The massive buff to an already meta perk

KingB

I'm incredibly confused why the devs would do this. Borrowed time just got a massive buff. Now, instead of the bleed out timer decreasing no matter what it only goes down if outside a chase. Now NC calling doesn't impact borrowed time at all. In order to mend yourself do you have to have self-care? I don't believe so but this is honestly ridiculous. How can anyone defend the insane buff this already meta perk just got? 

P.S. I'm a console player, I haven't got to experience these new mechanics so I'm basing it off the patch notes. If I misread/misunderstood something I apologize.

TreblucFayle

Yes, Borrowed time is now the "Deep Wounds" effect. It no longer goes down during a chase.

I'm guessing it's intended to go against the killers that just tunnel all the time (one of the purposes BT exists).

But the "mend" action (how you heal from the Deep Wounds effect), is not considered healing. So Nurses Calling does not reveal you. However insta-heals CAN NOT be used to get you out of the Deep Wounds effect. You have to mend 1st.

We'll see how the PTB goes. Things could change before it goes live.

HellDescent

You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

KingB

@TreblucFayle tunneling isn't a problem. Unsafe unhooks are. If someone unhooks in the killer's face that deserves to be punished. Not the killer for playing smart. I know, that's how it got buffed and why I'm complaining lol. Mend (to the extent of my knowledge) takes less time to complete than healing a health state. Which you used to have to do to get out of the borrowed time effect. I would much rather face an insta-heal with current bt than the new version at all.

Visionmaker

Killers: "I will facecamp because of OP Distortion perk"
BHVR: "Hold my beer." massively buffs Borrowed Time

KingB

@HellDescent I can't believe there aren't more threads complaining about this. Or even the patch in general, insanely buffs survivors.

KingB

@Visionmaker distortion really only counters NC. If someone uses it for any other reason they obviously don't know hiding in lockers disables aura readings.

purebalance

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

purebalance

@KingB said:
@TreblucFayle tunneling isn't a problem. Unsafe unhooks are. If someone unhooks in the killer's face that deserves to be punished. Not the killer for playing smart. I know, that's how it got buffed and why I'm complaining lol. Mend (to the extent of my knowledge) takes less time to complete than healing a health state. Which you used to have to do to get out of the borrowed time effect. I would much rather face an insta-heal with current bt than the new version at all.

It's not an unsafe hook if you have borrowed time. You lose a perk slot for it. It now helps serve it's purpose even better: counter to camping and tunneling.

Visionmaker

@KingB said:
@HellDescent I can't believe there aren't more threads complaining about this. Or even the patch in general, insanely buffs survivors.

These are changes that takes the game in a desirable direction: anti-camping and anti-tunneling. Camping and tunneling have been the most efficient (and lowest effort) strategies to take out survivors, and it's clear that they have been working to deter it through various means over the years.

I am not a fan of making Self Care more valuable, but it has been put in its place by the healing changes along with Sloppy Butcher being upgraded to a top tier killer perk, and furthered by indirectly buffing Nurse's Calling.

@KingB said:
@Visionmaker distortion really only counters NC. If someone uses it for any other reason they obviously don't know hiding in lockers disables aura readings.

It also counters Iron Maiden, since some killers would probably run it along with BBQC.

kaister901

@purebalance said:

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

Then what about legit players that do go to patrol and hunt others? In a realistic game. You get about 2 kills and the second kill is usually the last unlucky player when gates are open.

So with BT basically being infinite use and infinite timer. I am going to get punished for also playing a normal game. Given it's a meta perk it's a guaranteed in every game.

Visionmaker

@kaister901 said:

@purebalance said:

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

Then what about legit players that do go to patrol and hunt others? In a realistic game. You get about 2 kills and the second kill is usually the last unlucky player when gates are open.

So with BT basically being infinite use and infinite timer. I am going to get punished for also playing a normal game. Given it's a meta perk it's a guaranteed in every game.

I am sorry for you if you only have 2 kills on average, with your last kill being a facecamp. I do not think that is an accurate depiction of the game.

You should try to punish the unhooker, especially if you are going to camp anyway. It will net you more points and take the same amount of effort.

KingB

@purebalance BT only triggers if you unhook in the killers TR. That's an unsafe unhook. Camping already has a punishment gen rush and it works perfectly. It was perfect before. I had no problems but this buff is ridiculously unnecessary. 

Visionmaker

@KingB said:
@purebalance Camping already has a punishment gen rush and it works perfectly. It was perfect before. I had no problems but this buff is ridiculously unnecessary. 

In a coordinated 4 man SWF.

Solo players will never be optimal versus campers.

Parts of the game need to be designed to punish camping to counterbalance the fact that much of the game's design also encourages camping. It is ridiculous to expect players to coordinate perfectly, sacrifice a player, and interact with nothing for two minutes to combat a zero effort strategy.

Why is tunneling efficient and desirable? Why is camping efficient and desirable? Because the victim is far beyond easy to catch. Naturally killers will gravitate toward that option. (Myself included.) That does not promote good gameplay.

Delfador

Tunneling is a very cheap concept and I am glad that it gets nerfed by buffing BT.
For both sides, game started to become more and more difficult and this is whether people accept it or not, a very positive thing. No more cheap wins.
Bullshit main buildings like barn or storehouse got nerfed to the ground. Those buildings required absolutely no skill, no mindgame chance for the killer and even no bloodlust for 110% ms killers for the most part. Tunneling doesn't require much skill, it is a tactic that is for sure but at least now survivors are gonna have something to say about it. More skill oriented, less bullshit.
Not to mention this is a perk. Most people are not gonna even bother using it.

kaister901

@Visionmaker said:

@kaister901 said:

@purebalance said:

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

Then what about legit players that do go to patrol and hunt others? In a realistic game. You get about 2 kills and the second kill is usually the last unlucky player when gates are open.

So with BT basically being infinite use and infinite timer. I am going to get punished for also playing a normal game. Given it's a meta perk it's a guaranteed in every game.

I am sorry for you if you only have 2 kills on average, with your last kill being a facecamp. I do not think that is an accurate depiction of the game.

You should try to punish the unhooker, especially if you are going to camp anyway. It will net you more points and take the same amount of effort.

Uh buddy that's what a balanced game looks like. If you are not camping a balanced out game gives 2 kills on average.

Getting 3 or 4 kills often involves survivors doing mistakes on their part.

The control of the game winning or losing is predominantly in the survivor's hands. Since all killers are susceptible to loops with a few exceptions. No killer has the ability to slow down gens to give them more time. Other than certain perks like ruin which often disappear within a few seconds.

Tydetime did a good job in explaining this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB1fLYPme5chttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB1fLYPme5c

So with that argument out of the way.

Punishing a killer trying to lock that last kill in is dumb in so many levels. Especially if they played a fair game.

So the killer is suppose to "fall for the bait" and go after another fully healed survivor and obviously lose that survivor eventually. What logic is that? Only S and A tier killers would even stand a chance to down a healthy survivor. Other tier killers would be screwed massively. Like you can forget about freddy or wraith. No special ability to lock in a fresh kill.

Not to mention often a good team work would mean tons of body blocking to defend the injured survivor and let them escape. So even if you decided to hunt the healthy one...you are screwed. If your killer has no one shot ability, that killer is done for.

KingB

@Visionmaker thats untrue. Camping is a terrible strategy. If the survivors are even semi-competent they can pop 3 gens minimum. The best way to deter is to incentivize not doing it. Self-care has nothing to do with this. The patch nerfs BBQ into the ground, the counter is so brain dead easy now it's insane. But they buff BT? How does that make any sense? 

Visionmaker

@kaister901 said:

@Visionmaker said:

@kaister901 said:

@purebalance said:

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

Then what about legit players that do go to patrol and hunt others? In a realistic game. You get about 2 kills and the second kill is usually the last unlucky player when gates are open.

So with BT basically being infinite use and infinite timer. I am going to get punished for also playing a normal game. Given it's a meta perk it's a guaranteed in every game.

I am sorry for you if you only have 2 kills on average, with your last kill being a facecamp. I do not think that is an accurate depiction of the game.

You should try to punish the unhooker, especially if you are going to camp anyway. It will net you more points and take the same amount of effort.

Uh buddy that's what a balanced game looks like. If you are not camping a balanced out game gives 2 kills on average.

Getting 3 or 4 kills often involves survivors doing mistakes on their part.

The control of the game winning or losing is predominantly in the survivor's hands. Since all killers are susceptible to loops with a few exceptions. No killer has the ability to slow down gens to give them more time. Other than certain perks like ruin which often disappear within a few seconds.

Tydetime did a good job in explaining this.

Punishing a killer trying to lock that last kill in is dumb in so many levels. Especially if they played a fair game.

So the killer is suppose to "fall for the bait" and go after another fully healed survivor and obviously lose that survivor eventually. What logic is that? Only S and A tier killers would even stand a chance to down a healthy survivor. Other tier killers would be screwed massively. Like you can forget about freddy or wraith. No special ability to lock in a fresh kill.

That's a realistic game. Survivors make mistakes. Survivors are overly altruistic. Survivors can come in two pairs of SWF, each with their own different agendas. Survivors throw others under the bus or expose their teammates.

Statistically, the survival rate is below 2 survivors, not accounting for D/Cs and matches that start with 3 players.

Where were you the last ten months? #########? Do you need to see the patch notes? The only remaining issue is the strength of SWF over solos and average gen time. There has been a plethora of nerfs to survivors and various killer buffs over each and every patch, including the most recent Spirit patch.

If you are within facecamping distance and fail to injure an unhooker twice, that is your mistake. The same would happen in a regular game. You need to hit them twice or they escape, except you can't chase them around the same pallet for 20 seconds anymore.

kaister901

@Delfador said:
Tunneling is a very cheap concept and I am glad that it gets nerfed by buffing BT.
For both sides, game started to become more and more difficult and this is whether people accept it or not, a very positive thing. No more cheap wins.
Bullshit main buildings like barn or storehouse got nerfed to the ground. Those buildings required absolutely no skill, no mindgame chance for the killer and even no bloodlust for 110% ms killers for the most part. Tunneling doesn't require much skill, it is a tactic that is for sure but at least now survivors are gonna have something to say about it. More skill oriented, less bullshit.
Not to mention this is a perk. Most people are not gonna even bother using it.

Tunneling takes no skill? Yea just like looping. Going in circles for 4 times and dropping a pallet and moving to next loop spot is braindead too but survivors defend it with their lives because what other way do you have to survive?

Similarly tunneling down the one you already hooked is a guaranteed kill...it's braindead but the most economical for you as a killer. Similar to how no brain pallet looping is economical for a survivor to buy time for their team.

Visionmaker

@KingB said:
@Visionmaker thats untrue. Camping is a terrible strategy. If the survivors are even semi-competent they can pop 3 gens minimum. The best way to deter is to incentivize not doing it. Self-care has nothing to do with this. The patch nerfs BBQ into the ground, the counter is so brain dead easy now it's insane. But they buff BT? How does that make any sense? 

There has literally been a poster that camped all the way up to Rank 1 and documented his progress. lol

and I mean, I can't tell you what is what since I don't exactly need to facecamp as Hag (or is that technically all I do?). I'm just going to agree to disagree here then.

kaister901

@Visionmaker said:

@kaister901 said:

@Visionmaker said:

@kaister901 said:

@purebalance said:

@HellDescent said:
You know how you try to secure that last kill when the gates are open? Well, no more....

You still just have to hit twice like before. I carry borrowed time on characters that don't have the perks I want because too often there's camping shitters who want to sit there and slash at the hooked person like an idiot and even if I body block one hit they still try for that potato that they know they're going to get.

Then what about legit players that do go to patrol and hunt others? In a realistic game. You get about 2 kills and the second kill is usually the last unlucky player when gates are open.

So with BT basically being infinite use and infinite timer. I am going to get punished for also playing a normal game. Given it's a meta perk it's a guaranteed in every game.

I am sorry for you if you only have 2 kills on average, with your last kill being a facecamp. I do not think that is an accurate depiction of the game.

You should try to punish the unhooker, especially if you are going to camp anyway. It will net you more points and take the same amount of effort.

Uh buddy that's what a balanced game looks like. If you are not camping a balanced out game gives 2 kills on average.

Getting 3 or 4 kills often involves survivors doing mistakes on their part.

The control of the game winning or losing is predominantly in the survivor's hands. Since all killers are susceptible to loops with a few exceptions. No killer has the ability to slow down gens to give them more time. Other than certain perks like ruin which often disappear within a few seconds.

Tydetime did a good job in explaining this.

Punishing a killer trying to lock that last kill in is dumb in so many levels. Especially if they played a fair game.

So the killer is suppose to "fall for the bait" and go after another fully healed survivor and obviously lose that survivor eventually. What logic is that? Only S and A tier killers would even stand a chance to down a healthy survivor. Other tier killers would be screwed massively. Like you can forget about freddy or wraith. No special ability to lock in a fresh kill.

That's a realistic game. Survivors make mistakes. Survivors are overly altruistic. Survivors can come in two pairs of SWF, each with their own different agendas. Survivors throw others under the bus or expose their teammates.

Statistically, the survival rate is below 2 survivors, not accounting for D/Cs and matches that start with 3 players.

Where were you the last ten months? #########? Do you need to see the patch notes? The only remaining issue is the strength of SWF over solos and average gen time. There has been a plethora of nerfs to survivors over each and every patch, including the most recent Spirit patch.

If you are within facecamping distance and fail to injure an unhooker twice, that is your mistake. The same would happen in a regular game. You need to hit them twice or they escape, except you can't chase them around the same pallet for 20 seconds anymore.

The average rate is 2? So that means 2 people survive and 2 die..

How are you quoting a statistic that supports what I said?

A plethora of nerfs to survivor? Care to list them down? Cuz the biggest one was removing the vaccum of pallets which is something both sides loved.

"Survivors make mistakes. Survivors are overly altruistic". There you go, again another point agreeing with what I said which was said by tydetyme in the video. Which obviously you didn't watch because if you did. You wouldn't be making that argument.

A killer has no control over how the game goes. It's all in the survivor hands. Survivors makes mistakes by being overly altruistic? That's my point...

That's not an ideal game...if you want a definition of an ideal game...is when both sides play smart...no over altruistic team. Good gen management. Good hook management. Killer does his best in hooking every one at least once. If both sides play optimal. The killer is still heavily punished for the 2nd kill. Coming from your very statistic that is 2 or more on average...in other words it's 2...the middle number is 2...

So a optimal killer is still penalised for that 2nd kill. With a no one shot ability and B tier killer onwards is done for. It's the killer's fault for not getting in 2 hits? Let's see with SB meta. I hit the rescuing survivor once and they SB out after saving. I am still done for. Chase them down? Not if my killer has not chasing ability....

By the way how many hours have you clocked in by any chance? I have 3k hours and I know when a killer perk is too op and when a survivor perk is too op. You don't sound anywhere near to having played this game long.

Delfador

@kaister901 said:

@Delfador said:
Tunneling is a very cheap concept and I am glad that it gets nerfed by buffing BT.
For both sides, game started to become more and more difficult and this is whether people accept it or not, a very positive thing. No more cheap wins.
Bullshit main buildings like barn or storehouse got nerfed to the ground. Those buildings required absolutely no skill, no mindgame chance for the killer and even no bloodlust for 110% ms killers for the most part. Tunneling doesn't require much skill, it is a tactic that is for sure but at least now survivors are gonna have something to say about it. More skill oriented, less bullshit.
Not to mention this is a perk. Most people are not gonna even bother using it.

Tunneling takes no skill? Yea just like looping. Going in circles for 4 times and dropping a pallet and moving to next loop spot is braindead too but survivors defend it with their lives because what other way do you have to survive?

Similarly tunneling down the one you already hooked is a guaranteed kill...it's braindead but the most economical for you as a killer. Similar to how no brain pallet looping is economical for a survivor to buy time for their team.

Looping used to not take much skill because windows were really safe and there were many looping spots that didn't allow killers to mindgame. Now the game changed and most of those spots are gone. Looping is not braindead easy anymore. Not to mention that killers have perks like bamboozle that instantly kills shack and jungle gyms.
Waiting in front of a survivor and then hitting him doesn't take any skill at all. At least, now survivors can say something about it by sacrificing one perk slot.

KingB

@Visionmaker did they dodge swf groups? What killer/perks did they use? How many matches were played and how many kills did they average? There was also a depip experiment and 94% of games depipped the killer I believe. I don't need to facecamp either, if I camp it's either to 3 Gen or proxy. 

BigBubs

The buff is cuz of the new killer's power.
The new killer would be too OP if they did not. And I'm guessing that they didn't want to have 2 types of borrowed time.

KingB

@BigBubs I don't have a problem with the new killers power inflicting this status effect. I think it's a weak status effect that needs some tweaks. That being said the killer has only been out a few hours. I'm not making a definitive conclusion, just sayin what it looks like as of now. This is OP to have on borrowed time. Killers can't just chase them and let them drop, now they have to land an extra hit for no reason. It's mind-boggling how poorly thought out this change is.

kaister901

@Delfador said:

@kaister901 said:

@Delfador said:
Tunneling is a very cheap concept and I am glad that it gets nerfed by buffing BT.
For both sides, game started to become more and more difficult and this is whether people accept it or not, a very positive thing. No more cheap wins.
Bullshit main buildings like barn or storehouse got nerfed to the ground. Those buildings required absolutely no skill, no mindgame chance for the killer and even no bloodlust for 110% ms killers for the most part. Tunneling doesn't require much skill, it is a tactic that is for sure but at least now survivors are gonna have something to say about it. More skill oriented, less bullshit.
Not to mention this is a perk. Most people are not gonna even bother using it.

Tunneling takes no skill? Yea just like looping. Going in circles for 4 times and dropping a pallet and moving to next loop spot is braindead too but survivors defend it with their lives because what other way do you have to survive?

Similarly tunneling down the one you already hooked is a guaranteed kill...it's braindead but the most economical for you as a killer. Similar to how no brain pallet looping is economical for a survivor to buy time for their team.

Looping used to not take much skill because windows were really safe and there were many looping spots that didn't allow killers to mindgame. Now the game changed and most of those spots are gone. Looping is not braindead easy anymore. Not to mention that killers have perks like bamboozle that instantly kills shack and jungle gyms.
Waiting in front of a survivor and then hitting him doesn't take any skill at all. At least, now survivors can say something about it by sacrificing one perk slot.

So as a killer I must burn an entire perk slot to counter an in built game mechanic that is looping to help survivors survive? Sounds pretty balanced really. An entire perk slow to counter a game mechanic. How about just fix the game mechanic I.e the map design. Instead of forcing a meta perk? That you will have eventually revisit because it became meta?

Also bamboozled only works with window loops. Pallet loops are still a thing and thanks to map design there is still a ton of pallets around that survivor can go in circle 4 times. Drop and run to the next one. How do I know that? Cuz it happens often at high ranks. I have to either eat through the pallets or go find another survivor. Which is such a huge waste of time.

People use annoying tactics because it works and the answer is not nerfing the other player for utilising it. Change the game mechanic, change how survivors loop. Lesser pallets and loop spots. Give survivors faster gen repair speeds instead.

Change how killers can kill. Just make it simple. You won't be unable to hook the same person till you hook another one. Done. I cannot tunnel. Take it out of the game itself, if tunneling is so frowned upon. Do that and remove loops. Fix the game mechanic itself and you will see gameplay changes.

The fact it remains it means it's a game mechanic they cannot or won't change and it's wrong to punish those who use it when you provide them with that only means. Give more options that are just as economical to use.

Yea like I said...it's dumb not to be economical since time is a factor against the killer.

You can watch tydetyme video to understand that point better.

BigBubs

@KingB
Yeah the deep would is kinda meh in my opinion too.
All I say is that I can see why they changed BT. I don't say I like it.
The self mending also is a nice buff that will make you not want to break chase...
I'm kinda disappointed with that update.

Visionmaker

@kaister901 said:
The average rate is 2? So that means 2 people survive and 2 die..

How are you quoting a statistic that supports what I said?

A plethora of nerfs to survivor? Care to list them down? Cuz the biggest one was removing the vaccum of pallets which is something both sides loved.

"Survivors make mistakes. Survivors are overly altruistic". There you go, again another point agreeing with what I said which was said by tydetyme in the video. Which obviously you didn't watch because if you did. You wouldn't be making that argument.

A killer has no control over how the game goes. It's all in the survivor hands. Survivors makes mistakes by being overly altruistic? That's my point...

That's not an ideal game...if you want a definition of an ideal game...is when both sides play smart...no over altruistic team. Good gen management. Good hook management. Killer does his best in hooking every one at least once. If both sides play optimal. The killer is still heavily punished for the 2nd kill. Coming from your very statistic that is 2 or more on average...in other words it's 2...the middle number is 2...
By the way how many hours have you clocked in by any chance? I have 3k hours and I know when a killer perk is too op and when a survivor perk is too op. You don't sound anywhere near to having played this game long.

40% of people survive through gates and hatch, 60% die. The rates would be even lower to account for D/Cs. That's not 2:2. This goes for all ranks. Including the supposed tippy top.

I thought we were talking about a realistic game, not a sweaty hypothetical ranting about an asymmetrical game's core necessities.

I was going to list the changes for you, but then I recall that you clocked in 3000 hours of the game. So if you don't notice how your games have been changing for you over time, then perhaps that speaks for the 'value' of your 'experience'.

Go. Cling onto a disillusioned rant from January. The devs should see exactly who they are pandering to and how much they actually get from it.

@KingB said:
@Visionmaker did they dodge swf groups? What killer/perks did they use? How many matches were played and how many kills did they average? There was also a depip experiment and 94% of games depipped the killer I believe. I don't need to facecamp either, if I camp it's either to 3 Gen or proxy.

I don't know. I think you can search "Camping experiment" in the forum and you can find the thread. I posted once, but I wasn't very active at the time and can't remember the user's name. IIRC, HybridPanda also posted a gameplay series that he tested camping with, but I don't know how far he went with it.

That's great. Marth had an interesting concept. That doesn't defeat the fact that camping is practical enough to bring a killer to Rank 1 May not be helpful in a tournament, but it is enough for our ranking system.

Avariku

something needed to be done about the ridiculous number of campers and I'm glad they did it. Will it suck to have to deal with now as killer? yea, it will  but that's the price we ALL have to pay because some trolly entitled killers couldn't stop their nonsense. 

only thing I hate about it is that the ones who DESERVE to be camped will likely benefit most. (trolly teabaggers, the ones who always seem to lead you to someone else, and those who like to click their dollar-store flashlights repeatedly.)

KingB

@Avariku many things have already been done. They were re-balancing the game and starting to stop making every thing so survivor sided so killers would have no need to camp. Plus multiple perks were brought in to incentivize not camping and this worked well. I rarely ever encounter people above rank 15 that hardcore face camp for no reason. Borrowed time was already a thing, and it was already good. This is complete overkill. How can you like this? This patch ALSO nerfs the biggest incentive for not camping into the ground. BBQ will become a terrible perk after this patch goes live. 

Avariku

I like it because contrary to your experiences I run into campers quite often. 1/3-4 matches usually at rank 9-11.  

and yea, borrowed time was a thing, but then the camper became a tunneler and the bs cycle continued. 

the pause on the timer fixes that. I also expect many things from this patch will be tweaked over time. 

also, if you didn't notice, I acknowledge its gonna suck to go up against, but I feel its the price we all have to pay due to some toxic players behavior. 

(for the record, I usually have nothing against tunneling because, when not done with toxic motives, its essentially just target prioritization)

kaister901

@Visionmaker said:

@kaister901 said:
The average rate is 2? So that means 2 people survive and 2 die..

How are you quoting a statistic that supports what I said?

A plethora of nerfs to survivor? Care to list them down? Cuz the biggest one was removing the vaccum of pallets which is something both sides loved.

"Survivors make mistakes. Survivors are overly altruistic". There you go, again another point agreeing with what I said which was said by tydetyme in the video. Which obviously you didn't watch because if you did. You wouldn't be making that argument.

A killer has no control over how the game goes. It's all in the survivor hands. Survivors makes mistakes by being overly altruistic? That's my point...

That's not an ideal game...if you want a definition of an ideal game...is when both sides play smart...no over altruistic team. Good gen management. Good hook management. Killer does his best in hooking every one at least once. If both sides play optimal. The killer is still heavily punished for the 2nd kill. Coming from your very statistic that is 2 or more on average...in other words it's 2...the middle number is 2...
By the way how many hours have you clocked in by any chance? I have 3k hours and I know when a killer perk is too op and when a survivor perk is too op. You don't sound anywhere near to having played this game long.

40% of people survive through gates and hatch, 60% die. The rates would be even lower to account for D/Cs. That's not 2:2. This goes for all ranks. Including the supposed tippy top.

I thought we were talking about a realistic game, not a sweaty hypothetical ranting about an asymmetrical game's core necessities.

I was going to list the changes for you, but then I recall that you clocked in 3000 hours of the game. So if you don't notice how your games have been changing for you over time, then perhaps that speaks for the 'value' of your 'experience'.

Go. Cling onto a disillusioned rant from January. The devs should see exactly who they are pandering to and how much they actually get from it.

@KingB said:
@Visionmaker did they dodge swf groups? What killer/perks did they use? How many matches were played and how many kills did they average? There was also a depip experiment and 94% of games depipped the killer I believe. I don't need to facecamp either, if I camp it's either to 3 Gen or proxy.

I don't know. I think you can search "Camping experiment" in the forum and you can find the thread. I posted once, but I wasn't very active at the time and can't remember the user's name. IIRC, HybridPanda also posted a gameplay series that he tested camping with, but I don't know how far he went with it.

That's great. Marth had an interesting concept. That doesn't defeat the fact that camping is practical enough to bring a killer to Rank 1 May not be helpful in a tournament, but it is enough for our ranking system.

I was going to list the changes for you.

Yea more like you don't have any to list.

Go. Cling onto a disillusioned rant from January. The devs should see exactly who they are pandering to and how much they actually get from it.

Probably they should be listening to people who are spending more time playing their game than casuals like you.

kaister901

@Avariku said:
I like it because contrary to your experiences I run into campers quite often. 1/3-4 matches usually at rank 9-11.  

and yea, borrowed time was a thing, but then the camper became a tunneler and the bs cycle continued. 

the pause on the timer fixes that. I also expect many things from this patch will be tweaked over time. 

also, if you didn't notice, I acknowledge its gonna suck to go up against, but I feel its the price we all have to pay due to some toxic players behavior. 

(for the record, I usually have nothing against tunneling because, when not done with toxic motives, its essentially just target prioritization)

Toxic players? I don't know about toxic killers. I only tunnel down survivors that BM. Other wise I play a normal game. I already maxed out everything. So it's more of just having fun at this point but if I ever do tunnel to ruin a game for someone, it's for people that BM in game.

Avariku

excuse my ignorance....  BM?

Avariku

and you ONLY know of toxic survivors? really?

KingB

@Avariku that's a legit playstyle like it or not. That's a bad argument that because some people are toxic we all suffer. Is crouching removed because some survivors teabag? Are flashlights removed because some people act really toxic with them? Do we remove DS even though anyone not new using it is toxic? No, we don't punish the vast majority of players due to a small number of toxic idiots. BT can lead to just as much toxicity as camping. The person who brought ds, a flashlight, teabags at every opportunity, finally gets down twice and you hook them. Then you camp them to get sweet revenge and theor teammate runs up and gets them off the hook with borrowed time. They take maybe one hit before sprint bursting/using some perk that causes exhaustion to get away (exhaustion resets on hook now, yet another counter to camping) then reaches exit gates and teabags. Non-PTB BT is a race. If you can't get there quick enough you will collapse or killer will gain enough distance to smack you. It's fine and balanced as it is now. The buff is poorly thought out and incredibly unnecessary.

Avariku

so, you're main argument is that camping is a legit playstyle? 
what, cause the devs said so? 
yet here they are actively buffing something to cancel it out a bit... so maybe you should revisit your views on that? 

also, did you not just literally elaborate on the very point I made?  that it will absolutely suck that some toxic players will benefit from this? 

At this point it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing... so... have fun with that...  we will just have to wait and see what changes are made in the future. 

KingB

@Avariku Actually yes, that is my main argument. That tunneling/camping are legit playstyles. How can you even argue against that when you even admit the devs said it's a legit playstyle? They are trying to discourage it because even though it is a strategy it still isn't fun for the survivor. What, that camping is toxic? I've never claimed otherwise. It's scummy but it's usually either due to a new killer or it was provoked. It's a losing strategy and if the killer gets more than one kill that's the survivors fault for not being able to punish it properly. They are actively buffing something THAT ALREADY WORKED TO COUNTER IT AND WAS ALREADY META. I'm arguing the buff was un-necessary. Borrowed time already countered tunneling/camping perfect and no killers had any complains. At this point it I really have no clue what your point even is other than camping and tunneling is bad which I agreed but also said it's a legit playstyle and buffing an already meta perk that counters this is, for lack of a better word, stupid.

Might_Oakk

Did anyone else think this was gonna be about the pebble buffs

MegaWaffle

@KingB said:
@Visionmaker distortion really only counters NC. If someone uses it for any other reason they obviously don't know hiding in lockers disables aura readings.

I pray this is a joke if not then I pray that you never face anyone using BBQ. Best of luck.

MegaWaffle

@KingB said:
@Avariku many things have already been done. They were re-balancing the game and starting to stop making every thing so survivor sided so killers would have no need to camp. Plus multiple perks were brought in to incentivize not camping and this worked well. I rarely ever encounter people above rank 15 that hardcore face camp for no reason. Borrowed time was already a thing, and it was already good. This is complete overkill. How can you like this? This patch ALSO nerfs the biggest incentive for not camping into the ground. BBQ will become a terrible perk after this patch goes live. 

Although I agree that Distortion perk will have adverse affects on newer or more casual (in time played) killers I don't really think having your BBQ aura blocked will do much. If you didn't see an aura before you assumed everyone was nearby and would search the area, now if everyone is running Distortion you will most likely still stay nearby in case people happened to be close. The only thing I see Distortion truly affecting in Nurses Calling.

Cetren

Honestly, I was feeling iffy on the change too until I put my thoughts into context. All this really does is lower the need for self care by allowing players to mend themselves without having it. Before you had to have self care to keep yourself up, or a medkit. Now people can shift further away from it in favor of other perks.

Master

@KingB said:
I'm incredibly confused why the devs would do this. Borrowed time just got a massive buff. Now, instead of the bleed out timer decreasing no matter what it only goes down if outside a chase. Now NC calling doesn't impact borrowed time at all. In order to mend yourself do you have to have self-care? I don't believe so but this is honestly ridiculous. How can anyone defend the insane buff this already meta perk just got? 

P.S. I'm a console player, I haven't got to experience these new mechanics so I'm basing it off the patch notes. If I misread/misunderstood something I apologize.

They adressed camping already, now they are trying to adress tunneling.

Im still waiting for them to fix camping and tunneling on the survivors side though

Rebel_Raven

Avariku said:

excuse my ignorance....  BM?

Bad Manners. 

KingB

@Cetren think of it this way. I don't know of anyone who runs self care in case of a borrowed time save. Then think of this, mend takes less time, doesn't require a perk to fix, and now the bar doesn't go down in chase. This new version is astoundingly stronger, borrowed time before was absolutely perfect. This is ridiculous.

KingB

@MegaWaffle if you use distortion to hide from bbq that's a waste of a perk. Now it's brain-dead easy to counter. Literally jump in a locker when the killer picks someone up. Most you wait is I believe 16 seconds? Nobody is going to use BBQ anymore. This completely nerfs it into the ground. When people said they only used it for the blood points, it was true. The bloodpoint gain made the mediocre at best perk worthwhile. If you get caught by BBQ after this patch you are just bad. 

Morfedel

Remember though, in a trade off for Borrowed Time becoming Deep Wounds, its timer was reduced significantly. So it doesnt count down during a chase, but it doesn't have as long a timer.

Does that balance out? I don't know. My gut feeling is Deep Wounds is a neat idea that needs to be reworked. Having it count down while in a chase just isn't going to work unless they increase the timer significantly to make up for it. But I'm not sure what the best solution for it is.

Cetren

Morfedel said:

Remember though, in a trade off for Borrowed Time becoming Deep Wounds, its timer was reduced significantly. So it doesnt count down during a chase, but it doesn't have as long a timer.

Does that balance out? I don't know. My gut feeling is Deep Wounds is a neat idea that needs to be reworked. Having it count down while in a chase just isn't going to work unless they increase the timer significantly to make up for it. But I'm not sure what the best solution for it is.

They reduced it by five seconds. I'm fine with the change, but don't be silly enough to argue that that's a fair trade off. 

KingB

@Morfedel it wasn't reduced massively from what I know. It was reduced 5 seconds. It was fine before. Having it count down in a chase is what balanced it. Even though the timer was reduced (literally meaningless change btw they could reduce it to 10 seconds and it would be fine) you one don't have to heal a full health state anymore, two don't need self-care to prevent yourself from going down, and 3 my biggest problem with the buff is its un-necessary. Borrowed time was already meta and already perfect.

Wolf74

The change is terrible. BT timer reduced by 5 seconds is worth nothing. Good looper can now waste your time like crazy, because the timer does not run out while chased.
And you can get chased forever and right out the open gate, because the timer won't run out!
And to "mend" you do no longer need help or SC or a medkit… just rub your belly for 15 seconds while you are unaffected by Sloppy, NC, Caulthro, etc.