Why complain about Genrushing?
It's literally the main/only objective to do in the game for survivors next to unhooking and totems. Having an issue with survivors Gen rushing is like telling them not to play the game. Yes, it sucks to watch 3 gens pop in a singular chase that took you longer than you would have liked to finish, but…..it's….the point of the game….I really don't understand why people get so bitter about it.
This is a legit question. No bitterness, just intrigued.
Survivors and Killers both make some arbitrary rules towards one another and what can constitute as "Toxic behavior". Just curious why this is even one of them.
Comments
"Genrushing" isn't the same as tunnelling, slugging, and camping though. While being genrushed the killer still has 100% control of their character and can play the game. The reverse is not true. A slugged or hooked survivor is just removed from actively participating in the game and able to do nothing fun. Generators are 90 seconds of no fun but mandatory for the victory conditions.
Gen slowdown and tunnelling, slugging, and camping are all no fun for survivors. Only chasing, or narrowly escaping with a neat hide or mindgame are really fun. Anything that reduces the fun bits should be weighed carefully and same goes for increasing the no fun bits.
Plus with tunneling you can run full meta and still get value out of all your perks while gen rushing requires the whole team to dedicate their builds to it.
Chases are the funnest aspect of the game, but since BHVR is constantly nerfing every single map for survivors, adding killers with insane chase powers, buffing others to have crazy chase powers and introducing more and more chase perks, the best way to win is to stack gen progression perks as even with chase perks you are counting on the killer to make mistakes in order for chases to be long enough for the survivors to be able to win.
Kind of missing the prior messages that leads up to what @ChuckingWong is replying to.
Not really, they used one single match to degrade the genrushing complaints, so I did the same for all of his complaints as well.
"The generators are the survivor's objective but they're not really the point. The point is to interact with the killer."
??? What in the world are you on about? That's like saying shooting baskets isn't the point of basketball. It's about steals and rebounds.
Oh yeah and, unfortunately, thats why there is no reason to continue discussing anything with them.
They have no data, nothing tangible, nothing realistic, just endless what if and hypotheticals. Just look at all the responses I got from actual game footage of my matches; more hypotheticals, more guess work; all to defend their narrative.
I was half expecting one of them to respond to me with some sort of tournament footage, justifying why THEY tunnel.
Like you stated perfectly. They have already drawn a conclusion and convinced themselves. Even in the face of something showing them the opposite. Its a defense mechanism at the end of the day, its up to them to change that mindset noone else. But that would be admitting wrong or fault, so dont hold your breath.
We can just only hope BHVR sees this kind of stuff and make sure they understand where critical analysis comes from; versus circular reasoning and hypothetical excuses.
A lot of it is echo chamber, up to them if they want to approach these things or not.
Okay everyone, stop playing the objective efficiently!!!
@crogers271 is actually correct here you are missing the point of the argument, drawing a false equivalence, and it was 2 videos of gameplay footage, not a single match.
You posted no footage unfortunately. So you did not do "the same" in any capacity.
So I will just stick with your false equivalence for a response:
There’s a big gap between:
Me:
vs.
You:
One is presenting real evidence to analyze. The other is just trying to cancel it out with vague anecdotes and deflection.
If you want to challenge the gameplay I posted, do it with your own footage under similar conditions, not just hypotheticals. Otherwise, this isn’t an honest debate, it’s just more of the same responses already given to me.
"Genrushing" isn't the same as tunnelling, etc.
Well in its core it is. Its just going solely for main objective, genrushing isnt fun for killer same as tunneling for survivor. Claiming killer can control genrushing is almost the same saying survivors control slugging, little bit yes but not fully(with perks and coordination, or altruism). Some killers dont have key thing to do something about fast gens and thats mobility and to some degree antiloop(leathality) meaning billy can down and travel fast and weaker killer like dredge can only travel across map but in weaker state, then we have killers like mayers who is held in game only by strong addons and has no mobility and antiloop( his lunge isnt that good and fast vaults do little thing without combination o perks like bamboozle or superior anatomy). So not all killers can influence genrushing and cant tunnel or slug well as some others.
Tunneling will be in the game because its best way for killer to get his objective fast and it slows survivors very well( less survs alive means when someone is hooked and another one is chased there isnt fourth survivor doing gens). Only way to stop killers prefer tunneling and spread hooks more is to reward them for it ( or play super strong killer like blight to dont need tunneling ).
Why complain about tunneling?
The more I play this game the more I am convinced "X Killer is bad/weak because of good Survivors" is an oxymoron and never actually was true to start with. I get decent Survivors plenty often that know to do gens, coordinate, how to loop, how to use resources against me, etc. I get people who know to selectively lock lockers against Dredge, tight-loop against Nemesis, stare at Ghostface, break line of sight and use lockers against Myers, do tapes against Sadako, and be careful with headtraps and loops against Pig. And I am still seeing an average of a 2-4k, with the occasional 1k depending on map, MMR mismatching, etc.
I am utterly convinced that all tierlists really measure is how hard you may have to play against a decent team as a given Killer, not how good their kits or abilities actually are. There is no such thing as a perfect SWF that makes 0 mistakes. All Survivors are human, so all Survivors make mistakes. Even the bots are programmed to make mistakes sometimes.
It's not that a supposed "bad" Killer can't win against "good" Survs - as we have established here, "Bad Killers" do not exist truly and it all depends on the player and their opponents' skill levels plus a bit of RNG. Rather, it's actually the case that most Killers and Survivors are pretty average, and at average MMR, every Killer is pretty much a tier higher than you'd think.
I couldn't say it any better my friend
Knightlight is at 160 4-men escape streak for not with team Invictus. They managed to 4-out Blights with full meta builds multiple times, some of those even P100. Does that mean Blight is a weak killer and needs to be buffed? Absolutely not.
With current matchmaking good players on both sides will consistently make good results.
The main problem with the game atm is that low mobility killers have absolutely no way to put pressure onto survivors other than managing to force an early 3v1, and they are hardcore punished for it too.
Even if you have antiloop killer, as long as that killer lacks mobility (Clown for example), they won't be able to put pressure on multiple gens because they can't traverse fast to multiple spots of the map.
On the other hand, high mobility killer without chase potential would find themselves in a same spot.
Good luck managing to do even 5 stages on good teams on average as these killers.
This logic is so flawed it's why anecdotal evidence is literally the worst form of evidence by your logic solo q doesn't need a buff because you 4 man outed against a Nurse on Haddonfield with 4 slowdown perks once so its ok
This bit's kinda disingenuous.
First off, 'so much basekit' entails a singular change. Ten seconds of endurance off hook is the only thing that survivors got as basekit anti-tunnel. Labeling it 'so much' is disingenuous.
You can absolutely still camp, and anytime people point that out, everyone is quick to jump in with the boilerplate 'it's anti-FACEcamp' remark. Just because you can't park your behind in front of the hook and just pseudo-AFK anymore doesn't mean camping can't be done.
You can absolutely still regress gens, you just can't make your entire playstyle revolve around perma-regression anymore. As BHVR staff mentioned, the 8 regression limit was chosen because it was so far above the normal regression event count. The average was like 3-4, so the 8 barely ever gets touched on. In addition, saying 'you can't regress gens' when the top-most picked perk is still Pain Res, with Pop Goes the Weasel, Surge and Nowhere to Hide in close pursuit means you're just flat-out wrong.
It's also disingenuous to involve perks when it comes to anti-tunnel, which is entirely dependent on perks, but then disregard perks when it comes to endgame defense. Remember Me, No Way Out, NOED, Terminus, lots of perks that focus specifically on the end-game to the point where there's even a strat that revolves around making gates take so long to open that the EGC kills all the survivors for you. If you want to count perks when it comes to making tunnelling difficult, you have to also count perks that massively bolster the killer's endgame. You can't add them in on the survivor side, and then exclude them killer-side, that's not fair.
NOED was completely unreasonable in its original form and the nerf it got still keeps it sufficiently powerful to be a legitimate tool and threat.
But the reason killers don't get 'second chances' is because the killer can win at any given moment in the game. You have a constant chain of endless chances to win. At every single second of a match, right up until the third survivor walks out the trial, you have a chance to win.
This does not go for survivors, at all.
And honestly, the most clear indicator of this is that with all of these alleged 'second chances' at winning? Survivors are still not winning nearly as much as killers are. Not even close.
I don't complain about tunneling and camping. They're just tools in the killer's arsenal.
However, complaining about "gen-rushing" is different. That would be like the survivors complaining about the killer downing or hooking survivors AT ALL.
The killer can still hook, kill, and win without tunneling or camping. But how are survivors supposed to NOT gen-rush? Are they supposed to say, "Hmm, let me let go of this gen and wander over here and see if there's a random dull totem I can cleanse for no reason…"???
The pace of the game is determined by the killer. Don't like gen-rushing? Go scare them off the gens. Want them to bring out a different tool from their kit, such as looping? Then chase them.
Killers get a choice, survivors don't.
I think you missed the "AND PERK PROTECTION" part of my statement there.
Same way survivors complain about tunneling or whatnot (and they do it FAR more than genrush complaints let me tell you that): Because people are whiny, entitled and immature. Opening a game where you play against someone else and complaining that they are doing their objective is absurd.
I think you missed literally everything I wrote.
Also, you wrote 'so much basekit and perk protection', which isn't the same as 'basekit and so much perk protection'.
The point was proven during all the slugging debacle. When survivors get hooked, they get access to a ton of second chance things and become extremely strong. My point still stands. We are getting tons of "anti-some-killer-playerstyle-we-dont-like" mechanics in play and not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
What?
You got hook respawns. You got medkit nerfs. You got map offering changes. Talking about genrush, you got a free bonus ten seconds per gen, and now survivors will spawn clumped to make them take longer to split.
Killers don't get any perks the way survivors do because killers get it all rolled into basekit.
yes but shouldn't both sides have have not just one?
And yet its still not enough. Try watching a comp game where the killer is playing trapper.
'It's still not enough' is a very far cry from 'Not a single thing', isn't it?
Killer designed to exploit scenarios where there isn't survivor communication struggles in scenarios where there is survivor communication. Story at 11
Seriously, if "sometimes the game is hard when entering a scenario that is explicitly unfavorable" is the best you can offer for scenarios of imbalance, it's really hard to take this in good faith
Anti gen tap: one mechanic single handedly eliminated the practice entirely. You physically can't stop a gen from regressing during chase because it's impossible with that one change.
Free lightborn on locker grab, effectively killed double locker saves (and good riddance).
Anti hiding is also included in this phase, part of that being the crows rework. This is directly and exactly "a play style killers don't like".
Distortion also was changed for this exact purpose. You could even argue with the way wake up was nerfed, it was to reduce selfish "hide for hatch/door solo" play style.
Adrenaline was nerfed because having a perk that did nothing until end game was too much. Now the perk can actually do nothing all game if the killer checks notes oh yeah, does nothing differently to hard counter it.
Compared with:
AFC is a casual recommendation to, please, eventually move slightly farther from the hook. Oh you can still hit the survivor on hook, there's no penalty for that, you just need to take a step back at some point. Take your time, wouldn't want to inconvenience you.
Base kit BT was much needed, but also came with the "compensation" of gutting DS and making all other anti tunnel protection endurance based. Oh, and endurance doesn't stack either, so now there's a base kit way for killers to disable your tunneling perks. Have fun!
We could have 200 killers in the game and there would still be posts 'but what about Trapper, high MMR?'
He was challenged to post a video of his play under certain circumstances. He did that and warned against moving the goalposts. Now there are posts acting like he started the argument with videos of his gameplay instead of in response to a challenge.
Playing trapper or ghoustface without strong gear(persk and addons) feels like chasing survivors with pain in lower back. Yes its supper satisfying
when your power works and you feel like playing chess with other team, placing traps in strategic places or sneaking around map marking survivors and 99 them for future exposed downs.
i think its a matter of certain killers being weak/slow at snowballing pressure in those situations, so when you play trapper and lose 3 gens and only have 1 hook, it simply feels impossible to come back from, although the survivors arent doing anything wrong, its a power imbalance for certain killers.
Friend, feeling helpless is a thing even if you are not actually helpless. And since you mentioned Killers here, let's talk about that.
Thing is, just because the Killer, who is not actually helpless, can move around and attack and do things doesn't mean they can't feel helpless to prevent Survivors from winning if the Survivors are just better than that player is. I may well be able to push Survs out of the gate at any time, but I might still feel like my agency to actually do my job and kill them was taken from me and that isn't fun. It might not be logical to think this way, but human emotions about stuff aren't always logical and you can definitely feel helpless while still being able to technically do stuff.
Well what about Survivor side then? The exact same is true of Survivors here. I feel helpless when I am slugged as Survivor. That's not fun. But I can technically still crawl and be picked up by someone or use a perk to get up, which is technically agency right, even though I can do nothing else to progress the round. By your logic here, that Killers having "agency" in situations that can make them feel helpless, a Survivor being tunneled is not helpless because they can continue the chase, and a Survivor being slugged is not helpless either because they can crawl. That's obviously not correct though, just because they can move doesn't mean they can do anything…
And that's why people compare genrush and slugging. Because both make the player feel helpless to stop it themselves, regardless of whether that is or is not true.
While this is all true, we need to consider that if killrates are a problem due to these changes the Devs can and will rebalance Killers struggling due to it around this, so everyone is back at 60% again. If it's true a Killer needs to slug, tunnel, camp, etc. for their kill rate and these changes nerf them too much, the Devs will fix it. There is good reason everyone got buffed and upgraded before these changes went to live or were even discussed.
But the point we are making is that is fine, they can claim they are going to do that. But at the glacier pace that the devs make changes to this game, we are gonna be waiting years for things to be put back into place.
This is a nearly 10 year old game with a lot of spaghetti code. I'm not surprised the changes are so glacial.
I hear you, but what can survivors do NOW, with the CURRENT in game mechanics? Because let’s be honest here, those complaining about so called “gen rushing” make it sound like it’s the players’ fault who are playing survivor. Like survivors choose to play like jerks for being efficient with gens. Tunneling is a choice- effective or not, players using killers have an option to play like that. Survivors can either “rush” gens or annoy the killer with flashlight/flash bang saves, body blocking, and saboing hooks- which make the killer’s objective more frustrating and harder. So anyone pushing this “gen rushing” nonsense need to pick their poison.
Another aspect people are not taking into consideration is that the longer a match goes on, the survivors chances of escaping decreases. The biggest cause of this is because resources (pallets & items) get depleted. What also doesn’t help is that maps are getting smaller, pallet numbers are decreasing, tiles are getting crappier, and filler pallets are getting worse. Good survivors understand this so they know it’s not in the team’s best interest to ######### around. Do gens and get the hell out.
My issue is this projection that survivor players are being ######### for “Gen rushing.” They literally have nothing else to do other than not participating in the match or annoying the killer by preventing hook states.
What’s going to happen if the PTB crows make it to live? Yall think “gen rushing” is a problem now, wait till these strict crows push immersive players to hop on gens now.
“Gen rushing” is not a player problem, it’s a game mechanic problem. My solution is to give every killer secondary objectives that require survivors to interact with or face a tough match for failing to do so. Examples of killers who have secondary objectives are: Alien, Sadako, Pig, Pin Head, Freddy, Merchant, & Singularity. Hell, even the killers with minor secondary objectives (Nemesis, Doctor, Legion, Wesker, Trapper, Vecna, Dredge, Unknown, etc.) at least slow the game down a little and give survivors something else to do.