So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
What can I say, I'm a likeable guy.
None of this matters though. At the end of the day it's the devs that decide what changes goes in their game. No amount of theories or brainstorming new mechanics is going to change that.
Ah, so if there exists a key that can be found and you find it, it instantly activates the exit gates, you haven't progressed 400 generator charges generator charges, meaning you've been doing a side-objective and not progressed the main objective?/ or does it mean it simply progressed to the last 20/40 of the objective bar, meaning you just did the biggest part of the main objective?
Spoiler alert: It's the latter. Charges have nothing to do with it. Whether it directly subtracts from the time needed to complete your objective does.
@NuclearBurrito2
No; it doesn't. Healing adds more time unless your heal is near instant. Only if your heal is near instant and linked to taking out a negative multiplier on generators is it directly advancing the main bar.
In terms of mechanics that key would need to instantly give the generators 80 charges each. Your parts do not do this nor does it do something that is close enough to say it is that.
Here is the difference: Your parts speed up future progress, this makes them mechanically equivalent to a toolbox
this also means that it becomes less efficient the more progress is made before hand since it isn't retroactive.
However you are conflating this with an absolute boost in progress (which is where you are getting the -15 from)
Before you have started working on a generator there is no difference between the 2 since increasing the speed at which you make progress by 10% will make you complete the gen just as fast as decreasing the required progress by 10%. However once you start working on the generator any future speed bonuses become less meaningful. Toolboxes can seem similar because they repair a finite number of generators and can repair until the equivalent number of charges is reached however they can still have this problem if you don't end up using the entire toolbox. However the amount of charges that get made at the faster speed depends on the amount of progress you have already made on the generator you are installing it in.
Btw increasing the number of charges by 10 and decreasing the required charges by 10 is ALSO mechanically different.
Also I'm not sure why you are so defensive about the whole sidequesting thing, it's not like sidequests are inherently problematic and none of this discussion has actually established if this is a good mechanic or not
I vote we call this an arfleblarg and move on to if it should be added or not
That can be arranged
Hint: instant heal exist in this game for some reason
Good.
Did you notice how Thana hindered the main objective (negative multiplier) while a generator still has 80 charges and not more?;
So you finally understand it now?
If Thana didn't affect generators, but only totems, then even instantly healing wouldn't be directly advancing the main objective.
The negative multiplier only hinders the main objective when it's affecting the main objective.
See how Parts (a positive multiplier) in opposition directly progress the main objective?
55 parts = 25 parts done = 705 = 350 seconds less to do = only 50+20/40 seconds left.
The easiest way to know whether someone has been doing their main objectives is simply by asking how much seconds you still have left to do before you can escape.
Anyways, this arfleblarg has it's pros and cons:
The good:
The bad:
Potential improvement:
I'll try to come up with other ideas. While I do think the game needs to last longer I have other idea's for that. If I do it right then it should be possible to reduce the amount of time spent on a generator further while allowing for more interesting decision making. Having some kind of part system is important to having something like that work however
Glad that at least 1 has started to see the obvious
As for your comment;
I have a post about Death-Efficiency, which is simply about the disproportional drop in total generator efficiency of survivors upon the death of 1 survivor. (You'd expect to lose 25% per death but it's worse)
Link:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue/p1
I suggest that there's a problem with both gen-rushing and a low survivor count. What happens is that if you prolongue generator times WITHOUT making lower survivor count gameplay possible, then you cannot address the issue and normalise the experience.
Simply nerfing generator time is the worst thing you can do; Nerfing generator time and making the game more survivable for lower-survivor counts is THE solution to one of the core issues of the game.
I explain how regression is key to making the late-game unplayable. That is why the Part route is basically the elimination of that regression element, without unnaturally altering regression.
So if the late-game is playable (with the Part system we can make it as playable as we want to!) then it is indeed possible to start working on slowing down the base-game, which would lead to:
1: Less 4 man escapes.
4: Less the game spiralling into 4 K's after 1 survivor dies.
It's a normalised experience.
Then play around with generator regression (:
See, we have 2 routes. The B route is slower as we discussed. The A route can be the fastest but it is also possible to experience major regression.
The stronger you make regression, the more tempted people are to start to use part. In the most extreme case: We give the killer to kick a generator to INSTANTLY regress it;
Even with this power the game would still be functional as a 5 part gen only requires the killer to be away for 10 seconds. (about 5-6 seconds if there are 2 survivors on a gen).
Even though survivors could still gen rush in this extreme example; it would be the killer's misplay as they could've instantly regressed a near 80 seconds of generator.
If you understand the above, then you understand the main way you can nerf and buff things in a multi-route environment;
Through regression, you could accomplish the same as:
Early game nerf; late game buff; normalisation.
The beauty of the workshops is how many things you can do with them. There are a lot of mechanics that you can attach to it to make it infinitely more dynamic and adding to the gameplay experience;
This picture alone should set the mood:
@Paddy4583
Generator progress on a gen that isn't completed is also potential time, derp.
If a generator is never finished then it's basically the same as a 0 progression generator.
A generator with 70 second progression is actually less absolute progression than a generator with 5 parts, since the 5 parts are 70 seconds of unregressable progression, unlike the normal 70 seconds, which is 70 seconds of regressable progression and both are denied progression if a generator is never finished.
Correct. This suggestion 100% helps death efficiency issues. Doesn't solve it but it certainly helps. Hence why it is listed under the good.
I just think that as stated right now there are other issues it could be solving that it doesn't. It's a decent suggestion but it could always be better.
The thing about buffing survivors is because giving a situational option will help the survivors in that situation while also not hurting them outside of that situation. Thus I would expect survivor winrate to go up and killer winrate to go down. This is a problem since Killer winrate is too low right now.
No worries however, changes are not made in isolation so it is a simple matter to make further changes to help with balance issues (hence making 1 part per gen 100% required). Again while making a part required if we also decrease the total gen time (not counting parts. The 1 required part means mathematically it is the same time but there is also travel time ect) does counterbalance the potential this change would have to buff survivors it wouldn't nerf them significantly either. However that starts to go beyond the scope of this suggestion, so yeah
For other kinds of objectives I'd want added see this link: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/46668/additional-objectives-brainstorm
Basically in my ideal gameplay loop you would:
1: Get parts (using your system or otherwise)
2: Install those parts into generators (which could actually be SHORTER than now)
3: Do at least 2-3ish generators (exact number can be decided and then balanced around)
4: Either A: Continue doing generators until you have done at least 5 B: Find and open the hatch (which would lead into a new area I'm going to call the tunnels instead of an instant escape) or C: Start doing a map specific objective
5A: Obtain a power cell from the basement. Alternatively complete all 7 generators in the case that the basement is being camped. Doing all 7 generators is a failsafe and not what you actually want to end up doing preferably. The parts system combined with the map specific means camping the killer shack if a generator and the basement both spawn there is not a viable option for the killer
5B: Obtain 3 power cells from the basement
5C: Depends on the map. Feel free to help me brainstorm specifics here
6A: Install the power cell into the gate and then open it like normal. If all generators are repaired then no power cell is needed
6B: Install each power cell into a handle like the one next to the gate. All 3 must be powered (which mechanically works like the gate) for a door in the tunnels to open. The tunnel door can be used to escape. 1 less power handle thing is needed to escape per dead survivor, with 3 dead survivors the door will open with no charges needed so the final person can use the hatch like they do now
6C: Escape somehow. Again map dependant
Route A should require a minimum of 440 charges (up from 420)
Route B should require a minimum of 410 charges and 40 less per dead person but is extremely risky (see link above for details)
Route C should require a minimum of 500 charges but should be the hardest for the killer to defend due to lack of interaction with perks and no direct regression method
Additionally there should only be 1 gate. But since there are 2 other escape routes that means the killer still can't just camp the gate
Powering all gens to open the gate would take 580 charges and is not what you would want to do
The exact numbers can be altered in various ways.
remember that 1 charge = 1 second without modifiers. We use charges instead of seconds because modifiers exist
What you call doing a gens is no longer doing 1 thing.
You can do 2 distinct options one of which the new one does not involve mandated rooting yourself in a position for 80 seconds.
Ill respond to that tomorrow when not on mobile.
You are correct. It is rooting yourself in for 10 seconds.
Which is still.
DOING A GEN
Doing a gen has no meaning since its not 1 thing.
Would that mean that Survivors can indirectly repair generators (collect parts) while looping?
Noice!
If they can afford to stand still 10 uninterrupted seconds while doing so; yes (:
The word doing has a different meaning to it than achieving.
The thing you are DOING when you are doing a generator is the same as doing a totem; holding M1.
Doing a totem and doing a flat generator means you are DOING the same thing, but you achieve something different by DOING the same thing, but somewhere else.
A location is not something you do: "I do a location". It's where you are. When you are in your house you are not "doing a house".
DOING a gen is not the same thing, since you have to DO different things in route A and B. Different actions and inputs in any process means you're DOING something else.
You may be ACHIEVING the same; which is progressing the main objective. But that's the whole point.
@NuclearBurrito2
To make sure if I understand how I should read it: You mean if you pick 4A then 5A and 6A is the route right? Same goes for 4B, 5B and 6B?
Correct. Although just because you start doing one does not mean you can't start doing the other (so doing 4 gens doesn't stop you from doing the hatch and powering one of the hatch cells doesn't prevent you from using the gates later)
Please check my idee from August, 2018:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/11371/find-a-wrench-then-repair-a-gen#latest
What about it
I appreciate the time and effort that has gone into this thread and I have sent it to the design team. Thanks for your feedback, everyone
Finish 3 gens;
So route A =
Do 2 extra Gens >>> Go to the basement >>> (escape through the exit gates?)
Route B =
Go to the basement to grab 3 things / 3 times?>>> Open and enter the hatch >>> New area.
Route C =
Map dependent.
For Route B:
So the moment when there are 3 generators finished. (Which is insanely quick as it can often translate in every player only having to do 1 gen. Meaning after doing 1 gen you can grab something in the basement and go inside of the tunnel area.
I don't know what a tunnel area would contribute to game-play; Does it have pallets? Can you return? Can the game afford to do all this and still have things run on console?
It seems like the idea behind the tunnel only works conceptually. Game-play wise it adds to little for the amount of labour that such a system would require.
With both A and B being so similar it kind of feels like:
Do 3 gens > Go to the basement? ---> no?
Do 5 gens > Go to the basement? ---> no?
Do 7 gens > No questions asked.
It has that structural overlap and with that overlap, I cannot see where the meaningful strategical considerations are;
Why pick route A over B for any other reason than the killer being somewhat close to the basement or not? What makes the choice different? What makes tunnel more risky or what game-play does the tunnel add?
The problem I see with A and B in particular is that they don't interact with each other, meaning that in a solo environment multiple players may be working on a completely different route as the tunnel doesn't progress the 7 gen/the 5 gen. Doing the main objective no longer progresses as 1 bar but as separate.
Whether the map specific objective would have interactivity with either of the 2 is of course uncertain.
As for map specific objectives; this is cool. Though I don't know how much work that'll be. Different objectives means also more error for balance issues. If you'd want something like it, the better try would be to ask for Realm-specific objectives, with realms that only have 1/2 maps all have the same objective (:
@Paddy4583
Still oblivious to the fact that sitting a total of 350 seconds next to a generator inserting charges is no longer mandatory to escaping.
Keep side-questing on flat gens.
You're the only one that still believes that. Even Nuclear_Burrito2 understands that sitting out the 350 seconds is no longer mandatory.
Seems like someone has given up and is resorting to evasion indeed ^
You are no longer defining words. You're not quoting anything. Inflating 2 separate things as 1.
And you're still denying that you can complete the game without a flat generator in the version with the parts, aka the 350 seconds.
By your own definition you made doing flat generators being called side-questing since those 70 seconds of you sitting there at that location were not mandatory to escaping and you're as cornered that you can no longer reason, so you just start posting pictures xD
After many many hours, you still don't see how in a multi-route, neither routes are mandatory.
70 seconds of sitting on a generator inserting charges is not mandatory, neither is doing parts.
The choice/mix between those paths IS however mandatory.
But I don't expect you to understand this. Maybe you'll have to figure out why people didn't save people on hooks as much during the Moonrise first before you're ready for this one.
bit like your doing now your doing now.
its highly amusing!
Ive started using pictures because you can’t misquote those, and they sum up better than words.
Any way the village has phoned and they want you back....
Is this the moment where you tell me you are one?
What you don’t understand is it’s not mandatory for the sea lion to be flat so there by it’s no longer a sea lion it’s a stick or a flower, and flowers attract bees, and bees sting, and so do jelly fish, so a sea lion is a jelly fish except when it’s not but then it’s still not a sea lion because meat!
@Paddy4583
Yes, both are different things.
Scripting a bot that does a flat gen (route A) simply has 1 instruction: Hold M1 for 80 seconds.
If I had to write the code for a bot doing route B, then the code would be more complex.
If doing a gen was doing 1 thing only, then I should've only needed that first script.
But as reality checks out; the bots wouldn't be doing the same thing, which is why the script for route B is different from route A.
DOING THE SAME =/= ACHIEVING the same (main objective). (sorry but I lost track of how many times you inflate different things)
I code for a living and I’ll tell you now, if we need a code to achieve a goal, we wouldn’t over complicate the simplistic code for a more complex code with more steps and longer process time... and there’s a reason for that!
@Paddy4583
Avoided the point. Extra points.
If that was supposed to be a rebuttal that doing a generator is no longer 1 mono-process then you failed at that one!
Ha! We are creating gameplay here. Of course the code gets bigger. Only if we didn't create new things to DO would the code have been the same.
Nope see what you’ve done is taken a single word and then fixated on it because you believe that 2 ways of doing a gen makes doing a gen not doing a gen, and makes neither mandatory as a route so they both can’t be side quests.
The point that you always skim past is that, one involves an additional objective the other doesn’t and is the current game. And like I’ve always said I refer to that as a side quest.
Adding additions doesn’t change the current game play or the current objective, it just adds a side step, additional step, side quest, how ever you want to define it, to doing the same thing.
which has been my argument from the start, I have never changed my stance on that.
And you have agreed this already and also agreed it’s still just doing a gen, while at the same time saying they are different and not the same as doing a gen.
But Ill go back to my pictures from now on because you Seem to be “I’m just looking at the pictures!” kinda guy
Realm specific is close enough
The idea is that the tunnels have a similar risk factor to the basement (1 way in or out not counting the exit door and not enough room to maneuver around the killer)
When I say a new area I don't mean something particularly large, I'd say maybe twice the size of the basement but more stretched out into a few hallways. Since opening the hatch in my idea gives a noise notification it means it is very likely the killer is going to come down, this means you can just open the hatch and leave without using it to distract the killer if you want to.
The hatch is faster, especially if people are dead which is why you would want to use it and I would imagine there would be a latter to get back out of it if needed
@Paddy4583
This is not a side-quest.
Anything that directly advances the main goal is NEVER a side-quest. Side-quests are things that are NOT directly progressing your main goal;
420/440 bar to escape.
Also I would just have a counter for the tunnel power cell gate things (im'a just call them power stations kay?) that has an animation when it is being used and when it is completed. The killer would not see this
@NuclearBurrito2
Ah, I see. So you want to create a place where the survivor can get trapped in and has to make the consideration of whether committing to it or not?
Bingo.
And of course the last person would not be making such a decision as they can just leave straight away
@NuclearBurrito2
Labour-wise I think you wouldn't be able to get away with a multi-hallway tunnel set. Though what you want already exists inside of the game, right?; It's the basement, as you've mentioned.
If you want to create such a pressure spot related to doing an objective, then you could try and remove the batteries from the basement and instead have the basement asset have another door inside leading even deeper inside.
(The deeper room having the same aesthetics of the basement)
With such alterations then you might be able to create the type of pressure point you want, while keeping required resources durable.
Dunno, can you see it in front of you?; A basement with another stair-case leading even deeper, made out of basement textures etc?
I would be willing to take that as a compromise. I would prefer BOTH the power cells AND the tunnel to be in a pressure point (with the cells being far faster and thus a bit less risky in comparison), but in the event that doing this isn't possible I am ok with it being part of the basement
In regards to aesthetics btw we do have the underground section of larry's (the map with the houses in case I got the name wrong)
@NuclearBurrito2
What if you replace power cells with, idk, spiderwebs? Meaning that you have to "cleanse" spiderwebs before you can go down the last stairways, meaning you are spending more and more time increasingly deeper inside of the basement? xD
Why this is difficult for you to understand regardless of how you want to define it, is baffaling.