Tunneling, Camping, Certain Killers
I know that tunneling and camping are not forbidden in the rules explicitly, and as someone who plays both killer and survivor (mainly killer), I know that camping is "discouraged" by losing points on your medal, and subsequently losing bloodpoints, but this isn't enough. At the very least, survivors should not depip, let alone derank, because they get tunneled or camped. I've had killers redown and rehook me before I've even had the chance to get out from under the hook. It's really not hard to play fairly as a killer. I've gotten plenty of 4ks without ever camping or tunneling. There should be some kind of penalty for doing those things. Or, perhaps the survivor's hook timer pauses if the killer is within a certain radius. There are plenty of ways to combat camping, but none of them are being implemented. And, as far as tunneling, survivors should not be able to be rehooked immediately. It wouldn't be such a big deal if the survivor didn't have negative consequences because of it, but when a killer never leaves someone alone, it's inevitable that they will depip because they never get a chance to do anything that earns them bloodpoints, and that's unfair. At the very least, if you get tunneled, you should be immune to depipping.
This brings me to certain killers that need to be reworked, namely The Pig. I have never gone against a Pig that wasn't using these tactics. Specifically, the Pig will down and hook you time after time while you're trying to get your trap off. And there are far too many Jigsaw puzzles to find yours within the timer even if they don't tunnel you, which never, ever happens. She needs a major rework because she is one of the worst, most exploitable killers in the game. Similarly, The Twins need to be reworked as well. The amount of times I've had a Twin player "camp" a survivor hooked in the basement while they go into Viktor so that they can immediately down and hook the person trying to save is ridiculous. It's less of an issue outside of the basement, though not great still.
As someone who plays killer, there are some issues on the other side as well (namely being matched with survivors who far, far outrank you). Matchmaking is very frustrating, because it keeps you stuck at a certain rank for a while, but I don't know how your system works. Another annoyance is survivors who blind you every. single. time you break a pallet. My god, that ######### is so annoying. However, I feel that for killers, the main frustration is the matchmaking. There's really not much else I can say to help killers aside from fixing matchmaking. I do think that playing against high rank survivors is good in some ways, because you learn how really good survivors play and you learn how to predict and combat it, but when that's all you do and you feel like you can't rank up, that's why people resort to tunneling and camping, and it just furthers the cycle of resentment. This game is really fun and I love playing it, but these exploits really effect the fun.
Comments
While it may suck to depip because you got camped, it's not a big deal. If you are in the ranks you should be at, it's easy enough to pip again.
JFC.
The Devs already worked with the whole 'Survivor struggles slower if the Killer camps'. Survivors abused it.
People need to stop asking for ways to prevent the Killer from winning. That's literally what people are saying when they ask for 'camping' punishments. 'It's not fun that I lost, please punish the Killer for doing something I dislike'.
How did they abuse it?
Ok, so the Killer is near the hooked Survivor.
1 Survivor does gens.
Survivors 2 & 3 stand 50 yards away, in the open. They are far enough away that the game does not register a chase. Thus, Hooked Survivor has a slowed (or stopped, as some people suggest) Struggle Meter.
They are ALSO so far away that they can run away if the Killer walks towards them, thus delaying a chase from activating for a good 5-9 seconds.
If Killer goes after #2, then #3 walks towards the hook. If the Killer turns around; #3 backs up, #2 resets. A chase never started (due to the distance), so Hooked Survivor still has a slowed Struggle Meter. #1 is still doing gens with all the time in the world.
In order to start a chase, given the distances involved, the Killer would have to move so far away that one of the free Survivors gets an unhook. This meant that the Killer has 2 choices:
It was actively forcing the Killer to allow unhooks, because it gave Survivors more time to do gens and just stand around. This was why it was never moved past the PTB. Twice.
You mean to say that an anti-camping measure prevented killers from camping?
That's like saying survivors 'abuse' sprinting when they run away from a killer.
No, Survivors used it to get free unhooks that they never deserved. JFC, it's like Survivors think anything that helps them is automatically good, with no actual thought towards balance.
'Survivors benefitted? Well then it's automatically awesome!'
I think what he's saying is that it rewarded survivors for doing nothing but hanging near the hook without actually saving. And I'm not talking about camping killers, I'm talking about killers who are at the end game collapse and their friends are like the Chris Pratt raptor meme.
Depipping because you got camped isn't a big deal though. Ranks in general don't mean a whole lot, and they'll mean even less if/when MMR gets implemented. (assuming it actually works)
If you are being camped then the killer will get less points. If your teammates are competent then they can leverage that camping against the killer in the early-mid game by doing gens. If you're being camped at the end game when gates are powered then I don't know what to tell you, other than it's not something that needs to be punished. I'm sorry you've had some rough games, but camping doesn't need to be nerfed just to compensate for an unfortunate experience.
How could the survivors abuse something that is solely determined by the killers behavior??? And if killers are camping and tunneling people out of the game every match, the survivors are not the ones exploiting anything, it is the killers. This guy is 100% right in his point that there should be something implemented in the game that discourages this behavior. I played 4 games today, there was tunneling in every single match and face camping in 2. If these were isolated or every once in a while incidents, then ok, just bad luck and a crap killer, off to the next match. But every single match, every single day is a real problem that needs addressed, it is just driving people away.
I already said how they abused it, like, 10 times. Look through my posts. Just because you can't believe it, does not change the fact that it literally happened on the PTB. And Survivors abused it.
Your belief or lack thereof does not change the past. Devs tried it, Survivors would use it for free gen times, or the Killer had to chase one and let the second unhook. It happened. This is not a hypothetical. It gods-be-damned happened. It's in the past. It was tried, and Survivors abused it.
It was tried. It failed. Because Survivors abused the mechanic. I don't care if you ask 'how' or say 'I don't see how it can be abused'. It was.
Killers should be leaving the hooks and allowing offhooks, that is how he and everyone else gets points. This description right here says that the change was working as intended, forcing the killer to engage other survivors...what he should be doing. So this just tells me that it worked. Also, one guy doing gens is still gonna take quite a while to pop 5. P.S. there is no such thing as a survivor getting an offhook they did not deserve. It is what they are supposed to be doing.
Except it should be THE KILLERS CHOICE. Why shoudl he be expected to leave a hook with TWO SURVIVORS standing there?
And why should he be punished if he does not?
That's the thing you don't get; the game should not be making the tactical decision for the Killer, and it should not kick him in the balls if he decides 'against' it. If Survivors are there, he should not be FORCED into a chase that allows an unhook.
But according to you lot; that's exactly what should happen. Free unhook; Survivor happy. Who cares about Killer. He only exists to do whatever Survivors want.
Again, survivors are supposed to offhook and killers are supposed to re-hook. That is playing the game as intended. And survivors have no choice in a camp n' tunnel scenario. You seem concerned that the killer is being victimized here because he loses his ability to victimize someone else. Instead this just forces him to play as intended and most likely raises the score and experience for all involved.
The Killer's goal is to kill. Just as the Survivors goal is to survive.
Would you agree if I made up some BS rule that Survivors have to get off gens if they pop them too fast? And started whining to the Devs that the Entity should shove Survivors away from gens if they hit too many skillchecks? Or would that be silly, since the Survivors are supposed to hit skillchecks and try to run away?
It's always 'Killers should have to let us unhook!'. No, my goal is to kill you. Camping is one of the worst ways to do it, but I should in no way be forced to not camp if I feel it's required. These ideas are stupid.
No, every player in this game has multiple objectives they have to work on to get an acceptable score and/or pip. So the tired excuse that bad behavior is the product of "killers gotta kill" does nothing to advance the discussion. Survivors don't have to escape to pip, just like killers don't need to kill to pip. So clearly that is not all there is to this game.
When I play killer I am the host of that party, if any survivor in my lobby leaves that match with under 10k I am the failure. Either I did not play the game effectively so that everyone was engaged or they gave up and left. If killers do not wish to voluntarily play with some ethics I have no problem with BHVR stepping in to make it less appealing to killers to play badly.
Your analogy is also lacking, the equivalency to working on a gen is putting a survivor in a hook. Nothing in the game prevents that from happening, so nothing in the game should be throwing survivors off gens. The equivalency of camping survivors to death would be unrelenting flashlight saves so the killer can not get a survivor on a hook, not survivors doing their objective.
How do you determine that they 'never deserved it'? You're describing three people co-ordinating perfectly to stage a rescue and we're supposed to just say "Well, the killer is skillfully staying close to the hook, so he has really outplayed the survivors and deserves the kill!"?
I still don't understand what's bad about the described situation, because there's two people openly declaring their position to you. The worst thing you can face as killer are good stealthies, because that costs you the most time. You get your pick of two people to chase and down, instead of camping out one person, and this is a bad thing? Especially since about half the roster can close gaps quickly, and another quarter can proxy camp.
Not to mention the entire thing doesn't work anymore when one person is dead, anyway.
Most people don't consider a pip a win including myself, one such reason is as you said survivors don't even need to escape to pip and sometimes even when they do escape they don't pip, and the system as a whole is bugged and inconsistent by the devs own admission(why do you think they are spending so much time working out a different method to determine skill).
There is no clear cut win condition in the game currently as pip system is broken and not a reliable source for it, though if you want to use it as your win condition be my guest, but don't expect others to use the same system as you for the sole reason of "that's how you rank up"
Also how is the survivors doing bad a result of me playing poorly I've games where survivors made consistent mistakes that resulted in them losing very quickly and thusly receiving little points how is it any fault of the killer for that?.
I play pretty fairly, I don't camp, I don't tunnel unless given no other option, I only slug when necessary or when the whole team is right in front of me as it would be stupid not too especially if you know there are flashlights in the game.
I am glad you are not a camp n' tunnel player by your admission. And I do not consider a pip a win, I consider BP the win/loss factor because that is the games currency. Rank does not mean much in terms of skill but does tend to become sweatier the lower ya go. You asked, "How is a survivors mistake my fault as killer?" But that is not the point or argument in this discussion. A survivor hanging on a hook and a killer running in to down them before their feet hit the ground in an offhook situation is not the survivor's fault, or them "making a mistake". That choice to tunnel that survivor rest solely with the killer. So OP is just spit balling ideas do decrease killers who forgo learning to play skillfully for the cheap trifecta of Camp, Tunnel and Slug. I don't know that I agree with his specific work arounds but have seen tons of good ideas float through this forum over the years, all promptly ignored by BHVR.
Jesus ######### Christ, stop putting JFC every other sentence.
Ok @alaenyia
Lets say I hook a survivor. Then another survivor comes along and runs around the hook.
If I chase them, then I'll be preventing an unhook, as no other survivors will be able to come in for the rescue.
Am I supposed to run away, let them rescue, and then come back?
Who is at fault there? The killer for not throwing the game? Or the survivor for running the killer around the hook?
Please don't tell me that the killer's actions in this scenario are not the fault of the survivor.
I'm not talking about a survivor being tunneled as a mistake I'm talking about if someone gets hooked and they try and kobe fail and then boom they lost a health state and the next time I catch them theyre dead or worse yet their team never goes to rescue even though I wasn't camping they just weren't paying attention or they just wanted to finish the gen or heal their buddy or whatever reason. Survivors also wont get many points if they get hit quickly and go down in all their chases.
Those are the kind of situations were survivors not getting many blood points because of constant mistakes are what im talking about not some poor fella who got basement camped y a bubba.