So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
@Paddy4583
You had my answer ages ago. You simply decided to close your eyes;
In a multi-route environment neither routes are mandatory. Neither are they side-quests. Both are doing the main quest, but there are simply multiple ways to do so.
In case you still don't understand it after hearing it over 5+ times:
If you have to go to Rome and there are 5 pathways going directly to Rome, taking neither route is mandatory, but picking any of the routes is you doing the main objective.
In my OP there are 2 pathways. The existence of 1 allows you to ignore the other.
In the Handle example there is only 1 route, meaning that doing that route is mandatory.
In a multi-route environment no route is mandatory, but choosing (a mix) between the routes IS still mandatory, by definition of them being you doing the main objective.
I can't believe you all are still talking about side questing lol.
You want to go to Rome (fix a gen).
You have a car. (mouse 1 button on a plain gen)
There is a plane that goes to Rome (a gen with parts installed on them), but you don't have a ticket for it (the parts that need to be installed).
You can either take the car, or buy a ticket for the plane (producing a part and installing it) and then board the plane.
Buying the ticket is a side quest. Once the side quest is completed you open the alternative route to Rome. If you don't buy the ticket, you can still complete the main quest.
Now please, please, PLEASE stop this non sense everybody
@Edys
You don't need a car; You didn't need a gen. You needed a flower and parts.
Aka, you didn't need a flat gen; you needed a part-gen. Doing a gen is no longer 1 process. It's 2.
So simple and not meant to be funny, yet i chuckled.
You need a generator (remember the color scheme?).
The car is the generator.
Producing a part is a side quest, deal with it and move on.
So I cannot complete the game through just parts and the flower?
yes you can: once you complete your side quest an alternative route is opened.
Still, you need to complete the side quest in the first place.
It's the same as a Hex Ruin.
Hex Ruin slow the progression of generators (indirectly). You can "complete the game" by fixing hexed generators or plain generators, but in order to do the latter you first need to complete the side quest "cleanse the hex totem".
Why is it so difficult for you to just say "ok, building parts is a side quest"
?
@Edys
I can do flowers and parts. I never have to do generators. See how generators are a side-quest? After all, for something to be a main objective route, it has to be mandatory. Didn't you listen to what Paddy told you?
Because that'd be lying. Lying isn't difficult.
there are no flowers in dead by daylight, sorry, stick to reality please.
@Edys
Flowers refers to what I mentioned earlier. I said:
See the OP, but 1 thing changes: the generator transforms into a flower when a part is installed.
To do the thinking for you: Do parts >>> Do flowers >>> end the game without ever putting a charge into a single generator.
Why would it matter if generators become flowers or zombies or a bit of common sense?
before their transformation in Tyrannosaurus Rex, you still need to accomplish the side quest produce and install parts
yoi can’t do it because you know exactly what’s coming, I’m taking you evasion to conclude as the sign you agree and you acknowledge you’ve been mistaken.
Further reply’s evading will cement this idea further.
@Edys
What makes something a side-quest; simple question inherently?
@Paddy4583
LINE 1: x + 5 - y
LINE 2: x = 4.
LINE 3: y = 9
That is not evading telling you what y is.
LINE 1: In a multi-route environment no route is mandatory
LINE 2: My op is a multi-route environment.
LINE 3: Doing parts is not mandatory.
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
the addition being the collection of parts before doing a gen.
@Paddy4583
And I showed how this makes doing flat generators a side-quest. Since you don't need to do 80 seconds of gen time in front of a gen; that is an option.
I've said that countless of times;
Either both doing parts and doing flat gens are side-questing and there's no main objective or both are main objectives and neither side-questing.
@Paddy4583
The addition being doing up to 70 seconds more in front of a generator. up to 70 seconds of side-questing.
@Edys
Nothing about doing parts is sidequesting. When you are doing a part you are directly finishing 10 seconds of irregressable gen time. Installing it is directly doing 5 seconds of irregressable gen time; Why would doing 10 seconds of regressable gen time over 35 times more than you actually have to be main questing if it can be skipped over completely?
370 comments...
Why the ######### is there 370 comments?
Uhmm...
just adding time to gens, didn’t give optional routes. And was not the question.
You’ve stated that most people when they want secondary objectives just want to add more time to gens in the form of something else that is mandatory, inherently you believe this to be nothing more than a nerf to prolong the survivors escape, at least that was my understanding, Inasked you for clarity within the context of the example you gave, for some reason you can’t do this...
@Paddy4583
Yes
And I don't do that. There's no hypocrisy.
The main objective is to complete the gen,
option 1 do the gen
option 2 do something else before doing a gen.
All you did was add the word flat in front of a gen to deflect form the only difgrence being tha additional step that isn’t required to do the gen.
Because some people don't believe that progressing generators is the main objective in the game.
Some people believe that if you have to score 100 points and you have 2 options:
Pressing A gives you 1 point and pressing B gives you 5 points but can only be clicked 5 times, then they claim that pressing B is a side-quest to scoring points.
No paddy. Doing a part EQUALS doing about 15 seconds of a gen. You are in fact progressing a generator.
If you've done 5 parts' you've simply done 70 seconds of generator progression that is irregressable. That is doing the main objective.
What is a side-quest is doing 35 portions of 10 seconds of regressable generator progress at a generator, while these 35 portions were optional.
So in conclusion, there is no debate that your idea is an alternative to completing a generator, but at its basic level, it is still completing a generator with a side step (quest)
you can either just play the standard game we all do now and hold M1 and do the gen in the same time.
Or you can opt to spend time crafting/finding and going backwards and forwards to a gen, which in short will extend the total time of the process of completing a gen, the total time is extend because the buff time doesn’t negate the time it’s taken to craft, find, transport, install.
so basically it’s an optional way of extending gen times from there standard rate, by completing an additional objective in between that’s serves no function but to add time to the game as a whole.
When I when in the linked posts the argument was why do peope want more when there’s so much to do, and the majority were stating: but most of these are optional, and your idea is adding another optional objective, with no real risk reward functionality, which is really what I believe people to want in a secondary objective if it’s optional, but I genuinely believe people do just want additional mandatory steps to complete to escape, extending the much need time for a killer and the difficulty for a survivor.
Using the survial figures is not realivant because it assumes everyone plays to escape, which isn’t the case for all players and it doesn’t reflect a true picture of the game as a whole, so basing a resolution around the incorrect statistics results in errors, of which we have seen plenty.
@Paddy4583
Standard game? There's no such things as the standard game. There is just the game.
I'm sorry, but if you've been sitting at a generator for 80 seconds, you've been side-questing for 70 seconds.
Those 70 seconds sitting there putting in regressable charges were not mandatory. If it's not mandatory then it is....?
If it's not mandatory then it is............?
Well it's side-questing by your own logic xD
@Paddy4583
Doing parts equals doing a generator. Creating the part is literally finishing 10 seconds of irregressable gen time.
There is no redefinition. Your definition is; something that isn't mandatory to do for completing your main
Doing 70 seconds on a generator are simply not mandatory. They are just a bonus to what you can already do to parts.
I'm LITERALLY QUOTING YOU LMAO Go to page 2, bahaha:
From you:
If an objective is not mandatory it is side-questing. (your logic)
70 seconds of not mandatory side-questing you have right there.
Those are Nectar Juice babys, not flowers! Silly Wraith...
Doing parts does not equal doing a gen, the use for the part is for the completion of a gen, but the locating and crafting transporting, does not equate to doing a gen, that is a side quest for doing the gen...
and I don’t know why you’ve gone back to this topic, in the first place... oh wait yeah I do...
@Paddy4583
Coming back to a wrong position you still hold?
Doing a part DIRECTLY equals doing x amount of seconds in the 420/440 second main bar of progression. THAT MAIN BAR OF PROGRESSION is you doing YOUR MAIN OBJECTIVE.
Doing 5 Parts means minus 5*15 = 75 seconds from the 420/440 main objective bar. Yes that is doing your main objective xD
Doing exit gates also isn't doing Gens you genius. (Spoiler alert: Opening exit gates is doing the main objective)
Because of flowers, steak and other things that probably smell very good.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape
When are we going to talk about perfume?
?
Actually it's 80 CHARGES. It hasn't necessarily taken 80 seconds.
And no matter how many parts you install you still need to give 80 charges to the generator. Yes that is mechanically different from a part giving 10 charges thus reducing the number of charges, since if you work on a generator for 40 charges and then collect and install 3 parts before working on the remaining 40 charges it will take you 60 seconds without any additional modifiers. However if it instead directly granted the charges then installing the 3 parts would instantly complete the generator (renaming it to a flower does not change the fact that it took 80 charges which is the mechanical aspect).
Doing that would take a total of 105 seconds not counting travel time btw
Well we have flowers, known for smelling good. And we have sticks of beef which is delicious and tasty things smell good. So we need perfume next cuz that is also supposed to smell good (in theory anyways)
@NuclearBurrito2
We are talking about things that you do. There's no "To charge".
There's To sit still next to a gen for 80 seoncds or to go to workshops and install parts. Both directly subtract from the 420/440 second bar. It has nothing to do with charges.
It has to do with whether it subtracts from the 420/440.
@NuclearBurrito2
Main Objective:
That which reduces from the 420/440 second bar resulting in the escape route being opened up, Thus:
-Opening exit gates = -20
-Doing a full generator = -80
-Doing parts = - 15 per part
Things that don't subtract from this timer:
Healing: = Still 420/440 left to do
Sabotaging: = Still 420/440 left to do
Cleansing dull totem: = Still 420/440 left to do
etc.
Generator progress is measured in charges not seconds. This is because the amount of time it takes to progress it by 1 charge is not always 1 second, using a toolbox increases the number of charges per second and great checks suddenly increase the number of charges, hex: ruin decreases it and a brand new part adds 25 charges all at once.
And also having more than one person work on a single generator will both obviously install more than 1 charge per second but will also install less than 2 charges per second given 2 people working on the generator.
Same thing technically applies to the gates but it matters less there.
@NuclearBurrito2
So if I have all generators with 5 parts, you're saying that I still have 400 seconds left to do? (+the 20/40)
If not then I've indeed been doing the main objective.
Doing a part is NOT -15 per part. Since again if I do 40 charges of a generator before installing the part then I will not be decreasing the amount of time to do the remaining 40 charges by 15 seconds
no you have 400 charges. We don't measure progress in terms of time and if we did then cleansing ruin totems, opening chests that contain toolboxes, and healing in the case of thanatophobia would all ALSO be doing the main objective.
@Paddy4583
No this is how it works:
When you do a part you simply have 10 seconds of generator time. Which can still be undone/regressed. The moment it's installed it adds + 5 seconds and there's your permanent 15 seconds.
Also running in between what are essentially small generators isn't doing a side-objective. That is also doing the main objective. Otherwise it'd be playing "lava-floor"; as long as you walk you're side-questing.