@Orion what I’m saying is a forced objective, and the reason I say noed would need a rework is because it would make survivors life hell if they had to do gens and a forced new objective (assuming this new objective took let’s say 40-60 seconds) so this is why I say for a noed rework if the forced second objective was added.
@Eveline this is a balance discussion, and a legion rework could make him more balanced/ funner for those who really hate him, I personally have no problem with him. I also said my reasoning for a noed rework. @Arroz yes assuming only one person is cleansing totems, however if the whole team does them then it isn’t really breaking a sweat.
This is just complaints I’ve seen from both sides, so I would like to have a discussion about how to balance/make these things more fun. (I find legion fun to play against and noed adds suspense)
@Mister_xD I was mainly referring to the people who go on to threads and refuse to see the points. Arguing is allowed if it is actually part of a discussion.
I've seen these ideas floating around for a while, though I'm guessing nothing's being done about it 'cause the community is divided. If the survivors are given more things they're required to do, stronger killers should be nerfed 'cause otherwise people are just going to take advantage of that. Legion needs a rework, too. He's weak and annoying to play against at the same time, somehow. Honestly I'd be up for him having a normal speed, same terror-radious, and a rework of his ability so he'll be better able to get everyone (longer time), but tunneling on person just to DW them repeatedly won't be rewarding. We could make the mending action require more than just holding m1, too, and make it longer.
Adding additional objectives and then reworking NOED as part of the "rebalance accordingly" part of the change seems fair to me so long as the secondary objective is made right
What specifically needs to be nerfed/buffed in response to a hypothetical secondary objective depends on what the objective is however. So you cannot just assert that we need to make some specific change (such as a nurse rework) in response to a secondary objective that hasn't been specified yet
Then they should take longer. Doesn't mean a secondary objective doesn't already exist.
Unrelated. Totems are not a secondary objective because they are not an objective at all. Cleaning totems does not bring you any closer to winning (even if it does reduce potential failure points)
@Orion I am saying a forced secondary objective and I’m imagining it would take 40-60 seconds and the possibility of at least three of these being put into a match.
What specifically needs to be nerfed/buffed in response to a hypothetical secondary objective depends on what the objective is however. So you cannot just assert that we need to make some specific change (such as a nurse rework) in response to a secondary objective that hasn't been specified yet
Fair point. What if the objective was something that would take 40-60 seconds and maybe three were in the matches? What would be your recommendation?
Unrelated. Totems are not a secondary objective because they are not an objective at all. Cleaning totems does not bring you any closer to winning (even if it does reduce potential failure points)
If forum threads are to be believed, NOED is a major issue. I'd say that alone makes them objectives.
I have a feeling they are going to release an end game on this year anniversary. That would be the perfect time to release a new concept with dedicated servers.
@Orion they did earn the 4K, but I’m saying that it would cause the game to be in the killers favor and nurse and billy wouldn’t be balanced.The whole point of this is to make lower tier killers viable and change some things that cause complaints.
@Orion they did earn the 4K, but I’m saying that it would cause killer to be in balance favor of nurse or billy did not receive minor nerfs. The whole point of this is to make lower tier killers viable and change some things that cause complaints.
You don't make low-tier killers viable by nerfing top-tier killers. As for complaints, look at the Nightmare to understand why you shouldn't make knee-jerk decisions based on complaints.
@Orion reworking legion could make him more viable, adding a secondary objective that if forced could make low tier killers more viable and as for nurse/billy they would be more balanced if they got some nerfs.
@Orion reworking legion could make him more viable, adding a secondary objective that if forced could make low tier killers more viable and as for nurse/billy they would be more balanced if they got some nerfs.
They are balanced. I'm not a good survivor and I can still juke good Nurses, so why can't you?
@Wolf74 I play both sides and I said noed would be OP if this objective was added, totems aren’t forced. I said that nurse and billy would be OP if they added this objective.
@Orion quote where I said I couldn’t. I gathered some complaints from both sides I got called biased, I realize I have more things for survivors here, but that’s because the main complaints killers have is gen rush. But with your logic I can hit survivors and kill them, they are balanced. Why can’t you kill them?
@Orion quote where I said I couldn’t. I gathered some complaints from both sides I got called biased, I realize I have more things for survivors here, but that’s because the main complaints killers have is gen rush. But with your logic I can hit survivors and kill them, they are balanced. Why can’t you kill them?
Well, people who think the Nurse is OP usually can't, so...
Survivors have complained about literally every single killer on the roster at some point. If you were to gather survivor complaints and base your balancing decisions/suggestions on that, you'd nerf every killer until they had foam swords for weapons.
@Orion you can’t have a balance discussion without including both sides. I did not just gather the whiny complaints I gathered some of the opinions of people who aren’t biased towards one side.
@Orion you can’t have a balance discussion without including both sides. I did not just gather the whiny complaints I gathered some of the opinions of people who aren’t biased towards one side.
You can, actually, because one has nothing to do with the other. We can have conversations about one subject without bringing in another 30. False equivalency is a fallacy.
@Orion the game would not be balanced if I just said ideas for killer buffs and only used killer sides complaints then that would be balanced? @orion balance requires both sides not just killers(who are indeed the weaker role right now) but you are not looking at the survivors POV you are just thinking for killers.
@Orion the game would not be balanced if I just said ideas for killer buffs and only used killer sides complaints then that would be balanced? @orion balance requires both sides not just killers(who are indeed the weaker role right now) but you are not looking at the survivors POV you are just thinking for killers.
I'm thinking of both sides. If one side is weaker, then buffing that side is the way to achieve balance. You don't balance a scale by adding weight on both sides, do you?
They dont need a second objective. Killer is fine as it is. I wonder how bad the average player is with all these cries for buffs.
Billy/nurse/noed need nerfs. Adrenaline can be nerfed then too.
Enduring probably shouldnt work against the new DS. Punishes tunneling killers and makes the game more fun for everyone.
SWF....the big issue for me is that people often use their best items with their buddies. Solos dont usually, or you may have one instaheal. With swf you can expect the full lot. Green/purple toolboxes with best add ons, instaheals, purple flashlights, coldwind offerings etc
The loops and pallets should probably be adjusted and this would easily bump up the weakest killers to decent potential.
My personal biggest issue within the game is no time pressure for the survivors.
It would be cool if there is a time objectiv to get the gens done, like 10 min or so.
This would not only solve stalling and hostage taking but also put some healthy pressure on the survivors and enable more killer strategies.
Right now you can pull of a fantastic 3 gen strat with 2-3 survivors left but you cannot leave the gens, otherwise you lose the game and there is nothing to force survivors to do gens in a certain time. So the game can be stalled indefinitely. That's no fun.
Same goes for the hatch, only the other way around.
By restricting the match time the devs can tweak the timers to get a desirable match lenght.
Right now we all agree, 3 min is unfun so is 20+ min.
If forum threads are to be believed, NOED is a major issue. I'd say that alone makes them objectives.
Forums aren't quite a representation of the games population. Also, whether or not NOED is or is not an issue has little to do with it being deemed an "objective".
Forums aren't quite a representation of the games population. Also, whether or not NOED is or is not an issue has little to do with it being deemed an "objective".
Totems are the objective. NOED is simply the thing that doing all the objectives will prevent.
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Comments
Totems are the secondary objective. Nobody does them. That's why NOED is activated.
@Orion what I’m saying is a forced objective, and the reason I say noed would need a rework is because it would make survivors life hell if they had to do gens and a forced new objective (assuming this new objective took let’s say 40-60 seconds) so this is why I say for a noed rework if the forced second objective was added.
Actually like the idea, game is just boring now for me, repair gens is boring it's just the same for 3 years!
Also @Orion totems just don’t take enough time to be considered a true secondary objective.
Actually cleanse all totems by 1 single person takes 80 seconds = 1 generator..
Another Noed and Legion thread. No thanks.
@Eveline this is a balance discussion, and a legion rework could make him more balanced/ funner for those who really hate him, I personally have no problem with him. I also said my reasoning for a noed rework. @Arroz yes assuming only one person is cleansing totems, however if the whole team does them then it isn’t really breaking a sweat.
This is just complaints I’ve seen from both sides, so I would like to have a discussion about how to balance/make these things more fun. (I find legion fun to play against and noed adds suspense)
how exactly are we supposed to have an discussion, if we are not allowed to bring up any arguments?
O.o
@Mister_xD I was mainly referring to the people who go on to threads and refuse to see the points. Arguing is allowed if it is actually part of a discussion.
I've seen these ideas floating around for a while, though I'm guessing nothing's being done about it 'cause the community is divided. If the survivors are given more things they're required to do, stronger killers should be nerfed 'cause otherwise people are just going to take advantage of that. Legion needs a rework, too. He's weak and annoying to play against at the same time, somehow. Honestly I'd be up for him having a normal speed, same terror-radious, and a rework of his ability so he'll be better able to get everyone (longer time), but tunneling on person just to DW them repeatedly won't be rewarding. We could make the mending action require more than just holding m1, too, and make it longer.
You can't have a balance dicussion about noed.
Everyone is gonna say "Cleanse the totem"
@fluffybunny I like your idea, and I agree I wish we tge community would divide ourselves less and look at it from both sides.
Adding additional objectives and then reworking NOED as part of the "rebalance accordingly" part of the change seems fair to me so long as the secondary objective is made right
What specifically needs to be nerfed/buffed in response to a hypothetical secondary objective depends on what the objective is however. So you cannot just assert that we need to make some specific change (such as a nurse rework) in response to a secondary objective that hasn't been specified yet
Then they should take longer. Doesn't mean a secondary objective doesn't already exist.
Why should a secondary objective should be tied to a rework of Noed,Nurse or Billy???
That does not make any sense.
Unrelated. Totems are not a secondary objective because they are not an objective at all. Cleaning totems does not bring you any closer to winning (even if it does reduce potential failure points)
@NuclearBurrito
Totally "related". Totems are an objective. If not, stop complaining about Noed.
Choose one.
Nurse and billy players would have 4k’s handed to them if they knew how to play, I never said rework billy/nurse I said nerf.
@Orion I am saying a forced secondary objective and I’m imagining it would take 40-60 seconds and the possibility of at least three of these being put into a match.
I want to see what happens when they put out their end game idea
Fair point. What if the objective was something that would take 40-60 seconds and maybe three were in the matches? What would be your recommendation?
@TreemanXD
"Nurse and billy players would have 4k’s handed to them if they knew how to play, I never said rework billy/nurse I said nerf."
Sorry, but I disagree. No killer gets anything "handed" to them in this game.
True, may be better to wait for the end-game change before secondary objective’s are even thought of.
@Wolf74 I said if they had the skill for said killer. If they added these secondary objective. Please try to see it from both sides POV.
If they have the skill, doesn't that mean they've earned their 4k?
If forum threads are to be believed, NOED is a major issue. I'd say that alone makes them objectives.
@Bravo0413
I have a feeling they are going to release an end game on this year anniversary. That would be the perfect time to release a new concept with dedicated servers.
@Orion they did earn the 4K, but I’m saying that it would cause the game to be in the killers favor and nurse and billy wouldn’t be balanced.The whole point of this is to make lower tier killers viable and change some things that cause complaints.
You don't make low-tier killers viable by nerfing top-tier killers. As for complaints, look at the Nightmare to understand why you shouldn't make knee-jerk decisions based on complaints.
@Orion reworking legion could make him more viable, adding a secondary objective that if forced could make low tier killers more viable and as for nurse/billy they would be more balanced if they got some nerfs.
@Orion is just right. It is really pathetic how survivor mains try to argue around it.
Killer is skilled and gets a 4K => "he did not deserve it"
Tons of Noed is op threads everyday => "Totems are no secondary objectives"
Do survivor mains notice their own flawed logic or did they just choose to ignore it?
They are balanced. I'm not a good survivor and I can still juke good Nurses, so why can't you?
@Wolf74 I play both sides and I said noed would be OP if this objective was added, totems aren’t forced. I said that nurse and billy would be OP if they added this objective.
@Orion quote where I said I couldn’t. I gathered some complaints from both sides I got called biased, I realize I have more things for survivors here, but that’s because the main complaints killers have is gen rush. But with your logic I can hit survivors and kill them, they are balanced. Why can’t you kill them?
Well, people who think the Nurse is OP usually can't, so...
Survivors have complained about literally every single killer on the roster at some point. If you were to gather survivor complaints and base your balancing decisions/suggestions on that, you'd nerf every killer until they had foam swords for weapons.
@TreemanXD
I know what you said. I just don't see a valid argument for that point.
@Orion you can’t have a balance discussion without including both sides. I did not just gather the whiny complaints I gathered some of the opinions of people who aren’t biased towards one side.
@Wolf74 well I don’t see any valid reason that I’m wrong.
You can, actually, because one has nothing to do with the other. We can have conversations about one subject without bringing in another 30. False equivalency is a fallacy.
@Orion the game would not be balanced if I just said ideas for killer buffs and only used killer sides complaints then that would be balanced? @orion balance requires both sides not just killers(who are indeed the weaker role right now) but you are not looking at the survivors POV you are just thinking for killers.
I'm thinking of both sides. If one side is weaker, then buffing that side is the way to achieve balance. You don't balance a scale by adding weight on both sides, do you?
@TreemanXD
You stated that thesis, so it is on YOU to give reasons for it.
They dont need a second objective. Killer is fine as it is. I wonder how bad the average player is with all these cries for buffs.
Billy/nurse/noed need nerfs. Adrenaline can be nerfed then too.
Enduring probably shouldnt work against the new DS. Punishes tunneling killers and makes the game more fun for everyone.
SWF....the big issue for me is that people often use their best items with their buddies. Solos dont usually, or you may have one instaheal. With swf you can expect the full lot. Green/purple toolboxes with best add ons, instaheals, purple flashlights, coldwind offerings etc
The loops and pallets should probably be adjusted and this would easily bump up the weakest killers to decent potential.
Just my 2 cents.
@The_Crusader
"Billy/nurse/noed need nerfs."
Dude, what happend to you?
You had been on a good way to understand the game... and now you do a full 180° on this.
Why?
My personal biggest issue within the game is no time pressure for the survivors.
It would be cool if there is a time objectiv to get the gens done, like 10 min or so.
This would not only solve stalling and hostage taking but also put some healthy pressure on the survivors and enable more killer strategies.
Right now you can pull of a fantastic 3 gen strat with 2-3 survivors left but you cannot leave the gens, otherwise you lose the game and there is nothing to force survivors to do gens in a certain time. So the game can be stalled indefinitely. That's no fun.
Same goes for the hatch, only the other way around.
By restricting the match time the devs can tweak the timers to get a desirable match lenght.
Right now we all agree, 3 min is unfun so is 20+ min.
Forums aren't quite a representation of the games population. Also, whether or not NOED is or is not an issue has little to do with it being deemed an "objective".
@Wolf74 and I did state my reasons.
Totems are the objective. NOED is simply the thing that doing all the objectives will prevent.