was removing the kaneki vault back intentional?
i just watched otzdarva’s stream on the PTB and he was testing to see if you can still revault the pallet after Kaneki leaps over and now it seems virtually impossible. you will take damage 100% of the time if you’re anywhere near kaneki when he’s vaulting, no matter the timing.
i thought the revault was intended for counterplay since the vault speed is way too fast for regular looping around the pallet.
can a dev/community manager please shed some light on this and confirm if it’s intended that you can’t revault or if this is a new bug in the ptb? thanks in advance!
Comments
The purpose of looping is to buy as much time as possible for your team… not being in chase forever or escaping it…
This is moving goal posts. I never said anything about how frequent a ghoul is in enraged mode.
When i play ghoul i am only usually enrage vaulting against inexperienced players. When it's steam players with high hours, they know what to do, they force me to break the pallet.
I am also never getting enraged vaulted by ghouls myself either because i know what to do.
Yea and eating a down because there's no counterplay isn't looping. It shouldn't be a guarantee again Ghoul is in severe need of nerfs. Michael's horrible rework is a great example of this.
What's wrong with Michael's rework?
Yeah, no.. I went to custom and tried it again. The moment I pulled my power after that cancel, I could as well M1. I have no idea what you are on about with cancel fake…
Now you are just making things up. But hey, feel free to create a clip showing what you mean.
She was definetly never in top 3 highest kill rates, which does not reflect her power level….
Lol and based on what you think they are doing it? Spoiler alert: it's just kill rates
Lol, no you couldn’t. You have to completely leave your power to M1. Pretending like you don’t know what a Ghoul cancel fake is after doing it in the video means one of two things:
Either you really don’t play Ghoul at all, or you’re pretending you don’t to maintain a broken point. (Which won’t be taken seriously as feedback anyway, so it’s pointless.)
I don’t need to make a clip. You cancel-faked in the video, then turned around and said you don’t know what that means. That alone is enough proof that you don’t even understand how Ghoul works — which also explains why you don’t know how to counter him.
The devs have all the data. public Kill rates aren’t the only thing they use to judge how a killer is performing. If that were the case, Nurse would be getting buffed.
Nurse’s kill rate is high among top players, just like Blight. Can we see that exact data? No. You could argue that I’m assuming, but we all know Nurse is one of the strongest killers in the game, if not the strongest.
If the devs judged killers purely off public kill rates, then why have they never said Nurse was a mid-tier killer across all MMR brackets like they said about ghoul?
That alone suggests they look at more than just raw kill-rate statistics when evaluating how strong a killer actually is.
Yeah, I just went to custom and tried it. At point I pull up power after cancel, I can as well M1. Just don't be lazy and go into custom and try it.
If you actually watch the video, you can see the icon + "Charge Kagune Leap" after the cancel. At that point I can also M1…
So just making things up so your counterplay seems legit, or what?
They are not that oblivious, but killers who were not really that strong got nerfed because of their kill rates. Simply because their power was noob stompy… Sadako is good example
Also very weak killers are often not buffed, because their kill rate are good enough for devs → Trapper.
Devs actually said, he is in a good spot with his kill rate. Otz was not amused.
Are you new to DBD, so you don't know how devs use data (kill rates)? That would explain things…
Lol, if Ghoul pulls his power at a pallet, you keep running or double back for a pallet stun. Ghoul can’t grab on reaction unless you drop the pallet too early like you did in the clip.
In order for Ghoul to grab you, he can’t get stunned by the pallet. So he either has to commit and assume you won’t drop it, or use his power outside of the pallet’s stun radius. That’s the entire reason he has to guess — it’s not on reaction.
Nobody just sits at a pallet across from Ghoul like you did in the video unless he leaped. And even then, you just time his animation. If he’s in leap like in the clip, you just run away. You’ll gain distance because of his movement penalty. Or you can double back and pallet stun him.
All the clip you posted really showed is that you don’t understand the basic fundamentals of looping or Ghoul’s mechanics.
You just proved it to truly be a skill issue.
You do realize there’s data the devs have that they haven’t shared with us, right? People have been asking for that information for years.
They don’t balance killers based only on public data. Did you actually think that’s all they look at?
If that were the case, Nurse would have been buffed.
And you’re asking me if I’m new?
You said "outside of these conditions" the condition is ghoul being enraged which an average ghoul always is enraged there is no moving goalposts your expecting players to use counterplay that rarely exists so it can't be used often
Yes plural, conditions, they all have to met. 🤦
Yeah, I think I know where is the issue. You failed to notice I didn't leap there… I just pulled my power when we got to the pallet.
Sure, it works if Ghoul dashed to you, because he will enter cooldown, but you are completely wrong on this one. You could see I have all tokens ready.
Also in situation, where he did dash there, it's better to just drop pallet anyway as soon you see he canceled the power. Why would I greed to be forced into 50/50 later when he will have power ready?
Ok, what data could that be? Based on what data can you actually estimate power level of the killer?
Players do it basically on personal experience, how would you do it if you only have access to outcomes of matches?
We have seen them talk about kill rates so many times related to their balancing, but now they definetly started to use something else… Source: "trust me bro"
It definetly seems like you are, or just didn't pay attention to patch notes. Nothing wrong with that.
😂 I think it’s pretty obvious who’s new, going by the clip you sent. Not to mention how you just segmented a piece of my explanation showing why the clip you presented makes zero sense in the context of what you’re trying to argue.
At this point, it’s hard to take what you’re saying seriously anymore. Nobody with any consequence of the game is going to watch that clip and see a balance issue, they’re just going to see a clear lack of in-game knowledge.
Ah, not going back to you talking about the clip with completely wrong assumption. "Issue is you drop early", lol
Not really early when killer can M1 you :D
Then trying to came up with new tech of cancelfake, noone else ever talked about, just to try make your comments legit.
I actually went into full depth explaining why your clip makes no sense and shows none of the counterplay against Ghoul. But you ignored it, because you can’t counter something you don’t understand — or didn’t even know existed.
Especially when it seems like you don’t even care if you can counter it. Your clip made it pretty clear you just want to pre-drop pallets and feel untouchable while you run away in a straight line like a lot of survivors do. 😂
Before you even learn how to counter Ghoul, you should probably learn how he actually works. Learn his different techs. You really posted a clip of yourself standing on the opposite side of a pallet from a Ghoul while he’s in his power… just to prove you don’t know how to time a pallet drop against him.
At this point there’s not much left to say. You pretty much proved it yourself that it was a skill issue.
Oh, yeah the infamous cancelfake… Mythical tech of ghoul
I know you are beginning in dbd, but when Ghoul walks to a pallet, he has secret "tech" of vaulting with his first dash. Which he can easily cancel, or M1 however he likes. I know, very advanced, but you can get there.
Which means on long loops, it doesn't matter what you do, if he doesn't miss play, you are dead :)
Well, I don't know how to play against Ghoul, but at least I am able to watch a short clip correctly :D
Oh, right. That's why I wasted my time in custom trying his limits. That makes sense.
Would be nice if there was a valid counterplay, but there is none…
Which you can easily counter aswell 😂
At least you admitted it thats step 1. Step 2 is being willing to learn something outside of shift + S
You went in customs to give yourself a excuse to why you cant counter him
Il just copy and paste the help i gave you.
if Ghoul pulls his power at a pallet, you keep running or double back for a pallet stun. Ghoul can’t grab on reaction unless you drop the pallet too early like you did in the clip.
In order for Ghoul to grab you, he can’t get stunned by the pallet. So he either has to commit and assume you won’t drop it, or use his power outside of the pallet’s stun radius. That’s the entire reason he has to guess — it’s not on reaction.
Nobody just sits at a pallet across from Ghoul like you did in the video
I already explained the counterplay. I can’t make you learn it — you have to want to. But I wouldn’t wait around for a nerf just because you don’t feel like figuring it out. 😂
That clip is like uploading a clip of you trying to loop a knight minion to prove he cant be countered lmao.
You realize there would be no fatigue? I DIDN'T USE POWER YET
So doing it later does nothing, outcome is vault for free down :)
I can't learn something that doesn't work.. This can be used on shorter loops, definetly not the one in clip. You can't greed such long loop, that's like trying to greed shack pallet: you die
Well, I will just wait for next game… That worked so far well for me, Ghouls are not happy about it, so I guess that means counterplay of "go next" works very well
He was sitting behind the pallets hitbox in his power. you could have just ran around and vaulted. You dropped it way to early.
It works its just a skill issue, me and many other have no issues countering ghoul.
DC’ing because you can’t counter a basic mechanic right after posting a clip that shows the misplay is wild 😭. The killer didn’t even need to outplay you, the mechanic already did.
That's exactly my issue, I am happy you finally understand :)
Player (Ghoul) doesn't need to do anything for it…
If the mechanic beats you without the killer doing anything, that’s called a self inflicted outplay.
Well, so revault can stay :)
You wouldn't want to be beaten by mechanic…
Lol, Ghoul defenders never cease to amaze me :D
You really want to compare Trapper with Ghoul?
Sure Ghoul vault can stay, if he needs to walk around the map and pick up tokens for his power….
Also how exactly are we going to disarm the Ghoul next to a pallet? I have not heard about this tech.
It’s actually pointless. You can’t convince or teach someone who refuses to engage with or learn something because their emotions about it are too strong. A lot of people in the community are like that.
The devs don’t take that kind of feedback seriously. They created the killer and are fully aware of his counterplay. That’s why they haven’t taken complaints like this seriously and have kept him largely the same.
Your post was beautifully articulated, I applaud it. I will add that there were more options in that situation; that wasn’t the only counter available.
My issue is with his kit, he shouldn't have even an option to be in situation where his power is guaranteed down. Yet alone when it's supposed to be one of most save loops…
I don't know about you, but standing on other side of god pallet is not perfect condition to be in for most killers.
Also Wesker wouldn't down me there, because his vault is slower and doesn't hinder survivors.
Sure, get Ghoul vault on power level of Wesker and I have no issue with it. But right not it's way stronger, which doesn't make sense for killer with free injury and counter to hold W.
Another reminder for you: Xenomorph, Huntress, Dracula, Nurse, Executioner, and Artist will kill you in the exact same scenarios and conditions you provided for Ghoul.all of them bar ghoul also have to earn their first hit in chase and cant get it for free, I know point of post was to point out counterplay to the scenario and props to showing video. But just wanted to point out as alot of peoples issue with ghoul is he has too much kit for how low his skill floor is.
The problem is that he has animation glitches so that the survivors can't see whether he's using his powers or not.
The counter play is meant to be that you look at his stance. If he's trying to use his power, you don't drop the pallet. Otherwise, you drop the pallet.
But since the animations are bugged, the survivors often have no way to know what he's doing. So that breaks the counterplay.
^ That is the intended counter play, which is broken. You were never meant to be able to vault back against him - despite what their patch notes are claiming, BHVR have contradicted themselves with the vault back.
They tried to remove the vault back previously by simply increasing the Ghoul's hitbox after he did the vault, but the result was that he could hit survivors around corners, and the funny part is that they could still vault back through the Ghoul.
So, it's just a matter of BHVR creating a lot of bugs when developing him, and not knowing how to fix it.
The animation bug you’re referring to is supposedly called the “Armint” tech that a YouTuber posted about. Me and some buddies on Discord tried to reproduce it in customs using the instructions from the video, but we couldn’t get it to happen.
I’m not sure if it’s some rare animation issue or something else, but in my games, especially after they patched the vault glitch that bugged his animations, it’s always worked as intended.
Either way, it should still be fixed if it does happen, even if it’s rare.
They fixed one of the "techs" (don't remember the name, might have been the tech you tried), but there's still plenty of ways to trigger it. Some of them are even accidental. Ghouls could trigger it without even knowing.
Ooooh, so that’s why that slide animation happens. I was watching a streamer who was getting it consistently and I was wondering how in the hell they were doing it, but it makes sense now.
As far as ping goes, I figured the core cause of the animation bugs people talk about might be ping related. I mentioned that in another post.
Still though, that Gravity slide animation is so satisfying when it happens 😮💨
his myriad of animation bugs make this form of counterplay unnecessarily difficult, and the bugs are so easy to do you can do them accidentally.
Any updates in regards to this with the Live release coming in a week
If people continue buying it to win matches without skill requirements, it will remain the king of pay to win games.
if you only know of this counterplay then thats on you . Ohtofu made a great guide on many ways to counter the ghoul.
Kaneki is not overpowered. That's really enough of this nonsense.
Kinda funny you mentioned that video, considering he said revault as counterplay to his vault. That's basically only option you have, if loop doesn't have short enough side, where you can try to win 50/50.
So… they've done a complete 180 and just removed it entirely. Now the ability (to vault pallets) is trivial. Unless they made is so the killer has consistent collision (which is what they should do instead of automatic injures) which i doubt…
@Mandy please explain why was this done
I'd really like them to be consistent with all these "techs" where is the fix to shift tech at killer shack? Where is the fix to crouch tech (that was "patched" a year ago but still totally works).
If they just make the collision consistent, there’d be no need for the free hit to occur at all. Survivors can now literally just walk into you WHILE you’re vaulting, and vault back.
Is this counterplay? Skilled??? Just walking through the killer and vaulting back with no repercussions!? I mean go ahead and remove the vault if you’re gonna make it borderline useless.
I can’t think of a single scenario where you’d want to vault a pallet now, lol.
@PetTheDoggo the vault damage got removed
This patch note pretty much answers the whole debate. The automatic hit at the end of a Kagune Leap vault clearly was not intended counterplay, because they removed it outright. And the way it is written is pretty unambiguous, so there is not much room left for interpretation. At least now it is clear what the intended behavior is.
Yes, finally… Already S tier patch, I will even get over WoO 2.0 for this.
Well, I will have to test how difficult is to get the revault.
the automatic damage being removed is 100% right. But i dont think you can revault after a leap vault.
Automatic injure was intended which meant that revault wasn't. Now the opposite is true.
No, the revault was not and still not intended. The automatic hit was to counteract that issue but its to buggy, hitting people around corners so it got removed.
how is revault not intended now when they removed the countermeasure?
Because the countermeasure was there to prevent the revault but it literally hits people around corners its really buggy. I doubt they didn't make tweaks to the collision after taking it away.