So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
More than half of survivors SHOULD be dying. Since the only way for the game to be perfectly balanced otherwise is to have an ungodly snowball effect to the point where after 1 survivor dies the others are literally guaranteed to lose
Yes, that is simply a terrible idea, for the vast majority of the player-base. A lazy killer nerf that inherently has nothing to do with the topic of new objectives. You simply ask for more gen-time.
@NuclearBurrito2
Exactly HALF of the survivors should escape through the exit gates and the hatch should not be a free-escape factor in that.
I'm not sure if you checked the win-rates, but I suggest checking them again.
So you wanted more gen-time after all, sugar coated as second objective? No thank you.
if 50% of survivors escape then that is an average of 2 kills per game (duh)
However in a perfectly balanced game Survivor WR = Killer WR
Survivor WR = 50%
Killer WR = 50%
So if everyone dies 50% of the time then in order for any given person to always live half the time is for everyone to always escape when ANYONE escapes. Meaning that any game where someone dies must be a game which eventually becomes a 4k
If the snowball effect is lessened then in order to have a fair game the average kills per match must go up and thus the average winrate must go down.
Last time I checked the survivor winrate was 40% while the killer winrate was only 25%. Or in otherwords a 15% imbalance
And seriously. Wanting longer games isn't a bad thing
@NuclearBurrito2
Define a win for a killer? They definitely pipped in their matches.
I think ZubatLel pipped/neutral pipped in ALL his games from rank 20 to rank 1 without PERKS AND ADD-ONS.
That's about a 100% winrate there.
Yes; flat out longer games are very bad. Everything is bad about it.
Once the first survivor dies, it's time for the other 2 to DC.
You are the person in this situation passing extra gen time off as something else.
Ha, and now it's suddenly no longer a side-quest? (:
I thought a side-quest after all would be ignored.
My OP is not a survivor nerf. My OP is twisting power for high-survivor counts to low-survivor counts, creating a more generally functional outcome throughout the board.
Dang.
As a Killer main, i like it.
But as a Wraith main, it wouldn't really do anything.
Though that's moreso a Wraith issue, truly wish his cloaked movement speed was more...
You're not the only one...
(been a wraith main too for a while xD)
my reply to your actual comment is apt and cohearant, it doesn’t need you to twist it and add in content that has nothing to do with your comment!
@Paddy4583
So a nerf that can be ignored and doesn't progress the main goal. Not really a nerf is it?
Im not moving to a new topic you’ve added in along the way to deflect from you just giving a simple straight answer
Killer win = 4k
Survivor win = escape
I can't stand it when people conflate ranking/pipping with winning
You said that me stating that simply nerfing the flat amount time needed for survivors to progress is a bad idea and you said it's hypocrisy.
Showing you how I didn't simply nerf the flat time requires is exactly relevant to the topic lmao.
You don't even know what topic you are on yourself. You didn't even know what topic you started with. Every single claim has been wrong.
Killer 4kin is not a win. Pipping is winning, which is why you rank up when you pip and not only when you 4k. When you 4k, you typically double pip meaning you did more than just winning.
You stated that:
this would be balance. But if a survivor should survive 50% of the time and a killer should 4k 50% of the time THEN LITERALLY EVERY GAME should be all survivors dying or all survivors escaping, otherwise such a ratio would be IMPOSSIBLE, meaning that if 1 survivor escapes, all should magically become alive, otherwise your suggestion is impossible. xD
I say 7 gens for a survivor at 1 minute 20 seconds each. Also make them look around for fuses before they can power the gens. Also hide totems better and make them take longer so they can't disable NOED.
its very clear which of your comments Inwas referring too and why I find it hypocritical.
like I said it doesn’t need your twist on it and additional after the fact circumstances.
its literally a 3 comment thread, no more.
Pipping is not winning and ranking is also not winning. According to both the tutorial and the fundumental design of the game the Killer's goal is to kill everyone and the survivors goal is to survive. I have a much more drawn out argument if you need it but keep in mind that this isn't the only game which has it's ranking system and winconditions as seperate, overwatch uses contribution to determine if you rank up at lower ranks and only switches to using wins at mid to high ranks for example. This is because ranks have a purpose that isn't necessarily fulfilled by just checking wining, specifically it is there to match players of even skill levels, in a game like this high skilled players can get screwed over and low skill players can get lucky very often so winning isn't a good enough tool for matchmaking. However that doesn't change what your winconditions are in the first place
This is 100% correct. I do not think survivors should be escaping 50% of the time and I don't think killers should be 4king 50% of the time. I'd estimate the ideal to be closer to 30% escape/4k rate. This would mean a 1v1 in a hatch situation is a 50/50 and then you work your way up from there.
@NuclearBurrito2
I suggest estimating again.
The survivors need to survive; that's the balance; a 50% survival rate. That means less negative experiences across the board. As simple as that.
@Paddy4583
I stated that many people simply want to make survivors weaker. My OP doesn't do that. No hypocrisy. Just you not understand things, but we are used that.
We both agreed that in a perfectly balanced game a 50% survival rate requires an ungodly snowball effect.
Games where you lose more than win tend to be more satisfying in the event that you win, thus having a low winrate across the board.
This is hardly the only game that balances like this, battle royal games only have a 1-5% winrate (depending on the exact game we are talking about) and they are extremely popular. Roguelikes are known for being hard enough that many people never get to the end at all and dark souls is popular enough to almost be it's own subgenre.
I completely agree with this - in fact this is exactly what people complaining of "m1 holding simulation" are complaining about.
and I agree with this as well, because it's not how much time one needs to accomplish the task the problem, the problem is what do you need to do, before reaching that part?
mending: literally nothing, you either are lucky enough that Legion is chasing someone else, or you simply can't mend at all.
removing a reverse bear-trap: use a wall-hack to locate where the jigsaw boxes are, then reach their spot and try your luck 1 to 4 times.
totem: search for a totem, decide if you want to invest 10 seconds for what is a dull totem but could help in the end game, or use that time elsewhere, if there's thrill of the hunt change your strategy (you can even try some mind game!) etc.
It's not the debuff vs buff matter the problem, is the engagement in the activity that differs. Even sabotaging a hook is somehow more entertaining because there's a vague strategic component in it.
@Paddy4583
<Nope not interested in your after the fact comments. I’m very clear in what I’m referring too, seems to me most of the last 10 pages are people who are clear in seeing its you who doesn’t understand!
They try to make extra gen time come in another form as to make it less obvious.
My post doesn't want to secretly add more gen to make survivors weaker. My Op both buffs killers and survivors in a different area, which means that if you're a killer you will definitely be confronted for your lack of skill. Same goes for you, since you clearly fall in the category of players that want to simply add gen-time.
Both genres are not 2 teams against each other. There are very little places where games have 2 teams against each other with an (intended) unequal win-rate.
This game is no exception? I've been talking with the premise of everyone having an equal win rate. In fact the games I just listed have an equal winrate, that 1% is the same for everyone (roguelikes and darksouls are both singleplayer so yeah)
Also Throne of Lies has an intended unequal win-rate.
@Edys
I dislike dealing all with all the debuff elements:
Reverse bear traps, Mending, Mangled, etc.
That aside:
This is indeed what makes it more exciting.
For a period of time I've tried solo sabotaging and even though in the end I end up doing a lot of progress bars; moving around the map while someone else is getting chased can really switch things up. (Let's ignore that I make my team lose the game by solo sabotaging xd)
That is the element that we copy in the generator parts; the strategy is to have generators at certain locations "prepared" for in the end-game, where they will be significantly harder to protect.
While doing so, you'll be moving through the map similar to me when sabotaging all the hooks.
What is an interesting afterthought to that is: Part of the fun, (which we haven't really discussed yet) is in the way crafting tables spawn/are available/how plentiful they are.
It is perfectly possible, for example, to use the vase example I gave earlier (breaking the trinity) and use that to buff a workship/crafting table, resulting in parts becoming stronger (translating into you being able to create a part that is the same as 2 or even 3, to name something).
There are a lot of ways to go about things (:
@NuclearBurrito2
The rogue-like is a bad example since it's single player, but the fortnite example is good:
The reason why the fortnite example works is that the collection of players in total always have a 100% win-rate.
Fortnite: 100 people with 1% winrate.
Football: 2 people with a 50% winrate = 100% winrate.
But in your 4k example, survivors and killers will never total a 100% win-rate per match the same way fortnite and football does.
que additional waffle and misdirection to justify why this isn’t so in 3,2,1
@Paddy4583
Generators take 80 seconds do they not?
In a previous example I asked you if in order to gain a new item you would need to search a chest → tap a gen → search the chest again → tap a gen → repeat... you would enjoy it (I wouldn't).
This is what happens with the parts: even if there are multiple working bench, one can still go back to the same one, or even have to go back to the same one, depending on the overall positioning of killer and workbenches.
A possible solution could be to spawn one working bench; once a part has been produced there, that same working bench de-spawns and another spawns elsewhere. Now there's an active search component in the mix. Of course the overall balance would need to change: a part could need more time to be produced (maybe even through co-op to speed it up) in exchange to a bigger increase in repair speed for part installed.
So when you say people want to add more gen time in another form, give my an example
of what you mean by that...
@Edys
The tables would probably not despawn;
This is how I had it in my head:
The work-bench is simply the visual representation of where the parts could be done. (1 always spawns in the basement).
The work bench could have 1 special "thing" standing on top of it; either (or both) indicating whether it is possible to instal a part there at this moment or how strong that part would be.
Adjusting strength of parts could be done through whatever anti-trinity method; the way workbenches become available and switch between availability would switch based on said conditions, though currently unknown.
More gen time refers to the 440 second objective timer;
The following proposal would be part of that:
You have to do 5 gens (like normally) >> Now you have to find 2 handles that spawn >>> now you open the exit gates with the handle.
Normally you could just open the exit gates but now you are MANDATED to find handles.
It actually adds up to MORE than 100%. Since each player wins and loses separately that makes it effectively 5 "teams" (for lack of a better term) rather than 2.
If everyone has a 30% winrate then that's a 150% total winrate, or in otherwords you would expect to see an average of 1.5 winners per game
however you seem to have included the premis of it being mandatory, so is your definition purely an additional mandatory action, making this the single different factor in your proposal?
@Paddy4583
It: in the context of what we have previously discussed is the main objective. If there are 10 ways to get to rome, neither route is mandatory to achieve your goal; It means the choice between those routes.
So no:
That's completely not it, which is as obvious as a dead fish.
As for
it being clear as a dead fish: not sure why you’d mention it and capitalise it if it wasn’t realivant, which is why I asked for clarity.
Which you’ve clarified as that not being the case so
the fact of it being mandatory is not important so we will ignore that part from your example, so now the only added time comes from finding handles?
And this is your idea at its simplest level!
Not sure where you go from here, but I look forward as ever to seeing how elaborate your own simple example and definition becomes.
@Paddy4583
You cannot ignore that part. That part is what makes it a nerf. If you didn't have to find handles but you could just add them (dunno, for decoration's sake?) then it wouldn't be a nerf.
What the hell are you doing xD
My idea gives more options. Giving more options to someone is not nerfing them, even if an extra option would be considered so weak that it's impossible to use in the same way that adding:
New totem: Takes 10k hours to cleanse and gives you a cool sound when it breaks!
Note how it doesn't slow the game down? It's just something you can do that you can ignore.
But the 10k hours totem being MANDATORY would nerf survivors to the ground, making it impossible to win.
No, you cannot ignore that part, what the hell, lmao
Survivors are 1 faction. Killers are 1 faction. There are only 2 numbers that there are to add.
If you play a squad versus squad in fort-nite you don't get a 200% win-rate for each time 1 squad wins. The win-rate per member should be 50% per member in the squad, meaning 50% per team/faction on average thus 100% per game.
This really shouldn’t be this difficult, for you to convey.
@Paddy4583
A mandatory route is indeed the problem here. With the handles there's only 1 route.
When there are multiple routes, the choice between those routes is mandatory, but no specific route between the options itself is.
Not that hard to understand is it?
That's just it. Survivor's are NOT a faction. At least not a single one anyways.
Idk how you define a faction but I've always used this definition:
A faction is a group of people who:
1: Win and lose together
and
2: Have a mutually exclusive wincondition with all other factions
Survivors/Killers would meet requirement 2 except survivors don't fit requirement 1
Great so now we are on the same page that, you believe a mandatory additional action added to the game, would in fact just be a way of “adding more time to the gen”, which you believe to be a nerf as it adds mandatory additional steps to pull off the escape, and you would define that as a nerf because it essentially reduces the odds by slowing survivors down?
Are we agreed so far?
@NuclearBurrito2
Yes you are teammates. Sacrificing yourself for the team can literally be more rewarding than just escaping, both point and pip-wise.
As a survivor you cannot grief your teammates under this definition of griefing:
It's bannable, because your are not allowed to deliberately screw over your own team.
You did not read what I said. Reread what I said until you understand it:
A mandatory route is indeed the problem here. With the handles there's only 1 route.
When there are multiple routes, the choice between those routes is mandatory, but no specific route between the options itself is.
cause it because you know exactly where this is going and you need to deflect before the conclusion?
re-reading and then me making an assumption gives you and exit clause.
That is why I asking for clear statements from you and making sure we BOTH have the same understanding.
i have already implied what my understanding of what you refer to as an extension of gen time and that extension is nothing but a nerf is and asked if we are in agreement, if yes you just state yes if no, you have to further explain, within the context you’ve already provided.