The facecamping changes were needed... However...
So what is the killer supposed to do now? How do they gain pressure? By getting downs? Yea right, usually 2-3 gens pop by your first down anyways. EVEN if you manage to get a down before 2-3 gens pop, the remaining 3 survivors not on hooks (unless someone DC'd for some reason) will usually pop said gens shortly after hooking the survivor you managed to catch.
Camping someone secured pressure, that is why killers started to do it more and more ESPECIALLY after the stall nerfs. You think it is fun to camp survivors to death? No, it is not; it is boring. I want to go out and chase, but I also want to have a chance at winning the match and potentially getting 2-4 kills.
At the highest level of play, this is the smartest strategy to do, regardless of if it is fun for anyone. Killers do not have enough time to go for 12 hook games against survivors that want to actually do their main objective efficiently. Chase time has never been the issue for good killers, it is the game length that is the issue. The earlier you eliminate a survivor from the match, the more the match slows down for the killer to chase and get downs. It isn't rocket science; then again, no one said it was.
Lets look at this mathematically. You find the first survivor at the start of the match. You are a 115 M1 killer. This means that if said survivor starts running away as soon as they hear the TR, regardless of if they even have an exhaustion perk or use pallets/windows, it will take you upwards of 30-40 seconds or more to catch up and get one hit. The killer after hitting them needs to wipe their weapon, the survivor gains the short burst of speed, and now its another 20-30 seconds for that second hit. Add another 6 to 10 seconds to hook them, and you got a minimum of 56 seconds for one down.
With how little time remaining before gens start popping, this means the killer needs to find another survivor within 34 seconds or 3 gens pop (if you do find another in this time, congrats; now only 2 gens of the 5 needed will pop, with one other gen nearly completed). THIS IS ALL ASSUMING YOU FIND SOMEONE AS SOON AS THE MATCH STARTS. You start adding the fact that survivors will utilize pallets and windows after just running away for the maximum amount of time they can, and now it could take even longer to get a down.
I get it because I play survivor as well. I hate getting camped and tunneled, but I also know what it is like on the other side of the coin. There needs to be some way for the killer to get pressure and actually be encouraged, not forced, to leave the hook and go out to hunt other survivors.
Comments
No way you call what I said personal attacks and then call me a survivor main LOLL (btw I play both sides shouldn't even need to clarify....)
How will it work no matter what?? If anything it nerfs this playstyle since the other Survivors can now sit on gens while youre busy at the hook.
What I am describing is the way survivors currently play efficiently. If you leave the chase with the survivor who is literally just running away in a straight line to buy time for other survivors... What happens if you swap targets? Oh yeah, they do the same thing as the guy you were just chasing, and the guy you were just chasing goes back to repairing the gens. Most survivors in this game don't even heal anymore, just because there is no need to before all the gens pop.
Tunneling is fine.
I have to agree with almost everything you're saying except Billy. Sorry but he's trash on most of the maps.
-"But at the same time being able to play with your friends is what keeps survivor fun and I don't think we will ever get a change to SWF comms so that is something to get used to"
The problem with SWF is that you get "extras" at no cost. This is why literally every Moba limits how many people you can bring into a game unless it's teams on teams. SWF essentially gives you extra perks - so why doesn't the killer get extra perks when they play against SWF?
If that's too much then limit the perks/items/offerings/characters so that no one can repeat any of those things. That's a bare minimum request to keep the game fair for killer.
-"Bonus mention: Pallet hitboxes have felt extra generous lately. You won't even be standing in it yet it still manages to stun you"
They physically made pallets larger when they did the graphic rework. This made pallet stuns more generous since the hitbox got bigger.
-"I'm all for a window of protection to make things more enjoyable, but I wish BHVR would consider it also isn't fun to have all gens done in a few minutes."
I've said this multiple times; it makes no sense for balance that the survivors get tunnel protection but the killer doesn't. The survivor time to win is 3-4 minutes for an efficient team and the killer time to win is 6-8 minutes.
Why didn't killer get Deadlock Base kit? Gen rushing has been an issue for 6 years. We never seemed to get that "second objective" to slow down the game.
Why didn't gen rush perks get a 70% nerf when Gen regression got a 70% nerf? Why didn't toolboxes become sabotage only?
Thats also just assuming the map is just a straight line and that EVERY single place they are allows them to do so
? Tunneling is not fine
It is very much fine. You make it impossible or significantly harder to tunnel and every m1 killer suffers to the point where if they do get buffed its just as annoying to face them as compared to them tunneling. Or you know just them not having enough pressure. At the current state of the game tunneling is fine as is because maps are so huge or are just loaded with pallets that you can just comp drop and win even though you dont preserve resources.
If I die having being chased and caught I'm fine with it. If I die on first hook having been camped with 4-5 gens up I've wasted my time. The nerfs to tunneling and camping are a long time in coming and rightly deserved, brought on by an unintended playstyle that rewarded a killer for not playing the game with sportsmanship.
And before 'camping is a legit strat' yes it was, so was jumping in a locker with a friend and flashlighting a killer over and over again so they can't get the grab while the other two survivors do gens. It works, but was it fair to the other player? Was it what the devs intended? No.
Killers are meant to chase, find, hunt, hook and use their powers. This is what they are rewarded for, not standing next to the hook. In fact they lost points for hook camping but the loss was so minuscule no one cared.
Sure it generates pressure. Who wouldn't get pressure from guarding someone from playing the game? But maybe now people playing killer will get better in other areas of chase and pressure instead of learning absolutely nothing standing at the hook.
On the bright side (for killers) Now that camping has been addressed and will no longer boost killerates as much (returning to the unhook is still very much alive) the devs may take a look at chase and gen stopping elements, including map balance to help make the game more fair.
Also, I'm sure camping slugs will take off now, as people will always find a way to stand around doing nothing.
Obv tunneling is fine in the current state of the game but the current state of the game itself isn't fine
Killers are always saying that the game is a 1v4, but this apparently does not apply when it comes to them camping a Survivor. Because if that gets weaker, there are suddenly no other Survivors anymore.
As someone who still plays Billy and consistently kills with him I have to disagree with him being trash. His chainsaw autolock is one of the strongest in the game, almost ensuring you are getting a down when people are moving between pallets. People pre-drop pallets to avoid being hit by the chainsaw, and the map traversal alone makes him insane. Sure, he is nowhere near as great as he was, but he definitely isn't trash. Now that gen regression is gone and gens get done at insane speeds, not wasting time running from one side of map to the other is a game changer
Maybe kill rates are as high as they are because of all the campers?
Maybe with anti-camping mechanisms, kill rates will go down?
Maybe if kill rates go down, killers will receive buffs?
If all this is true, then it means camping was artificially nerfing killers by way of being a crutch and inflating kill rates.
If it's not true, then buffs aren't required.
So there's nothing to whine about here, in regards to compensatory killer buffs, either they're necessary, or they're not, and if they are, then it's bringing the issue to light and is the reason why killers would be getting the nerfs they need.
if you are losing 3 gens on first chase, its on you.....it doesnt happen as much as you are proposing
That's what we hope for. Though, they'll have their work cut out for them. Another 6.1.0 is not going to be sufficient. They'll need to actually deal with killer specific issues and that will take a looot of time.
Camping, tunneling and slugging, while definitely too versatile in their current states should not be completely removed / punished. They are ways to punish survivors for mistakes and preventing that ultimately makes the game pretty brain dead for survivors outside of loops, which means everything outside the chase becomes a slog.
From my killer exp, i don't think killers needs another general buffs. Some killers should get buffs (Trapper, Sadako, Myers etc.) but general buffs? No.
My killer issues are usually toolboxes, unbalanced survivor-sided maps and gen progression perks. They need to look at them for sure. Balanced maps probably will fix most of killer issues.
I guess it depends on how quickly survivors can unhook themselves. If I'm "busy at the hook" for under a minute until the bar fills up, and nobody's running Kindred and/or it isn't an SWF on coms, which means one ore more are at least going to get off gens to check and waste time, especially if they assume faceamping is dead and that they'll get a rescue for sure, then that's a survivor dead in ~3 minutes.
The other survivors had better have been very productive in the meantime, or they're dead, too.
EDIT: And you just know that, every other game, two people are going to throw themselves at the hook and/or try and fail to bodyblock once said survivor has unhooked themselves.
This will also turn Reassurance into a griefing perk.
Unhealthy is a point of view.
Ever limiting the choice of a player only makes the game more stale.
At this rate, sooner or later, they'll kill it.
I am sure game will be okey without camping.
FaceCamping is being dealt with...
But quick saves are still in the game... that would be the reason I Camp
I'm sorry, but logic is so absurd and makes absolutely 0 sense.
Explain how or concede the point.
I'm asking a question here. What's to keep me from facecamping a hook until the timer fills up, pretending to leave for five seconds, and then tunneling them right back onto the hook with STBFL, killing them as fast as or faster than if someone had come for the unhook?
If you don't have an answer, I can accept that, but if you have some insight into this I don't, please do elaborate.
I mean it just seems like reverse logic no???
If the Survivors wouldnt have gone for the save, that Survivor would have died in 2 minutes. If they did, chances are the best outcome would of been a trade
Now if the Survivors dont go for the save, the Survivor on hook can just free themselves while the other 3 are free to do gens. Sure you may get 1 or 2 more STBFL stacks, but do you really value that more than an entire kill?
Youre also making it sound like the moment the Survivor free's themselves that theyre just going to stand there and let themselves die.
So I may not have an answer no, but thats because this logic of yours just doesnt make any sense whatsoever. This is the best I could make of it.
Idk, but hook defense is put the window now
You are missing the point.
I have no problems with gens taking longer (base - not through perks - maybe for m1 or lower tier killer) if they remove the face camp and tunnelling mechanic (except for at egc)
No, the point of facecamping STBFL isn't "getting more stacks", it's getting the kill. No, they're not just going to stand there and die; that's the entire point of running the perk. Alternatively, you could just count to ten, but tunneling through basekit BT is the way I do it.
If it takes two minutes for a survivor to die if nobody comes for the save, then I'm assuming the rate at which a survivor is able to unhook themselves is significantly faster than that to make it worth it.
Assuming you can chew through their Endurance and down them fairly quickly (run Agitation to hook them in a pallet deadzone and Bamboozle the nearest window before they self-unhook), you can probably get that same kill in two minutes or less, and even in some strange alternate universe where the three other people were all on different gens at the same time, it's now a 3v1 with two gens left, and you have Bamboozle and a fully stacked STBFL.
This is all contingent on how quickly the survivor can unhook themselves after being facecamped, but I think it sounds like "reverse logic" to hand to me the exact thing I was already doing by proxy camping, except faster, and then call it a nerf to facecamping.
If survivors can unhook themselves quickly, I'm going to get a lot out of facecamping from now on. I no longer have to wait for someone else to come for the save; it happens on its own and faster than it did before.
I still don't understand how having 3 Survivors have the option to remain on gens while you now need to take more time to kill a single Survivor by face camping because you have STBFL and Bam is a positive for this playstyle. But if you think so, then you do you king
I would assume the self-unhook is elective, so the hooked survivor can wait until the last second of their hook stage and then hop off, causing the mini-chase to add to his time.
-"As someone who still plays Billy and consistently kills with him I have to disagree with him being trash"
Can you compete with him and be on par with very good Blights? No you can't.
-"His chainsaw autolock is one of the strongest in the game, almost ensuring you are getting a down when people are moving between pallets. "
I'm guessing you don't know that it doesn't work on a downward slope. Ever have someone crouch at the shack pallet and you can't connect with them?
-"People pre-drop pallets to avoid being hit by the chainsaw, and the map traversal alone makes him insane."
"Sure, he is nowhere near as great as he was, but he definitely isn't trash. "
I dont think you really understand how he used to be able to traverse maps. Lerry's didnt exist and you could go from point A to point B with maybe only the occasional obstacle from a single direction.
Just watch a very strong Blight and you'll feel like youre playing a doctor by comparison.
he can still traverse maps better any other killer in the game. his mobility still exceed blight because it has no real internal cooldown. From point A to point B, Its straight up the best mobility in the game. the big nerf to billy are his chase potencial because of removal of charge-time add-ons. they reduced his chase potencial to basic m1 killer gameplay vs competent survivors. Only time will tell if billy ever get buffed properly but given that fact that they wanted to nerf doom engraving and yellow engraving in the PTB. Likely no real buffs will show up. Till then I'll just be playing chase bubba in memory of billy.
I would say the problem with Billy is the lack of consistency. Most maps are cluttered with debris that makes his ability to get from point A to B take a longer amount of time, even without a cooldown on the ability. His ability is outdated compared to the newer mobility-based abilities brought on by newer killers.
Either way, this is kind of "off-topic" compared to the core of the discussion.
-"he can still traverse maps better any other killer in the game."
Did you forget Nurse? Even when Billy was considered an S killer most people considered Nurse to be S+.
-"From point A to point B, Its straight up the best mobility in the game."
You missed the forest for the trees in that they designed maps that would grossly interfere with his chainsaw sprint. It was a way to nerf Billy without adjusting his kit.
-"they reduced his chase potencial to basic m1 killer gameplay vs competent survivors."
And that's the core problem that has always been an issue even when he had much stronger addons and fewer limits.
Mate I've been playing since release. Please don't assume I don't know how far he has fallen. I know it is more difficult to cross map now, I know about all the tricks to avoid the chainsaw, and I still place him with top tier killers. Lery's has always been an issue for Billy. Certain maps just aren't good for certain killers, but that doesn't mean you can't adapt to work around it. Billy's overheat now prevents him from just doing infinite circles around the map, that much is true. But anybody who can steer can still easily get from point A to point B with minimal obstacles. As far as Blight goes, I'd say it is much easier to compete against a Blight than it is Billy. For the most part all the counterplay is the same, except I'd argue it is easier to avoid blight given he has to hit something first and you can map a route to avoid him.
I could watch a very strong Blight just like I could watch a very strong Nurse on PC. Most people aren't in that small percentile where they will show up the whole community with their skills. I've played many Blights that were decently experience and had no problem getting away. Meanwhile when I play a Billy with the same level of experience, people are dropping left and right.
If the three other people were all perpetually on separate gens for two minutes straight, I wasn't running Deadlock, and the survivor times the self-unhook properly, maybe.
In reality, Meg was looting a chest, David was crouching in the grass ten meters away waiting for me to go away so he can get his daily, and Claudette gets off her gen as soon as she realizes I was tunneling and tries to bodyblock me.
Hence why I said that I could just pretend to go away for five seconds. If they fall for it just once, that makes up all the other time you might waste chasing them around the hook.
Did this make it into the PTB?
Which would of just ended up with the Survivor on hook dead anyway???
The only difference here is at least the Survivor has the chance to initiate chase once again which in most cases if the Survivor has half a brain can waste more time than if they were just to sit on the hook
Good thing survivors don't have half a brain in most cases, then. In public matches, the numbers are on my side.
If you want to get kills AND chase, you can equip rancor + game afoot
When using these as well as remember me + no way out, most games I can get 2k or more and almost never fail to get at least 1 since you can just have the obsession slugged so that you can trigger the mori as soon as the last gen pops
Something people aren't considering is you can get the survivor out of their 1st hook state faster possibly and tunnel them out quicker if the bar fills up super quick. much like BT this mechanic will be possibly abusable but in the killers favour if the surv doesnt have anti tunnel perks.