Adressing the issues of Survivors
I really feel the need to make a thread about this. As a killer main myself, I am absolutely baffled by some of the killer mains on the forum right now. Pretending that killer mains are still the victims of the devs even after all the buffs killers have received. The game's balancing is definitely not perfect, but it's in a pretty good spot right now in my opinion. And I by the love of god do not understand how people on this forum can whine about gen rush like crazy, yet defend camping like their life depends on it.
Anyway this thread is to give my opinion on what fundamental design flaws of this game need to be worked on. Now I know killer mains don't like to hear it, but from a design point, camping is a real problem. It rewards killers often for little to no skill, and ruins the experience for the survivor being camped. It's quite clear for me: A game in which one of the most effective strategies for one side is the most frustrating strategy for the opposing side to deal with has a serious, fundamental design flaw.
Now before I talk about camping, I do believe that one of the other high priorities for the devs right now is to close the gap between solo and swf survivors as much as possible. Adding kindred and perhaps Bond won't close the gap entirely, but it will grant solo survivors the biggest advantages swf survivors have and would be such a huge improvement for solo survivor.
At the same time, the gap between killers needs to be closed. The power difference between Freddy and Nurse is insane.
I might make a seperate thread about that as well, but for now I'll stop here and move on to the biggest problem of the game, camping.
Camping takes little skill, yet is pretty effective, at least against a team of solo survivors, since everyone needs to tell on their own if a killer is camping or not, and once they realise that, it's already to late to gen rush the killer. No matter what some people want you to believe. In fact, countering camping is one of the biggest advantages swf survivors have over solo survivors.
Please note that I'm not saying camping is overpowered, nor am I blaming killers for camping. It's sadly a viable strategy right now, killers are allowed to use it. Same with DS and NOED, I hate those two perks, but don't get mad at the people who use it.
So in the following I'll suggest certain changes that could help reduce camping a lot. And yes, I've seen people say camping shouldn't be punished, but instead there should be an incentive for killers to not camp. I agree with having an incentive not to camp, but that won't make camping any less effective, especially against solo survivors. Camping needs a nerf, it's simple.
The first change is a must in anyway for me. It honestly fits in with adding kindred Tier 3 into the survivors base kit. Showing the aura of the killer when near a hook. But with a larger radius.
The killers aura should be shown when within a 18 meter radius of the hook. Over time, this radius grows to a total of 26 meters after 50 seconds. This way, solo survivors have the same chance as swf survivors to tell if a killer is camping or not. The only restriction here to me is that survivors need to be 28 meters or further away from the hook to see the killers aura, and can not be in a chase, otherwise they could use the aura of killers to avoid mindgames.
I would love to see more changes added though. First one is a clear nerf to camping, and the second would be a nice little nerf to gen rush that encourages not to camp and tunnel.
Nerfing camping can happen in two ways. The first, and far easier way to do this is increase the Bleed Out Timer yet again. I'd say both hook phases should take 15 or 20 seconds longer, so a survivor can survive 30 or 40 seconds longer on a hook.
The second way would be to look at how the chaser emblem discourages camping and use it on the Bleed Out timer as well. So whether a killer is within a 26 meter range of the hooked survivor, the Bleed Out Speed of the hooked survivor is decreased by 50%. This does not apply if a survivor is also within that 26 meter radius, if the killer is in a chase or once the exit gates have been powered. Also this should only apply after the survivor has been hooked for 15 seconds.
However, this camping nerf should not happen without a small buff to killers elsewhere. At least the weaker killers will need some compensation, since they struggle now already.
One idea I've read multiple times was to have survivors that just got unhooked suffer from a repair speed penalty for a certain time, which I think would be great. Personally, I would suggest that a survivor gets a 20% decreased repair speed and an 8% decreased healing speed for 90 seconds after being unhooked (that do not stack!). This way killers will also have more reason to go for the unhooker instead of the person who got unhooked. Once one survivor is dead these numbers should be cut in half. 10% decreased repair speed and 4% decreased healing speed.
At the same time, I would love to see survivors gain a 20% increased repair and 15% increased healing speed for every dead or disconnected survivor, to further balance tunneling, since right now the game's balancing shifts extremely once one survivors is removed from the trial.
The only fear I have is that top tier killers might become too good with this change. A nerf to camping is simply a nerf to a certain killer strategy, while the decreased repairing speed of unhooked survivors is a general nerf to gen rush. I could see Nurse becoming even more overpowered than she is now.
Please note that I'm not saying gen rush would be completely solved, gens can still be repaired very fast, there's no doubt, but before there is any more significant gen rush nerf, other parts of the game have to be adressed first.
Personally I feel like these changes would improve the experience of the game a lot. Less camping, and even a small way of helping with the effectivity of gen rush. I think it's important to address camping and tunneling now. It's definitely what makes survivor often a frustrating experience, and with less of camping and tunneling, this game will be in such a better state. I beg of changes like these to happen. Yes, camping isn't overpowered, but it's just no fun. And playing a game is supposed to be fun, for both sides. If you're wondering why lobby times have been longer for killers only, well this might be one of the reasons. Why play survivor if you get camped often?
For anyone interested in the concrete numbers of the gen rush and tunneling nerfs, here they are:
20% Repair Speed decrease: 80s/0.8 = 100s.
8% Healing Speed decrease: 16s/0.92 = 17.39s
20% increased Repair Speed: 80s/1.2 = 66.6s
40% increased Repair Speed: 80s/1.4 = 57.14s
60% increased repair Speed: 80s/1.6 = 50s
15% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.15 = 13.91s 32s/1.15 = 27.83
30% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.3 = 12.31s 32s/1.3 = 24.62
45% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.45 = 11.03s 32s/1.45 = 22.07s
10% Repair Speed decrease: 66.6s/0.9 = 74s (cause repair time is only 66.6 seconds once one survivor is dead)
4% Healing Speed decrease: 13.91s/0.96 = 14.49s (cause healing speed is reduced to 13.91 seconds once one survivor is dead)
Please also note that these number are just spontaneous suggestions, ideas for how I believe the game could be balanced optimally.
Oh and Insidious and Dying Light need a rework. Such awful perks.
Comments
What do you understand? That they rather get bored and camp a survivor just to secure a kill because they are bad? In this case i totally agree.
I'm guessing that's a reply to my last post? Anyway it just sounded like you were referencing me because that was exactly what you accused me of. Forcing my rules onto others.
I know I'm just a player? Not sure what that means? I just doubt that being camped on a hook is fun to anyone. All I wanted is to suggest ways to improve the experience for survivors by making camping less effective. I mean in the end, every developer team should try and improve their game to make it more enjoyable for as many people as possible. And camping is the most common complaint regarding this game, I feel. So it would be only logical to try and improve the game in that area.
I enjoy this game a lot, but I feel like there are still improvements that can be made to the game. For both sides.
A killed survivor can enter a new game instantly. I don't see an issue here. But survivors take it strangely personal if they get killed. Doesn't matter if they die at the start of the match or right in front of the opened gates. They are equally mad.
That's the problem. I mean who knows if they are getting bored or if they enjoy camping. But why reward bad players with such an easy kill? That's not how online games should work honestly. Especially when considering that it ruins the fun for the survivor being camped.
Survivor failed to avoid the killer. Failed to lose the killer = deserves a free unhook, because he's clearly more skilled.
Any decent killer can catch a good survivor sooner or later, it's not all about skills.
Yeah pretty sure the complaint with BBQ was that it made stealth more problematic, especially on Hillbilly, not that it made killers not camp. But BBQ is fine, no need to nerf it, and the locker change wasn't really a big nerf.
Being tunneled or camped from the get go, and then having to search for a new game isn't very fun though. Especially when it happens multiple times in a row.
I'm not talking about those survivors. There's a clear difference between dying because of getting camped and tunneled and dying to a fair killer. One game was still enjoyable, the other not. If people get mad just because they lost in general, that's their problem, and I'm definitely taking distance from those people. But every game has those types of people. Who just can't lose.
Chasing down one killer and finally hooking him is far easier than avoiding the killer and losing him in a chase. Just because he got downed once shouldn't be a reason to not get unhooked and to have the game end already. It's just no fun.
I mean sure stealthing isn't that hard, but at some point a killer will find a survivor, it's inevitable. Then he gets chased and eventually downed. And than that's it? That doesn't seem fair.
I'm sorry but one survivor isn't on the same power level as the killer, those times are no more.
Who is stealthy? A ninja who's next to someone else, who doesn't notice that he's there or the rice farmer who's far away?
Survivors shouldn't be able to 1v1 the killer. But they still can. Nothing changed in that regard.
Tsulan the Wise.
Well you've got a point, but I'm guessing the main complaints came from Nurse and Hillybilly. Cause they can easily reach you within 4 seconds. Still, I agree BBQ didn't need a nerf, but I also believe that the locker buff didn't hurt that perk too much.
They can't. The chances of losing an equally skilled killer are much lower than him downing you. They may have used to 1v1 good killers, but that's not anymore. Just maybe the weaker killers, like Freddy.
s/
That's not what I mean when I say camping. As you'll see in the changes I suggest.
The issue isn't camping, it is WHY killers camp. Usually they end up camping because gens are done in 5 seconds. What really needs to be fixed are gens need to take longer to complete or there needs to be another objective for survivors to complete to lengthen matches, and some maps need to be more balanced. If people still camp when the games last longer than 3 minutes then they're just being toxic and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'm not sure about all these changes because personally they sound like a huge survivor buff to me, like being able to see the killer's aura within a certain distance of the hook, unless you meant they can't see the killer if the killer is in a chase near the hook? Or if there is an unhooked survivor in a certain distance or something like that. Then maybe it would make sense. If the killer is just standing near the hook that's one thing, but if they're chasing survivors around it or searching for one they saw and another survivor is across the map, they shouldn't see the killer. It would be nice if there was some repair speed penalty but honeslty I think just making gens take longer in general and/or adding a second objective would have to happen in conjunction with something like this.
People know there is no point of going for the save if the killer is camping. Instead, they gen rush to get the gate open quickly. Yes, the penalty is in for repair speed but gen still getting done.
In this scenario, killer will have no point to camp and will have to walk away from the hook. From what you say on the surface, it really doesn't sound like you want people to play by your rule. On second thought, if this get put into the game, it will make camping non-existent and you essentially making people play by your rule because you think camping take no skill (which I agree).
Personally, I hate camping and tunnelling, so I don't do it when I play killer. But, I would like the option of camping to be given to killer.
I guess I'm not too surprised by these type of posts. Probably because I just assume they have the mindset that's similar to an sjw/npc, and then I move on.
Some people could also be replying based on their emotions instead of using logic, but not everyone goes back and edits their posts.
There are tons of stealth perks, which no one uses. Since everyone runs perks to prolong the chase.
Stealth just got buffed a few times in the past. But most people still don't play stealthy.
But the point was this "The chances of losing an equally skilled killer are much lower than him downing you".
"There are tons of stealth perks, which no one uses" I see more iron will/urban evasion users than DS ones, so saying "no one uses" it's simply a lie.
There are also perks which encourage and reward leaving the hook but some people rather camp, even when they are running those perks.
That damn camper!
-.-
Yeah, you are purposely ignoring the new game mechanics to have an excuse to camp and you know it. It's not like they could be hidden in a locker, no!
Another mention to the successful camping killers out there. I try to face camp someone who got my nerves and it was harder than it seems. Killer has so many limitations against and organized survivors. They swift in and took the hooked one, I could just wave after them.
To sum up I think not camping not gen rushing not tunneling, one of the biggest gaps is ranking. There are so many different skill range and so little rankings for separating them. And pipping system is kind of off. It has good base points but with an evolving game, not enough right now.
Duh logic
Why check the gens, right?
Anyone who needs to rely on bbq to do well is simply bad. As a killer you already know where to check.
Also let me add this: you complained before about survivors not playing stealthy or running stealth perks (which is completely false).
Let's use this example:
So the killer hooks someone and the others survivors use lockers to hide their aura.
Tsulan: "why are you hidding your auras!?!"
Duh logic
Totally! Especially since I said that BBQ helps survivors. It reduces camping. Bad survivors require that the killer is on the other end of the map, before they unhook.
Good survivors can go in for the unhook, even if the killer is there.
At least that's what I do. But I also use BT, We'll make it, WGLF and Iron Will.
"BBQ helps survivors" Yeah, that's why many killer mains got so upset after the locker changes lol.
"Good survivors can go in for the unhook, even if the killer is there." unless the gates are open that would be a pretty stupid move.
Seriously, at this point i'm not sure if you are trolling or simply lost. You guys have said for long how stupid is to rescue someone in front of the killer or hookswarming (which i completely agree) and now you say that's what good survivors do?
HORRIBLE LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED.
3k hour people shouldn't be facing noobs just for easier games so they can brag about stomping said noobs. If you want to use that 3k hour example then they should only be playing against people with similar playtime.
Duh
You compare someone who knows what he's doing and what risk he's running, with someone who doesn't and who goes in unprepared.
Solid logic!
Duh
I was counting on BT already. Someone who knows what to do wouldn't rescue a camped survivor when there are gens yet to be done. One of them will get hooked, so it's way better to keep working on gens till killer decides to leave or gens are done, period.
EVEN WORSE HORRIBLE LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED.
I can't believe you did that 2x in a row and you just proved my points yet again about how biased you are. soi much so that you're going out of your way to post completely nonsensical stuff now in order to make yourself look good.
Call me, once it's something productive.
Only what you write.
I'm prepared to risk getting hooked, just to save my teammates. Most don't feel the same. But I'm not entitled to survive. I take my WGLF stacks and am happy with it.
Welp, you said you use BT right before my reply, thought that was assumed.
You are free to risk getting hooked to save another one, but doing it while killer is camping means that only 2 survivors will be working on gens for some time instead of 3 (assuming you are lucky and killer doesn't catch both of you).
I do love to be helpful to my teammates too, i rather die and save the other survivors even if that means i'll die, but not giving 4K to the killer is my main priority. It's always about playing smart.
It ruins games because you can be very unlucky and it can occur several times in a row. Than you can't move to the next game.
Unfortunately the rank system has not been designed for that.
True but it's what we have to deal with for the moment until they come up with something better but here's what would need to happen to prevent that.
You'd have to match up those 4k hour players with players of the same general playtime although playtime doesn't always equal skill. Now if you lock people into say 500 hour or w/e hidden $ the devs would use you run into a huge problem of lobby times.
Because you might have a strata of 4k hour players that's limited to perhaps a few hundred as an example worldwide spread out. Those people are going to have really long lobby times similar to how League's high tiers have longer wait times due to the limited player pool.
Now if you add in actual skill together with time played you'd have a much wider pool of players that'd have more equal chances playing against each other. That's compared to now where say Marth runs into say a 200 hour player lobby and they get defenestrated.
It's a shame you're getting so many immature meme responses. Are some people so dumb they can only use pictures to communicate? How do they express themselves IRL? It's so annoying.
You are right that Camping and Tunneling is the worst experience a Survivor can have. You aren't playing the game. You're AFK on hook, then mashing space (so tedious) then dead. Nevermind that solo survivor teams are adversely affected by this strat, it's bad enough that one person have such a horrible experience playing a game.
You are also right in saying that the way the game is set up right now basically encourages camping/tunneling. You want to focus a Survivor to reduce their numbers advantage ASAP. If it's not a SWF, camping ensures a killer and wastes everyone's time. And I'll mention it again, the person on the hook is having 0 fun and is probably considering uninstalling.
Kindred being made baseline is a good start. That change where Hooked Survivors are less effective repairing is even better. I hope the devs consider this! Hooks are the worst thing about this game!
Its called trading.
Killer camp the first guy he downed, other survivors do gens until the guy on hook is about to die, then someone goes in and saves him with BT, the guy who goes in for the save, makes sure that the killer hits him twice after or while he saving the guy on hook, this way, they guy that was unhooked has time to run away, killer then has to choose between hooking the guy that he just downed, or go looking for the unhooked guy, if he hooks the guy he can camp again, but the hook bar is full, so all gens will be done by the time the new guy on hook is about to die.
You are right that 1 of them will be hooked, but you can always trade and force the killer to hook someone that is not about to die, this way you can keep the game as a 4 vs 1... So its not always better to work on gens at all times, you need to know when to leave the gen and do other stuff.
Yeah i know what trading is, but killer can be stubborn and tunnel hard the recent unhooked survivor. Any killer with some brain will know what's going on.
It's a risky tactic which i'm not sure if it would work against true rank 1 killers.
I dont remember last time i did that anyway, by the time killer gets a hook we usually have time enough to finish the rest of the gens.
Thx a lot. Nice to see people also agreeing with this post. I'm very much convinced this is the biggest problem for survivors and fixing that would probably increase the amount of survivor players.
After all the patches with killer buffs I think something like this in the patch notes would definitely win some survivor mains back.
I won't disagree. I even made an suggestion in this post how to nerf gen rush a bit. It wouldn't be much, but it's at least something. The devs could still try and keep adressing this problem in the future. I just think camping is even worse than gen rush right now. Maybe not tunneling, but camping.
Just imagine we get a gen rush nerf while killers can still camp and tunnel like they do now. Would be horrible, and the game would finally turn into a fully fleshed out lobby simulator for killers. Camping and tunneling need to be adressed first, and then gen rush.
About Ruin, I know that. But that's exactly why I believe this game isn't competitive, and never was meant to be, there's so much rng that can influence a match. If Ruin gets destroyed immediately, I just think to myself well better luck next game, and just try to do as good as possible.
And games in which Ruin lasts long enough, well they are particularly fun. I can play fair and still usually do very well.