How are keys unbalanced?
There are so many threads that speak of keys being unbalanced, but I don’t get it. Survivors still have to complete generators to have it spawn early. 2 Survivors = 3 gens. 3 survivors = 4 gens.
Yet I see killers complaining all the time about it, I understand your frustration about losing points, hooks and pips. But surely is you see a survivor with a key, you have the option to alter your perk build such as Franklin’s to then ensure that they drop that item and risk losing it. I’ve easily played over 100 survivor games in the last few days, and I got a total of 1 key from chests.
It’s the exact same as killers saying “ don’t want to be slugged then use unbreakable/SG “
” use ds and unbreakable to counter tunnelling and slugging. “
Yet when survivors have an item that gives them another option to get out that has its requirements as well, that’s somehow unbalanced? (Yes gens don’t take long, but if you’re pressuring them and actually playing like a decent killer then it shouldn’t be difficult? )
No this is NOT a troll, I’m being 100% serious. I’m not looking for petty and pathetic responses, I’m trying to understand why everyone gets so salty about something that they can literally change using a perk, like everyone tells survivors to?
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We can agree to disagree, they need a change, but they are not broken.
Harder to find in chests, 80% rarer in the bloodweb, and perhaps change the mechanic of purple keys. But making keys the same as moris and completely ridding them of “prematurely ending the game” then means that there should no longer be challenges such as “ escape through the hatch “ and things like that as it’s hard enough to find 70% of the time.
I’ve never said about removing keys myself so don’t twist people’s arguments and words. I’ve clearly said that I’ve seen threads about people wanting them gone, and I’m curious to know why. A rework is perfect, but some people’s ideas are just too one sided. I agree they need a re work, yes, but what I’m also asking for is structured ideas as to what can happen.
Also, I can mention the slugging-tunnelling because I’m tired of double standards in people’s posts. It’s stupid.
in order for hatch to spawn, a certain ratio between remaining generators and alive survivors must be met.
in short, there must be one more gen repaired than people alive.
this means that each time the killer kills someone, it gets easier for the remaining survivors to escape. which means the killer is actively being punished for killing someone, while the remaining survivors get rewarded for letting their friend(s) die.
and due to the games current balance (given that it is indeed a trial with both sides being relatively equal in skill level), unless you hardtunnel someone, you should start killing people around the 3 to 4 repaired gens mark - which in return means that a single kill can mean defeat for the killer - and dont say repairing gens was a hard task.
keys not only cut the games they are in short, they also actively reward failure on the survivor side and punish success on the killer side.
additionally keys widen the gap between solo and SWF groups, as with solo players getting a coordinated key escape is almost impossible (the key guy just ends up dooming everyone else by starting EGC), while coordinated SWFs will just hardcore genrush, then scan the map with 3 or 4 ppl at the same time and then all meet up at hatch to make their group escape.
especially the later is an issue that is hardly going to be fixable, unless we force everyone to bring their own key to make their escape (and even that wouldnt fully get rid of it).
so in conclusion: keys are unhealthy for this game as they actively reward survivor failure and additionally widen the gap between solo and SWF teams.
if i was in charge of a key change, id do the following:
I’m seeing people’s ideas, but how would you personally make them more balanced?
i also want this in responses instead of “they’re unbalanced “
Oh I'd agree those challenges should be removed. But there is no question that key's shorten the game. It also adds an insane amount of pressure on killers to prioritize key carriers and even with the Franklins nerf you'd essentially have to stand on a key for a minute and a half to guarantee it's out of the game. Try to put yourself in a killers shoes. Would it be fair if there was a perk for survivors that prevented the killer from being able to mori you(prenerf) but it meant you had to be useless for a minute and a half?
Usually the first gens fly like no bussiness. The last couple of ones are the ones where it counts.
That you have to finish 3-4 gens is the easy part of the match
I don't see how it's stupid. If you are unlucky with exit gates you are pretty much doomed when the killer closes the hatch. The key circumvents that
Ofcourse when you are in swf that isn't as usefull but for solo's who don't have reliable teammates and end up in the 1v1 hatch situation often this would still be picked often
You get a third option for the end game + the benefits of key addons.
Isnt the only achievment the 4man hatch escape? It wouldnt change.
You can still use a key as last survivor when the killer closes the hatch.
If they complete all 5 gens. Not for free.
If you and your team are getting 3 genned than that is on you and your team for not thinking about it.
As a team you F up and still get a pity escape to reward you for making a mistake.
If you see your getting forced in a 3 gen than force it around.
I've been 3 gen myself because my team was just going from 1 gen onto another without thinking about splitting it up,i don't care if I don't escape because we as a team didn't play it smart.
Other times when I see the killer is trying to force a 3 gen, I try to force it around or try to get my team to force it around.
You shouldn't be rewarded for making mistakes.
I’d happily have your idea, if hatch challenges were removed from survivor challenges since there are no killer mori challenges except for daily ones.
See I don’t actually mind any of those ideas. Except if hatch is spawning when all gens or last survivor is alive. Then hatch challenges within the rift shouldn’t be a thing since the killers don’t have mori ones
I play as killer and luckily for me I’ve never had the issue with keys, hence why I’m curious hehe..
and yes they do shorten it, which technically means if moris have been changed then keys have to be too. But within reason, if moris can no longer prematurely end the game then I do agree keys shouldn’t be able to. Spawn for last survivor and 4/5 gens. Can’t decide which tbh..
Yes but the challenges would still need to be changed. I don’t see killers getting challenges for moris lmao (within the rift).
Okay, if you want to mention tunneling and slugging, you can. But I never mentioned it. In general people are going to be biased towards whatever role they favor. That's human nature.
I'm not a dev, I don't get paid to come up with how they should fix their game. Nor should they necessarily listen to the ideas of their players, anyway. Personally, I think it would be reasonable if only the survivor holding the key could use it to escape. However, there's a challenge requiring all four survivors to escape through the hatch, so that becomes problematic. Maybe a key only allows one survivor to escape unless all five gens are done, in which case then the key works as it does now keeping the hatch open for a period time.
I don't want keys gone. I love finding keys in chests. I almost never get to use them, unfortunately, because I'm a killer-magnet, not a hatch-magnet. But still, I enjoy finding keys.
actually killers have had mori challenges in the rift before. where you had to kill survivors by your hand. It is not in this rift but there is one where that is needed ALSO there was the kill everyone in the same match, because this is not easy and mori's came in very useful for that challenge but the worst part is all the dcs from seeing the hidden offering.
My personal problem is that it allows the whole team to escape. I don't care how many people are left. Even if it used in endgame it can be very gamechanging depending on the spawn location of the hatch.
Doing gens is the most easiest thing in the game and in Red ranks one hook normaly equals 2-3 gens. It's very easy for survivors to get to the point where they can use their key, especially in a SWF. And the more people the killer kills and the better he is doing the more dangerous it gets for him. Even Mori's were better designed than the current hatch mechanic. The killer suffers for playing well. Doesn't make any sense at all.
I like that mechanic idea of how keys can be used. I’d vote for that :)
I have answered this many times in different posts.
Only because the devs won't remove pity escape i would change the key like this.
Keys will not spawn in a bloodweb anymore and can only found in a chest during a match if you're lucky.
Whenever the hatch spawns you can escape if you have a key otherwise it will stay close no matter if you are the last remaining survivor.
Pressing the escape button will allow you to open the hatch after a X amount of "difficult" skill checks.
Failing a skill check or aborting the animation will force your key to be broken.
You will be allowed to keep the broken key if you escape as well as your key when going trough the gates.
Now my initial thought was first to make any key a 2 time usable item after which it will disappear from your inventory.
How ever I'm aware that that might not be possible so making it a 1 time use item would be better.
That is whenever you escape trough the hatch, you keep it by escaping trough the gates.
That would make keys way more balanced cause it forces you to think before going for the initial escape.
The killer might be close at which you will be forced to abandon the animation.
But the killer has to keep track of the gates and the hatch.
That would be my change, and personally I think it will be a good change too
I would love for those challenges to dissapear, they are such a pain in the bum.
That said i feel the key change will be a bit more complex then what i said. Based on what they said
I don’t see the point of dcing. I love a good mori, makes the games more fun lol
You’ve basically repeated what someone else has said, so I really cba to type it all again, but yes they need to rework the idea. Basically.
Your point about difficult skill checks and having your key break is a totally one sided mechanic though. Then think about backwards skillchecks with doctor, skill check shortening perks. Very silly thought tbh.
I believe that requirement was by any means necessary.
Or to put it simple wether it was by mori or plain simple by hooking and sacrificing every single survivor.
I have this challenge done I believe (have to check on this) and never mori any of them
Yayyy I’m happy I could agree and see your side! I love hearing other people’s arguments..
The number of gens that need to be completed to allow everyone still alive to escape through the Hatch with a key goes down by 1 with each death. Each Survivor that dies will effectively result in a gen automatically being completed if a non-green Key is in play. Not as OP as Moris, but absolutely not balanced.
Also, Franklin's is still a bad counter to keys. If it counted for whenever a Key was put onto the ground instead of only whenever you smacked it out of their hands, then we might have a somewhat different situation (though then that still does not help against Keys found in a chest).
Ah I am very sorry. I didn't read the other replies, just wanted to add my person opinion :)
me either.. Oni, Spirit, Legion all have GREAT mori's :) only really bland ones are wraith and trapper..... not a fan of blight's though
I just realised I sounded like such a bi* ** ! I wasn’t meant to come across that way lol, but yeah I get you. It’s just so hard to reply to so many responses and when I have to repeat myself it’s like ohhhh whyyy..
Why because your precious key will be removed?
Big deal
Yes I know his will sounds like a them vs them, but think about mori, the survivors escape and the killer didn't mori anyone, does he keep the offering?
Nope, exactly they don't.
And getting skill checks with the risk of breaking the key will be a high risk high reward.
Beside you can, I believe, attached add ons to it where it shows you where the hatch is.
So making it easier for you to find the hatch before the killer does.
I'm talking about a key out of your inventory here of course, as a lot of people stack them I presume.
Also it is an idea, just like you asked of me.
Nothing is final, there is room for change, like make it that a key isn't affected by those add ons or perks.
And hitting a reverse skill check is far from difficult.
Totally not a spirit main with devour what...?? I LOVE her mori!
Probably best to start by saying this game is based around that the first 2 gens don't matter. They are expected to be lost in EVERY game. Why should the survivors get a free win mechanic at the actual start of the game?
How? Survivors only do 2 gens, and then the last 2 escape.
Explain to me how that is fair?
Survivors screw themself in a terrible 3 gen. 3 Escape.
Explain how that is fair?
and don't give me that "So what the survivors are just supposed to lose without a chance" - yes. Yes they are. They made their mistakes. They lost the game. Why take the EFFORT and SUCCESS from the KILLER simply because the Survivors were bad.
If opening the hatch could be stopped by the killer and it had a way for the killer to know it was being opened keys would be balanced. But yeah it's pretty BS seeing someone with a key just escape in front of you with nothing you can do to stop it and even more so if it results in multiple survivors escaping.
No, it's fine. I completely understand you.
tbf i always hated the rift hatch challenges
Even if we disagree, I understand what you're experiencing. I feel gaslighted too, because I see hatch as a dumb mechanic but nobody else does.
That's a pretty good idea tbh. And, I'm personally not opposed to keys and moris. I'd just prefer them to be as strong as eachother in the live game.
I would be happier if the devs took it away entirely.
So what if I don't escape, I don't care, I play for the chases and to get all others out.
The hatch is just some pity mechanic.
Oh you and your team F'ed up?
Don't you guys worry, you can still escape trough the hatch.
Ofcourse we can't have it where 4 survivors screw up as a team and not escaping now can we?
So dumb and well undeserved
All your 3 ideas are exact to my ideas.
Though people say a key user trigger EGC on the other survivors will hurt Solo.
I said Key's main purpose is to instantly open chest (and only able to open hatch with Purple add-on), people said an item should not just used to collect another item.
Gee, i'm not sure. Something about survivors escaping after only 3 gens have been done(which takes 80 seconds between the team), or all the survivors escaping without having to do the exit gates. It is actually robbing the killer player of half the match.
I am only playing the BS killers until they get nerfed. I see them way too much currently. There is little to no answer to them since the mori nerf, except playing an OP killer.
How is an underserved escape balanced?
Imma let you figure that one out champ
The only time I accept a key escape is if the survivors get all the gens done and proceed to escape through the hatch instead of a door, at that point it really doesn't matter, they did a solid job and deserve the win.
But if I am playing well and the last guy brought a key in or happens to get one, and proceeds to get out for no reason at all, it's kind of stupid. Even more so if there is 2 and they get a free escape, just because they did 3 gens. In what world do that deserve an escape?
There are multiple scenarios where the key is more of a of a kick in the crotch and where I don't have a problem with it. But most of the time, it is an undeserved win.
Finally someone understands! A breath of fresh air!
More like someone who has never played solo's like ever lol.
Once upon a time I played solo. Now it's SWF or no survivor at all. Hatch is a band aid fix for this game's matchmaking problems, because you're never really gonna need it if you have decent teammates that get gens done and run the killer. And that's the problem, is that you consistently get matched with purple ranks who play like rank 20s, because rank matchmaking isn't a replacement for MMR.
And on top of helping solos escape because they had bad teammates, it's a bonus option for SWF because they can perfectly coordinate a key escape, leaving the killer in a lose-lose situation.
If hatch is based off of the possibility that you got bad teammates, I mean what kind of game are we playing? Do solos as well as non-solos need something like that consistently? It just needs to be fixed or gotten rid of, because I make no exaggeration when I say it is the root of many of this game's problems.
I don't really care about keys, but I'm on team "keys should only work for the person holding them."
I really invite you to watch my vids on YouTube then.
DennisvanEijk1980
You'll see I only play solo because I believe it is way more fun this way.
Don't make assumptions about someone who you don't know anything about 😉✌️
Hey how about hatch escape is only available during EGC? that sounds about fair lmao
Woukd work too. I think it would be more similar to the mori change in usefulness. So they cant skip the exit gate opening.
Personally i hate keys for 3 reasons.
1 there is no animation so if a person finds the hatch he simply escapes instantly
2 blood amber addon with prayer beads simply give no room for mindgame
3:it allows more than 1 person to escape which sometimes can be really frustrating
Yeah me and my 2 buddies should get a free escape just because we have an item. I think they should make keys only open the hatch for one person then it closes again.
Biggest Reason as a killer you wouldn't be able to alter your perks is that against stronger teams (red rank or swf purple) you need to use your perks to apply pressure and Franklin's provides very little since most survivors don't rely on items and can just go back and pick them up anyway. Killers have 4 perks versus the 16 survivors have in total which can mean the 4 you bring are the only things that can stop you from losing a match to 4 deadhard or other exhausten perks that waste the killers time and can extend chases dramatically. Also killers who tunnel or camp should definitely be punished i just feel like the devs need to find a meaningful way to do so