Getting better at looping as survivor is hopeless
context: almost 800 hours in this game, rank 1 on both killer and survivor and play both often.
This is the first time I've experienced a game where you need hundreds of hours before you even enter the territory of potentially becoming mediocre, and then thousands for being eligible for even being good, and then multiply that for actually being good. And I'm more or less talking exclusively about chases here such as looping, not pretty much sitting on gens or being in a swf and escaping and thus "winning".
From my perspective at least, the average survivor is very mediocre at best, more often than not (including in red ranks) worse than that. And I think a lot of people, killer mains and veterans included, can attest to that, but I never see an actual explanation as to why. And from what I gather, the skill ceiling for being a good survivor in terms of looping seems so unrealistically high, which is why few people achieve it. A killer can be mediocre, but they have powers, game functions them out, particularly meta ones. Bloodlust, basically generally any anti-loop killer, so on. Survivors really only have their exhaustion perks and it only works once in chase, and when I play killer it tends to not really get them that far in the grand scheme of things, even Dead Hard (although it is annoying when used right).
Unlike playing killer, the practice isn't linear for survivor. There are plenty of people who only play a handful of killers, and there's no mandate to play a diversity of them. For example there are Nurse mains with thousands of hours on her, and pretty much only play her. In the games they encounter they have the linear practice of being used to how survivors play against a Nurse. The techniques and whatnot that work on other killers is irrelevant. For survivors there is no linear practice and you constantly are going back and forth between killers in a random order, and many with a totally different playstyle and you have to basically be prepared on how to skillfully play in 23 different ways, as everyone has at the very least their own powers and no two are the same. Videos on how to get better at survivor aren't really helpful in my experience either, as from what I notice it comes down to being in the right place at the right time and knowing where to go and how to basically minmax your movement and be precise. Playing killer you do have to know where to go when you mindgame, but for the most part it's just going where you see survivors and/or think they are, and not needing to position yourself. On top of this, resources have RNG on top of RNG. You have variations of a variation of a given map, making it difficult to tell precisely where things are in chase. But forget what I said about looping because of how many killers this game designs where it just deletes out the resources survivors have. Deathslinger, Pyramid head, spirit, huntress, nurse, so on. So many other killers included that have no reasonable counter on the survivor's side other than simply "don't get found"/"don't get hit" but yet these killers just remove the only two resources you had to work with to begin with. And even when there is counter it's all about being in the right place at the right time and being so precise about your movement. Personally, when I play killer, I make a lot more mistakes than when I play survivor, and it's not nearly as punishing, even in red ranks. But apparently that's just me, but playing killer and winning is 1000% so much easier than survivor in terms of mindgaming in chase. Which is why I think a mediocre killer wins more on average than a team of mediocre survivors, especially if it's a strong one like Freddy or Spirit.
The only advice I see is to "git gud" but I'm sorry I don't feel like investing thousands of hours into something that has such RNG value and that just seems so poorly designed on one end. Playing more doesn't help. Youtube videos don't help. Recording and watching your own feedback doesn't help not one bit. And it's just tiresome and boresome that this game is so demanding to even be competent at it. It makes playing survivor, particularly in solo queue, miserable, and am pretty much at the point now where I'm just don't want to play it anymore since I find killer to be boring but unfortunately my friends ask me to play this game and we have no other game in common until Back To Blood comes out so I thought I would try one last time before I just seclude myself to only playing this game with friends.
Comments
Here you are again, posting no proof. Post the proof that you have please. Show actual video evidence that killers are overpowered against decent survivors. Decent Survivors don't necessarily have to be swf. I only play solo and have had an equal amount of potato teammates versus good teammates.
Oh, you can't because if you were to provide your evidence, we would be able to pick apart the videos and show how it was the survivors making mistake after mistake after mistake. The moment you accused me of being a biased killer main was enough for me to know you have nothing to back up your claims. I have always played the majority of my games as survivor, has a short streak as killer, and now almost exclusively play survivor. I would say I am as unbiased about both roles as one can possibly be.
You are just bad at the game. Anyone else who complains that killers as a whole are over powered is bad at the game. If I am wrong, please provide your evidence.
"These people with several thousands of hours beating rando's is proof that killer is op"
It's not really hopeless, you're just frustrated which a ton of players are right now considering the current state of the game. Best advice if you want to actually get good at looping is to LIMIT TEST for the next couple dozen matches and really push what you can get away with. You start noticing patterns that good killers do and once you can tell if the killer is good or bad you can adjust your play style accordingly. For instance, a decent killer will moonwalk "mindgameable" structures if he thinks you are going to camp a pallet giving him a chance to maybe get a cheeky swing in and if he goes for that play you can punish him by either timing the stun correctly or going for the riskier play of extending the loop. Little details like that you won't notice if you play really safe and always drop the pallet early or even on time so you need to stop playing from your comfort zone and try riskier plays to see how both good and bad killers react. Sometimes when you recognize that the killer is good you might notice them double backing at structures and you can just keep running to the next structure while they waste time and lose distance. These changes to your game play buy you tons of time quickly even vs decent killers. You also need to understand how to properly run the structures in the game and what the killer's choices are for each structure as well as how many times you can loop a certain structure or how to win mindgames more often. You're partially correct though... It literally becomes a guessing game at the highest level between two equally skilled players during a chase and sometimes you just pick wrong and lose which is kind of the point.. Game would be pretty bland if you got so good you literally never lost. Sorry for wall of text.
And I could pick apart your videos and show the killer main making mistakes too. This is the only thing I ever get from people defending this, that the survivor is making mistakes but it is never the other way around. The theme is that killers are all good skilled gamers and survivors are all potatoes and I don't believe it. You even accused me of bad without even knowing me you are so biased about it.
I don't have proof of myself playing, I play as a hobby in my spare time, I already have a job making a fair salary. I said to go watch a popular killer streamer for proof but you didn't even hear me. Ironically, one has a title today says he hasn't lost a game since January 1st as killer. That is remarkable. But you are not interested in this kind of real proof.
A question just out of curiousity: Can you even play killer with carpal tunnel syndrome? I figure your tendons must feel like fire when playing killer as you don't get to chill at any moment throughout the match whereas survivors pretty much go AFK while repairing gens.
I can play Trapper and Hag, but I can't play very many matches. And if it's a sweaty swf bully squad with OoO, I don't even try. I just face a corner, it's not worth the stress or pain. Trap killers are easier on my hand since right clicking isn't too difficult.
Playing survivor is much more forgiving. If i get a cramp, I can just go in a locker for a few secs and do my hand stretches. If I'm in a chase, I just run across the map and try to juke the killer by stealthing away. It works more often than one would think and it makes me giggle with glee when I watch them check behind rocks and trees in the wrong direction. If I am chased too long and my hand hurt, I sometimes just let them down me.
I know it sucks and I wish I could be a better teammate, but it is what it is and love this game too much to just stop playing. I really wish I could 360 or look behind myself while running, but I can't. So I will stealth and do objectives. That doesn't mean I won't take aggro though. If I know a teammate is on death hook, I will run in front of the killer and just stand there for him to come at me.
I really hope they come out with a new hide and seek mode that is more difficult to survive and somehow scarier. I miss the adrenaline rush I got from first playing this game. I literally couldn't sleep from how pumped it made me, which is rare for me.
The difference is if a killer makes a mistake, it can cost them the whole match, whereas if a survivor makes a mistake, they get chance after chance after chance. No one is saying all survivors are potatoes, we are just saying that solo is miserable due to the potatoes that we are currently matched with. It's not overpowered killers that are making the game miserable, but poor matchmaking. Once the devs fix that, the game would feel more fair for most people.
With your admission that this is just a hobby and you only play this in your spare time, what makes you think that your opinion is valid enough? You having a job or having a "fair salary" is irrelevant.
You're more than welcome to post a link to the killer you're referencing to. But you are not interested in providing real proof.
I would stop responding. They are very well known on the forums. Basically a bait account you're not gonna get through to them.
That's because it is asymmetrical causing killer to be more engaging. That's normal and nothing to do with balance.
I gave you proof. I expect you to do a little effort on your part.
Have you tried playing on a controller or does it make no difference when it comes to pain ? Just wondering as it would allow you to look behind you due to thumb movement only / no wrist movement.
Yea, you're right.
I learned this game using a keyboard and when I didn't have a controller. I actually ended up buying one, but found it annoying to try and relearn the inputs. It would be easier on my wrists if I could try again and get used to it, but I really just need to stop playing and break my addiction to DbD.
So, I know you said that YouTube videos don’t help, and I thought the same thing at first. I pretty much exclusively watched TRU3, because I didn’t care for notord, or monto. But it wasn’t until I discovered Usyllis that I began to improve at looping. TRU3 taught me strategies that were for advanced players, and his play style was very different from mine. I realized that he plays very calculated with set strategies ahead of time, I play more intuitively, I didn’t improve on loops watching TRU3 basically at all, but with Usyllis, something clicked. My looping game improved quite a bit. Then I came back to TRU3, and realized that he taught very good strategies against specific killers. You might not find their videos helpful, but I use TRU3’s strategies against spirit and nurse constantly, and they are amazing, but Usyllis pathing in loops clicks for me.
I don’t know how many hours I have into survivor, but my devotion level is coming up on 8, and I think I’m getting the hang of looping a bit better. I know that is a lot of time into survivor, but I love the game!
That's the conclusion I came to, and I'm not really seeing any arguments that say otherwise tbh. The only counter is to be not only a swf, but a good one (unless the killer is bad, then even a swf with survivors who play badly can outplay then), but we've already seen according to the devs statistics that the majority of survivors play in solo queue.
Even when using Unbreakable and DS pub games are often times impossible to win. Meanwhile if I use undying and ruin on a freddy I'm going to win at least 3 out of 4 of my matches with ease. Hell, even before I used undying and ruin I was using pop, oppression, and surveillance, and still won 3 out of 4 of my games. Undying and ruin just made me sweat a lot less.
It's just overwhelming, and it's like I have to study for some class to get better at survivor whereas it's typically more simple not only in relativity but in general to compete in red rank pub games as killer while being mediocre and winning most of your matches.
I'd disagree on that, reaction times are very important on both sides. I also do use windows of opportunity regularly but it's only a little help, and not a lot. And I'm sorry but it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Also, those survivor content creators are narrating their own specific chase. They are on a particular side of the map, in a particular jungle gym, with a particular map RNG and particular perks, as well as against a particular killer. You can't just copy and paste and become good at looping when there are so many variables.
I also watch DBD streamers regularly, both killer and survivor. Pretty much every day
There's no disagreement about what I meant. I explained what I meant and how what I said meant a particular meaning. Neither of you two have a space to contest that, but you do have a space in continuing being the smoothbrain you are and contributing to my thread and giving it more attention than it already has. You're mostly good for nothing, but at least are dumb enough to coincidentally be good for something. Keep it up, chump
Feel free to insert whatever second cheesy comeback you've got but unfortunately a clown can entertain themselves and there's no assistance on my part needed to do that for you, so this exchange ends here. Feel free to stick around though as you already have been.
No need to apologise for the wall of text, and thank you for responding (as well as the lot of everyone else).
I do notice details, but it's really just weird that I can't seem to wrap my brain around what the killer is doing. Personally I play in a particular way as killer and the survivors I see don't really play any different, therefore it's easy to know what they're doing, even if I don't personally do them myself. My issue isn't about winning or anything; some of my favourite games actually I lost, but it either was unique and/or I had a good chase. Like the most scary game I had was maybe a month ago. I was giving Object of Obsession a try and was kind of liking it since I wanted to get better at chase so I thought why not make a perk where I'm going to be the centre of the killer's attention. But it was on Midwich, against a Scratch Mirror Myers with Huntress Lullaby. Extremely difficult game, and somehow I managed to be the last one alive. Other favourite games were against some good nurses that I manage to loop around a bit. I died, but the chases were fun (one reason why I get excited going against nurses).
There's also "creating" loops as well, and I've been trying to do that recently but it's really meh. Like if there are two pallets near each other, I will pre drop, circle around them a few times, then go to the other to do the same thing and kind of create a faux jungle gym. But it's all really variable depending on the killer, and there are plenty of killers I suck going against. It also could be that maybe I'm underrating how I play. It didn't strike me until now that it would've made more sense to show what I actually play like, not for critiques (although much appreciated) but for context as to what I'm saying. I only have one that's viable to upload (i tried uploading the other which shows more of a chase but it's on The Game and the video is dark as #########, almost black, when downstairs).
I was playing with a streamer and her friends here. We weren't on comms. Chase happens at about 8:54
Holy ######### your cringe. You can't even present your argument properly,, get called out on it, have a zero iq comeback, get called out again and just ignore it. If this is what survivors mains are like im not surprised they need the devs to cater to them
At the base of the game looping is the same with every killer. Its only different when they use their power. How boring would it be if evey killer was just a wraith every game? Its good that different killers makes you play differently. It forces you to adapt and think instead of mindlessly looping the same obstacles over and over again.
I don't think I ever said or implied all killers should be the same. And that's my point, their power gives them minor to major nuances, and even still none are really ever the same. Even height of a killer can change how you loop.
Okay great! You got some footage so I can actually give you some better help. So at 9 30 in the video vs the wraith you got a killer stun at a pretty unsafe pallet in general and once a pallet is thrown down (at an unsafe pallet) it becomes REALLY unsafe and you waited for the wraith to recover from the stun to see what his move is. In this situation you should just take off running asap because you could have gotten so much more distance especially because he didn't have enduring. In this specific clip you were able to make it to another pallet (another unsafe unfortunately), but in other circumstances you wouldn't have because you gave the killer time to recover and catch up. Now at longer loops what you are doing is correct, wait a bit for him to almost recover and start running BUT make sure he kicks the pallet. If he doesn't kick the pallet run the long side of the loop until you force him to break it (you seem to be doing this correct). Good body blocking later for your teammates you played that nice and you 3 got out which is great. Other than that it just takes time and like i said earlier you have to LIMIT TEST if you really want to see how good you can become which means dont worry about dying, but focus on seeing what you can get away with. Also i see that your console.. idk if you can, but if you have the option to turn your camera sensitivity up i would recommend it on a bit higher around 70% so you can easily turn your camera more often and look at the killer a bit more during the chase because it helps a ton and could have been the difference at 9 48 (It was a tense situation and I still do this sometimes dont worry).
Anyways, good luck! Don't take my criticism harshly I don't mean it that way at all I can tell you just want to improve so here is some advice that I wish i knew earlier.
You should be focused on fixing generators and escaping. Running around in circles is nothing to brag about and I definitely wouldn't worry about how good I am at it. Sooner or later the survivor gets caught. You can't expect to loop forever.
@kyogul
"I'd disagree on that, reaction times are very important on both sides. I also do use windows of opportunity regularly but it's only a little help, and not a lot. And I'm sorry but it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Also, those survivor content creators are narrating their own specific chase. They are on a particular side of the map, in a particular jungle gym, with a particular map RNG and particular perks, as well as against a particular killer. You can't just copy and paste and become good at looping when there are so many variables.
I also watch DBD streamers regularly, both killer and survivor. Pretty much every day"
I see the point with the reaction time. In your clip you got downed bc you dropped a unsafe pallet to early and the killer faked one side. You need to look at the killer and then drop the pallet in the right direction. I can mess this up too but its only needed for unsafe pallets.
Otherwise your looping was decent. You used first two safe pallets correctly and stunned the killer with the unsafe third pallet. Maybe you could have made it directly to the fourth pallet without using the third, but both were unsafe anyway and at the end of the game you can waste pallets. Its normal that you get down at unsafe pallets and i cant say whether there was a safe pallet you could have reached.
Windows of oppurtunity was for me an eye opener. I did learn the maps alot quicker and understand the variations better. Its really helpful for me in unique maps like midwitch.
You look at the streamer gameplay wrong. Yh there are many killer and you cant use the same tactic against every killer and you need to know the difference. But you should ignore the map. Sure there are some special maps like midwitch. But most of the maps have the same tiles. It doesnt matter which map it is. (Not much) There are three jungly gyms (i count the variation in ormond) and they are always the same, you can identify them easily. It is enough to learn to run all tiles alone and you are better as the average red rank survivor. Linking tiles differs from match to match but you dont need the perfect route. Just know where the pallets are (windows of oppurtunity), their strength and how long the killer needs to catch up to you. And you can ignore perks. Mostly they just use one exhaustion perk. Just ignore this part for your chase.
But your chase was decent, you did not go down at the safe pallets. Many red rank survivor are masters at going down at a safe pallet. Can you explain to me how thats possible? Doesnt that mean that looping isnt hard, most players are just really bad?
Are you judging how well you do as survivor by if you escape or how many gens your team get done because if so that's the issue, I'm very adept at the game, know every title and map layout, can predict totem spawns and the likely pallet spawns and there are games where very few gens get done, I never played bad though still had really good chases and played well but it's not on me if my team suck, killer on the other hand is far harder because I order to do well you need to beat 4 people meaning its likely your point of view that you aren't doing the best just because your team was bad. You could also be lucky and verse bad survivors when playing killer, sadly I dont get that lol when I play everyone knows the loops and how to run them yet when I play survivor people won't last 5seconds even against average skilled killers always look at your skill as a solo not as a team. If there was 4 of you versing that killer how would the game of gone? For me I couldn't see the killer killing all 4 that's not cocky that's just due to the knowledge I have and how efficient I am with gens, loops etc.
If you use kindred to know whether you should go for the save, stick to a gen because someone else is going for the save or the killer is face camping. Even though you claim this is just for you, it is actually about being a better teammate. (It is why I always have it, because my game sense isn't good enough)
What you do not get is even if people are selfish that does not mean they aren't part of a team. You cannot make the game balanced around peoples egos and selfish behavior. The game is a 1v4 and even a bunch of solos are a team, if you spread out and do gens you are doing well. A SWF will always be better at efficiency, they do not need information perks, they do not need as much game sense as they simply tell each other what the deal is.
I understand your frustration OP. You're kind of at that middle point in terms of hours played where the only place you can improve is in chases and that's kind of an awkward phase. But you'll get there. Just off the top of my head here are some suggestions that could help you improve your game:
1) Watch survivors on Twitch/YouTube that are leaps and bounds ahead of you. My personal recommendation is Fungoose solely because his channel is dedicated to education. Second contender for first place is Ussylis. Others I like are Ayrun/TheJRM/Tithi. And while I'm not a fan of his personality as he's kinda hypocritical there is Tru3ta1ent. The dude does know the game and is a very competent survivor and has the most content available on YouTube.
2) Learn to string tiles together for stronger loops. When running between objectives don't just watch out for the killer. Really observe the map and see what's available for you to loop on. This is very advanced looping, but you'd be surprised at how fast the killer gets agitated and leaves you alone. Especially if you refuse to give them a pallet out of it.
3) Run a build that is complementary to looping. My personal recommendation is Sprint Burst/Iron Will/Perk of your choice/Spine Chill. Sprint Burst will ensure that you are always in position and ready to go. Dead Heard is irrelevant if Bubba catches you out of position. SB won't let that happen. It counters a lot of killers. However my play style may not be your play style and therefore you could find another build that works.
4) This is probably the most useful piece advice that I can give you: Don't waste pallets ever. If a killer is going to hit you as you reach the pallet, even if you're gonna go down, just don't throw it. Ever. If you're healthy just take the hit and zoom away from the tile. Dropping a pallet unnecessarily essentially kills that tile for survivors. Instead, punish the killer for daring to hit you before the pallet is dropped. :) That tile will be used later to waste even more time by another survivor, or possibly yourself, and that killer will regret taking the M1. TRUST ME ON THIS.
5) Knowing every killer and how to counter them is imperative. I know you touched on this briefly in your post and feel like killer has an easier time learning how to loop but this isn't true. Every killer has their own way of managing loops and they also have to learn what perks each survivor has. Every single game. Just like survivors need to know i) Who the killer is and ii) what perks they have. And if you get a Spirit with stridor just do your best. She's OP and has no counter and hopefully the devs will address this one day. :(
6) Adapt to the killer as you play. Some examples: If you got a killer that constantly tries to mindgame, they will always try to mindgame. Punish them for this and just run away from the tile. It's hilarious and I absolutely love doing it. Lol. They'll sit there in a corner trying to hide their red stain and pop out only to find you're miles away or even lose you entirely. If you got a killer that plays into the loop, then just loop. This goes for you as well though. Don't be predictable. If you fake a vault once, don't do it again immediately as the killer will expect you to fake it.
I'm not the best survivor out there, and my advice is subject to criticism, but I do really well with it. Good luck! You'll get it eventually.
I get what you mean but honestly most survivor tricks just boil down to pretending to do one thing and doing the opposite. I think you might just be overthinking it because that's all there really is to looping.
When it comes to the killer breaking LOS at gyms and etc. all you really have to do is stand at a corner or call their bluff and keep running. Not much the killer can do if you stand in a corner other than trying to hide the red stain.
Also I get what you mean about deathslinger being kinda tough to play against but he's not without his counterplay. It works very similarly to huntress, just slightly harder to pull off. Whenever he's chasing you it's good to break LOS and keep running. If you're in the open you can try zig-zagging as long as you're near a loop. If you're running in a straight line the play is usually just to continue for about 2-3 seconds then sidestep. It works the same as huntress and etc. it's just harder to pull off.
Well I have found that watching good players, along with playing has made me a competent survivor. I have no issue doing well. Just because it doesn't or didn't work for you, doesn't mean it can't work for others. Maybe you have just hit your personal skill cap with survivor.
Disagree.
Both sides can make crucial mistakes that cost them the game. And both sides can make mistakes that aren't very costly. If anything a killer has more chances to make mistakes and still recover. A survivor can make one mistake and just stay on hook or bleed on the floor for the rest of the game until they die.
Looping isn't all that hard! I thought of it the same way and thought it was impossible to do but I got some tips for you. If you lose in a match spectate survivors who are still alive and see how they loop; Espeically in SWF or in A new SWF.
One of the ways I loop is by turning my camara with the movement of my character so that my eyes are on the killer and getting ready to mindgame them. Dont be trigger happy to throw down a pallet, mindgame them by moving left and right to make your next direction unpredictable. Usually when your at the pallets, it's predictable but you never know.
Here's another piece of advice! Dont ALWAYS go for stuns, just throw down a pallet when you feel like it's time; this way you're not taking a complete risk at getting hurt while the stun is happening, which is plausible. Mainly, you should observe other players and how they loop and apply it to your own. That's the way I learned and i'm still learning new ways to loop and evade killers.
Steam says I've played this game for 2,500 hours, and I am a consistently red rank survivor who is still usually mediocre at best in chases. I can usually run some of the more generous loops (like shack and double window) decently, but I am still the guy who will sometimes get caught and hooked like 30 seconds into the match.
Sorry your excellency for needing proof to believe such a bland statement, idk in what world you live on but that's how arguing works, i quote:
"give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view."
that's straight from the dictionary. There's nothing wrong on being doubtful of others.
Specially when that person has an opinion that almost nobody shares.
A lot of looping is luck for sure, but I think some people just "get it". Like my boyfriend, we played like 2 hours of the game in total and he could loop the killer for a decent amount of time. Meanwhile, I have almost 1400 hours and I'm still downed a few seconds after I've been found. I've watched so many videos of how to get better and I just can't seem to get the hang of it. I managed to reach rank 1 though with Blendette (no, not all Blendette's are useless), so it's possible to still do well in general.