So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
this will make it extremly difficult for Survivors ... too overwhelming and there is just too much to do ..Cleansing Totems , Saving Teammates , and then going to craft parts so Making it mandatory to install a part on a Generator before it is being worked on .. is going to kill the fun for Survivors and make it unappealing .
This might work only among Highest Ranks and in Coordinated SWF groups .
But the majority of matches I play below rank 8 like 9 , 10 etc .. Survivors barely finish 2 Generators .. in most games .. if Someone get Hooked once or Twice while 5 Gens are still undone .. the killer chasing someone else .. someone has to go for the save .. leaving 1 person to fix only .. and most Survivors are slacking among these ranks .. like hiding around or cleansing totems , Searching chests.
If someone Dies or DC too early with 5 Gens are still up I find myself Sweating it as it is .. let alone Having to craft a part to be able to fix.
I think there'd be more disconnections and In my opinion it is heavily killer sided.
It should be fun and not mandatory I also Disagree with the Buffs . Then Survivors among highest Ranks will just craft Parts pop them on Gens while you are being looped and boom all 5 gens are done before you even know it .
A Second objective is needed but it could be anything like Barricading a Pipe in the Swap Map so It won't Break .. if survivors do not Pay attention to it and only focus on Generators .. The Pipe could break making water overflood and if survivors must rush through that area they'd waddle through water being slowed down in chases I think interactive stuff like this would make it more fun and interesting..
Or Fortifyig a Wooden Bridge etc you get the idea.. ( Optional ) but if you don't it'd have Consquences.
@Edys
I think you miss their point;
Free_Hugs claimed that if the generators were completed through parts alone they'd consider it a second objective. They weren't talking about the time being split, but about the B route having an overlap of inserting charges into that generator, thus using the same progression system (Charges) for the last 10 seconds.
No, I'm sorry but I'm sure you are missing theirs...
But again, feel free to ask them.
I think your triad you made may be a trap for you more then anything, Always.
Definition of a second objective that is distinct from doing a gen:
Which means that everything opposite to this is you doing a gen. Sounds like a ridiculous definition.
@Free_Hugs
For saying that an example does not equal a definition?
except that is exactly what you are not getting.
"doing a gen" in the context of this discussion is equivalent to "m1 holding". So yes, even "healing someone" is not that different than "doing a gen": which is exactly the point.
You wanted a definition of something "different than doing a gen":
an objective that does not imply the holding of a button in order to be achieved.
saving someone from a hook for example.
healing or cleansing a totem, instead, are basically "doing a gen", even with their difference on timing / skill checks / regression... they still are m1 holding.
I do genuinely believe you may need help.
@Paddy4583
No; that is the basis of a definition. Everything that does not conform to a definition is not part of that definition.
You cannot know what is meant by a vehicle by staring at a car. If you stare at the car then you might think all vehicles are cars, meaning that a plane is not a vehicle.
This is the basis for language?
Devs need to see this and really give it some consideration
Unhooking is also a gen. It's a shorter gen LOL. It's all a progression bar; ranging from 0 to infinite seconds.
When people ask for a second objective, they weren't arguing about the elimination of M1 all together. Or at least I cannot find it in the linked post:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/46450/why-do-survivors-want-extra-objectives/p1
From what people claim about the second objective:
See? People didn't challange the idea behind progress bars as you pretend they are xD
They don't want to sit still for 80 seconds. They want to be able to move inbetween and still do their main objective.
You can look at the debate yourself, but trying to claim that people challange the idea behind progress bars al together has little to do with the second objective debate. That is not why people brought it up.
The reason is that they want to be able to move in between (like switching between totems and gens etc) while that still THEM being them doing the main objective.
I asked for the definition of what exactly makes something distinct from doing a generator. (Simple question)
and with this I'm now sure you're either trolling or really incapable of discussing with anyone, and I can't do anything for neither of the two.
Have a good evening
@Edys
Pseudo Code:
void Doing a generator:
if m1 = true (on a generator)
x = x + 1 * delta time
if x = 80
generator = done.
void Healing:
if m1 = true (on teammate)
x = x + 1 * delta time
if x = 16
healing = done.
void Unhooking:
if m1 = true (on hooked survivor)
x = x + 1 * delta time
if x = 2
unhook = done.
Yes; yes it's a shorter generator. Because the shorter duration for the attached reward is shorter and that's literally the only difference.
Well, language is communal, so lets see.
https://www.strawpoll.me/17448116
And if this really needs to be said, no, unhooking someone isn't "doing a gen" because you don't need to unhook someone to escape the map.
@Free_Hugs
What?
I asked you what the definition of a vehicle was and you showed me a car. That's not communal. A car is not the definition of a vehicle.
Now pick one from your poll, because I only care about YOUR definition, not mine (:
no, one event is a keyDown (unhook), one is a keyUp (generator/healing).
this is the difference between a m1 holding and a m1 pressing.
Gen tapping is still a keyUp event.
The only exception is the struggle phase on the hook, but guess what... there's still a progress bar, and would be criticized just the same.
@Edys
You can cancel unhooking. It's not on pressing; in order to progress, you need to hold for all 3.
you are right, I was thinking about "hooking", not "unhooking" but wrote the opposite.
Now that you understood better what I was talking about, do you get it or not?
I don't think you know how exchange of information works.
Two individuals can only share an idea by understanding what it is they're actually discussing.
You clearly don't.
So I put up a poll to help. You can get a consensus on what people think "doing a gen" is that you'll then be able to refer to with your "they" "them" "everyone" drivel.
@Edys
So I'm no longer trolling for stating the fact, right? Although I'm not too surprise that you are able to abdicate from blatantly false claims as you are smart and did understand the issue with stealth and team-coms.
Do you understand what people were complaining about in the post about why people want second objectives?
I understand that you want to break the trinity;
Something like: "Break a vase and have a flying head follow you for x amounts of seconds that can fly through walls and will instantly down you when hit" is breaking that trinity as it would create custom chasing scenario's.
But there are 2 things about that:
1: It is not inherently what people complained about. (Which is simultaneously also not a real rebuttal to the idea of trying to break the trinity)
2: That through such solutions that try to play around with moving variables are significantly less likely to ever tackle core issues with the game, where as the part mechanic does address core issues of the game; namely death-efficiency, and is one of the most perfect methods at doing so.
(I mentioned leveraging time somewhere in the OP and the effects of survivor death + the example about side-objectives needing to have interplay between each other. The vase example wouldn't have any of such elements.)
When someone asks for a definition, giving an example is simply not a definition. As simple as that.
Also, what does "They", "Them", "everyone" have to do with the definition of doing a generator?
(Maybe you're mistaking a flat generator with doing gens?)
I simply ask for your definition. (or everyone elses). Now give me the one I should respond to. (:
You want to have a debate about Death-Efficiency then?
Generic insult. Unimpressed.
A lot more people were positive than negative about it. You for one were negative about it. Paddy as well.
But after all, paddy didn't see the inherent issue with the moonrise event linked to survivors leaving others alone to die on a hook, due to how the points worked and you believed a diminishing return method would result into problematically high outcomes, so that might say something about the credibility of your criticisms (;
More generic insults. Again, unimpressed.
You still avoided giving your definition. I've no idea why you'd not simply answer it. I defined all my terms.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape the issue with the sticks of beef thing is that in order for it to really be that you can do them instead of gens you need a mechanical difference from the suggestion in the op.
Because no matter how many sticks of beef you have it doesn't mean jack ######### if you don't walk up to a generator and hold M1 to give it charges
And also the analogy breaks down when you consider that the different "methods" interact with each other.
I can do a gen for 40 seconds, and THEN go and make then install the parts, doing this is meaningfully different from doing the whole thing with no parts and installing new parts from the start. However if the parts fill a separate bar then this interaction is lost (or in otherwords, a stick of beef would effectively be created in the act of doing a gen, however the act of creating a stick of beef would never be enough to fully complete a generator)
In addition there is the point about how eventually a generator is completed and you no longer can work on it in that location anymore. In the SoB analogy the mechanics wouldn't interact so you would effectively have 2 gens adjacent to each other where now we have 1 for a total of 14 power mechanisms only 5 of which are needed.
TLDR: Stick of beef doesn't work because in order to prove your point it needs to be meaningfully and mechanically different from what it is supposed to represent
@NuclearBurrito2
you''re not walking up to a generator. You are walking up to a stick, what are you talking about?
Nope, just sticks. The vanilla gens next beside of them never have to be touched.
No; the stick example works just like the flower example (they are identical). If I hadn't clarified it there then I'd assumed you to understand the part that the stick simply the container of the term Part-Gen, but if you find that example unnatural try the flower example:
(the flower example represents my op more perfectly as I think I didn't mention in the stick example that you wouldn't be able to work on a generator once a part is installed on a stick)
Once a part is installed that generator transforms into a flower. ---> You can complete the game without ever progressing a single generator.
(replace generator with flat generator and replace flower with par-generator and notice how the game-play is identical)
Well it was based from a misunderstanding generated from my part so for now you're good
Let's agree to disagree. I don't know what was posted in the topic you mentioned, but can we agree that the definition "dead by daylight is a m1 holding simulator" is broadly used and based on facts (I mean, you even demonstrated that something as trivial as unhooking is in fact a m1 holding simulator :P)?
The core "issues" of the game are also part of its strength - and by the way I still think that your proposal is too survivor sided in a swf team, while too killer sided in a solo-team, especially at low ranks. Yes you proposed some ways to circumvent the problem, but I still don't see where a sweet could be, and to be fair I don't see a sweet spot at all. It's like legion, you can change frenzy duration / deep wound progress all you want, but the mechanic doesn't work anyway.
i don't know what is the "perfect" solution, I can only assume what I would like to see in the game, that is something entirely different. I would enjoy to try even your proposal, don't get me wrong, but just because it's something "new", not because it solves anything. That's just my opinion, of course.
It’s clear he understands because he’s changed the OP idea to fit his argument. He wouldn’t need to do this if the logic wasn’t flawed.
He will continue to change his OP idea to fit a narrative, and you’ll agree with this new situational proposal, and he’ll then take that as an agreement to his OP idea.
You call it out as a false argument
rinse and repeat.
So in the analogy of the SoB
If I walk up to a generator and give it 40 charges. Then I stop working on the gen to collect 3 pieces of beef which I put on the stick next to the generator. And then I go back to finish the generator, assuming I have no items, always get good checks and am not being effected by any perks how long will it take me to complete the generator?
@Edys
Now if you look at the link posted in OP and in a comment above, do you see that the term: M1 simulation critique comes from the extended bar timers and not from the fact that you'll frequently need M1?; for the same reasons that shooters aren't aggressively (/in negative light) called R2 simulators.
As shown from the comments. People didn't mind doing totems (more M1) etc. The problem was that doing so wouldn't be them completing the main objective.
That is exactly what we are addressing in the OP. We make sure they get to move their legs and get to see the map > have chances to run into a chase, etc.
Doing some fun stuff with anti-trinity mechanics like the vase I just mentioned can of course be tried out! But there's no inherent reason for that to be a main objective, especially if they weren't part of a multi-route implementation, as this would make them MANDATORY and thus more repetitive as well!
I mentioned it to be the perfect solution to solving Death-Efficiency (the problem of the game malfunctioning balance-wise upon survivor death, mandating that the main game gets replaced by the hatch). The reason why it's perfect at addressing it is because you can see the part system as a system with
A: more possible places where you can be
B: you circumvent regression
C: you don't have to be at a certain location for too long (which is a little bit part of B )
Those are the fundamentals for making the game minimally functional for lower-survivor counts, which are all addressed through parts;
(link to this topic in the OP I think)
Yeah, the flower example is the better example. Remove the sticks; once you instal a part on a generator it transforms into a flower. (you then work on the flower. You can no longer work on the generator since of course a flower isn't the same as a generator.)
You wouldn't be able to work on a (flat)generator the moment you instal a part on a stick. You'd have to work on the stick instead.
Perks in the hypothetical version simple also affect sticks:
Perk x: Increase gen progression and stick progression by y/z/a
Again, let's agree to disagree - I mean, I can trust you that someone in the topic stated so, that doesn't mean this is the general consensus, nor my personal opinion.
Also, a shooter is not a button simulator because the "click" comes after (and during) "aiming", re-positioning, recoil correction and so on and so forth. Repairing a gen is a static endeavour, totem is static, healing is static... In fact the only "fun" parts come before and after those action (finding a gen / hiding from a killer coming / getting to a nice spot to heal your mate / searching for a totem...).
Yes, adding your mechanic increases the amount of time one is not holding m1 and is doing "something else", but is tedious all the same:
imagine that in order to take an item from a box you have to search the box, tap a gen, search the box again, tap a gen, search the box again... Yeah, you spend more time traveling but is it more fun? Not to me.
In fact I think my two unfavourite things in the game are mending (...10 seconds...) and removing a reverse bear trap (...12 seconds...).
@Edys
That is the beauty about holding m1 and that is that is becomes more exciting when the killer is nearby. In a shooter there's more to it than R2, but in DBD there's also more to it then pressing M1; consideration of whether you should be doing it; added pressure on your decision making when the killer is nearby and whether you can afford to be spotted, etc.
Doing a generators in the end game when there are few left in the end game is intense. In the early game; not so much.
When the killer is chasing someone, the chance of you having to make such considerations is very low. A lot of the time.
That is the beauty of parts: The players that aren't chased are moving through the map. There is a chance that the killer finds them out-positioned and suddenly turns on them. More frequently will you have an interaction with the killer when the killer is chasing someone else.
This is probably not for the reasons of being a short timer necessarily, but because what you "accomplish" by that is a removal of a negative reward rather than a reward, both while in a very fragile situation while compelled by a timer to hurry.
(That timer aspect is also what people complain about when it comes to camping and some believe it should stop ticking if the killer is close. Dealing with debuffs is never fun and doesn't feel like a victory.)
I also dislike the bear-timer and the mending, but I do like taking care of the dull-totems, which have a very similar timer and there's also running in between things.
A second objective (correct); An alternative to pressing M1 (referring to "gen-jockey m1 simulator")
You do get an alternative and through that alternative you aren't going to complete any generator with a bot that can only press M1.
return to gen and install part by...?
Complete gen after installing parts by...?
Like I’ve said it’s just an optional side step to doing a gen!
Only your optional side step means hold M1 somewhere else and moving between holding M1 again to complete the gen.
The side step may offer a different option but it is by no means a secondary objective or an alternative to doing a gen with M1.
most of the linked post was referring to the other listed objectives as not required mandatory to do in order to escape, and your idea is the same!
inflating holding m1 with the actual problem with holding m1-counter: +1
People'd want to do totems, chests etc, but it's simply always putting themselves behind since it's not mandatory.
also:
Misuse of the word mandatory in a multi-route main objective-counter: 3
Chests do not progress the 420/440 second timer directly, neither do totems. Doing Parts directly adds 15 seconds of irregressable progression.
Look. The point is that there are 7 locations with a thing. You need to give 5 of those 7 things 80 charges.
Creating a part does not change that nor does it even add charges, just like how hex: ruin and other gen stopping perks don't remove charges or increase the number needed.
Changing the name or model of the exact location does not change the fact that it is a thing that needs 80 charges. Flower, generator whatever it is semantics
If the parts were 100% always required then it would be meaningful since then completing a generator would require more than 80 charges
@NuclearBurrito2
Meaningful to what?
6 gens isn't enough for some people it seems. I bet these people are loving the load screen issues. 3 vs 1 and Noed, when you need every advantage you can get.
If gens go too fast it's on the player not the gane.
Yeap, you'd be surprised how many people claiming they want "second-objectives" simply just secretly want to add more gen-time so that they don't have to be confronted with their lack of skill.
They try to make extra gen time come in another form as to make it less obvious.
More than half of survivors are dying but some people can't realize the problem is with the way they play, not the gen times.
Although I do admit that some killers are better than others when it comes to pressuring survivors.
That is basically the whole proposal of your idea!
What do you mean making it less obvious? I've been explicitly pushing for new objectives which slow down the game
There is no hypocrisy here. Where as others simply want to nerf survivors, my suggestion creates a tool through which survivors can survivor better in the late-game but is inherently slower than the current 400 seconds.
That is both buffing the killer and survivor in a different area (and exactly the right ones as well)