manifesting within 7 meters of them.
    • Reduces the required time to manifest and demanifest by 0,2 seconds. (new)

    🟣 Tape editing deck - for jumpscaring people

    • Causes all Survivors start the Trial with a VHS Tape. All survivors must bring their VHS-Tapes to the TV that is furthest from their current location.
    • Survivors who are in a 3-5 meter radius to an active TV get twice as many stacks of condemned and are revealed by killer instinct. (new)

    🟡 Well stone - for the early game

    • At the start of a match she crawls out of a TV next to a survivor and the TVs are not on a 30s long cooldown. (new)
    • Reduces the time it takes for TVs to turn back on by -9 (was 7) seconds.

    ⚪️ Newspaper

    • Increases the duration of your full Invisibility after Manifesting and while being demanifasted (new, merged with reikos watch) by +33 %.

    We don't need two addons for the same thing.

    Condemn addons

    🟢 Ring drawing (rework)

    • Condemned Survivors spread their Condemnation to other Survivors, who complete a Healing action on an injured Survivor. (revert)

    🟢 Well water (rework)

    • Every time a generator gets completed every survivor receives a stack of condemned. (New)

    🟡 Yoichis fishing net (rework)

    • Reduces the time it takes Survivors to acquire another stack of Condemned by -12 % when holding a tape. (revert)

    Stealth Adoons

    🟢 Rickety pinwheel

    • Survivors suffer from the silence (was oblivious) status effect when within 12-16 (was 8) meters of a turned on TV. This effect lingers for 1-2 seconds after leaving its radius (new). When turning the TV off, the addon's range becomes 3-4 (was 0) meters.

    🟡 Clump of hair

    • Reduces the threshold for full Invisibility while Demanifasted to 12 (was 18) meters and the invisibility lingers for 1s (new).

    Alternative playstyle addons

    🟡 Sea-soaked cloth

    • Survivors suffer from the blindness and fog Status effect when within 12-16m (was 8m) of a turned on TVs. This effect lingers for 1-2 seconds after leaving its radius (new). When turning the TV off, the addon's range becomes 3-4 (was 0) meters.

    🟡 Reikos watch

    • The haste from protection gets turned into hindered and given to survivors for the duration of the speed around 16 meters of the TV you teleported to. (New)

    The victims wouldn’t be able to move like in the movies, while Sadako comes slowly closer to them.

    ⚪️ Cabin sign

    • Hitting a survivor breaks their tape. (New)

    New status effect: Silence

    • Everyone becomes deaf and doesn't hear anything. The visual heartbeat deactivates.

    New status effect: Fog

    • There is a wall of fog which blocks your view and auras outside of a 24 meter radius.
  • Skitten56 Skitten56

    Some interesting changes and ideas overall. However BHVR isn't likely to rework Onryo to such a degree. There are a few ideas here though that would be great as minor tweaks or balance changes to help put Onryo is a better place. Specifically regarding the add-ons, here is what I would propose within the frame of the current rework that is more likely to be accepted by BHVR.

    • Change Clump of Hair add-on to make her lullaby map-wide or non-directional. Or tack on that effect to its existing ones.
      • Current effect is basically useless and with the VTR feature, Onryos stealth has suffered a lot. As a result playing stealth Onryo is even less viable than condemn Onryo compared to before.
    • Change Rickety Pinwheel and Sea Soaked Cloth add-ons as suggested but have range be 12 meters for powered TVs and 6 meters for unpowered TVs.
      • These add-ons need to have their effects apply to unpowered TVs now since Onryo's rework has made it so survivors are basically never sitting around powered TVs and turn them off right away to avoid condemn. As such the current effects of these add-ons is really bad.
    • Change VCR add-on to have your suggested effect of giving all survivors a stack of condemn each time a gen is completed.
      • This would make this add-on actually useful for it being purple rarity and add a balanced effect. The current effect of this add-on essentially does noting, especially against good survivors who will just look at the TV aura and know.
    • Change Iri-tape add-on so that survivors either can't see the auras of TVs (fine since they can't apply condemn) or make it so that survivors holding a tape cannot turn off other TVs until they drop their tape off.
      • This makes it so good survivors can't completely shut down her power when Onryo uses this add-on by just running around turning off TVs with basically no risk high reward, especially given the extra unpowered duration debuff the add-on has.
  • Langweilig Langweilig

    However BHVR isn't likely to rework Onryo to such a degree.

    Maybe we just need to fight hard enough together and don’t give up to archive our goals. I haven’t given up yet. Her first version was the healthiest to this day. Only thing they had to do besides buffs, was making ring drawing not work on slugs and introduce condemned look in.

    Your Clumb of hair effect sounds nice. Would you remove its current effect or keep it? And I agree that stealth needs a buff.

    Again agree with everything. The current design of onryos condemned makes that addon basically useless. We have the same idea to buff rickety pinwheel and sea soaked cloth🙂. What do you think of it giving the silence instead of oblivous effect?

    VCR should keep its effect even tho it isn’t really useful at the moment. The effect is one of the more unique and interesting ones we have in the game and it getting deleted would be sad. Instead they should solve the problem at its root and give it an effect on the TV auras if they are unwilling to remove them. Thanks for liking my suggestion tho.

    Your iri tape suggestion goes in the right direction, but survivors being able to turn off TVs is completely unnecessary when you can’t have condemned. They should not be able to see the Tv auras and turn off TVs with that addon in play.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @Skitten56 said:

    Some interesting changes and ideas overall. However BHVR isn't likely to rework Onryo to such a degree. There are a few ideas here though that would be great as minor tweaks or balance changes to help put Onryo is a better place. Specifically regarding the add-ons, here is what I would propose within the frame of the current rework that is more likely to be accepted by BHVR.

    • Change Clump of Hair add-on to make her lullaby map-wide or non-directional. Or tack on that effect to its existing ones.
      • Current effect is basically useless and with the VTR feature, Onryos stealth has suffered a lot. As a result playing stealth Onryo is even less viable than condemn Onryo compared to before.
    • Change Rickety Pinwheel and Sea Soaked Cloth add-ons as suggested but have range be 12 meters for powered TVs and 6 meters for unpowered TVs.
      • These add-ons need to have their effects apply to unpowered TVs now since Onryo's rework has made it so survivors are basically never sitting around powered TVs and turn them off right away to avoid condemn. As such the current effects of these add-ons is really bad.
    • Change VCR add-on to have your suggested effect of giving all survivors a stack of condemn each time a gen is completed.
      • This would make this add-on actually useful for it being purple rarity and add a balanced effect. The current effect of this add-on essentially does noting, especially against good survivors who will just look at the TV aura and know.
    • Change Iri-tape add-on so that survivors either can't see the auras of TVs (fine since they can't apply condemn) or make it so that survivors holding a tape cannot turn off other TVs until they drop their tape off.
      • This makes it so good survivors can't completely shut down her power when Onryo uses this add-on by just running around turning off TVs with basically no risk high reward, especially given the extra unpowered duration debuff the add-on has.

    What do you think about blocking the exit gates for fully condenmend survivors for 15 seconds?

  • Skitten56 Skitten56

    @Langweilig said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903523#Comment_3903523

    What do you think about blocking the exit gates for fully condenmend survivors for 15 seconds?

    Could be interesting but wouldn't be relevant in most matches. If something like this were implemented I think it would be better if fully condemned survivors just couldn't leave through the gate like Pig. Would make late game condemns a lot more intense and higher stakes as they would need to drop off their tape at a TV to remove the curse or have everyone else leave and try to get hatch.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @Skitten56 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905935#Comment_3905935

    Could be interesting but wouldn't be relevant in most matches. If something like this were implemented I think it would be better if fully condemned survivors just couldn't leave through the gate like Pig. Would make late game condemns a lot more intense and higher stakes as they would need to drop off their tape at a TV to remove the curse or have everyone else leave and try to get hatch.

    At first I wanted to suggest that, but if I would allow to lock in all stacks (which I asked for above), survivors would be unable to leave at all when being fully condemned. However it would be nice if we can’t lock in all stacks.

  • Blueberry Blueberry

    As Skitten mentioned I don't think they would do this much of an extreme change and tbh I don't think she needs this much anyway.

    Some very solid addon changes though. She currently has a lot that make no sense.

    I actually like her current teleporting. I do not think it's mindless at all, there is depth to it. Onryo has a much higher skill ceiling than most people realize.

    You touched on some if not most of these, but I think these are core issues that need fixing rather than a heavy rework:

    • Tape destruction on hit returned - She currently has basically no counter play to tapes. Your only "counter play" is preventing them from picking it up in the first place. Once they have it you're screwed. Hit destruction gives her some agency over this. I think this is fair given she doesn't have "real" anti loop so hits don't come easy. The alternative to this is passive condemn with tapes coming back but I don't like this as much because it's free, hit destruction alternatively is not free, it actually requires the Onryo to play well. If they aren't willing to budge on this Ring Drawing should absolutely be base kit.
    • Remove lullaby - This makes absolutely zero sense. There is no point in being Undetectable if you put out a lullaby telling them you're there. You might as well just remove the Undetectable at that point because it's the same thing as a terror radius. It being directional makes no sense either but the lullaby has no point in existing anyway. As long as the lullaby exists she isn't a stealth killer. Everyone knows she's coming and pre runs.
    • Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items - God this is a pet peeve of mine. Anything that adds chests be it coins or event offerings screws over our TV spawns and throws them all away from gens. This also affects killers like Xeno and Plague in similar ways. Just make it prioritize spawning killer items before chests instead of after. That easy.

    Her Manifest/Demanist is on a verge of useless and isn't a real anti loop in any shape or form but if they fix the aforementioned things then she doesn't need this. She shouldn't have good anti loop if she gets the above changes since we need to focus on making her strengths strong but her weaknesses apparent. Her bad anti loop is her weakness.

    Her directional teleport sound is also a major issue and defeats the point entirely, however I don't want to get too greedy. Manifesting/Demanifesting also shouldn't slow her down for how trash it is. If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.

    She has a ton of addon issues as you touched on and many of them look great. I'll save my thoughts on all her addons for another post as this is already a lot.

    Her Remote Control and Bloody Fingernails are also just so good and so pivotal to her play style I don't see how I would ever take them off no matter what improvements we made to her other addons. They feel too required for things she needs. She doesn't have room to run any other flavor addons. So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @Blueberry said:

    As Skitten mentioned I don't think they would do this much of an extreme change and tbh I don't think she needs this much anyway.

    Some very solid addon changes though. She currently has a lot that make no sense.

    I actually like her current teleporting. I do not think it's mindless at all, there is depth to it. Onryo has a much higher skill ceiling than most people realize.

    You touched on some if not most of these, but I think these are core issues that need fixing rather than a heavy rework:

    • Tape destruction on hit returned - She currently has basically no counter play to tapes. Your only "counter play" is preventing them from picking it up in the first place. Once they have it you're screwed. Hit destruction gives her some agency over this. I think this is fair given she doesn't have "real" anti loop so hits don't come easy. The alternative to this is passive condemn with tapes coming back but I don't like this as much because it's free, hit destruction alternatively is not free, it actually requires the Onryo to play well. If they aren't willing to budge on this Ring Drawing should absolutely be base kit.
    • Tape return is furthest TV - This should always be the case. Any TV turn in is bad design and too easy.
    • Remove lullaby - This makes absolutely zero sense. There is no point in being Undetectable if you put out a lullaby telling them you're there. You might as well just remove the Undetectable at that point because it's the same thing as a terror radius. It being directional makes no sense either but the lullaby has no point in existing anyway. As long as the lullaby exists she isn't a stealth killer. Everyone knows she's coming and pre runs.
    • Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items - God this is a pet peeve of mine. Anything that adds chests be it coins or event offerings screws over our TV spawns and throws them all away from gens. This also affects killers like Xeno and Plague in similar ways. Just make it prioritize spawning killer items before chests instead of after. That easy.

    Her Manifest/Demanist is on a verge of useless and isn't a real anti loop in any shape or form but if they fix the aforementioned things then she doesn't need this. She shouldn't have good anti loop if she gets the above changes since we need to focus on making her strengths strong but her weaknesses apparent. Her bad anti loop is her weakness.

    Her directional teleport sound is also a major issue and defeats the point entirely, however I don't want to get too greedy. Manifesting/Demanifesting also shouldn't slow her down for how trash it is. If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.

    She has a ton of addon issues as you touched on and many of them look great. I'll save my thoughts on all her addons for another post as this is already a lot.

    Her Remote Control and Bloody Fingernails are also just so good and so pivotal to her play style I don't see how I would ever take them off no matter what improvements we made to her other addons. They feel too required for things she needs. She doesn't have room to run any other flavor addons. So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.

    they would do this much of an extreme change

    Why do you call it an extreme change?

    I just listed all the things that I want for her. I don’t expect everything to come. However I rather suggest more than less.

    If you mean the condemned changes, it’s like four major changes: passive condemned on holding tapes, passive condemned when not holding tapes, one TV spreads condemned and no more TV auras.

    I do not think it's mindless at all

    I didn’t call it mindless. I try to explain my point of view.

    1. If you play against survivors who don’t understand her, condemned is highly abusive, because they won’t grab tapes and will most likely die to it. If you play against survivors who do understand her, it’s quite the opposite. They can shut down your TVs at all times, so you can’t use them for traversal, nor are they affected by condemned at all. My goal is to take away the spam factor that only really works on survivors who don’t understand her and make her more effective against people who do, so she is more consistent across skill levels.
    2. I really hate that her teleport became useless as a way to chase people and traverse the map. It was such a fun way to play her back then — popping up everywhere — but since TV auras are a thing, it’s pointless and we don’t even need to talk about the fact that TVs are constantly turned off.
    3. I’m trying to make her tapes more intuitive and easier to understand. At the moment tapes have three purposes: removing condemned, turning TVs off, and turning TVs off instantly to make you immune to condemned. Removing the third one would already make her a lot simpler and easier to understand.

    The problem is, her whole kit is focused on being oppressive against people who don’t understand her, and she gets stomped by people who do. This creates an extremely unhealthy balance of requiring mechanics to help out less experienced players, which gives experienced survivors too many tools against her.

    Tape return is furthest TV

    That’s how it currently works.

    Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items

    I agree, but I gave up on that one.

    Remove lullaby

    I highly doubt they will ever remove it since it’s part of the movies. The best we can hope for is it becoming smaller and removing the directional part.

    Tape destruction on hit returned

    Would be nice to have it. I’m only against it giving condemned like in 2.0. I mainly want passive condemned because it discourages taking tapes and I want my TVs to stay untouched.

    directional teleport sound is also a major issue

    Why have you brought this up over TV auras? They are are much bigger issue than the sound. Survivors see them through walls and as soon as the sound starts to play, they turn around.

    If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.

    I don’t think only doing your suggestion will change much about her problems to be honest.

    So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.

    You only rely on bloody fingernails because of the Tv auras. Without them you wouldn’t need it and you could choose other addons. The problem is, her addons are either not good or don’t work with her current design. If behavior fixed that, no one would rely on two addons and there would be variety.

  • tuttoinunavolta tuttoinunavolta

    I've been maining Sadako since her first iteration and im really happy with the spot she's currently in. It sucks that she's been bugged since her last rework though, we still haven't had the chance to try the effects of her demanifested flickering buffs since last year. I think if that ever gets fixed (Reiko's Watch's fix was also just partial) she'll be almost perfect.

    The only complaints I have are:

    • Iri Tape wasn't well-thought out. The game-changing idea was great, but the fact condemn doesn't exist anymore means the survivors can just pick up a tape, shut down every single TVs in the nearby area and completely nullify her teleport power with absolutely zero downsides. They should make it so that when a survivor is holding a tape, they can't turn off other TVs aside from the one that's highlighted (and the one they picked the tape from, of course). That or give them 2% of hindered for every extra TV they turn off, I don't know. Turning TVs off against Iri Tape is just too free as of now.
    • Tape Editing Deck is a bit silly. They left this add-on unchanged between the various reworks, but now it straight up just gives a big starting disadvantage to Sadako. The 6 seconds reading AFTER a survivor cleanses (thus, removing Sadako's one way to get to them quickly) is also too measly of an advantage for that big starting disadvantage, especially since this is a purple add-on too. An entire rework would be better but I think even simply doubling the aura-reading time would make the add-on a viable option.
    • The time it takes for survivors to reinsert a tape should be increased, just by half a second really. In the current state it's a bit too easy to just put tapes back in her face during a chase. I had a game as survivor where I had 5 stacks of Condemned on me, parried her attack with Dead Hard in front of a tv and managed to nullify the condemn progress before she could down me again. I think a tiny tiny tweak, to make that slightly harder but not impossible, would be ideal.

    As of now, all her add-ons that affect demanifestation/manifestation flickering are kinda pointless just because of her long-standing bug. But if that gets fixed, I believe some of them (mainly Reiko's Watch) will become very much worth using. As of now, there's little reason to not just run Nails + Iri Tape every match.

  • Blueberry Blueberry

    @Langweilig said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910753#Comment_3910753

    they would do this much of an extreme change

    Why do you call it an extreme change?

    I just listed all the things that I want for her. I don’t expect everything to come. However I rather suggest more than less.

    If you mean the condemned changes, it’s like four major changes: passive condemned on holding tapes, passive condemned when not holding tapes, one TV spreads condemned and no more TV auras.

    I do not think it's mindless at all

    I didn’t call it mindless. I try to explain my point of view.

    1. If you play against survivors who don’t understand her, condemned is highly abusive, because they won’t grab tapes and will most likely die to it. If you play against survivors who do understand her, it’s quite the opposite. They can shut down your TVs at all times, so you can’t use them for traversal, nor are they affected by condemned at all. My goal is to take away the spam factor that only really works on survivors who don’t understand her and make her more effective against people who do, so she is more consistent across skill levels.
    2. I really hate that her teleport became useless as a way to chase people and traverse the map. It was such a fun way to play her back then — popping up everywhere — but since TV auras are a thing, it’s pointless and we don’t even need to talk about the fact that TVs are constantly turned off.
    3. I’m trying to make her tapes more intuitive and easier to understand. At the moment tapes have three purposes: removing condemned, turning TVs off, and turning TVs off instantly to make you immune to condemned. Removing the third one would already make her a lot simpler and easier to understand.

    The problem is, her whole kit is focused on being oppressive against people who don’t understand her, and she gets stomped by people who do. This creates an extremely unhealthy balance of requiring mechanics to help out less experienced players, which gives experienced survivors too many tools against her.

    Tape return is furthest TV

    That’s how it currently works.

    Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items

    I agree, but I gave up on that one.

    Remove lullaby

    I highly doubt they will ever remove it since it’s part of the movies. The best we can hope for is it becoming smaller and removing the directional part.

    Tape destruction on hit returned

    Would be nice to have it. I’m only against it giving condemned like in 2.0. I mainly want passive condemned because it discourages taking tapes and I want my TVs to stay untouched.

    directional teleport sound is also a major issue

    Why have you brought this up over TV auras? They are are much bigger issue than the sound. Survivors see them through walls and as soon as the sound starts to play, they turn around.

    If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.

    I don’t think only doing your suggestion will change much about her problems to be honest.

    So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.

    You only rely on bloody fingernails because of the Tv auras. Without them you wouldn’t need it and you could choose other addons. The problem is, her addons are either not good or don’t work with her current design. If behavior fixed that, no one would rely on two addons and there would be variety.

    I call it more extreme changes because mine are tweaks to how the kit currently works, you’re wanting it changed fundamentally, IE rework level of change.

    Yea TV auras are a big part of the issue but them hiding those is literally never happening. Taking those away would slaughter new/bad players. If you think she’s a noob stomper now removing auras would decimate them.

    We don’t want to discourage taking tapes, that’s literally her counter play. That’s what they’re supposed to do. What we just want is equal counter play of our own against when they do. Tape destruction is healthier than passive condemn since it’s not free.

    You don’t agree with me on her core problems because you’re focused on tv auras. While yes in a hypothetical utopian world I would agree on removing the auras since they are the main issue, but it’s unrealistic. They aren’t going to do this because of how much it hits the new/bad players, so I’m picking the next best options.

  • MechWarrior3 MechWarrior3

    I would love to see some tweaks done for her truly. She needs it especially those addons…

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @Blueberry said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910850#Comment_3910850

    I call it more extreme changes because mine are tweaks to how the kit currently works, you’re wanting it changed fundamentally, IE rework level of change.

    Yea TV auras are a big part of the issue but them hiding those is literally never happening. Taking those away would slaughter new/bad players. If you think she’s a noob stomper now removing auras would decimate them.

    We don’t want to discourage taking tapes, that’s literally her counter play. That’s what they’re supposed to do. What we just want is equal counter play of our own against when they do. Tape destruction is health more than passive condemn since it’s not free.

    You don’t agree with on her core problems because you’re focused on tv auras. While yes in a hypothetical utopian world I would agree on removing the auras, it’s unrealistic. They aren’t going to do this because of how much it hits the new/bad players, so I’m picking the next best options.

    Tapes are still a perfect counter against her in my version. Passive condemned doesn‘t change a thing about that. Only difference survivors wouldn’t be willing to disable sadako‘s whole power. They would only take them to remove condemned or turn off TVs, which allows her to finally use her teleport for getting close to survivors rather than using it to only spam condemned.

    You don’t need TV auras to find them. It has never been difficult to do it. They make a loud sound and they are next to gens at obvious spots. You can easily remember where you‘ve already found TVs while playing against her. I would agree with you that removing TV auras in the current version would slaughter new players, but that‘s not what I’m suggesting. I‘m suggesting to make her condemned a lot less abusable and by that slower against new players, which gives them more time to remove condemned. The positive of that is, condemned is weaker against less experienced players, however experienced players can‘t completely nullify her teleport and condemned like it is right now.

    Tape destruction is health more than passive condemn since it’s not free.

    You are acting like it is so hard to hit a survivor while it is not. You won’t even gain anything from passive condemned aside from having TVs more available. The condemned you gain passively is always nullified by delivering the tape. Tape destruction is also way stronger than what I‘m suggesting and makes her counterplay a lot harder. I don‘t get why make such a big deal out of removing TV auras when this is way more harmful.

    You don’t agree with on her core problems because you’re focused on tv auras

    What core problems am I ignoring?

  • YayC YayC

    Okay lets go through thes.

    Chase/flicker buffs

    • While demanifested, the visible duration gets reduced to 1-1,2 seconds (was 1,5s).

    It's already at 1 second because it's bugged and it pretty meh because of it. Demanifested invisibility is a nice, unique mechanic and should actually be fixed to be the 1.2 seconds it's meant to be a therefor make Reiko's watch the 1.5 seconds it's supposed to be. It would actually help her get hit's at the bigger tiles in the game.

    Nerfing it to 1 second will actually nerf it to 0.8 seconds and make it a none mechanic again.

    • The lullaby radius, terror radius, threshold of full invisibility in the otherworld is decreased to 18 (was 24) meters.

    All fine changes.

    • Her Lullaby is no longer directional.

    Great change, would also help with demanifest mindgames if the invisibility isn't nuked like you suggested.

    • She keeps her pallet stun immunity, loss of collision and undetectable for the lingering flickering duration (,which lasts 4 seconds without the mirror addon). (New)

    undetectable yes, the pallet stun immunity would just further encourage pre-dropping vs her. We want to improve the gameplay not dumb it down. The loss of collision would be a neat buff to nerf SWF's while not really affecting solo Q which is a big issue with Sadako right now.

    • She flickers for 4s after crawling out of a TV. (new)

    This might make some hits too free and would be pretty RNG on whether or not it would be consistently useful base on TV/gen placement. Gaining undetectable for 4s however would be a better alternative since if you're paying attention you could react to it alittle better but add to her stealth and also make well water a really good addon to choose.

    • She keeps flickering while breaking pallets and vaulting windows (currently deactivates after starting those actions).

    Agree'd especially while vaulting. The fact you can't incorporate a vault in the manifest/demanifest mindgame is just silly when wraith get to vault invisible and have addons to turn him into a hurdle olympian.

    Teleport/TV/chase buffs

    • Please remove the TV auras!!!!!!

    Agreed. Way too much counterplay with them and bad players still don't use them.

    • Increase the tape insertion, grabbing and the speed for turning off TVs to 1,5-2 seconds (was 0,5s/1s).

    I'm not sure as to what the exact numbers should be but it's way too fast right now providing no counterplay even if you outplay an injured survivor.

    • TVs no longer turn off after projection (was 45s, iri tape basekit), which allows you to teleport to them infinitely until survivors turn them off, but the Tv you teleported to doesn’t spread condemned for 45 seconds.

    This isn't the buff you think it is. Right now the only counterplay you have for the tapes is to maintain TV control by being the one to turn off the TVs and keeping tapes out survivors hands as long as possible. Removing this ability from Sadako will kill her condemn mechanic entirely vs any passable survivors because there is no active downside to holding a tape. Now I know you've proposed changes alittle later but they aren't even close to enough to make up for the complete deletion of TV control. This single change you've proposed will make her entirely unplayable vs any competent survivors and be insanely oppressive for bad players. Not to mention the significantly added level of complexity to play of an already mentally exhausting killer of needing to remember what TV's you can and can't push condemn to at any given time.

    Changes to her condemned mechanic

    • Passive condemned: Every 25-35 seconds of holding a tape gives 1 stack condemned. (New)

    This change does nothing of significance to actually pressure survivors holding a tape. 1 cleanse of a tape removes 3 stacks, at 25-35 seconds you can do a full generator and cleanse and only gain 3 stacks for it. You also wouldn't be pushing any condemn on them because the TV would be turned off.
    Any "veteran" survivor will play into this version of Sadako identically to how they play into her now. Grab tape, do gen, deposit tape.

    • Only one (was all) TVs spread condemned.

    My guy, what? 1.0 Sadako was atrociously bad and the only way she was playable was through iri tape, expert TV control with you turning them on and off with TP's and old iri tape, the old decent condemn gain while holding a tape AND old Ring drawing. You want to bring back 1.0 Sadako condemn push without her iri addon, without her map control and without old ring drawing? These suggested changes would render her actually unplayable.

    • Hooking a survivor (with a tape) gives all other survivors 1 stack of condemned. (new, ring drawing basekit)
    • On the second hook all (was 3) condemned stacks get locked in.

    Fine changes but it doesn't matter with the previous changes.

    • Every 60-90s survivors receive a stack of condemned passively. When a survivor is in chase, on hook or carries a tape their timer is paused. (new)

    This would further complicate her power on a killer that's already to complex for most players.

    You're overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be overcomplicated. Right now she is almost perfect (ignoring her terrible addons) from an overall perspective, BHVR just deleted the thing from the PTB that would've made her great.

    There just needs to be a downside to holding a tape or counterplay to it, that's all. A very simple solution would be bring back tape breaking and turn on the TV's the tape turned off.

    Alternatively increase the insert animation so you can't do it during the recovery but can still do it in chase if you play well (could even make it so it's faster than the hit recovery normally but if you are hit/injured, it takes longer to deposit). Then getting hooked with a tape locks in all stacks of condemn and breaks the tape so now if you're caught out with a tape and high condemn you need to outplay Sadako to get the tape off rather than now where you just shift W to the TV and deposit it free and if you're caught out, who cares because it only locks in 3 stacks of condemn?

    Then adjust the weird things in her kit like flickering during vaulting, directional Lullaby and she'll be a fantastic stealth killer with counterplay for both her and the survivor.

  • MechWarrior3 MechWarrior3

    I’ve said this many times before and I will say it again. My only issue with her right now is that tapes are too free for survivors. There is no risk. This is detrimental to Sadako. Fix this, it’ll fix sadako.



    @Blueberry pretty much covered the rest.


    Thank you BHVR for taking in our feedback ☺️

  • Blueberry Blueberry

    @Langweilig said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910913#Comment_3910913

    Tapes are still a perfect counter against her in my version. Passive condemned doesn‘t change a thing about that. Only difference survivors wouldn’t be willing to disable sadako‘s whole power. They would only take them to remove condemned or turn off TVs, which allows her to finally use her teleport for getting close to survivors rather than using it to only spam condemned.

    You don’t need TV auras to find them. It has never been difficult to do it. They make a loud sound and they are next to gens at obvious spots. You can easily remember where you‘ve already found TVs while playing against her. I would agree with you that removing TV auras in the current version would slaughter new players, but that‘s not what I’m suggesting. I‘m suggesting to make her condemned a lot less abusable and by that slower against new players, which gives them more time to remove condemned. The positive of that is, condemned is weaker against less experienced players, however experienced players can‘t completely nullify her teleport and condemned like it is right now.

    Tape destruction is health more than passive condemn since it’s not free.

    You are acting like it is so hard to hit a survivor while it is not. You won’t even gain anything from passive condemned aside from having TVs more available. The condemned you gain passively is always nullified by delivering the tape. Tape destruction is also way stronger than what I‘m suggesting and makes her counterplay a lot harder. I don‘t get why make such a big deal out of removing TV auras when this is way more harmful.

    You don’t agree with on her core problems because you’re focused on tv auras

    What core problems am I ignoring?

    Sorry I’ve been trying to respond from my phone and I’m getting typos/autocorrect messing up some things I’m typing.

    Passive condemn is free. Tape destruction on hit actually takes skill. Saying I’m acting like hits are difficult when they’re not I think is a bit disingenuous. If we’re going to say hits aren’t taking skill compared to passive condemn then what is “skillful” or difficult in dbd? As far as dbd goes getting a hit is one of the better skill representations the game has. That would be like saying pain res is “free” because the hit/down didn’t take any skill or wasn’t difficult, of which I’d disagree.

    Again, I’m not disagreeing with you about TVs being easy to find. I agree we don’t need the auras, personally. What I’m telling you is that bhvr does not agree. They think having auras hidden IS too difficult for new/bad survivors. This isn’t going to change.

    The other core problems I’m trying to focus on are those listed in my fixes. After tv auras, those are the next core issues since tv auras realistically won’t be changed.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @YayC said:

    Okay lets go through thes.

    Chase/flicker buffs

    • While demanifested, the visible duration gets reduced to 1-1,2 seconds (was 1,5s).

    It's already at 1 second because it's bugged and it pretty meh because of it. Demanifested invisibility is a nice, unique mechanic and should actually be fixed to be the 1.2 seconds it's meant to be a therefor make Reiko's watch the 1.5 seconds it's supposed to be. It would actually help her get hit's at the bigger tiles in the game.

    Nerfing it to 1 second will actually nerf it to 0.8 seconds and make it a none mechanic again.

    • The lullaby radius, terror radius, threshold of full invisibility in the otherworld is decreased to 18 (was 24) meters.

    All fine changes.

    • Her Lullaby is no longer directional.

    Great change, would also help with demanifest mindgames if the invisibility isn't nuked like you suggested.

    • She keeps her pallet stun immunity, loss of collision and undetectable for the lingering flickering duration (,which lasts 4 seconds without the mirror addon). (New)

    undetectable yes, the pallet stun immunity would just further encourage pre-dropping vs her. We want to improve the gameplay not dumb it down. The loss of collision would be a neat buff to nerf SWF's while not really affecting solo Q which is a big issue with Sadako right now.

    • She flickers for 4s after crawling out of a TV. (new)

    This might make some hits too free and would be pretty RNG on whether or not it would be consistently useful base on TV/gen placement. Gaining undetectable for 4s however would be a better alternative since if you're paying attention you could react to it alittle better but add to her stealth and also make well water a really good addon to choose.

    • She keeps flickering while breaking pallets and vaulting windows (currently deactivates after starting those actions).

    Agree'd especially while vaulting. The fact you can't incorporate a vault in the manifest/demanifest mindgame is just silly when wraith get to vault invisible and have addons to turn him into a hurdle olympian.

    Teleport/TV/chase buffs

    • Please remove the TV auras!!!!!!

    Agreed. Way too much counterplay with them and bad players still don't use them.

    • Increase the tape insertion, grabbing and the speed for turning off TVs to 1,5-2 seconds (was 0,5s/1s).

    I'm not sure as to what the exact numbers should be but it's way too fast right now providing no counterplay even if you outplay an injured survivor.

    • TVs no longer turn off after projection (was 45s, iri tape basekit), which allows you to teleport to them infinitely until survivors turn them off, but the Tv you teleported to doesn’t spread condemned for 45 seconds.

    This isn't the buff you think it is. Right now the only counterplay you have for the tapes is to maintain TV control by being the one to turn off the TVs and keeping tapes out survivors hands as long as possible. Removing this ability from Sadako will kill her condemn mechanic entirely vs any passable survivors because there is no active downside to holding a tape. Now I know you've proposed changes alittle later but they aren't even close to enough to make up for the complete deletion of TV control. This single change you've proposed will make her entirely unplayable vs any competent survivors and be insanely oppressive for bad players. Not to mention the significantly added level of complexity to play of an already mentally exhausting killer of needing to remember what TV's you can and can't push condemn to at any given time.

    Changes to her condemned mechanic

    • Passive condemned: Every 25-35 seconds of holding a tape gives 1 stack condemned. (New)

    This change does nothing of significance to actually pressure survivors holding a tape. 1 cleanse of a tape removes 3 stacks, at 25-35 seconds you can do a full generator and cleanse and only gain 3 stacks for it. You also wouldn't be pushing any condemn on them because the TV would be turned off.
    Any "veteran" survivor will play into this version of Sadako identically to how they play into her now. Grab tape, do gen, deposit tape.

    • Only one (was all) TVs spread condemned.

    My guy, what? 1.0 Sadako was atrociously bad and the only way she was playable was through iri tape, expert TV control with you turning them on and off with TP's and old iri tape, the old decent condemn gain while holding a tape AND old Ring drawing. You want to bring back 1.0 Sadako condemn push without her iri addon, without her map control and without old ring drawing? These suggested changes would render her actually unplayable.

    • Hooking a survivor (with a tape) gives all other survivors 1 stack of condemned. (new, ring drawing basekit)
    • On the second hook all (was 3) condemned stacks get locked in.

    Fine changes but it doesn't matter with the previous changes.

    • Every 60-90s survivors receive a stack of condemned passively. When a survivor is in chase, on hook or carries a tape their timer is paused. (new)

    This would further complicate her power on a killer that's already to complex for most players.

    You're overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be overcomplicated. Right now she is almost perfect (ignoring her terrible addons) from an overall perspective, BHVR just deleted the thing from the PTB that would've made her great.

    There just needs to be a downside to holding a tape or counterplay to it, that's all. A very simple solution would be bring back tape breaking and turn on the TV's the tape turned off.

    Alternatively increase the insert animation so you can't do it during the recovery but can still do it in chase if you play well (could even make it so it's faster than the hit recovery normally but if you are hit/injured, it takes longer to deposit). Then getting hooked with a tape locks in all stacks of condemn and breaks the tape so now if you're caught out with a tape and high condemn you need to outplay Sadako to get the tape off rather than now where you just shift W to the TV and deposit it free and if you're caught out, who cares because it only locks in 3 stacks of condemn?

    Then adjust the weird things in her kit like flickering during vaulting, directional Lullaby and she'll be a fantastic stealth killer with counterplay for both her and the survivor.

    While demanifested, the visible duration gets reduced to 1-1,2 seconds (was 1,5s).

    You misunderstood something here. It didn‘t suggest reducing the invisible duration. It is the visable duration that gets reduced. This would make her invisibility happen more often.

    I have played Sadako 1.0 a lot and there survivors didn‘t grab tapes aside from removing condemned or being scared of Sadako coming out of the TV next to you. Passive condemned would finally allow her to use her TVs, which gives her a lot better mobility and allows to spread condemned more often. Currently any experienced survivor will just turn of all TVs and make both aspects of her power completely useless, so I really don’t get how you call that version more useless than what we currently have. It doesn‘t matter whether or not you spread condemned via all TVs when survivors will never get affected by it.

    In the addon changes I brought back the second version of ring drawing and a new version of her first iri tape. Of course I couldn‘t fully return them as they were for obvious reasons.

    This would further complicate her power on a killer that's already to complex for most players.

    Why would this make her more complex? It is just a passive timer that slowly increases condemned, which is very manageable. You don’t even need to know why your condemned increased in my version, because you can’t abuse it against less experienced players like in the current version. All you need to know is that you have to remove condemned in time, which isn’t complicated. The current version is much more confusing with having to turn off TVs at all times.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @Blueberry said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910932#Comment_3910932

    Sorry I’ve been trying to respond from my phone and I’m getting typos/autocorrect messing up some things I’m typing.

    Passive condemn is free. Tape destruction on hit actually takes skill. Saying I’m acting like hits are difficult when they’re not I think is a bit disingenuous. If we’re going to say hits aren’t taking skill compared to passive condemn then what is “skillful” or difficult in dbd? As far as dbd goes getting a hit is one of the better skill representations the game has. That would be like saying pain res is “free” because the hit/down didn’t take any skill or wasn’t difficult, of which I’d disagree.

    Again, I’m not disagreeing with you about TVs being easy to find. I agree we don’t need the auras, personally. What I’m telling you is that bhvr does not agree. They think having auras hidden IS too difficult for new/bad survivors. This isn’t going to change.

    The other core problems I’m trying to focus on are those listed in my fixes. After tv auras, those are the next core issues since tv auras realistically won’t be changed.

    The point of passive condemned being free or not isn’t important. My point is how else do you want to make her TVs not permanently turned off? Or are you just fine with her teleport being literally unusable to chase survivors and only there to spam to death if they are dumb enough to not turn of TVs?

    I‘m trying to find a good middle ground where her teleport isn‘t useless to chase survivors, condemned isn’t too oppressive/abusable against less experienced players and where her condemned/her power as a whole is not just a minor slowdown.

  • Blueberry Blueberry

    @Langweilig said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910964#Comment_3910964

    The point of passive condemned being free or not isn’t important. My point is how else do you want to make her TVs not permanently turned off? Or are you just fine with her teleport being literally unusable to chase survivors and only there to spam to death if they are dumb enough to not turn of TVs?

    I‘m trying to find a good middle ground where her teleport isn‘t useless to chase survivors, condemned isn’t too oppressive/abusable against less experienced players and where her condemned/her power as a whole is not just a minor slowdown.

    I don’t agree that her TVs are permanently off right now. I use them for lots of chases. Just unfortunate it generally needs Fingernails.

    I don’t think it’s useless for chases. It could be better though, but that’s why I mentioned removing the directional teleport to give it more mind games. I’d be fine with removing the sound of it entirely as well. Similar result.

    I think your version would be significantly more oppressive to new/bad survivors than what we have now.

    I do agree her condemn should waste more of their time than it does now. That’s what tape destruction solves.

  • YayC YayC

    @Langweilig said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910942#Comment_3910942

    While demanifested, the visible duration gets reduced to 1-1,2 seconds (was 1,5s).

    You misunderstood something here. It didn‘t suggest reducing the invisible duration. It is the visable duration that gets reduced. This would make her invisibility happen more often.

    I have played Sadako 1.0 a lot and there survivors didn‘t grab tapes aside from removing condemned or being scared of Sadako coming out of the TV next to you. Passive condemned would finally allow her to use her TVs, which gives her a lot better mobility and allows to spread condemned more often. Currently any experienced survivor will just turn of all TVs and make both aspects of her power completely useless, so I really don’t get how you call that version more useless than what we currently have. It doesn‘t matter whether or not you spread condemned via all TVs when survivors will never get affected by it.

    In the addon changes I brought back the second version of ring drawing and a new version of her first iri tape. Of course I couldn‘t fully return them as they were for obvious reasons.

    This would further complicate her power on a killer that's already to complex for most players.

    Why would this make her more complex? It is just a passive timer that slowly increases condemned, which is very manageable. You don’t even need to know why your condemned increased in my version, because you can’t abuse it against less experienced players like in the current version. All you need to know is that you have to remove condemned in time, which isn’t complicated. The current version is much more confusing with having to turn off TVs at all times.

    You're right I did misunderstand the first point, that's completely on me. I will say however, because it's equal right now it makes doing the mindgame alittle easier because it's better for the muscle memory knowing it's the same time for both visible and invisible. If they were different I have a feeling it would make trying to go off muscle memory (and building that in the first place) more difficult. Either way, I do think if they actually bothered to fix the duration she is unseen then deman as a mechanic would be fine.

    The passive condemn on Sadako 1.0 did work to stop survivors grabbing tapes, but you're solution doesn't push as much passive condemn as 1.0 holding a tape that is the problem. If you just grabbed a tape in 1.0, you would be condemned long before the generator was completed because it built very quickly. 1 stack every 25-35 seconds they wouldn't even be half condemned by the time the gen is completed so there would be no threat in grabbing the tape to do the generator, that's the issue with your proposed changes. Now this would be okay if pushing condemn was easier than 1.0 to make up for the lack of passive condemn, but you want to make it just as difficult by only pushing it on the 1 TV AND removing the TV control you get as Sadako by manually turning them off.

    This would also mean you would have a very similar amount of map pressure you do now because the tapes would still hold no threat so everyone would still instantly turn them off to do a gen, the exact issue we have which is why it's more useless.

    Right now I can zone survivors towards my TV and with tape copy, push multiple stacks onto them with the same TV by zoning them toward it and teleporting which makes them panic thinking I TP'd on the TV near them, then they run away as a TP still getting the stack. They realise I didn't teleport there so run back towards it (since they are usually trying to cleanse and need to run by the TV to get to theirs or grab a tape) and then I'll TP out that TV which gives a hit with fingernails.

    You can also use main TV locations to push multiple stacks on high value areas such as shack and main building, now this alone gives more pressure than a survivor running with a tape in your proposed change for 1 minute.

    Now this isn't to say this current version is perfect, it absoloutely isn't like I said (idk why they removed full condemn locking from the PTB), but the point is right now even in her terrible state (the worst she's ever been from a strength standpoint outside the 2 weeks after the PTB) you would still push far more condemn than your proposed change simply because it's got all the limitations of 1.0, none of the addons of 1.0 and none of the improved active condemn pushing of 2.0 or 3.1.

    The reason it makes it more complex is there is way more moving parts. 1.0 Sadako she tp's and turns off tv's. If she tp's near the tv you're near you get a stack of condemn. If you hold a tape you'll see you slowly gain condemn over time because it's gradual.

    2.0 you get a stack if she tp's. If you hold a tape you don't get a stack when she TP's but getting hit gives you 2 stacks.

    3.1 if you're near a turned on TV you gain a stack. The tape is only used to cleanse. If you're hooked you gain 3 stacks of condemn.

    Yours basekit has passive condemn which goes up 1 stack every 25-35 seconds so people will randomly get a stack after x amount of time (unless you mean it goes up like 1.0 just at the speed of 1 stack per 25-35 seconds but you didn't specify so I'm going off you're explanation at face value). This alone would be very confusing if you've not read her power.

    Not only this but you get passive condemn without even interacting with the tapes at all. Meaning no matter what you do you'll be gaining passive condemn.

    Not only this but if someone is hooked with a tape everyone gets a stack meaning there's now 2 instances where you'll get a stack without Sadako teleporting. Then you have the 1.0 condemn push which is fine.

    You have the condemn lock on second hook which means again, would be super confusing if you haven't read the patch notes (which btw I didn't even notice on first read this was only on second hook. You've gotten the exact same problem current condemn locking has where the locked in stacks only becomes useful 2nd stage and at that point, there's no point in mori'ing them. The whole value of the condemn mechanic is not needing to 3 hook to kill somebody, that's what makes it a threat of a mechanic).

    Then you have she can teleport but wont turn off the TV and now that TV won't push condemn which means again another layer of complexity to the power where sometimes you'll get a stack when she TP's near you, sometimes you wont.

    So there is now 4 separate conditions that push condemn onto the player basekit compared to usually 1 or 2. Even with addons, it never exceeded 3 in prior versions of Sadako, this is objectively way more complex and way more things to keep track off for both parties all while never actually pushing enough condemn for it to be a real threat.

    With regards to the addons I don't know where you've done your proposed addon changes but that's an entire post within itself since BHVR have nerfed all her old meta addons while not adjusting any of the other addons with the reworks so most of them no longer make sense since they were designed for 1.0 Sadako.

  • Langweilig Langweilig

    @YayC said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910965#Comment_3910965

    You're right I did misunderstand the first point, that's completely on me. I will say however, because it's equal right now it makes doing the mindgame alittle easier because it's better for the muscle memory knowing it's the same time for both visible and invisible. If they were different I have a feeling it would make trying to go off muscle memory (and building that in the first place) more difficult. Either way, I do think if they actually bothered to fix the duration she is unseen then deman as a mechanic would be fine.

    The passive condemn on Sadako 1.0 did work to stop survivors grabbing tapes, but you're solution doesn't push as much passive condemn as 1.0 holding a tape that is the problem. If you just grabbed a tape in 1.0, you would be condemned long before the generator was completed because it built very quickly. 1 stack every 25-35 seconds they wouldn't even be half condemned by the time the gen is completed so there would be no threat in grabbing the tape to do the generator, that's the issue with your proposed changes. Now this would be okay if pushing condemn was easier than 1.0 to make up for the lack of passive condemn, but you want to make it just as difficult by only pushing it on the 1 TV AND removing the TV control you get as Sadako by manually turning them off.

    This would also mean you would have a very similar amount of map pressure you do now because the tapes would still hold no threat so everyone would still instantly turn them off to do a gen, the exact issue we have which is why it's more useless.

    Right now I can zone survivors towards my TV and with tape copy, push multiple stacks onto them with the same TV by zoning them toward it and teleporting which makes them panic thinking I TP'd on the TV near them, then they run away as a TP still getting the stack. They realise I didn't teleport there so run back towards it (since they are usually trying to cleanse and need to run by the TV to get to theirs or grab a tape) and then I'll TP out that TV which gives a hit with fingernails.

    You can also use main TV locations to push multiple stacks on high value areas such as shack and main building, now this alone gives more pressure than a survivor running with a tape in your proposed change for 1 minute.

    Now this isn't to say this current version is perfect, it absoloutely isn't like I said (idk why they removed full condemn locking from the PTB), but the point is right now even in her terrible state (the worst she's ever been from a strength standpoint outside the 2 weeks after the PTB) you would still push far more condemn than your proposed change simply because it's got all the limitations of 1.0, none of the addons of 1.0 and none of the improved active condemn pushing of 2.0 or 3.1.

    The reason it makes it more complex is there is way more moving parts. 1.0 Sadako she tp's and turns off tv's. If she tp's near the tv you're near you get a stack of condemn. If you hold a tape you'll see you slowly gain condemn over time because it's gradual.

    2.0 you get a stack if she tp's. If you hold a tape you don't get a stack when she TP's but getting hit gives you 2 stacks.

    3.1 if you're near a turned on TV you gain a stack. The tape is only used to cleanse. If you're hooked you gain 3 stacks of condemn.

    Yours basekit has passive condemn which goes up 1 stack every 25-35 seconds so people will randomly get a stack after x amount of time (unless you mean it goes up like 1.0 just at the speed of 1 stack per 25-35 seconds but you didn't specify so I'm going off you're explanation at face value). This alone would be very confusing if you've not read her power.

    Not only this but you get passive condemn without even interacting with the tapes at all. Meaning no matter what you do you'll be gaining passive condemn.

    Not only this but if someone is hooked with a tape everyone gets a stack meaning there's now 2 instances where you'll get a stack without Sadako teleporting. Then you have the 1.0 condemn push which is fine.

    You have the condemn lock on second hook which means again, would be super confusing if you haven't read the patch notes (which btw I didn't even notice on first read this was only on second hook. You've gotten the exact same problem current condemn locking has where the locked in stacks only becomes useful 2nd stage and at that point, there's no point in mori'ing them. The whole value of the condemn mechanic is not needing to 3 hook to kill somebody, that's what makes it a threat of a mechanic).

    Then you have she can teleport but wont turn off the TV and now that TV won't push condemn which means again another layer of complexity to the power where sometimes you'll get a stack when she TP's near you, sometimes you wont.

    So there is now 4 separate conditions that push condemn onto the player basekit compared to usually 1 or 2. Even with addons, it never exceeded 3 in prior versions of Sadako, this is objectively way more complex and way more things to keep track off for both parties all while never actually pushing enough condemn for it to be a real threat.

    With regards to the addons I don't know where you've done your proposed addon changes but that's an entire post within itself since BHVR have nerfed all her old meta addons while not adjusting any of the other addons with the reworks so most of them no longer make sense since they were designed for 1.0 Sadako.

    The addon pass is in the first comment of this discussion.

    I removed the part with infinitely teleporting to a Tv.

    Yours basekit has passive condemn which goes up 1 stack every 25-35 seconds so people will randomly get a stack after x amount of time (unless you mean it goes up like 1.0 just at the speed of 1 stack per 25-35 seconds but you didn't specify so I'm going off you're explanation at face value).

    What do I need to clarify there? I thought it was obvious that it works like in 1.0. Why do you say it goes up randomly?

    About the locking in of all stacks. It would be great, but I don‘t see it happening, which is why I suggested it on second. There it doesn‘t make a difference whether you hook or mori the survivor.

    My version wouldn‘t require to understand why you gain condemned, because it wouldn‘t be so fast. The only thing you would need to understand is, remove condemned before it gets too high. This makes tapes much easier to understand. Unlike in the current version, where you need to understand to turn TVs off in advance. Otherwise you will reach 7 stacks faster than you blink.

  • Skitten56 Skitten56

    @tuttoinunavolta said:

    I've been maining Sadako since her first iteration and im really happy with the spot she's currently in. It sucks that she's been bugged since her last rework though, we still haven't had the chance to try the effects of her demanifested flickering buffs since last year. I think if that ever gets fixed (Reiko's Watch's fix was also just partial) she'll be almost perfect.

    The only complaints I have are:

    • Iri Tape wasn't well-thought out. The game-changing idea was great, but the fact condemn doesn't exist anymore means the survivors can just pick up a tape, shut down every single TVs in the nearby area and completely nullify her teleport power with absolutely zero downsides. They should make it so that when a survivor is holding a tape, they can't turn off other TVs aside from the one that's highlighted (and the one they picked the tape from, of course). That or give them 2% of hindered for every extra TV they turn off, I don't know. Turning TVs off against Iri Tape is just too free as of now.
    • Tape Editing Deck is a bit silly. They left this add-on unchanged between the various reworks, but now it straight up just gives a big starting disadvantage to Sadako. The 6 seconds reading AFTER a survivor cleanses (thus, removing Sadako's one way to get to them quickly) is also too measly of an advantage for that big starting disadvantage, especially since this is a purple add-on too. An entire rework would be better but I think even simply doubling the aura-reading time would make the add-on a viable option.
    • The time it takes for survivors to reinsert a tape should be increased, just by half a second really. In the current state it's a bit too easy to just put tapes back in her face during a chase. I had a game as survivor where I had 5 stacks of Condemned on me, parried her attack with Dead Hard in front of a tv and managed to nullify the condemn progress before she could down me again. I think a tiny tiny tweak, to make that slightly harder but not impossible, would be ideal.

    As of now, all her add-ons that affect demanifestation/manifestation flickering are kinda pointless just because of her long-standing bug. But if that gets fixed, I believe some of them (mainly Reiko's Watch) will become very much worth using. As of now, there's little reason to not just run Nails + Iri Tape every match.

    They should make it so that when a survivor is holding a tape, they can't turn off other TVs aside from the one that's highlighted (and the one they picked the tape from, of course).

    Been arguing for this change to Iri-tape since the rework. Would solve one of the main issues with the add-on and help offset the lack of slowdown due to the more or less removal of the condemn mechanic.

    I love Iri-tape add-on as a concept but right now smart survivors can just abuse it and potentially leave you more or less powerless.

  • Skitten56 Skitten56

    @Blueberry said:

    As Skitten mentioned I don't think they would do this much of an extreme change and tbh I don't think she needs this much anyway.

    Some very solid addon changes though. She currently has a lot that make no sense.

    I actually like her current teleporting. I do not think it's mindless at all, there is depth to it. Onryo has a much higher skill ceiling than most people realize.

    You touched on some if not most of these, but I think these are core issues that need fixing rather than a heavy rework:

    • Tape destruction on hit returned - She currently has basically no counter play to tapes. Your only "counter play" is preventing them from picking it up in the first place. Once they have it you're screwed. Hit destruction gives her some agency over this. I think this is fair given she doesn't have "real" anti loop so hits don't come easy. The alternative to this is passive condemn with tapes coming back but I don't like this as much because it's free, hit destruction alternatively is not free, it actually requires the Onryo to play well. If they aren't willing to budge on this Ring Drawing should absolutely be base kit.
    • Remove lullaby - This makes absolutely zero sense. There is no point in being Undetectable if you put out a lullaby telling them you're there. You might as well just remove the Undetectable at that point because it's the same thing as a terror radius. It being directional makes no sense either but the lullaby has no point in existing anyway. As long as the lullaby exists she isn't a stealth killer. Everyone knows she's coming and pre runs.
    • Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items - God this is a pet peeve of mine. Anything that adds chests be it coins or event offerings screws over our TV spawns and throws them all away from gens. This also affects killers like Xeno and Plague in similar ways. Just make it prioritize spawning killer items before chests instead of after. That easy.

    Her Manifest/Demanist is on a verge of useless and isn't a real anti loop in any shape or form but if they fix the aforementioned things then she doesn't need this. She shouldn't have good anti loop if she gets the above changes since we need to focus on making her strengths strong but her weaknesses apparent. Her bad anti loop is her weakness.

    Her directional teleport sound is also a major issue and defeats the point entirely, however I don't want to get too greedy. Manifesting/Demanifesting also shouldn't slow her down for how trash it is. If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.

    She has a ton of addon issues as you touched on and many of them look great. I'll save my thoughts on all her addons for another post as this is already a lot.

    Her Remote Control and Bloody Fingernails are also just so good and so pivotal to her play style I don't see how I would ever take them off no matter what improvements we made to her other addons. They feel too required for things she needs. She doesn't have room to run any other flavor addons. So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.

    You have convinced me that breaking tapes on hit is healthy with 3.0 provided they don't get stacks upon hit. I was worried about how it was implemented with 2.0 and cautious but you made a great argument.

    Grabbing tapes and removing condemn, sometimes even mid-chase is pretty easy right now. Such a mechanic would make it so survivors can't just hold W to the TV if they have high condemn and instead would actually have to engage a bit more with the killer and consider sneaking around to avoid getting caught. And as you have mentioned, even if they do get spotted doing a tape run, Sadako being an m1 killer makes it difficult for her to get hits.

    As such I support having her power make it so that upon m1 hits, tapes survivors hare holding break to her power; if not basekit, at least make it an add-on.

  • Blueberry Blueberry

    @Skitten56 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910753#Comment_3910753

    You have convinced me that breaking tapes on hit is healthy with 3.0 provided they don't get stacks upon hit. I was worried about how it was implemented with 2.0 and cautious but you made a great argument.

    Grabbing tapes and removing condemn, sometimes even mid-chase is pretty easy right now. Such a mechanic would make it so survivors can't just hold W to the TV if they have high condemn and instead would actually have to engage a bit more with the killer and consider sneaking around to avoid getting caught. And as you have mentioned, even if they do get spotted doing a tape run, Sadako being an m1 killer makes it difficult for her to get hits.

    As such I support having her power make it so that upon m1 hits, tapes survivors hare holding break to her power; if not basekit, at least make it an add-on.

    Yeah I'd be okay if they made it not give a stack when you destroy it. The fact of them having to waste time finding another and that you prevented their stacks clear is good enough to me. She's just an m1 killer with no "real" anti loop, so to me this is fair. The tape insertion speed is an issue, however if we got tape destruction on hit then the insertion speed is acceptable. If we don't get tape destruction then yeah it definitely needs to be longer.Them putting it in right in your face is quite annoying.

  • Skitten56 Skitten56

    @Blueberry said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911556#Comment_3911556

    Yeah I'd be okay if they made it not give a stack when you destroy it. The fact of them having to waste time finding another and that you prevented their stacks clear is good enough to me. She's just an m1 killer with no "real" anti loop, so to me this is fair. The tape insertion speed is an issue, however if we got tape destruction on hit then the insertion speed is acceptable. If we don't get tape destruction then yeah it definitely needs to be longer.Them putting it in right in your face is quite annoying.

    Completely agree, should be one or the other.

    As it stands now unless they are injured before you find them, they pretty much can just remove the condemn in our face in exchange for a health-state. Even worse is that if a team is coordinated enough and understands her power, they'll turn off the target TV beforehand to deny the teleport, making even trading condemn for a health-state not guaranteed.

    Letting us break tapes or increasing the insert time would at least let us gave a better chance at punishing survivors when they misplay and ignore condemn until too late.

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