This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
I must preface this with...
- I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
- I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on. No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure. Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast. Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius. Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR. This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds. This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period. Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit, and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers. You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive. Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat. Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF, which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
So what is the solution? How do we fix this? I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion. Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
- Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
- Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
- Oblivious removed from Dream World.
- Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
- Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
- Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
- Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
- Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
- Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
- Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
- Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
- Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
- Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
- Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
- Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
- Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons. Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him. This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it, what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor. I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against. Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better. This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
Comments
Having strong killers isn't actually a BAD thing. If all killers had kill rates equal to Blight and Nurse, then this game would lose all sense of horror. Even though I play more Survivor than Killer, I WANT killers to be stronger so I actually have to earn my escape.
Yes, there are a few tweaks that Freddy might need, like making his snares activate after 3 seconds, rather than 1 or whatever it is. But as he stands currently, I'm really happy with him.
Ok then I would just start to actually teleport and I get the free hit.
I do this to all levels of survivors. Baby survivors are easy they will jump at the drop of a fedora. Good survivors take conditioning. I fake it a few times then actually teleport get some free hits AND my pop. Now I have 1 on a hook (because likely I saw you with BBQ), a few injured, and pressure on a gen clear across the map.
Not to mention the fact that even if you avoid him, if he has Ruin or Pop and forces you off a gen unless there was another survivor there with you that gen is regressing to 0. You avoided him but lost the gen. Good job.
So your choices are commit to the gen and get hit or lose the gen.
Agree. I have no problem with killers being strong, but very strong and very easy and also licenced...dunno if I'd nerf him that much, just some more brainpower put into snares and some teleport restrictions so every gen perk doesn't become automatically insane on him.
I got Freddy back when he was PTL and I loved him, was my first main + first killer I ever got to red ranks with but I don't even like playing as him now unless it's with pallets and a meme build (pill bottle + mad grit + agi + forced penance usually)
I actually really like the changes you proposed, but I am only asking for 2 tiny QOL changes in return.
1: Make the dream world less dark for Freddy.
2: When he teleports to a gen, show him his aura so he knows which way to turn after he teleports and remove the blood sound for more mindgames.
All this does is show the correlation between skill floor/ceiling with kill rate, regardless of pick rate.
And it shows it consistently with what the community as a whole believes as a whole to be true, too:
-Freddy has the lowest skillfloor, therefore is the most lethal across the ranks, (on average) since even someone who doesn't know any clever tricks with him, can still get good value out of them.
-Nurse has the highest skillfloor, therefore is the least lethal across the ranks, (on average) since in order to do well with her, you need to know her mechanics well, and in the case of multiple maps, there are tricks you need to know and things you must know to avoid as there are consistent deadzones, etc. (also she has game destroying bugs that probably affect a significant number of her chain blinks, which doesn't help imo) Even at red ranks, most players who pick her up aren't really Nurse mains, so naturally her stats become deflated, especially when lower ranks are included.
These stats don't show anything directly relevant to balance, but it is possible to extrapolate some educated conclusions from this.
That said: I don't think a radius decrease for Freddy's snares would hurt him; in fact it would be an interesting way to even out the main difference between his chase power and that of the clown. He doesn't just use up resources that he needs to regain over time when putting snares down, so he can just freely spam them and they're so big that survivors have no choice but to run through them or take an incredibly wide turn along the loop (while most likely still being hit by the snares' gigantic hitboxes anyway) thus conceding a hit anyway, meanwhile the clown has 4 uses of his power at base. Sure, he doesn't get slowed down anymore, thus slimming the gap between his and Freddy's power ever so slightly, but even that aspect of Freddy is still far stronger than the version the Clown has. Yet Freddy also has massive map pressure in addition to having the Clown's power without the major downside that is having to reload and truly think about his power usage.
-Also, Freddy isn't the only killer with add-ons that allow him to slow the game down. (Bubba and Huntress have add-ons that do this on successful power hits and they're not even that effective, while Freddy's version of this are) However, he is the only one that achieves this slowdown without even having to interact with the survivors.
They have said that they post those stats for fun, not for people to use as evidence or to make claims with.
I don't mind strong killers either, but Freddy just has too much and is too easy and forgiving against all but the absolute top tier survivor groups.
Freddy needs to be toned down and his affects move to his add-ons. It's just a bit ridiculous all the things he has in his base kit.
Yea I'd be fine with that. I didn't propose any QOL changes because I honestly couldn't think of any, but yea less dark DW would be something I'd want.
IDK about the teleport thing not sure if that would actually help. I like the idea of making it better somehow though. I just don't imagine an aura helping to stop that really jarring teleport effect.
I suggested the teleport change so his skill cap can be increased, he would be able to use the teleport mid chase and mind game, which is actually fun.
I mean... did you read your argument?
You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.
But if I have other evidence, including past stats...
they said to not draw conclusions using their stats, and your first evidence is other stats that they also told you not to use to draw conclusions?
face it mate, you created the discourse in this thread when you decided to use the charts the devs told you not to use(weakening your argument since it's at least partially based on faulty premises)
and putting a literal bait in the title. You use bait, you get fish... why are you acting surprised about that?
Honestly I cannot answer this. I wish I knew.
(i edited the .ini file)
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but isn't this straight-up not allowed?
Here comes the Freddy OP bandwagon
Eww, forever Freddy. I think swing chains is overrated ON ITS OWN, but with other perks and add-ons it isn't.
They could be toned back a little bit, and he quite easy, but I don't see that happening any time soon because of where Freddy was BEFORE the rework.
And at the end of the day, he's still a basic M1 killer, and I'd much rather see him than Billy everywhere again. Or Bubba. Against a Freddy, I know that they worked in a chase (no, I don't see snare-spam anywhere) but the Saw Boys just chainsaw all the time and one slight bit of latency or one slight angle correction and I'm eating a chainsaw.
To me Freddy and Doc are where killers SHOULD be, but maybe that plays into my preference for playing a more control-style killer and game.
Oh well then sure I guess.
When the data is that consistent, and when we have that extra layer, YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE that conclusions can be drawn from it. And as I've said several times now, my conclusion is based on PLAYING THE KILLER AT RANK 1. If I can't use the only data available to me to confirm my conclusion then what else would you like me to do? I could play 100 games as Freddy but then you could sit there and pick that apart too. You have to accept some data at some point, or else you are just refusing to actually discuss the issue instead of refuting it.
Fact is you can use the data to make predictions. The devs cannot sit there and say "don't make conclusions from this data" if the data is consistent as it is. THAT suggests something is actually going on. If they want to give us more data I'd be happy to alter my statements but I'm working with what they are giving us. You can sit there all day and say it means nothing which is honestly complete and utter bullshit. You know that something is up here, why you refuse to admit it is beyond me.
Slowgen perks, the fact he teleports to the survivor objective at the drop of a hat, survivors passively sleep in like almost no time at all, makes him so overpowered. 3 kills every match at rank 1. If the hatch didn't exist he would be a 4K killer every match. Waaaaay too overpowered.
He should be nerfed before they buff another killer, which btw is well above 2k per game.
I remember when I used to main old Freddy I would use this disgusting build.
Black box, slowdown add-on, ivory mori, old Dying light, ruin and remember me.
Tunnel the obsession out of the game and the game drags on forever.
my comment was not towards you.
Fair enough. I'd just be very careful with that to be safe.
You’re wasting your time. People here see “don’t use these stats and immediately draw conclusions” and think that’s the same as saying “these stats cannot be used for anything and are completely meaningless”. They don’t understand that stats require some context and a desire to ask questions instead of a black and white “high/low number bad”. I mean look at how many people are saying the stats are garbage because Pig has a high kill rate, completely ignoring that there are other factors that affect kill rate besides their personal tier list.
For what it’s worth I agree, Freddy’s kit is too bloated and he deserves some small changes. Having a strong, mechanically simple killer is not a bad thing but he just has a little bit too much going for him.
No Black Box gives it away. Against a good rank 1 SWF they will know what you are doing and body you. I had a group do this to me, they protected the guy all game while pounding gens.
The real build was Dying Light, Ruin, Haunted Grounds, PWYF, Class Photo, Z Block, and ivory. You use Class Photo to find the obsession quickly and get everyone asleep if possible. Z Block makes you look like base kit Freddy. Once you find the obsession, catch them. PWYF and Haunted will make it easier, Ruin buys you some time to do it. Once they are hook leave so they get saved, then tunnel and mori them. Once they are dead the game is over, everyone will always be asleep thanks to Class Photo and it will take a solid 4 minutes to solo a gen. Game. Over. I never lost a game with this build. Closest anyone ever got was one group go to 1 gen left, but it was a 3 gen. I didn't have a mori that game, but generally speaking you didn't even need it. As long as you got the hook early enough you could camp them.
Okay thank you. Good to know I'm not crazy. Someone else sees it too!
I feel bad for you OP, here's a picture of a puppy.
I mean, I'm just gonna quote Peanits here (from an older post, to be fair):
So just to reiterate one last time, I really would not recommend drawing any conclusions from these stats. These are averages, not specific and incredibly detailed data that you should draw any conclusions from.
Not "wouldn't recommend solely use these to bolster your argument" or "make sure you're not only relying on these stats." Straight-up "wouldn't recommend drawing conclusions."
He explained in very clear words what you are doing, and then you do it again.
"Do not draw conclusions" =/= "data is completely meaningless"
It's not meaningless, but it is unreliable. That's why they recommend not drawing conclusions.
all I see from that data is that people play freedy and win more often than with other killers.
it doesn't say why, it doesn't say how.
I could easily use the same chart to say freddy has a very low skill floor and therefore more people are able to play him well, leading to more kills on average.
and I could use nurse to demonstrate the opposite. her kills are the lowest because she has the highest skill floor in the game and therefore less people are able to play her well, leading to less kills on average.
just because you say "this proves what I said" it doesn't mean it actually proves what you said. You are just looking for a way for it to fit the conclusion you already have
not exactly the quote I was looking for, but it gets the idea across.
You already think freddy is op, so you are looking at things only in a way that shows he's op. instead of looking at what things actually are and adapting your conclusion accordingly.
This is exactly what I was talking about with my comment, thank you for proving my point.
But if the data is unreliable, then you SHOULDN'T use it. It's not good data. It's not WORTHLESS, but it by itself without the context of multiple factors is not useful.
Took a bit longer than I expected, but we have our first thread from bad or entitled Survivors using the stats to whine about a Killer.
There’s way too many variables to take into account for these stats to mean something. The devs even told us not to use them lol.
The fact that it's a very broad and general set of stats with no context is what makes it not useful to draw meaningful information from. BHVR knows this, and they're okay with this because they're only putting out that information just for funsies. I don't think it's a fair conclusion to come to without looking at more detailed and specific information that BHVR has access to.
Except I had data in form of experiences. Again you take a comment out of context. Holmes is saying don't just go on nothing. If you have SOMETHING, whatever that something is, you can consider that data. My personal experiences playing as and against the killer can be seen as data. While I didn't exactly record the details of every single game, the fact is I am most consistent with Freddy and most oppressive with Freddy (and feel the most oppressed consistently playing against Freddy) compared to every single other killer suggests something. That something is supported by not 1, but 2 data reveals by the developers, the first of which included more detail stats. When looked at as a whole, I was able to identify exactly what makes him so good and articulate that in the OP, then provide clear and simple solutions.
I mean, people that hate Spirit can't articulate their argument as well as I did in the OP. They say very vague things about it, don't have a clue what the solution could be (maybe because they have a hard time identifying the actual problem), and on top of that the data doesn't support it either. So it's faulty all around.
My OP is not that at all. I have a solid well formulated points about Freddy, and while I only posted the recent data dump I could go back and get the previous ones (and I probably should... and may).
You are intentionally strawmaning my argument so you don't have to admit Freddy is too strong and needs a change. I can and will use these charts to support my claims because that's how this ######### works.
Again "do not draw conclusions" =/= "data is meaningless".
Aren't anecdotal accounts also not reliable?
Why would you assume that it’s “bad data”, or unreliable? Do you know what bad data is? Something being an average and therefore a poor candidate for making statements about the state of the game is not the same as “bad data”. This is exactly what I was talking about, people who have no idea how data is actually analysed saying “but you can’t use this data, it’s bad!” No, it’s not. Its usefulness is limited but that’s not the same as being useless.
Edit: I see that you edited your comment while I was writing my reply, so the wording is different but my point stands.
The data isn't unreliable though. Unreliable data means the data itself was not clear.
Whenever i start a game with freddy. i auto dc.
Because they themselves have said that. They have said that those numbers are not taking into account many different factors and do not paint a clear picture of things. It's not good data with regards to drawing conclusions about balance because it is not showing why things are the way they are. Only that they are what they are.
But the data is not clear. It doesn't give any information at all about why the numbers may be what they are.
They have never said that their data is unreliable, they specifically said that it’s an average and therefore not good for drawing conclusions about the state of game balance from. Those are not the same thing.
In any case I’m gonna bow out of this conversation, it’s only going to frustrate me. Have a good one.
"not good for drawing conclusions about the state of game balance from"
This is pretty much what I mean when I say "not good" and "unreliable."
I don't know.
I mean, it'd be really strenuous on my keyboard to link to the devs stating not to use the stats to draw conclusions, note that the killers in the upper tier are generally ones that people find 'unfun'/suicide against, and/or note that anecdotal evidence of playing in the red ranks does not mean anything to anyone. But hey, Nurse worst, amirite?
Pretty hard to argue against nothing :)
Freddy is just easy to use at full potential and that's it. Compared to some other viable killers at best performance he's pretty bad.
He's only actually strong when uses forever build, but otherwise he can't finish chases fast enough or pressure survivors heavy enough to "dictate" his pace of the game. In the end he's just an m1 killer who can end loops slightly faster, who can tp to gens and who can slightly passively slowdown survivors.
If survivors know what to do and don't ######### around, he can be defeated pretty easily by doing gens and ignoring dream state. He can't snowball, he lacks instadown so chases last pretty long, his abilities don't spread damage or anything. Just do gens and drop pallets earlier. If he has noed - let him facecamp that one survivor and leave, you've won anyway.
Be careful of these stats? Did they post all the things that go into them? No one would call pig the #2 killer. These generic numbers really don't help provide good details.
is Freddy Good? Sure, but one chart doesn't paint the whole picture.
What are your expecations when you go in a match? I feel like some/many survivors get upset if not 100% of players get away, so I don't know if your mad you lost a player or two vs a Freddy player once or twice, and now want him nerfed, or if your SWF groups get stomped on constantly by Freddy.
Freddy is only op to stupid survivors who can't adapt to a game and have to loop every single tile generally never have a problem with Freddy also hes literally freddy Kruger sounds to me like you don't want one of the coolest horror icons done justice in the game. Sounds like you want a m1 like killer with a Freddy skin
omg
If you don't think Pig (or as we call her in the biz, Mini-Fred) is not worthy of that title with Stealth !!!BT DENIAL!!!, a Secondary Attack, and Slowdown (with add-ons that let you add EXTRA SLOWDOWN OPPORTUNITIES THAT CAN BE !!!FATAL!!! and EXTRA BOXES FOR JUST EXISTING ON THE MAP!!!), let me tell you about my games as killer and survivor in the red ranks :3
And that's what happens when someone takes the stats seriously and doesn't think about WHY he has such a high kill rate compared to other strong killers.
Nurse weak, needs buff.
Now was that so hard to actually put up a discussion?
Nope.
I do very much agree with a lot of your points, and although I don't agree with the stats either you did use your experience to back yourself up which I can relate to. I'm a red rank survivor and killer and often play both sides survivor sometimes with a friend or two and Freddy for me both sides is unfun and annoying. On the survivor side he is a pub stomper, without a coordinated team or very smart survivors( something you will rarely find solo or duo queuing) you're gonna lose. Unless you have a couple thousand hours, are a god looper, or get lucky rng a Freddy will get you sooner than later as he can mindlessly place bloodpools and shut down most loops. On top of that with most perks he can then apply pressure almost instantly after downing you and start regressing gens. On the killer side you just place bloodpools wherever keep them asleep and keep fake teleporting to gens and boom tons of pressure with almost no skill required. A bad Freddy will win a lot of matches, a decent one will win most, and a great Freddy will win everything except the most hardcore teams. I think that you're suggested changes nerf him a little too hard as it changes him a lot but he definitely needs some tweaks. I never play with addons so I can't speak on that but I can say that his bloodpools need to be tweaked so that they require more thinking and you shouldn't auto fall asleep if you get woken by a clock or at the start of the match making him have to hit you at least once. Having strong killers is great for the game as some killers are at the mercy of survivors rather than the other way around which sucks, but having a killer be strong with almost no effort required is just a shame and takes a lot of fun aspects out of the game like learning the character and having close games that make your heart race.
Also on a quick side note if all you have to say the the discussion is about the op's relation to stats why say anything? He referenced it a couple times in his points, and prefaced it with his own experience. It's not helpful to the discussion at all if all you do is critique one point over and over that the op already brought up in multiple other replies, or at least bring it up as a point in a counter argument but don't only talk about it and that's the whole comment.