Nurse's range addons are unhealthy and broken
This is not going to be a rant thread, because I actually did some maths and therefore I'm bringing some quality data to support my thesis, so brace yourselves because this is going to be a long thread, with numbers too. A lot of stuff will be repeated and/or redundant, partly to understand what numbers I'm using (so you can scroll back and see how I calculated them), partly for myself since I wrote this in pieces.
First of all, we will need some data. More specifically, power times and movement speeds, that can be gathered here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Sally_Smithson#Power_Trivia and here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Movement_Speeds#The_Nurse
I will expose the assumptions I'm making:
- we are taking into consideration raw distances. This to avoid discussions like "yes but break line of sight and double back" or stuff like that, which has no value whatsoever in the points I'm going to make;
- the nurse 'example' we are using will have no 'dead times': therefore, we are looking at the optimal use of movement blink charging times (no seconds wasted between the moment the blinks are ready and the moment the nurse starts charging them, no overcharging of the first blink: everything will be immediate), while always holding W (always moving forward) towards the survivor;
- we are assuming range addons are working as intended. More specifically, as stated in the pwoer trivia, a blink maximum time is 1.5 seconds. The addons descriptions only mention that the charge time is increased (maintaining the normal charge time / meters ratio) but not the blink time, which is capped at 1.5 seconds. Therefore I assume that for blinks longer than 20 meters, the cap will always be 1.5 seconds per blink -> changes the blink movement speed to compensate;
- the second blink is assumed to last 1 second and to cover the full distance of 12 meters;
- last assumption: I'm taking into consideration the "worst case scenario" for the nurse, which is having to catch up after blinking twice and lunging, giving her the longest fatigue + full recovery of both blinks.
So let's start with the numbers. At first I will analyze the distances covered while using no addons, dark cinture alone, fragile wheeze alone, and both the addons together. Then we will compare the results with range addons. The formula used is simple:
Total distance = Fatigue duration × Fatigue movement speed + Walking time × Walking movement speed + Blink charge time × Blink charge movement speed + Blink range (max) + Chain blink time × Chain blink movement speed + Second blink range (max)
The fatigue for the aforementioned scenario lasts 3.5 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 0.96 m/s. The distance covered is 3.36 m (constant).
Charging the first full blink takes 2 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 2.89 m/s. Space covered = 5.78 m.
The first blink lasts 1.5 seconds and covers 20 meters. The second blink is assumed to last around 1 second and cover 12 meters (^assumption). To charge it, the nurse will use 1.2 seconds at which she moves at 1.16 m/s. Distance covered: 1.392 m.
Total fixed distance: 42.532 m; total fixed time: 9.2s
The only variable in this case is the time that the nurse consumes walking normally after fatigue, which is affected by the addons. Therefore, I will calculate the single cases and add up the fixed values to each one of them:
- no addons: walks for 2.5 seconds at normal movement speed of 3.85 m/s. Distance covered: 9.625 m. Total distance covered: 52.157 m. Total time: 11.7 s. Avg speed: 4.46 m/s
- dark cincture: walks for 1.7 s. Distance covered: 6.545 m. Total distance covered: 49.077 m. Total time: 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.50 m/s.
- fragile wheeze: walks for 1.3 s. Distance covered: 5.005 m. Total distance covered: 47.537 m. Total time: 10.5 s. Avg speed: 4.53 m/s.
- both addons: walks for 0.5 s. Distance covered: 1.925 m. Total distance covered: 44.457 m. Total time: 9.7 s. Avg speed: 4.58 m/s.
Now lets compare this data with a survivor's data, namely the survivor that has just been M1ed and is running in a straight line away from the nurse. The survivor's data is obviously easier to calculate. They will have a fixed 6 m/s speed boost for 2 seconds (fixed 12 meters), then run at 4 m/s for the remaining time. I'm not considering any decelarion aspect (is there even any?): the transition between the 6 m/s and the 4 m/s is instant.
- no addons: 12 + (11.7 - 2) × 4 = 50.8 m. Distance difference: 1.357 m.
- dark cincture: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Distance difference: 1.477 m.
- fragile wheeze: 12 + (10.5 - 2) × 4 = 46 m. Distance difference: 1.537 m.
- both addons: 12 + (9.7 - 2) × 4 = 42.8 m. Distance difference: 1.657 m.
This means that the better addon you use, the more distance the nurse covers, giving a smaller window of reaction to the survivor. Bear in mind that we're not taking into account the lunge too, as it would happen instantly after the data provided. But anyway, as you can see, the actual difference between using and not using addons is merely 30 cms. The 'actual' difference is that everything is sped up as it takes place in a smaller window of time. However, this is not what this thread is looking into. This data is used as a source of comparison with the actual point of the thread, which I'm going to explain now.
When we take into consideration range addons (Heavy Panting and Kavanagh's Last Breath), we intoduce another variable: charge time. However, most of the numbers used until now stay the same.
- Heavy Panting only: we add 0.4 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.156 m, and 4 meters to the blink range. Since no addons are affecting the blink recharge time, we take the previous no addons data and simply add this. Final data is: 57.313 m in 12.1 s. Average movement speed: 4.74 m/s.
- KLB only: we add 0.6 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.734 m, and add 6 meters to the total distance = 59.891 m in 12.3 s. Avg speed: 4.87 m/s.
- Both addons: we add 1 second to charging time at 2.89 m/s = 2.89 m, and add 10 meters to the total range. Total distance covered: 65.047 m in 12.7 s. Avg speed: 5.12 m/s.
- Heavy Panting + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.156 + 4 = 54.233 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.4 = 11.3 s. Avg speed: 4.80 m/s
- Heavy Panting + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.156 + 4 = 52.693 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.4 = 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.83 m/s.
- KLB + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.734 + 6 = 56.811 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.6 = 11.5 s. Avg speed: 4.94 m/s
- KLB + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.734 + 6 = 55.271 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.6 = 11.1 s. Avg speed: 4.98 m/s.
Looking at the average speed alone, you can already conclude how strong range addons have. But let's compare it in terms of 'closing the gap' with the survivor, by calculating the distance covered by them in the same fragment of time and then subtracting it to the distance covered by the nurse:
- Heavy panting: 12 + (12.1 - 2) × 4 = 52.4 m. Distance difference: 4.913 m.
- KLB: 12 + (12.3 - 2) × 4 = 53.2 m. Difference: 6.691 m.
- Both addons: 12 + (12.7 - 2) × 4 = 54.8 m. Difference: 10.247 m.
- HP + DC: 12 + (11.3 - 2) × 4 = 49.2 m. Difference: 5.033 m.
- HP + FW: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Difference: 5.093 m.
- KLB + DC: 12 + (11.5 - 2) × 4 = 50 m. Difference: 6.811 m.
- KLB + FW: 12 + (11.1 - 2) × 4 = 48.4 m. Difference: 6.871 m.
Conclusion + personal comment:
As you can see, the distance covered when using range addons is a lot higher than that of the survivor. Not only that, but the use of Fragile wheeze only, in terms of raw distance, gives almost 300% more distance than using both recharge addons together. This renders almost any effort of making distance from the nurse useless, as she can immediately close the gap. I don't think this is healthy at all for the game, and the fact that those addons have no downside whatsoever is mindblowing for me.
As I said earlier, recharge addons almost have no impact on the difference of the raw distances covered, they just impact the speed at which the game is played, and I don't want to discuss the balance of that in this thread, as the numbers are very similar.
If we want to consider a more realistic scenario, the nurse will hit the survivor, and they will run somewhere where they can break line of sight. The nurse will be forced to walk for longer than the recharge time required. Then she will blink again to catch the survivor, who is probably trying to break LoS and build distance. If they 'win' the mindgame, they have a chance to actually make said distance, forcing the nurse to be a lot more precise in her next blink series. However, outplaying a nurse with range addons is basically useless, because she can close the gap immediately.
If we take an addonless spirit for example, in the situation where she M1s a survivor and has her phase ready to go, you will find out that the duration of the phase is just enough for her to be in lunge range, if she tracks the exact same pathing as the survivor, and provided that there are no pallets or windows in between (you can do the math). Nurse doesn't care about these. So I don't think it is healthy for her to keep having these addons, at least with no downside. Taking spirit as example again, it would be as if Yakuyoke Amulet was never nerfed, or if MDR showed scratchmarks).
Finally, even though in terms of raw numbers, double range addons combination is the strongest, I personally think that the 'best' is KLB + FW, as it helps cover the gap while also giving only 1.3 seconds of 'forced' walking time while the nurse can locate the survivor again.
Again, this is not a thread about nurse, but about her addons.
NB: I posted the average movement speeds as a normalization metric, as every case examined took into consideration different times and distances covered. However, this is not a discussion on the average speed of the nurse. Don't interpret it as "wow, she's actually faster than a standard 4.6!", because every killer has a way of closing the gap with survivors, and on average they will have an overall speed higher than 4.6 m/s too (blight, spirit, billy moving extremely fast almost as much as they want, clown and freddy slowing down survivors which could be seen as them speeding up, and so on).
NBB: I really hope the math is correct. Maybe I made some mistakes here and there, if someone had the time to double check this it would do me a great favor :)
Comments
me??
i agree title, but remember most killers can't do much with their best addons against brain having survivors
or only playable with them
Disagree on the addon dependant, at least for public matches. I almost always play her addonless, and those rare times I end up facing really good survivors yes, I do get defeated, but I always end up with 4-7 hooks, while running no slowdowns either. Adn that's really map dependant too (badham and yamaoka being the maps I perform the worst in). Most of my games are 2-4ks. But that's still beyond the point. Addons for a killer are fine when they complement their power in a good way. The numbers I posted show that on average, cooldown addons are well rounded, strengthening the power without overdoing it. Range addons seem simply too busted.
As others have pointed out, it is difficult to find a 'balanced' solution because we're talking about nurse. I just don't think that these addons are healthy in their current state - just the fact that in terms of raw numbers, Heavy Panting is so much better than Fragile Wheeze (same rarity) + Dark Cincture together, is beyond ridiculous imho.
The reason why I did the calculations like that is because we introduce far too much uncertainty if we start taking into consideration variables such as breaking line of sight. I wanted to show the baseline of the numbers. My counterargument to what you said is exactly the fact that maps aren't infinite size, which forces them not to run in straight lines forever. This in turn makes any added distance gained even more valuable, so the fact that a strong killer like nurse 'lost' the mindgame, and is able to close the gap immediately with one single blink without wasting any time is simply broken.
Also, I agree that my maths were basically how an AI would work, but I think you should consider that most of the added time of a human player would be spent walking at normal movement speed (3.85 m/s), and not slowed down. So, unless the nurse literally starts walking in the opposite direction from the survivor (which I deem very unlikely in the situation of a chase, because as a killer you should have an idea of the general direction the survivor ran), the survivor gains distance too slowly for the nurse not to be able to close the gap with a single blink, since she does it diagonally, in a straight line.
That's not what I said but you do you. Considering you said you didn't even bother reading, let alone understanding the comparisons I tried to make, I don't think I have any interest in continuing this conversation.
I expected some dumb commments, but only a few people are actually trying to argue in a normal way :( Namely, the two people I'm replying in this same comment. I appreciate them
look at this way, if your within 20 meters of a nurse, a ranged add-on is not impacting her ability to blink on you. Range add-ons only matter if your further than 20 meters away from her first blink. The extra range also does not come into play for 2nd blink because nurse cannot charge fully in chain blinks. In essence, if you run out of map, there is no purpose in running a range add-on.
This is why some nurse players do not use range add-ons, but instead use double recharge add-ons. the reason being is that they can travel 20 meters with first blink and by the time they recover from fatique, they can blink again. Eventually, you will run out of map if you are staying outside of nurse's first blink range. Ranged add-on are not unfair, they just help optimize nurse's time like recharge.
The difference between her and other killers when it comes to shift-W is that holding shift-W is skillful interaction between survivor and killer player. You can compare pig's hold-W vs nurse. Pig is running forward mindlessly into forced god pallet kicks. Nurse is using her blink skills to optimize the chase. a funny comment that survivor mains would sometime say is that oppressive anti-loop killers like old slinger or artist created hold-W meta. The actual killer that created hold-W meta is nurse because she is the one killer where you cannot use loop. Your forced to shift-W in a skillful manner to outplay her blinks.
OhTofu's recent video explains quite well how busted her range addon is:
https://youtu.be/GO__HqIcmk0Take a look at what happens at 10:39 if you still have your doubts about the whole range/speed issue.
I promise I tried watching this video, but he just talks too much, I can't take it 😵💫
Uh I am honestly way too lazy to read all this. But I agree that range addons for nurse are op. The nurse is already very strong without them when the player knows what they're doing, so she really doesn't need them.
While I respect your opinion, I personally just cannot stand new addonless Nurse, the blinks feel so long to recharge and if you run into any teleport blocking hitboxes it's very unforgiving, while at least recharge like if you get hit with an object with some massive hitbox its way more forgiving. Basekit Nurse is much too slow for me and it makes me feel like I am intentionally making myself weaker for no reason, I already play on console and when I tried PC nurse for some reason the blinks felt way longer and more fluid.
So in my personal opinion, the old nurse wasn't addon dependent, but the new nurse is addon dependent unless you actively want to hinder yourself for whatever reason. Also to your other point, I think range addons should be changed, but not until they actually make the other addons worthwhile to use, because I see zero reasons to use anything besides range or recharge. Also a controversial opinion, but the third blink addon is overrated so the people who hate Nurse can have that addon as long as actually useful addons are given in return, I would actually love that lol.
That is most likely the most theoretical "please nerf Nurse" thread i have ever seen.
All these numbers and stuff.......its way too theoretical.
It doesnt factor in the human equation on both sides.
People dont play like machines or perfect AI bots.
But i am sure this thread among others will be at some point the nail in the coffin for Nurse.
If enough people complain about her BHVR will nerf her.
I can already see how this might turn out. Best case scenario for Nurse after the nerf?
Imagine playing her with matchbox and the addon that makes her a 115% M1 killer for 60 seconds.
This could be the future Nurse with best addons.
And even then people would still complain. She can teleport through things, so unfair........
Completely agree, whats the point of outplaying her then breaking FOV and gaining distance when she can just easily get in your ass again. Garbanzo design
Other than distance addons and Torn Bookmark, everything else about Nurse is perfectly designed and balanced.
I don't think she will be nerfed again, simply because she has bad stats. She is a very niche killer right now. OP can argue as much as he wants, and describe her bad stats as "dumb comments", it's the reality.
Nobody cares that in theory, you have this insane speed and you should not miss any blink, because in reality, nurses do miss, even with these "broken" addons and survivors do escape. We are not bots, we don't have wall hacks or enchanced sound. We do a lot of mistakes, and sometimes lose way too much distance or even the whole chase because of the fatigue and slow movement.
You don't balance a game around how bots making no mistakes would play the game in a perfect world. Remember they nerfed Pig and Pinhead because of stats.
I hope you are right. And i agree 100% with what you said.
I didn't say I want nurse nerfed. Her basekit is fine imho, and the numbers showed that the recharge add-ons are fine too.
I argued why I think the range add-ons are unhealthy to the gameplay. Some agreed, others disagreed, but implying that two add-ons should be reworked, doesn't mean I want her basekit nerfed
Your math is really bad though. Nurse's sustained map traversal speed is actually terrible without any range addons, and your math was so terribly bad that the entire post should be thrown out.
Big maps being bad design is something that should be changed regardless. Distance addons are still bad design.
Well i have to disagree.
The range addons are quite important, so calling them unhealthy is calling for a nerf.
And no the range addons are not unhealthy for the game at all.
A Nurse without any kind of range addon is quite awful to play, especially on large maps.
And as mentioned your "thesis" is just a theoretical construct. People are playing the Nurse not some AI super bots.
There are many instances where you can make mistakes with your blinks, make a bad prediction, land in a spot where you cant teleport through a wall even with a range addon etc.
You just cant compare these numbers to real actual gameplay where real people are playing it.
You're the one who can't understand a basic concept like average speed within a time frame, but ok
Nurse's range addons are healthy for the game, because we have large maps, and her sustained map traversal speed is terrible without any range addons.
If Nurse is on a large map, range addons encourage her to actually traverse the map, instead of just staying near a hooked survivor. If Nurse is on a large map without range addons, she is heavily encouraged to proxy camp every hooked survivor, because she's way too slow to leave a hooked survivor to patrol generators on a large map without range addons.
nurse range add-ons never increased blink movement speed. Nurse has max blink phase time. I believe its like 1.5 seconds, basically you cannot exceed that amount. so if you blink really far away, it will make you go faster to get your destination faster. Either way, 1.5 seconds is a lot of the time for survivor to react, it poses no issues.
Fun fact, Nurse did have add-ons that increase blink movement speed. One of them was grey called wooden horse. Nurse for reference moves at 333,33% speed in blinking. The add-on increased her blink movement speed slightly. If I remember correctly, it increased blink movement speed by 50%. 50% moving at 333% m/s is like 500% movement, so yes she did have instant blinks. she had a purple add-on that double her speed, but it reduced 1 blink charge. old nurse add-ons.... just about all of them were like ultra-rare power-level.
haha maybe they should bring one of those add-ons back as UR so you can experience good old nurse. If you think nurse is hard now a days to escape, you should seen her like 3 years ago.
10:39 is normal blink. its describing what I said about nurse's sphere of influence. they're really fast up-close and charge quickly. if your good at nurse, you'll usually get those hits almost consistently It is why she is strong. But hey, lowest kill-rate in the game, must be trash killer according devs, wraith over-performing. wink wink.
Large maps should be reduced also. Multiple things can be addressed simultaneously.
The devs nerfed nurse by making her need recharge addons unless your blinks are absolutely perfect. Most people are actually pretty easy to beat as nurse when they have no addons (if you know her limits). The addons in Tofu's video are broken because they make her move faster in less time and require her to charge for less time to move more distance.
Omega blink nurse is broken and should not exist. What ends up happening with the broken addons is you charge for less time to go the normal distance. That makes it so that once the nurse gets within a certain distance they literally cannot miss. As a survivor you have no reaction time and there is zero counterplay.
No addon should change the travel time of a nurse's blink as a function of: move more distance with less charge time. It would be fine if you could charge for 20% longer and get 20% more distance. Furthermore no addon should make the nurse move a greater distance faster than the normal travel time. One of the reasons Nurse was reworked was due to the fact that so many of her addons changed her blink mechanic and required constant "remembering" of how a specifc addon changed her mechanics.
While we are on the subject I still believe every killer should have a weapon cooldown animation whenever they damage a player (with the exception of the trapper). Nurse should be forced to wipe her weapon and then have fatigue on a hit. Huntress should have a delay after hitting with a hatchet equal to an M1 swing unless using STBFL). Yes that would nerf these killers but it is a required step to make all killers be on the same footing (and the next step would be making all maps be as close to the size of Coal Tower as possible).
And yes I will also be the first to say that DH should be nerfed into oblivion. If using DH gave the survivor an action interrupt (doctor's power effect is normally 2.5 seconds) for 5 seconds then it would allow you do dodge a hit but not reposition to continue looping. The most common use of DH is to avoid a hit and then vault a window or drop a pallet. A 5 second action interrupt would prevent tile chaining. This would make DH viable but not broken.
Nurse's range addons need to exist as long as the large maps exist.
And let's be honest here. The vast majority of the people in this thread aren't trying to promote for large maps and range addons to be changed at the same time. They want the range addons to be changed way before the large maps are fixed.
I always knew nurse was the slowest killer in the game! You really feel it playing basekit nurse on mothers dwelling.
not to mention those range addons give her some disadvantages as well
Yeah, as if mother's dwelling isn't miserable on literally any killer except maybe blight
If you're referring to the blink charge time added, that's not a disadvantage, because it maintains constant the ratio charge time : distance traveled. It's arguably an advantage compared to the old 'omegablink' because it doesn't screw up muscle memory
I’m no Nurse main by any stretch, but I do have a bit of experience on her and I agree. The value you can get from the range add ons is overtuned and I’m not sure why they kept it in her rework. I do appreciate the work put in to get some raw numbers to back up the claims.
It’s late and I’m tired but I will say if anyone’s counterpoint is Nurse is hard to play, or her stats are bad, or there are more broken things in the game I think you missed the point. The unanimously agreed best killer should not have an add on that removes the one consistent counter to her power, it is bad for the game.
The best killer on the game…at very high MMR…for a tiny minority of players…that have thousand of hours on her….having perfect muscle memory…making NO MISTAKES…using both range addons…using the best perks too…on a good map…against survivors that make 0 effort to break line of sight and counter her.
Thats being extremely hyperbolic. I have maybe a 50 hours on her, and can have success vs most players. She isn’t that hard to learn, it took me maybe 5 hours to get a handle on her, and I’m very average mechanically. Pretty much everything you said isn’t true, she doesn’t take a god gamer to play her, just a basic understanding of her and the game’s mechanics, and ok execution.
Show us gameplay footage of you getting a huge winstreak with nurse at high MMR.
Can you have consistent wins with the range addons or not ?
First you say she is easy to pick up, you did it under 5 hours. Then you say you are only average with her, not that good...I mean, do you really understand this killer ? Because, it seems you have a lot to learn.
How is it a poor blink if the nurse makes an accurate prediction? The further away the survivor is, the more guess work involved. It sounds like a balanced mechanic to me.
Let me clarify if there is confusion, I have success with nurse, the last 10 games I’ve played with her I’ve had 8 4k’s/3k and a hatch. That means nothing, there have been mmr tests and because of that matchmaking has been even more wonky than normal. I have no idea what my mmr is, and since it is hidden without external programs I will not know until BHVR makes it visible. When I use range add ons the games are significantly easier, because they can cover for and misplaced blinks. My point is if an average mechanical player as myself can 4K 70-80% of the time with those add ons, they are more than likely too good, and in my opinion they are far too good.
You misunderstand, the best counter to Nurse is to gain distance when she blinks poorly, not her blinking from a far distance. For example, Nurse misses a set of blinks and goes into cool down, if the survivor can get distance they absolutely want to. Range add ons mitigate that penalty to the Nurse player as they can blink farther than normal with both add ons. It’s so substantial that those first set of blinks have a much smaller time penalty, removing one of the only two counter plays to Nurse.
I agree range add-ons are bad design but your win rate is kind of a bad argument considering you yourself literally acknowledged how MMR is.
Yes but what I’m saying is that even with the range addons, and especially if they have broken line of sight, Nurse can’t tell where they went and has to use that extra blink charge to guess. If the survivor decides to double back and Nurse blinks max distance, she will be in an awful position.