Strong killers no and "fun" killers yes...
Designing based around something extremely subjective is just bad I assume Ghost face was made around "fun" as well?
Designing based around something extremely subjective is just bad I assume Ghost face was made around "fun" as well?
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The idea is solid. Execution is piss poor though.
I agree the idea was good but yeah he wasn't designed well at all
At this point we are just digging up the horse to beat it some more. I’m also not happy with the character, but can’t we wait to see what they say on it this week?
I think i'm kinda done with trying to get stronger Killers from them.
I'm only voting with my wallet now. Or, y'know, with my virtual money.
He won't get any meaningful changes without a rework and that would make him average. And the fact he is supposedly a stealth killer that is loud as hell is counter productive.
Well,they are balancing killers around fun.
Getting genrushed is actually pretty fun. Seeing all those gens pop... you can almost dance to the sounds that popped gens do
Lol well they won't rework the game as Cote wouldn't want that it would be too expensive. Actually that was their excuse for not making a four legged killer as well lol
Half the "fun" of facing killers is adapting to the challenges their unique powers and play-styles present. No one wants a killer who's only role in the game is to give survivors an easy win because that provides no challenge. Of course no one wants a killer who steamrolls the survivors every game with no counter-play either because not only is that not a challenge for the killer player, but it's not fun to go up against as survivor. The devs have chosen to design their killers around how fun it will be to go up against them and adapt to their abilities/play-styles, but in doing so they often screw up and forget that they also need to provide a challenge to the survivors. IMO, they should make all killers a decent challenge for low-mid ranks, but have the potential to compete in high ranks with the aid of add-ons and perks.
Take Spirit for example: Right off the bat she was decent at the low-mid ranks without aid of add-ons and perks, but once you obtained those, and got used to her play-style, she became a real threat that can hold her own at the high ranks, while still maintaining plenty of counter-play options that survivors take advantage of. She's one of the few killers in the game that feels like she's in a good spot balance wise, and the same goes for Huntress, and HillBilly.
I feel like when it comes to questioning how "Fun" a killer is, they should also consider which Side finds them fun and why? Pre-updated Legion was fun for the killer players but not the survivors. Pre-updated Trapper was fun for the survivors, but not the killer, and the "Why" usually boils down to how easy they are to play as and oppose. Legion was easy to play and win with, Trapper was hard to play and easy to win against as survivor. Much of the community feedback base their "Fun" on whether or not their side can win as or against the killer, and how easy or hard that is to accomplish, but the reality of it is that if a killer doesn't have the potential to be competitive at the mid-high ranks, they are a bad killer no matter how much "fun" was put into their design. It's erroneous for anyone to try and sway the devs balance designs on a killer based on how easy they are to win with or against, and say its for the sake of "fun". We should instead be focusing on how Strong a killer is and whether or not they can provide a good challenge in the mid-high ranks without being overpowered.
A Strong killer like Spirit presents a challenge and is Fun for both sides: to learn and play as, or to oppose and adapt to. Basically what I'm getting at is that a killer who is strong and a challenge is often more "fun" and balanced for everyone, whereas a killer who's weak with only a "fun" mechanic in their design gets trashed by the community because they can't present an adequate challenge for survivors. When they designed Ghostface for the PTB, they gave him a "Fun" power with the potential to be Strong, but overcompensated on the counter-play for the survivors, which resulted in everyone trashing him in Live streams, and on the forums because he didn't present a challenge to the average mid-rank survivor.
(TL;DR) So to sum this all up: Strong killers present a challenge to survivors which is a major part of how fun they are to play as and oppose. When the devs design a killer they should make the mechanics for them based on "fun" for both sides, but also consider if they are strong enough to be decent in the mid ranks, and have the potential to be competitive in the high ranks when aided with perks and add-on's. If they did that, then it would be the closest this game gets to actually being balanced, and would be fun for new and seasoned players alike.
I kinda missed the days where you felt like a killer broke some part of the survivor game.
Myers forces survivors to be vigilant and look around
Doctor deletes stealth
Nurse - What's a pallet?
Trapper - Yes, please look behind you at me as I herd you toward traps.
Ect.
Freakin' Ghost face is like the old Wraith - he just has this loud noise that screams HEY GUISE I AM OVER HERE, COME JUKE ME!
He has the POTENTIAL to be a really powerful Killer if done right.
Unfortunately, that's not how he is right now. Pretty much everyone has spoken about the same fixes to death, but obviously, looking at him to disable his power is stupid, he's a stealth Killer with no stealth capability, the Exposed is too short, and he barely has time to lean around corners.
If they could fix these, Ghost Face could be really fun, and at least a mid-tier Killer. Right now, he's just useless gutter trash.
Oh, sorry. That was inaccurate. Let me fix it. COMPLETELY useless gutter trash.
I'm sure everyone here has noticed the pattern where killers that are strong are generally deemed 'unfun' by a lot of survivors. I won't mention any names, but if you look out for them, certain streamers will also claim this on their streams fairly openly. Typically nurse and spirit are mentioned. Let's think about this for a second, what do these two killers have in common that make them 'unfun' for survivors?
They mitigate or ignore traditional survivor strategies. Ah, bingo. The two killers that combat the most common tactics and provide a consistently challenging, high risk experience are the most 'unfun'. I find this very interesting, but also depressing. Then again, I want a challenge and to have the ######### scared out of me whenever possible, so both of these killers are fine by me (naturally, I do like variety in the killers I face, but that's.. a whole other can of worms).
It's a sad direction the devs is taking. i mean high tier killer can be fun like billy is it's just, devs are too coward to make killers fun well for killer. Clown isn't fun because he is weak , legion isn't fun because of the nerfs.
What i'm trying to say is what make a killer fun, it's the player who play it for example : if a esport player play against potatoes which side will have the fun. obviously the esport one right. it's the same for killer but when a killer is badly designed that's devs fault for both making him not fun and not strong at the same time.
@xllxENIGMAxllx The most fun games I've had as a survivor have been against the strongest killers in the game. An easy escape against a Legion ain't something that leaves me feeling satisfied. Winning against an Omega-blink Nurse.. that's something.
Constantly handicapping new killers out of fear that they'll end up as another Hillybilly or Spirit.. that's just wrong. They should design killers to be strong! The fun will follow suit.
@Boss Just tagging you again since you said in an other thread that people couldn't tag you.
Alot of the gripes ppl are making about Ghostface has been noted already by the devs. This is the reason its a PTB ppl. Theyre actively taking notes and adjusting it so hes in a better position when its time to release him, or soon after. They KNOW he makes too much sound for a killer designed to be stealthy. They noted that problem, so lets see what they do about it. They KNOW its too easy to break him out of his power, and have already stated that its something else to work on.
Point being...stop being hyper critical about work in progress. Give your feedback about PTB material through the correct channels and give them time to adjust accordingly.
To be blunt, I don't think a killer without a movement ability can be top tier. The clown essentially stops the worst parts of pallet looping altogether and even he isn't top tier. A killer crouching around the map at reduced speed is mostly wasting their own time, just because any time they'll save via the stealth ability is already wasted by all the extra time it takes to sneak up on someone.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. You can have a powerful killer that's still fun to play against. I personally love playing against the hillbilly, for example, and he's one of the best. I'm not sure how this idea of fun only started but it's definitely not the case. Strength is also taken into consideration. This is something that's applied across the entire game too, not just killers. A perk like Decisive Strike was powerful, but it certainly wasn't fun for the killer, so it was changed to be much for fair with added counterplay. Now it remains powerful when you pull it off, but it's also possible to play around it.
With that in mind, we missed the mark with this one and we're actively working on changes as we speak. New killers change a lot while in development and what we're playing one week might be totally different the next. We always try to give you the most up to date build in the PTB, but that unfortunately means that some issues may arise; detecting Ghost Face before he activates his ability, for example, or even balance.
The goal is always to make something fun and powerful, not just one or the other.
@Peanits Might wanna tell the other Devs (whom may this concern) that then, cause from what we interpreted their words as, we heard that they only want fun but not/less viable killers.
You guys seem to hit the mark with the current Freddy rework, and I'm grateful for that. As for the changes Ghostface will get, that remains to be seen. I hope you guys take your time aiming before firing, and not just firing blindly.
"You can have a powerful killer that's still fun to play against"
I'd say people are upset because this philosophy hasn't been applied since Spirit.
"I'm not sure how this idea of fun only started but it's definitely not the case"
This came about because it was literally quoted from Mathieu Cote on stream.
@se05239 i totally agree wraith have potential to be high tier i mean.
Legion can also be high tier if they do the right fix but we know he will never happen. Remove the full gauge condition to use to power then i'm happy. I want legion to be able to run though the maps with frenzy and apply effect to every one.
Can somebody provide a link and a time stamp where Cote said this? I see it spouted a lot around here and I'd love to hear it for myself.
There was a couple times but here is one of them.
https://youtu.be/AauEJmetASo?t=2781
@Peanits Missed the mark with this one? You've missed the mark with a lot of killers lately. Only the Spirit managed to end up good out of the latest bunch.
IIRC, it was Cote who said something along the lines of "our goal is fun killers, not necessarily viable ones." In his defense, he may have misspoke or misstated the devs' intentions, but that's what the killer community has latched onto. I want to support the game but it's hard to justify spending money on killers that I don't feel like I can use at my rank.
If we're referring to the "Play With the Devs" stream, he explicitly said at the beginning of that quote that it is his personal belief. He is not a competitive player, he knows that (even said it himself right after), he plays for fun.
I think killers have followed the same path for quite some time now (Underpowered at release, buffed, may/may not be half-decent now).
I feel like the process should go in reverse, to where the killer is good at release, great even, possibly even a little OP! Then, it should be NERFED accordingly.
Also, for the love of god, BHVR needs to have a group of comp players sign a NDA and beta test killers for them before the PTB. Hopefully, this would prevent such an atrocity from happening again.
Please keep in mind that this goes right back at you: Phase Walking demands that the Spirit too flips a coin and if she calls it wrong, she loses the chance to hit the Survivor she's going after. She is all about the mindgame, which I consider the fun part of her power, both when versing her as Survivor or playing her myself.
Then his personal belief is what the balance team has been agreeing with and going by since most the killers released have followed that principle.
@Peanits Other devs share his beliefs as we got to hear "How fun Legion was" and "it was fun stabbing people" and such on Livestream.
Was he fun? I'll let the forum history tell the tale.
I dislike that he claims that every next Killer needs to be stronger than the previous one.
I personally couldn't care less if every single upcoming Killer would be weaker than Nurse.
But we recently get nothing but Killers on the same level as the shittiest version of Wraith.
Mcote: "But it's fun to puke on them, and to hit all Survivors in one sprint, and to have your Power cancelled as Ghostface by simply being looked at!"
It is...when it brings good results.
I 100% agree with this. However this will affect sales of the DLC because people will buy the Killer with the intention of going into games and destroying survivors, but sooner or later the nerfs will come to balance the killer and all the people that purchased the DLC will complain that they only bought because it was a good killer and now is nerfed and demand refunds even though its in the EULA that balances changes could happen at any time. It will cause a huge outrage in the community that they keep nerfing all the killers that they keep purchasing. It's safer for BHVR to release weak and then buff because who is going to complain about a buff to a killer they purchased opposed to a nerf after already buying.
"I dislike that he claims that every next Killer needs to be stronger than the previous one."
I dislike that he states that as well because no one is asking for that at all. What we are asking for is simply rank 1 viable killers, not killers better and better than the previous ones. He misunderstands what people want.
I just want viable killers that can be fun not ######### killers like jokeface that are neither.
People just want killers that can be good without so many stupid drawbacks. Here's an example that will make Wraith GOD TIER!
Remove slowdown on UNCLOAK. Simple.
That one change would make him god tier.
And that is a common mistake some people make.
The forum communitys not always reflect the mindset of a community, so crazy it first sounds.
The reason for this is simple = The most people say nothing if they are happy about something, or if they don't care about something, but in the moment they thinking negative about something - then you can bet, they are in the forums to write their postings and threads.
What that means is, you can always assume that the majority of people stays neutral, or friendly to a topic, if the negative feedback is not overwhelming, like by the ending of mass effect 3, or by the release of fallout 76 - to name a few examples here.
To know how the Legion was, you needed to build your own opinion - without influenced by those whiney influencers that only care for their view numbers - and play as a Legion.
I had play the Legion pre nerf as main and the overwhelming majority in the endgame chat after matches against me, were positive and happy - besides the 2 times in my "killer life" where I had facecamp someone and also a few times where I have met survivor that have seem to be in general stressed out.
I can remember one, - to name an example - he called me a tunneler, but was it my mistake, that he had run more as 2 times direct in my arms? Serious, it is hard to kill someone not who is literally running into your arms!
Anyways. If you really like to know how people are thinking about a killer, play that killer by yourself and take a look into your endgame chat and take minus the comments that maybe had come up because of your toxic play style, if you prefer to camp as example.