if slugging is not toxic neither is teabagging
if holding some one on the ground for 4 minutes not doing 1/3 of your role as killer and getting hooks then tea bagging at the exit gates and pallets shouldnt be considered toxic.
if holding some one on the ground for 4 minutes not doing 1/3 of your role as killer and getting hooks then tea bagging at the exit gates and pallets shouldnt be considered toxic.
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So did everyone else escape?
4 man slugging for the sake of slugging is frustrating. At least they added a surrender option. In my 3000 hours or so, I've only come across 3 matches where it was a bully squad that was literally entirely built around being unhookable - 4 man slugging (after dealing with 4 unbreakables) was the only real way to win as an m1 killer. That being said, I feel that 4 man slugging just to troll far outnumbers bully squads that make hooking impossible.
Oh, I see what youre trying to do. Gave yourself away.
If you’re getting slugged and left on the ground for 4 minutes, that is a survivor teammate issue, not a killer toxicity issue. This is a completely invalid comparison.
dont say that word. They hate it
Just 1 it was on the horrible small Eyrie map so he was gonna get a decent kill count regardless which is why I did. That map is horribly designed
Don’t know if I should enter the fray but I’ll say my opinion based on my thoughts and experiences.
I’m going to raise two points - one which is on whether slugging is toxic and another on whether it is abused. The conclusion and what is or should be ‘done’ about it will ultimately be one that only BHVR can decide and what makes them ‘decide’.
So let’s get the straightforward part of what I want to discuss out of the way first:
what I will say is that, you can look at something like power struggle, DS, deliverance etc and say they ‘can/are’ abused, but you also have the status quo of slugging in the category ‘can/is’ abused.
So in a way it’s like saying, we can’t restrict this thing that can and is abused because it is a valid strategy against something survivors can and do abuse if we don’t.
As I said, there’s no point in arguing whose point of view is the chicken or the egg, but the status quo right now, is that slugging can be abused and is being abused by ‘some/many’ and is available basekit to all killers regardless of their power, perks and add ons they’ll bring.
So MY opinion is that something that can and is abused out of the box has a bit more of a danger to the health of the game than something which can and is abused based on whether a survivor brings it or not.
I will say what I THINK should be done and it will be subjective. First of all, I agree with @AbsolutGrndZer0 ooint in that such a nerf or ‘anti’ measure will need to be done carefully to consider things such as whether it will affect others undeservingly and what could be a proper implementation and compensation otherwise it may or may not go down well for some.
we’ve seen beloved perks, play styles and other things come into the game many times before. The game has evolved and so has the need for changes. There was a time where bloodlust wasn’t a thing but came into the game shortly after, ditto window blocking. We’ve seen nerfs to DH, CoH, Franklins, face™ camping and many others on both sides - some have not gone down well for those who relied on it but the game has moved on and it survived regardless.
In conclusion, yes the game has many elements in a tug of war and everybody experience can be valid for them as to why they want something changed. The ones who only can change things at BHVR. People do have a right to express their experiences to surface them for BHVR who have the means to analyse how much of said claims are founded and to what extent they are a focus for the current and longer term health of the game. And by that I don’t mean just number of players but the actual health and balance for the majority, experienced, new, god-like and total potatoes alike.
Granted that isn’t an easy task and so here we are.
So I would respectfully and sincerely hope that BHVR can focus on this and ideally work on a best-efforts solution (as certainly none can be perfect and will go down badly for some regardless).
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Slugging is way worse than teabagging, and I agree that the latter isn't toxic (at least, not much).
But these things do not compare. Teabagging is just a meme. There's a reason they're trying to implement anti-slug and not anti-teabag.
One is a playstyle. Sometimes there is no way to realistically win other than slugging.
One is a taunt. It has no benefit. You're just being a jerk.
The only time I’ve ever seen bags that I feel do serve a purpose is when someone is trying to get a killer to chase them instead of someone else. I’ve seen killers leave the tunnel just to smack the butts of someone else bagging and it did save the tunneled survivor. But unfortunately it’s not usually used this way.
Because smart killer knows the best way to punish the tbagger here is to compleate the tunnel and then have more time for him and rest of survivors.
Well I mean, in this case I think the term punishing is a bit harsh. If your teammate is getting tunneled you’re supposed to take aggro. And yeah, most of the time the killer will ignore the person bagging and just tunnel the person out. But I’ve seen them get so annoyed by the bagger that they will leave the person they were tunneling just to stop the bagger and chase them. Which is what the bags are supposed to do; draw attention away from someone else.
If they loose control of their mond keep it clear and go nuts for bait its their thing.
Sometimes ignoring someone seeking attention is very punishing for them so unless they go for bodyblock their tbaging is just nice try but wont work on focused killer with experience.
Tbaging has multiple meanings and can be missunderstood just like killer nodding, one guesture with multiple meanings. Still way more toxic than strategy used to win or punish survivors mistake or use killers ability as much as you can like oni.
why are we acting like there isn’t a killer counterpart to tbagging? W’sing and hitting on hook is the killers version of being toxic, not slugging.
I think there’s a threshold there. Like you said, sometimes bags or nods can be misinterpreted because they can mean different things at different times. I think slugging can absolutely stop being a strategy and start being toxic. Bleed outs are a perfect example of that. And while bags aren’t very kind most of the time, and they’re used as a mocking or tease in a negative way, they don’t incapacitate you like slugging. I think it’s very different. Especially because the killer version of bagging happens while the survivor is stuck on the ground with nowhere to go. If a survivor is bagging a killer they can at least walk away or turn their head if they don’t want to deal with it. But a killer can essentially just hump you till you die.
One flashy save and body blocking for injured survivors and you instantly assume sweaty SWF? Followed by not displaying the loadout screen at the end? You didn't get power struggled a single time, you're just assuming they have it. Do any of these players even have power struggle? Are they even playing together? I really don't think they are.
If this was a squad they would have called out that you were camping Trevor's hook. If these were players going for power struggle plays they would have intentionally died on pallets and they never do. Finally, at 4:53 you say Trevor is exploiting with an extra health state, you hit Ada on the hook. I know it can be hard to be critical of our own matches at times, especially during, but I suggest you re-watch this with a more critical eye. It likely wasn't a squad and I don't think anyone here has power struggle.
Slugging, Camping and Tunneling are tactics to create pressure, they are not toxic
Teabbaging, pointing, waving, nodding, etc. can be annoying but they are not toxic either. They are just survivors trying to get into the mind of the killer.
The same as sabotaging and body bodyblocking, not toxic.
Because if I kill the right person, I can kill the teabagger at my leisure. And my rule is - one teabag from any survivor and everyone dies.
Slugging to gain pressure isnt toxic because its furthering their objective. Bleeding someone out is toxic however, because they had ample time to hook and chose not to.
Teabagging is toxic in the sense your doing it to show off, it doesnt further your objective in any sense then to annoy your opponent especially at the end gates when you could leave, which is bad sportsmanship. As said above, I also believe bleeding people out unneccesarily is also toxic, due to the time it wastes, but im sure there could be times when id say both are reasonable aswell.
Teabagging to get the killers attention since you know your good at a chase, I would deem not toxic personally as that's you trying to keep the killers attention whilst others do gen's and serves a purpose in furthering the gamestate.
I could imagine a scenario where you slug someone in the middle of a 3 gen that you have to protect and just don't have the time to pick them up and due to the pressure you continue to provide end up bleeding someone out, its definitely possible, but unlikely.
Overall, it depends on why you do either action. Like if a wraith dings his bell after killing you, or a killed smacks you as you ascend to the entity, teabagging at the gate also serves no purpose than to annoy/ celebrate in front of your opponent gaudily, and these examples are all toxic.
This is wonderfully written, I will just add a tiny disagreement I have with the post that the killer should be required to bring in a perk to do it, given how they only have 4 vs the 16 of the survivor perks. If we talk solely about solo queue, then sure it might be a fair comparison given if 4 of them take it and the killer has to take 1 perk. But if we talk even outside that and 2/3 people take it and still get tremendous value verses the 1 killer taking it.
Sure, you can argue that the killer might not take it ect, but a killer might not tunnel yet most would argue taking decisive strike is a must. I would argue this goes in the same category.
…ah.. okay, so collective punishment.
Thanks very much and yes, I broadly agree with your point. My view ultimately is that as BHVR will probably best be able to look at, implement and test a solution or solutions that, although no doubt won’t be popular universally (as with most of the changes ever made in a live service game), it would be worth exploring and testing these things based on what the underlying data behind the sentiments are and if it presents a paradigm shift (which it will as regulating or managing slugging In whatever capacity or form certainly would drastically change things), then it would need handling as well as possible and may need a willingness to commit to the wider layers and nuances that would follow. Above all it would need courage.
I remember just how popular something like dead hard, CoH Franklin’s and gen kick era etc were. Those changes drew outrage in many quarters and is still grumbled at by some but the game has survived. Who knows, it may even lead to new metas or better health. It may even be worse - who knows? and that’s why I feel courage is needed to make changes IF they are warranted.
You are right except like hitting people on hook when no one is there around hook which is intentional or tbaging at exitgate where killer cant do anything then force survivor out these two are like provocation and could be toxic for someone but others like you said can have more gameplay wise uses and are used to play the game.
Thats like calling mind gaming and faking toxic because killer must chase you as dog chasing his own tail but no they are strats used to secure hits that you wouldnt be able to normaly without them.
In this game majority is entitled like they never played other online hames like rainbow six or csgo or even games like rust where “toxic” is core of that community.
In these games ypu get insulted and more violeted than you can in DBD and no one is so offended than in where one nod or tbag is for bigger part of players (I would say) same weight of death threats etc.
I am one of the rare survivor's. I refuse to be toxic to my team mates or the killer even if they're toxic to me. If you as a survivor win the game and open the exit, you shouldn't be tbagging, you won, leave the game. Likewise for killers you shouldnt down a survivor and pretend you're humiliating them by "dry humping" from the back or smacking them multiple times when they're on the hook. That's just my opinion though. We get enough toxicity in end game chat or in my case my ps5 messages so I had to close down my messages to friends only.
Thats fair, nothing is worse than stagnance in games, especially when it comes to issues the general population can agree need to be addressed. IMO BHVR have came a long way since conception (I've played the game since 2018) and are slowly becoming better and better at addressing the playerbase's needs.
So yeah courage is needed, even if it makes it unbearable for a week or two, as long as when they set on that warpath, they commit to it. they dont do this as some sort of half-assed bandaid and then abandon any further attempts to balance it. This would need to be something they devoted considerable time to.
Get some experience and you can normally nail if it is an swf squad or not. Post game chat confirmed it, but frankly, who cares? You're going off topic.
I also went out of my way to not hit the person on the save - and I clearly didn't. Defend an exploiter all you want, but just a heads up - it's a really bad look. Regardless, entirely off topic.
Didn't show the ending screen because no one cares about the ending screen. I'll include if it the post-game chat is worth it, but that's rare. Regardless, you're still going off topic. Im flattered you're so intrigued with my editing cuts. If you're so obsessed with post game screens, a handful of my videos have them. Have fun.
Considering you're grasping for straws if you're only rebuttal is trying to chsnge the subject and go completely off topic, the point still stands - sometimes slugging is mandatory. By him going down at the pallet, picking up wasn't an option. They both decided to go down under the same pallet to try to get me to pick up the power struggle guy by mistake. Youll notice I actively avoided slugging when possible there by immediately picking up the person who just got downed. Unfortunately, the remaining survivor was down long enough to power up his power struggle. At least BHVR gave us a final survivor mori option, so this is less of an issue these days - kudos to BHVR for that.
Lie down with the dogs, you get fleas.
lol, neat that you didn't show it then, very convincing.
Naw man, you hit the Ada on hook, no exploitation needed, and if it was an exploiter why only do this and not more? You are grasping at straws here, I'm just commenting on exactly what I saw and its clear what happened.
I care about the end game screen when you are claiming the survivors have perks they don't have. I'm not watching more of your poor killer play, I watched the one solely for this conversation and nothing more. Since you brought it up the entirety of the video becomes relevant to your argument and proves it to be a poor one. As you mentioned BHVR even addressed the only possible, since there is no proof anyone has power struggle, problem in this video with the basekit mori. That makes your entire argument irrelevant to the conversation. I never said that slugging isn't necessary at times but hard slugging is almost never necessary which is what the conversation is about.
Trying to tell someone to get some experience to identify swf is just a hilarious statement. People love to claim swf over the tiniest of inconveniences, its just them looking for something to blame a hard match on. I have had four survivors load in separately that played in a more coordinated and team oriented way than a confirmed swf. I have also been accused of being a swf while in solo queue, get some perspective and realize that you are bad at analyzing your own matches and have an outsized opinion of how good you are at the game.
Wait sorry, maybe I’m misunderstanding your point.
Are you saying that if a survivor bags, that specific survivor gets targeted, or are you saying that if one survivor bags, you start treating the entire survivor team differently?
Because I thought you were arguing the latter. For example if Ace is the one bagging, then not only Ace but also Cheryl ends up paying the price too even though she didn’t do anything.
That’s why I brought up collective punishment. It’s not saying the person responsible for BMing shouldn’t face consequences, more so it’s that other people who are innocent are getting punished because of the actions of someone else.
If the only thing Cheryl has in common with the bagging Ace is that they’re both survivors, is that really “lying down with the dogs”? Even if she never bagged, never BMd, and didn’t do anything wrong herself? Or am i just misunderstanding?
If survivors get to teabag me because 'killers are toxic' then I get to kill the entire team if one teabags me.
So the survivor assumes all killers are toxic because of one killer, and the killer assumes all survivors are toxic because of one survivor.
Feels like a system that guarantees nobody learns anything. Strange that you’d defend the very behavior you’re criticizing, but to each their own.
It's not my place to become a martyr to fix the world. I just have to live in it.
I don’t think treating people as individuals instead of representatives of an entire group makes someone a martyr.
There’s a pretty big difference between self-sacrifice and simply not punishing people for something they didn’t do.
Respectfully, that mentality is the problem. And while you can openly admit you’re a part of the cycle it’s hypocritical to criticize others for doing the same thing. Especially when you understand why it’s wrong for others to do it, which means it’s wrong when you do it too.
I can’t help but feel this is exactly what you mean by, “Lie down with the dogs, you get fleas.”
Regardless, it doesn’t seem we’re going to come to any agreement. So I wish you good luck in your future games. Thanks for the conversation.