Exit gates need to be blocked for 15 seconds after closing hatch to prevent hatch stand off
Not blocking the exit gates leads to the same situation as hatch stand off. It varies depending on the map but if the hatch spawns far away from the exit gates, which is guaranteed to occur on certain maps, e.g. The Game, Lery's, and Badham, the survivor can wait at the gate to start openning it the moment hatch is closed, which allows them to open the gate before the killer can reach it. Steps:
- Survivor waits at gate for killer to close hatch
- Killer closes hatch
- Survivor immediately starts openning gate
- Killer walks straight to gate
- Gate is already openned by the time killer arrives
The killer cannot make it to the gate even if it they walk directly to it (with 4.6 m/s). The only counter play is to wait on the hatch without closing it until the survivor gives up. This is a hatch stand off. Example:
https://www.twitch.tv/seth_kills/clip/RoundSleepyPterodactylBabyRage-XqTPKnL3dyuTbl3YThis is a near optimal example with only 2 seconds of time waste. Under normal circumstances, the killer isn't going to walk in a straight line to the correct gate with 0 time waste. They're going to check the closer gate and look around for the survivor. Also, if he was playing a standard m1 killer, he would have to hit the survivor. This gives them extra time (2.7 sec) to open the gate + escape with injured speed boost. Also, this isn't a large map. On larger maps, e.g. Nostromo, The Game, and Lery's, he wouldn't have even been close.
The gate should be blocked for 15 seconds the moment hatch is closed. It won't be like No Way Out where it is only blocked when the survivors touch the gate. This change will only impact people abusing this strategy. There will be virtually no impact to survivors looking for hatch as normal since survivors typically attempt to open the gate in last 20%-30% of the end game timer and running to the gate takes more than 15 seconds most of the time, so the gate will already be unblocked by the time they reach it.
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The solution is to avoid the killer's ability to body block the hatch. Enable the survivor to sneak up quickly and go through from behind/etc. If the killer has an issue with it then they should have just shut the hatch when they found it.
Eh... since when does The Game have exits who are far away from each other?
Also your suggestion doesn't change much. If you block the exit switch survivors will just hide while you search the gates then use the red light start to get out anyway.
Midwich. Your point is invalidated.
Always? The Game is one of the hardest maps to patrol the Exit Gates. That isn't relevant anyway. It's because the Hatch always spawns in the lower level, so reaching the exit gate after closing hatch takes a long time.
Would make no difference. The killer just has to look around while standing on the hatch and close it when they see the survivor.
I literally linked a clip in which closing hatch = escape. The survivor was waiting at the exit gate to instantly open the gate as hatch is closed. Without mobility, the killer cannot reach the survivor in time to stop them openning the gate. Therefore, close hatch = escape. In the clip, the only counter play was waiting on the hatch until the survivor gives up.
Yes. As long as both sides have equal power to end the hatch stand off, both sides are equally at fault. You keep thinking the killer is more at fault, which is incorrect.
Same as the current hatch stand off. One side has to accept an escape or death for it to end.
I have no idea what you are talking about but if you did gens, that would be in the killer's favour. In that scenario, I would close hatch and immediately run to the completed gen. As a survivor, doing gens is strictly worse than waiting as a completed gen would reveal your location. Also, I would no longer need to afk on the hatch since I know the survivor is not waiting at the exit gate to open it instantly.
The biggest reason is that if the killer found hatch, they should be rewarded for it. When a survivor finds hatch, they get an escape. When a killer finds hatch, they get nothing. There is a massive disparity between killer and survivor for hatch. Killers should be rewarded for finding hatch to make it even.
Also, I don't know why people keep thinking this is a massive buff for killers. This change would literally not matter for most games and would probably only increase the kill rate by 0.1%. In almost every game, survivors start openning the gate in the last 50% of the end game timer. The gates would be unblocked by then, so the gates being blocked initially would have 0 impact. I already explained this in my post:
Also, the survivor is equally at fault. When the survivor hides, they are forcing the killer into giving up and closing hatch.
No, and that doesn't matter. It's a problem when they are abusing the strategy. It's impossible to know whether they are using the strategy or not, which is why it's hard to counter it.
False. My suggestion still leaves things to chance. My suggestion just prevents survivors from abusing the instant door open strat. Survivors still have a chance to open the door normally i.e. play the game normally instead of cheesing for the escape. I'm not against chance. I'm against a strategy that heavily favours survivors. The odds are like 80% in favour of survivor when using the strategy.
As long as you aren't fine with removing base kit Borrowed Time, you can't tell me to run No Way Out instead of patching hatch stand offs. There will always be a flaw in your argument, which you should run Borrowed Time or Off The Record instead of having it base kit.
It's RNG, but it's a problem when it occurs. The old hatch stand off was RNG too. Both survivor and killer running to the hatch at the exact same time is complete RNG. Old hatch stand off was patched out despite it being RNG, so the current hatch stand off should be patched out too.
I'm not against playing for doors when it's fair, but if it's heavily in favour of survivor, I would rather sit on hatch. This change is intended to make exit gates fairer by eliminating a cheese strategy.
You're still contradicting yourself. You keep mentioning that this change would "make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up". This change only benefits killers when they close hatch. By saying that this change would make things easier for killers sitting on hatch, you are admitting that these killers would close hatch and hence benefit from the change.
I agree here. No one should be so hard pressed to get a 4k. The killer can see the exit gates the entire end game and they are fairly easy to monitor. If anything if it's down to two survivors hatch open and see who gets it first then the last survivor needs to unlock the gates. Unfortunately most games have 2 gens or more with 2 survivors and it is quite difficult to get a win. Then we enter the survivor standoff.
These killers need to understand you can't win every game with a 4k.
But you clearly want to benefit from the change by closing the hatch. The "sitting on gate" strategy is the only viable strategy that Survivors have left, and you're wanting to take that away from them and leave them with no strategy at all, thus guaranteeing the 4k.
Seriously, you're starting to sound like that one guy who constantly complains about losing their only kill due to the 4% self-unhook or Deliverance, announcing every time it happens to them and begging to get rid of 4% and self-unhook perks in endgame.
If the "sitting on gate" strategy is the only viable strategy, why don't survivors just instantly die if they don't open the gate in the first 30 seconds of hatch close? You mentioned in previous comments that the hatch is intended to close out the game faster. By your logic, there's no point of keeping the game going after 30 seconds since the survivor is "guaranteed to die" when they don't open the gate immediately. The survivor should just instantly die at 30 seconds to "close out the game faster".
Also, this guaranteed to die argument is bs. There are definitely maps where gates cannot be easily patrolled, e.g. The Game, Lery's, and Hawkins. These maps highly favour survivor for the exit gates.
Ok let us be clearer then: Closing hatch =/= automatic survivor escape followed by the rest of that list.
Also the guy in the clip was getting stuck on smiling rocks and bamboo…is that the standard you want to go by? We also don't see the survivors perks in the clip, we're they running the only 2 things that actually speed up the gate (not that they woulda needed it if they kept that kinda pathing)? We can't see.
You apparently conveniently forget that the killer can close hatch when they find it. What is equal power to you as this doesn't seem equal to us. The survivor has some blame sure, but for us the majority falls on the killer's shoulders because they can end any hatch stand off as soon as they find it. You claim we're incorrect, how so?
Incorrect, one side can close a route and force an RNG based….round? Unsure of the proper word, but no its not the same. Neither side is in a stalemate to lose.
Surprisingly your helping our point. You closed the hatch. Now we, who have left that gen that was away from everything, can play the door game. Now we, who may have sole survivor/ wake up will instantly open those doors when given the chance. Or if a key is in play via survivor or box we can do so. Doing a gen in that scenario works in our favor as survivor as you've proven by running to that popped gen.
Their reward is denying an escape route for survivors. You want more of a reward, we ask why? There's 1 survivor left, either the rest have escaped or died, and you've denied one exit they can use.
Thats not the killer giving up, thats them progressing the game 😔[theres no "face palm" emoji…sad days]
If we're talking about abusing strategies, its gonna have to wait in line behind tunneling, which is hard to counter despite being obvious most times. Secondly it does matter as your whole issue is this strategy and they can't do both. Its on you as killer to try and figure out what your prey is doing.
When the hatch spawns between both doors is it in the survivors favor? When the doors are close together or playing the map Midwich, is it in the survivors favor? When its a wide open map like the rotten fields, is it in their favor? Lets ask this, is camping to eek out a kill at end game cheesing a kill? [We'll even give you the answers as to what happens: yes = hypocrisy, no = theres no problem with survivors sitting at gates waiting for their best shot at escaping, Taking pieces of it = an effective answer of "yes"]
We don't give much a damn about base kit bt, go for it. Others are going to complain, and probably with good reasons, but we 3 personally don't care. You should run whatever you think will help you best, for us thats running whatever gimmick build we have and getting better, but everyones different. So we repeat, run No Way Out.
Didn't you just say you weren't against chance just abit ago? Old hatch stand offs, as we've previously said, were removed because people would sit there for long times. This was because killer could grab the survivor out, but couldn't close it, while if the survivor got hit next to it, they escape during the wipe animation. Neither side backed down so the devs added a way for this to not happen via giving the killer a way to end it by closing the hatch. RNG aint a problem here despite you flip-flopping (not the perk) on it.
Ohh its fair. The killer has opportunities to look at the doors before closing the hatch, can use a plethora of perks (and some powers) to track survivors, some have mobility to do multiple things, and the door placement (plus hatch) is still based on RNG.
False, we aint contradicting ourselves. Firstly we were talking about hatch stand offs before moving on to your issues with this strategy. Second the whole quote by us:
This asks why the devs would make it easier for killers when they are the ones trying to make survivors give up. It doesn't specify that it strictly benefits the killers sitting on the hatch, this is a benefit to all killers. So why would the devs help killers more when they are the primary issue in this scenario?
Third, we never denied that they would benefit (as stated, benefits killers across the board), we ask why they would still bother giving survivors a chance when they can continue to sit on the hatch regardless and continue this circus? Many (and we mean like 90+%) of those few who already sit at hatch waiting would very very much be willing to continue to do what they do with or without this idea. It solves practically nothing about any "hatch stand off" while simultaneously making it much harder for survivors needlessly.
They might as well instantly die if they don't open the gate within 30 seconds of hatch closing. That's how slim their chances of escape are.
Which is why you want the exit gate to be blocked. You want Survivors to be guaranteed to die. That's the only reason you're wanting this change.
Depends on where it is and how well you can get to stairs. GoJ cinema map is still worse if the exits spawn at the cinema and the statue. There is no way you can check the cinema exit from afar, so you always have to go around. If you make the wrong decision after you close hatch, the survivor is out.
Your idea would make it a nightmare to get out after hatch has been closed on maps who infamously spawn exits close together (e.g. Azarov's, DnD map, Midwich). On maps like these you basically NEED to stand at the exit and hope the hatch was far away and have the killer check the other gate first. If you don't get it during that time, even using the red light tech, you are not getting out unless you brought Sole Survivor or Wake Up maybe.
So you are in support of making survivors instantly die after 30 seconds of hatch close? I'll open a thread with this suggestion if you are.
No. I'm saying on those maps after the hatch is closed, it is difficult to patrol the gates, so the survivor still has a very good chance of escaping through the gate without abusing the instant door strat. My suggestion doesn't change this.
I still can't believe you think survivors are guaranteed to die when hatch is closed. Do I seriously need to link a clip of a survivor escaping after hatch is closed?
I main Survivor, so I know how difficult it is to escape through the gate after hatch is closed. It only happens perhaps 1 in 20 matches, not counting the ones where the Killer lets them out. You're trying to make it even more difficult than it already is, and I will not support that. I have a clip of me escaping through the exit gate after hatch was closed, but I only escaped because the Killer allowed it.
Of course you'd also suggest Survivors instantly die after closing hatch. That's how sweaty for the 4k you are.
Btw, a consistent argument you make is that "killers shouldn't be guaranteed a free kill when closing hatch". I could easily turn your logic against you. Killers get nothing when they find hatch. Survivors get an escape. Why is it fine for survivors to be "guaranteed a free escape" when they find hatch? The odds of finding hatch is 50/50 for most killers, so why don't killers get the equivalent when they find hatch, which is a kill? It seems you are a hypocrite and only want survivors to get a free escape from hatch. I don't want to hear the excuse about some killers having mobility. Only 15% of killers have high mobility that lets them find hatch easier.
I don't understand how you got that from my post. You are actually coming up with a totally different thing that what I wrote. I'm trying to ease things by not having stand offs.
Survivors aren't guaranteed to find hatch, therefore, it isn't a guaranteed escape. They'd have to be damn lucky to find it. And not only do they have to find it, but they actually have to jump into it. You'd be amazed at how many Survivors will stand on top of it and wait for the Killer to come to them. Oftentimes that will lead to their demise.
Of course, if you're standing on top of the hatch when the Survivor finds it, you close it and guarantee your kill.
I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong comment when I made that post. I meant to quote the post from adsads123123123123. Sorry for the confusion.
I mean, sure, if every killer turns into a 115 M1-only killer after hatch is closed and gates are a certain distance from each other and there isn't any point on a map where a killer can have FOV of both gates - sure. We can block them for 15 seconds after hatch is closed. - Make it an even playing field; make it a big mind game. Might actually be fun.
first of all the guy on the vid got stuck on onjects several times.
second you didn't show if survivor had gate opening perks.
Third i rarely get out with hatch standoffs. Especially because killer usually guesses gate right.
No problem I read my comment about 5 times trying to figure it out 😆
It's not hypocritical, that's just the difference between Killer and Survivor role. It is not the same for Killer. You say the Killer and Survivor only have a 50/50 chance of finding hatch first, so explain to me why the Killer finds it first 90% of the time. You and OP are whining that Survivors get a free escape when they find hatch while Killers have to seek out the Survivor when they close hatch. However, when Survivors find hatch, they should escape, because there is literally nothing else to do at that point.
And a side note, all these personal attacks are not convincing anyone as to why exit gates should be blocked after closing hatch.
Will No Way Out solve the problem?
They aren't wrong though is the thing. Survivors have to find the hatch against a faster killer while simultaneously either staying hidden (outta sight, leaving as few marks as possible) or while being chased by the killer if found (dodging and looping to not go down and smart killers will corral them to spots they checked before making it harder). Killers don't have these problems and can also deny the hatch which then leaves it to doors. That's not counting the number of tracking perks killers have while survivors have 2 for hatch and 2 for doors. You can't use clean numbers as it simply won't work.
We would question what you'd have in mind if you have survivors something else to do. Say the hatch spawns closed and a key spawns somewhere. If the killer doesn't know where it is then the killer has to look around for the key while simultaneously checking doors. If they do see it then they gotta guard 3 places. We can keep going for a bit. The alternative equivalent for the killer would be to immediately end the match when killer closes hatch. We're not opposed to this, but just saying.
shrug to each their own but gonna say, its alot harder to not die looking for hatch when the killers chasing you
Nah dude wasted like 4 seconds getting stuck on objects. He could have easily killed them… Say it with me: the killer doesn't not need to guarantee a 4k in every scenario
See thats a more realistic depiction, though still has flaws. First thats not the most optimal situation as the hatch spawn is RNG. Its just as likely to spawn closer and between the doors. Wraith got hatch far away from the doors, which is more favored to the survivor in this instance. Second while this is a more accurate depiction if they simply walked, many killers have ways to check/guard gates beyond looking and then theres mobility ones. Trapper and Hag can pre-trap gates, Artist can send birds, Doc's blast easily checks the area, you get the gist. Third we're going to need specifics as you can look around while moving towards the gates, meaning you can potentially spot survivors from far off (map depending ofcourse).
Fourth:
And that gives the last survivor a chance to escape. It depends on RNG factors in these scenarios, a guessing game. Think about it like this, you see those doors in that clip? They're not that far apart. It took 15~ seconds to get within clear sight from almost across the map (wraith choosing the furthest door first is also another problem but its minimal) If OPs idea is implemented, the killer gets to the doors and could easily patrol those as an m1 well enough that escape is nigh impossible without the gate perks or unless the killer screws up.
Fifth, this maybe rude to ask so we'll apologize if its false, but are you just an alt account of the OP? You type very similar.
Can tear many holes in that argument if you want, but it seems easy to us.
Oh, how horrible. A killer cant get a guaranteed 4 kills after closing hatch. Once hatch is closed survivors escaping from gate are rarely lucky enough to actually make it unless they have a perk like sole survivor or instantly waited at the exit gate. You got 3 kills, you already won. That escape was scrapes salvaged from a game you fully dominated.
If you knew he was camping the gate, you shouldnt have been so eager to just close hatch. You simply didnt have the guts to risk leaving the hatch open so you could first clear the gates. Most rng will make it almost impossible 4 the killer to not make it to the gate first.
you are ignoring how far away hatch has to be from gate for whats on the vid to happen. You are also ignoring on several maps this wont happen because gates are near each other. It's a literal map diff situation.
Fair enough.
You specifically said:
Your words specify the whole situation is optimal with zero time wasted (and called it unrealistic at that, but thats us nit picking) so you can't blame us for pointing these flaws out.
The ones that can't do anything at all about guarding gates are: Bubba, PH, GF, Meyers, Freddy, Pig, Nemesis, Chucky, and debatably Vecna. Everyone else has either some way to move, guard, or check gates. And yes, thats on the killer to make time to pre-setup at gates, as trapper I usually do near the start or when passing by so its not rocket science. You neglect to mention the times where theres ample opportunity to do this.
As doc it saves us from checking around a gate (or the survivor outsmarts us) and as Artist we don't fire towards the door we're going to, we shoot at the opposite. Firing at the door we're walking to would be stupid. All that aside, fair enough for those 2.
That one we did misread so apologies. The main point was you can move and look around (aka patrol while looking) since you only need to guard the power switch during end game, you don't need to deep investigate and map RNG decides how easy this is. For 2 extreme examples from both sides, think Midwich and Lerys. Midwich has super close doors that you can easily check the gates, lery's you more or less have to go out to make sure.
Cause the roles aren't equal in an asymmetrical game? Killer is the harder role as they're on their own. Survivors meanwhile have to rely on each other or theres at best only going to be 1 escape. With how often hook swings and tunneling have been survivors often lose 1/4th of their ability to contest the killer quickly and often. The hatch gives survivors a motivation to keep playing after something like that happens.
Well, we could point out simple facts like what we said before~
Also yes, we got pinged 4 times…not entirely sure how that bug worked…
Do you really need us to list how ranged killers can injure people from far away stopping progress on that door or how Nurse goes in straight lines ignoring all obstacles so hatch location is less affecting to her and so on? If your REALLY insistent on it, we will but if you stop to think about it, theres many variables in play (it will be a pain in the butt for us so please think on it).
Streamers are not us (getting sheeple vibes here). If they don't want to pre-set up early then they have less time later and maybe run into that problem. Its called "insurance" to us cause we're preparing for an outcome that might happen. Not everyone needs it, not everyone does it, but that doesn't mean that people don't do it or that its always a bad idea.
We have previously said that the equivalent would be to immediately end the game once hatch closed if you remember. If you really want some sort of convoluted "second chance" what would it be? And no, the OP idea does not fall under "second chance". It falls under "more advantage" before you ask.
So what your saying is that the game should immediately end once the killer closes hatch as above. Thats what we hear and thats fine, we're going to play devils advocate though by pointing killers do have the advantage when it comes to finding hatch.
[The problem with the past is that it lead to true hatch stand offs. One side couldn't do anything without the other winning (survivors could take a hit from the killer and escape, the survivor could be grabbed out the hatch and get killed if not hit). Current hatch mechanics keep the game going instead of grinding to a halt…provided the last players don't sit with their thumbs up their arse.]
The only time a killer has no hope of getting a 1k is when they're severely outclassed by the survivors. We wouldn't know where to begin while also it not being pure BS to survivors. Survivors currently can only sit at the gates till the timer is up or they die (though admittedly we would also like something specifically for these types of players). We asked this above and will ask again: If you really want some sort of convoluted "second chance" what would it be?