Serious question
Just going to preface this by saying, i honestly don't give a damn what other people do in their lives to make themselves happy. As long as they aren't hurting others.
That being said, so we all know the devs have said that action could be taken against those purposely targeting those who use the pride charm.
My question is this, even if i were to say that I tunneled you because of the charm, is that grounds for punishment?
I mean i admit to tunneling blendettes and janes. Im not anti woman, or anti black, i just dont like those characters. I tunneled old object users and if i happen to notice a key, well that person goes first.
Now I get if the person is using slurs and otherwise offensive language, then yeah I think punishment is fitting.
Just wondering what is the baseline criteria to meet before you all think a player deserves punishment?
Comments
But for which reason would you tunnel people bc of the charm? Its no gameplay advantage.
People shouldn´t be targeted because of their race, gender, sexual preference or beliefs.
My question is this, even if i were to say that I tunneled you because of the charm, is that grounds for punishment?
At least one mod on the forum has said that the answer is yes:
There is no gameplay advantage in playing jane. No real gameplay reason that I tunnel them other than i dont like the character or any of her cosmetics. I will give hatch to every character but claudette. No im not racist i just dont like her. Should I be banned?
I completely and wholeheartedly agree
So would it be reportable if i tunneled someone and said it was because of the left 4 dead hand charm?
No.
The purpose of your post is specifically about the pride charm, the left 4 dead hand holds no symbolism towards LGBTQ+ or any other minorities.
And yes, there's little to no reason to tunnel someone because of the pride charm, the main one to believe and the most likely is simply irrational hate towards said people, which while it isn't always the case, if you're vocal about it you're being a dum dum and there's nothing else to it.
Live and let live and nobody gets in trouble for it.
Yes, anyone who tunnels because of the pride charm should be banned. No question about it.
Tbh i wouldnt even know what the charm means if it wouldnt have gotten explained to me.
I dont care how others want to live THEIR lives. They can do whatever they want as long as they arent hurting others.
OP is still asking a good question tho.
I mean, yea you should never harras someone like that and shouldnt tunnel them for that but i still wouldnt say tunneling them should be bannable. Slurs etc, sure. Ban them instantly.
But tunneling is a gameplay mechanic and tunneling someone with that charm is not neccesary different than tunneling key users.
Key user could claim aswell :,,You just tunneled me because of the key!"
I mean, its kinda harrassing key users, isnt it?
In the end of the day i still want people who tunnel people like that seeing banned.
Why? They are both cosmetics. If no reason is offered other than because cosmetic, why is one bannable but not the other?
I agree, live and let live. But you can't ascribe intention to a strangers actions. Just because you think someone hates LGBTQ+ because they don't like rainbows does actually mean you are correct. I get you are most likely correct in this instance, but if we can ban for tunneling 1 cosmetic, what's to say we can't ban for tunneling any other cosmetic?
To me the left 4 dead charm mocks physically disabled people because it is missing a finger. Im offended if im wearing it and get tunneled. No one is going to ban that killer. Why? They are both cosmetics. Why is one bannable but not the other?
If you for some bizarre reason actually say you went after them because of the charm in chat, yes you should be banned. There's no reason to actually say that unless you're either doing some kinda cringy "salt mining" or you're genuinely bigoted if you ask me.
Because each cosmetic represents something different. You have to prove that the Left 4 Dead charm represents a disability if you want to make the case you are trying to make.
I insist the left 4 dead charm represents no minority, at least vocally, you can't quite compare a videogame's iconic logo to a literal flag, a flag that is about the pride of being you and about fighting against oppression. It's something people unite under to fight together so that one day the hate crimes will end, or we will get proper respect out there.
Then again I would also like to point out that tunneling out of a strategic decision is not a bad thing regardless of a person wearing the pride or not and being the target, the difference is whether it is a logical decision, or a hate-based one, and nobody will get randomly banned for it.
The only reason to get banned is if you explicitly say you tunnel people because they're LGBT+ or respect said group, not because of wearing a charm.
The context is what matters, nothing else.
I’m going to need a ladder to be at the same height of the reach you just made lol.
Tbh it's kinda not right to target a specific person even by the character they play. How they act, however, I can understand you wanting to get rid of t baggers and whatever else.
I agree with what you say mostly. But there is a huge difference in saying, "I hate you" and "i hate rainbows"
That is what the charm means to you. But not everybody knows nor shares that belief. I mean for a large (majority?) of the world the US flag represents freedom and opportunity. However there are those who think it means hate and oppression. Just because something means something to you, and even a group of people, doesnt mean others share the same significance. As i said above, there is a huge difference between, "i hate rainbows" and "I hate you"
Never said it was a good comparison lol
Difference is i cant get banned for targetting all ace's. Even if i my screen name was 'I tunnel ace' and i actively said i tunneled you because you were ace. If i didnt repeatedly do it to the same person i would most likely not get banned. If my name was 'i tunnel rainbows' and targeted anyone with that charm i would most likely get banned
How many people have to say somerhing is offensive before it becomes bannable? When people were arguing leatherfaces claudette mask was offensive most disagreed and no one got banned for using it. Unless the user was in post game chat actually using racial insults.
I argue the same rules should imply here. Even if a person just says i hate the charm, i dont feel that is bannable. Insulting the person and making hateful insults with the intent of causing emotional harm should be.
How many people have to say somerhing is offensive before it becomes bannable? When people were arguing leatherfaces claudette mask was offensive most disagreed and no one got banned for using it. Unless the user was in post game chat actually using racial insults.
That's why the line is drawn at admitting that you tunneled someone because they had the pride charm and not just tunneling someone who happens to have the pride charm. Because the former carries a connotation that goes beyond a reasonable doubt whereas the latter does not.
I'm at a loss for words if you can't understand that the pride flag is not something that "just means something to a specific person", it's the literal definition of the wiki.
v
The rainbow flag (also known as the gay pride flag or LGBT pride flag) is a symbol of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) pride and LGBTQ social movements. The colors reflect the diversity of the LGBTQ community, as the flag is often used as a symbol of gay pride during LGBTQ rights marches.
^
This is not about rainbows and hating them or whatever, whether you have some individual thoughts or else about it, it doesn't suddenly stop being what it was meant to be at the beginning.
Mind you this whole fuss about LGBT stuff did not start after the pride charm but rather as soon as people thought All-Kill chapter was starring LGBT characters, and these things only happen as soon as something LGBT appears in whatever you imagine. It shouldn't be surprising to you that whoever belongs to it is already tired of these kinda posts and stuff, there's really a lot of bigotry outside, and believe it or not, tunneling a character for whatever reason is not equal to tunneling a person who's open about being in this group for the hate reasoning, crimes out there tell you volumes about what happens to gay or trans people nearly every single day.
That's my two cents.
This isnt about lgbtq+. This is literally about banning because of a cosmetic.
If i say i dont like the charm and say i tunneled because of the charm, i get banned. Regardless of my actual intentions or feelings. Regardless if im bigoted or not.
So by that logic, if i tunnel Elodie or Adam then i must be racist?
All im saying is that automatically ascribing motive to someone is wrong. And if you do it for a single cosmetic, then you have to do it for all of them or none of them.
And yes i feel that even if someone says they did it because of the charm, that isnt grounds for punishment. Just like if someone said, I tunneled because Adam.
And while i wholeheartedly agree that tunneling because of a cosmetic, especially a near invisible charm cosmetic, is stupid, people have their motives. And not every person has malicious or bigoted motivations.
So by that logic, if i tunnel Elodie or Adam then i must be racist?
No, just like how you don't get banned if you tunnel someone with a Pride charm. You get banned if you announce that you tunneled someone BECAUSE they had the pride charm, much like how you presumably get banned if you announced that you tunneled Elodie or Adam because they're black.
The stuff you're trying to justify or talk about has already been answered multiple times, either in my previous comments, or by others.
I don't know what you're trying to pull by this point, there's nothing else to offer as an answer, and there's no way you simply don't understand why people make out a fuss out of this already.
I haven't seen a person actually get banned under what you think.
If i say i dont like the charm, im a homophobe. If i say i dont like elodie im not racist unless i say 'because she is black'
All I am saying is if i say i tunneled you because you have the charm it should be treated the same as if i said i hate elodie.
But hating the charm automatically means im homophobic where as i have to prove im racist if i hate elodie.
Intentions are being unequally asserted. And even though it hasn't happened that we know if, the potential for it to happen is there. And also, would you really know if someone was banned for it who isn't outspoken in these forums. I never met a real life mass murderer but im pretty sure they exist.
You're entirely missing the point of our answers.
You're allowed to not like the charm. You don't get banned for that.
That said, it is not reasonable to assume that a person would intentionally tunnel someone specifically because of the charm and then deliberately announce/acknowledge that they tunneled someone out of the game because of the charm without understanding the meaning behind the charm and understanding that not being VERY careful with what you say will present you in a less than positive light.
Is it reportable to be an overt homophobe? Yes, yes it is, just like if you were to tunnel Claudette's and Adams and claim it's because they're black.
Outing yourself as targeting members or supporters of a minority is absolutely grounds for punishment. Tunneling people because of the character or perks they are using is not.
People wear the pride charm to display that they are a member of supporter of an extremely targeted group of people. Do the maths on what happens if you admit to tunneling them for it.
And you are not understanding what I am saying. We are at an impasse
And yet racist people tend to be very free with their slurs. It is very common to see racial name calling in messeges and poat game chats. Why would homophobes be any different?
And what im saying is, not liking the charm and tunneling someone because of it is exactly the same as not like adam and tunelling them. If in post game chat or messeges, the reason is i dont like the charm or i dont like adam without any other statement, then none of them are bannable.
However, it seems that their is almost a go to association with not liking the charm and being a homophobe. One that could possibly get someone banned.
I am not automatically racist if i tunnel all Fengs and i am not automatically homophobic if i dont like rainbows.
And yet racist people tend to be very free with their slurs. It is very common to see racial name calling in messeges and poat game chats. Why would homophobes be any different?
There are those who would be careful not to expose themselves, and there are those who wouldn't care and go all-out. This applies to both scenarios.
I am not automatically racist if i tunnel all Fengs and i am not automatically homophobic if i dont like rainbows.
You're not homophobic because you don't like rainbows. But consider that you said "if I don't like rainbows" and not "if I tunnel all users using that specific charm." It's because the scenario you are describing is not a reasonable one to occur.
A charm is not the same as a character. Tunneling someone for playing a specific character is you being a miserable scumbag. Tunneling someone for showing their support for LGBT+ people's is you being a homophobe. There's no two ways about it, that charm represents a lot more than just a few pretty colours and if you don't like the look of it, tough shite.
Yes. And the ones who don't hurl insults are able to keep playing the game with no one the wiser as to their motivations.
Just saying with no insults, i dont like charm or i dont like character should be treated the same.
They're not because the charm has a very specific, singular meaning whereas the characters you describe can represent many things such that there isn't something that can inherently be zeroed in on without additional context. You say that this is about the cosmetic and nothing more, but the cosmetic is so heavily linked to the idea it represents that you can't easily just separate the two without being very clear in doing so.
Seriously, it's insane that this is even a question. People play characters because they like them. People wear the pride charm to show support. These two things are clearly not the same. You should absolutely know what the pride charm means, so deliberately targeting people for it shows one of two things: you're breathtakingly ignorant and you hate rainbows, or you're a homophobe. Targeting someone for playing a minority character doesn't have the same gravity because people play characters they like, not to show support for said characters ethnicity.
They are completely the same. Pride flag represents lgbtq+, adam equal Jamaican pride, feng and yui asian pride. Every character and cosmetic in the game represents something.
And yes, you like something so to hell with everyone else. I agree. However, your opinion is yours. You are free to like something just the same as someone else is allowed to dislike something.
And if someone wants to tunnel for a charm they have the right to. They absolutely DO NOT have the right to throw around slurs and harm others physically or emotionally.
adam equal Jamaican pride, feng and yui asian pride
What do you base this claim on?
That's not true at all and you shouldn't assume as such. I'm Bi and if I tunnel someone for specifically wearing the charm I'm not suddenly a homophobe. I'm just an ######### which is a separate issue.
Personally, I think intent is more important then action in the scenario of specifically tunneling the charm.
Well see here's the thing. I would have zero idea what that pride charm represented if my daughter wasn't bi. If i wasn't on these forums i wouldnt know it was even an issue.
This game is really my only hobby. I dont have a social media presence other than these forums.
So i would argue the point that anyone would have to be aware of what that cosmetic represents. You may be hard pressed to seperate the idea from the cosmetic but that does not mean they rest of the world does
People don't play characters specifically to show their support for said characters ethnicity. That's the last thing on most players minds. The only reason to war the pride charm is to show support. The only real reason to target people for wearing that charm is to punish them for supporting the LGBT community. Pieces of absolute scum also target people for playing specific characters, however it's difficult to tell if they're racists or not because there are plenty of reasons to play specific characters and they can always hide behind the excuse of "I wasn't being racist, I hate that jacket".
What reasons would someone have for targeting people wearing the pride charm and admitting it?
tunneling someone simply because of their character is a major d!ck move, same with tunneling someone because they wear a pride charm.
On these forums i have seen posts thanking the devs for creating characters that align with their nationality or looks. If people didn't want to feel represented by the characters they played, then why is having an lgbtq+ character so important.
No not everyone uses characters for personal validation but many do.
They're an ######### and enjoy getting salty messages from people. I sometimes let all four people bleed out because I think it's funny to see someone lose their ######### and message me over it.
Yes it is a dick move, i admit it. But not bannable.
Just say you're most likely homophobic and go
But you should be banned for doing so.
I dont know. Hell half the time i dont know why i do what i do. People get paid really good money to figure stuff like that out.
All i know is saying you tunneled because they don't like the charm is the same as someone saying they dont like adams jacket. Could they be bigoted? Yeah. Probably are. But they really could just hate the jacket.
Now if they start saying garbage like i hate pride charm wearing f****** and <insert stupid homophobic insults here> then yes ban away.
I'd like to see an actual example of this occurring with someone who, using your example, hates rainbows enough to actively target people for it and then gets caught up in one hell of a misunderstanding.
Just adding a character to the game is not the same thing as actually implementing an icon that specifically represents an idea. A person can thank the devs for including a Jamaican character for the game, but that does not mean that Adam was specifically made to represent Jamaican pride, nor does it mean that Adam's character is specifically tied to Jamaican pride. The charm in question was specifically added to represent LGBTQ+ pride. So I would not inherently consider a charm explicitly added with the intent of showing that pride the same as adding a character who happens to be a certain nationality.
So the only excuse you can think of is to be a piece of shite by pretending to be a homophobe?
Um no. Because even if that were true, i dont break any games rules when i play and i dont insult or harass people during or after the game. In fact when insulted i try to open a dialogue and talk it out.
I am in no way wanting to insult people with his thread. I am choosing my words carefully. If you do take offense to anything I am saying, then maybe you need to look at yourself first
If Adams jacked was splashed with a great big "BLM", then you'd have a point, but you don't.
The pride charm represents more than just a charm. Far more than just a charm. Wearing it is deliberately expressing support for the LGBT+ community and has no other reason besides liking rainbows, and to be honest I don't think anyones complaining if someone who doesn't like rainbows and so completely ruins hundreds of people's experiences because whilst knowing full well what that charm means because they haven't been living under a rock for several decades and that admitting to it will lump them in with homophobes is then getting banned by admitting to their actions but then trying to justify them in a way that actual homophobes oftem do when they realise there's consequences.
Honey I'm literally a gay man and you're trying way too hard to justify tunneling someone because of the pride charm/their cosmetics in general. I'm sure you're not some horribly homophobic bigot but lay this argument to rest.
You should never tunnel someone specifically for their charms, cosmetics, or the character they use. And yes you should be banned for it.